Lithium-Ion (18650 cells) versus Lipo -- which is best? 

218 grams for people in Murica it's equivalent for about 3 yards :D Nice burn

love the grams to yards conversion!!!

We have 4S 8800mA Li-Po packs and 4S 15000mA Li-Ion Packs. They weigh very close to one another. In our survey fixed wing, (when the Li-Po's were still good) they gave us around 35min with the whole setup running. With the Li-Ions, we get around 55min-1hr flight time. The only issue is because our model is heavy, on warm days with no wind, the Li-Ions tend to not give enough power for thrust for take-offs. We also use a catapult system to get it in the air, as it's a pusher and got a big prop.

So happy to see a direct comparison. I love you Bruce! Will be jumping on that Patreon as soon as I can!

amazing overview, fun to watch. love the application story of rc flight plane

Samsung 20700 come in at 69g: 3000mah, 30amp continuous! 🤯 Really tempted to do a 2s, low kv, Mini long range Tricopter in future. 😆 Small body, long arms, low kv, big props, sounds like a long range dream. 😁

Can't wait to see the results Bruce, this looks interesting.

Interesting video on these two battery types. Thanks for sharing.

Thank you for making this video

A website I would recommend is Nkon, I paid 180€ for 50 cells, Sanyos are really good. They are 30A 3Ah cells. Now I'm waiting on my spot welder to make my own batteries

Thx for sharing! 2 questions : in your experience: whats a save margin to fly with for lipo and lions ? atm i stop my lipos at 3.6 but at home they have 3.8…so i guess 3.4 under load would be okay ? or even less ? Thanks in advance

Hello. I’m trying to decide what type of battery pack would provide the longest life at the smallest size between 2 to 6 continuous amps. Any input is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

I am confused you have 3x 3000mAh batteries shouldn't you be referring to them as 9000mAh or are you connecting them in parallel to achieve 60A?

Love this! Battery build video plz.

How can you determine the Mah of a battery (li-ion) if there are no markings on the cell if possible?

wiring the pack is the tough part, can be soldered but spot welding is far better way to go, see vids on electric bike pack building

if we are making a pack out of 18650s then how to calculate the output c rating

How are the Samsung batteries? I can't seem to find the LG's in stock anywhere that seem to be real LG batteries and not the knock off. I'm in the US. I don't know about other countries, but the Sony battery that you mentioned in one of your videos I have found.Lg is not in stock.I'm very interested in making some of these packs.

Good day are those Li-io batteries rechargeable?

Actually LG recommends charging them to the same voltage as a lipo and also use a lipo settings on your charger not lithium ion. Take a look at the efest 18 650 40a 3900mah that's what I'm using on my AXN it screams! But I'm glad you are playing with these 18650 cells really looking forward to learn more about them. And maybe a simple DIY supercapacitor spot welder I put the batteries together if anybody can make one super easy to use yocan mr. Bruce 😈

What if you use 21700 cells instead of 18650?

Those HG2's are a great choice. I've got loads originally meant for vaporizers, but damn if they don't put out the current!

what was the charge time diferance?

Hi Bruce, just wondering if cell phone batteries can be used for light weight models?

You got something confused there I think. One of the three Liion Cells has got 3000mAh, so 9000 combined. And you sure that this big of a LiPo battery only got 2600mAh?

Cycle time difference ?

Hi Bruce, great intel as always. Is there any chance you could explain discharge rating? A single Li-on battery is good for 20A discharge, are you still limited to 20A discharge when you connect the cells in series or parallel. I'm thinking about making a 6S but need max discharge of 60A. Would 6S 2P work? Thanks again mate and keep up the great work.

You know they have better batteries now like the Molicel P26A 18650 with 2600mAh pumping 35A continuous!

Thanks!

dumb question but can you use these cells with any esc that is meant for a Normal Lipo pack as Long as to use the correct voltage.?

Sony VTC4 IMR 18650 High Drain Flat top (2100mAh, 30A), less mAh but you can use it at 30A and a 136gr for 3 of them (+ the cable)

You tab welding or soldering the cells?

Where'd you buy the Li-Ion's from?

will 2 sony or lg or samsung 18650's FIT into where a standard 3.7 1300mah lipo pack fits on say a 4x4 truck / buggy or ???

That end card - "Model aviation is not a crime!" Sad to think people would ever think that it is.

are they "protected" ?

$11 for a piece of LG cell is quite expensive.

Can i charge lithium ions with snps

Do they catch fire in the same way as lipo ?

I made me some 4S1P 3000mAh batteries for my LR quad. With the right props I'm getting up to 14 minutes flight time. I'm really impressed to get this with a 5" and 2205 motors with 2300KV when everybody is going to 7" and low KV. Here a 12:35 flight ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Mx6imo8B5iA.html

Please please please please please do a battery build video please

"SwellPro," probably not the best name someone came up with for a LiPo brand-name...lol.

Hope you are posting a battery build video 👍

Omg 😂 equivalent of 3 yards!!! 🤣🤣🤣 You made my day!

Bruce you are king of reviewers! You make the hobby fun and informative! Jumper t16 and nirvana transmitter moved the 18650 now I see why! Thanks mate!

Hi Bruce, Something I have also been testing recently. My application is long range quadcopters. Amp draw is very low, 10-15A. I use Sony VTC6 30A 3120 cells. I did some back to back testing with an only 5200 multistar vs a 4s2p ‘6240’mah pack. Running down to 80% discharge. I found the most interesting and very important fact is that although the liion has more capacity per gram, as they run to a lower voltage, their mid voltage is much lower than a lipo, there for I found the nearly identical weight packs, that more amps were used from the liion to keep the craft in there air. I was getting 20+ min flight times from both, however significantly more cumulative distance with the lower capacity lipo. I have found that the liion gets hot in flight, and their capacity drops with say 10A vs the lipo that will delivery their 80% discharge with much higher volts at the end. I also tried a 6s1p 3120 liion. Vs a newer turnigy 5200 4s vs the multistar 4s 5200This is where the test results changed a lot as realised the multistar was very tired, max cumulatively was 20km to a 80% in 22 mins(but voltage dropped off) The turnigy was doing 20km in 18 mins to 80% & still lots of volts. The 6s max cumulatively was 16km to a complete discharge where it drops! From now I’m only using lipos & the liion remains fantastic field charging batts

i'm in the process of building David Windestal's long range tricopter, which people claim can get a 40 minute flight off a 5200 3s, and up to an hour if you stack two batteries together. i'm really curious to try on this a 3s 6 battery 18650 to see what crazy flight times are possible

Good for long duration flying for sure not for general RC flying use and can't be charged as fast. Lifepo4 a123 cells used to be good for fast charging and high drain but heavy for same capacity. Lipo is unfortunately still the best option generally but I can't wait to see the back of them for safely reasons.

I know its been 5 years since your post this educational video but @ 2.04 , thats funny 😂😂....218grams=3 yards

The biggest advantage of the LiPo batteries is that they can be cycled a lot more times than Li Ion batteries...

So I have to say I'm using 18650s in my vape every day and my Fpv Glider got a 6000mah pack made from LG Hg2 in 3s2p config. It's really great for lower current applications that need long runtimes

Lmao yards conversion haha people are probably so confused and think you was being serious

Been using 18650 and 21700/20700 batteries on quads for the last 12 months and will never go back to foil cells. The Sanyo UR18650 range (now owned by Panasonic) are a good cell that I mainly use and can output 30A constant and cost just £2.50 each!

Li-Ion tend to be used in low-impact environments, as the electrolyte is more liquid than gel (and also why the stronger casing). Lithium is highly reactive (read combustable) and a case breach is likely catastrophic to a model. Should be great for a cruise wing type model as the discharge rating is usually not as high as Li-Po, but for a raw power machine (like a quad or a heli), Li-ion would not be ideal. Interested to see how this turns out.

The low voltage cutoff of most ESC's gives problems with using 18650 cells, most of my HK esc i can't disable it, so started using bl heli esc's for fpv planes with mixed results.

equivalent to 3 yards, Brilliant Bruce (hit those no metric "fools" hard).. I used to fly on A123 cells, they packed a punch (when lipos only had 2C change capability, they were amazing fast charge)

Are there any chemical constraints for lithium-ion unable to provide the same or better current discharge as lipo? (on similar weights proportion to the ones demonstrated)

These LG HG2 batteries are quite good. I used them recently and my flight duration is doubled compared to same weight LIPO. And I bench tested the discharge current also. These batteries hold the voltage even if running up to 10A for about 20-30 seconds, which is good for take off. And if you cruise at 4-5Amps, the batteries will be very happy to run for a very long duration. I hope very soon we should be getting professionally built Li-ion packs. DIY is a fun too! Hats off for the video.

I've been using the Sony VTC6's (4s2p) in my 7" long range quad with great results, they will deliver 60A+ if you need it but I mostly cruise around at about 10-15A for 20+min flights. Be careful where you get then though, plenty of dodgy sellers out there..

What about the charge, discharge cycles between the two types? I think li-ion can endure many more cycles.

I believe EACH of the 18650 cells you have is 3000 mAh so you were not comparing the same thing by saying that the lipo has 2200 mAh and the THREE Li-ion cells together "are about the same (mAh)". So the 150g for the 3 Li-ions represent 9000mAh and the 218g represents 2200mAh for the Lipo.

You'd want a low dropout BEC using li-ion 2S, but if the label current rating on those cells is anywhere close accurate, those look like the way to go for an endurance model. I was looking at a 2S pack and 10A motor controller for a sub-250g model.

Where did you get them..? So many fake ones out there it is difficult to know what one is actually buying until after they arrive.

Yo the one on the left looks mad familiar lol

You did a Swell job explaining that, but there is no way i'd buy a SWELL battery.

Nice overview. I might add "SwellPro" is not a great name for a Lipo pack. - I had to look twice to see if you made the label, but it looks legit. Better then "SwellFire" or "Boom & Burn", maybe, but still iffy.

The newest power banks have Li-polymer more dangerous

I know a lot of people have said this but swellpro it a terrible name! Definitely don’t buy trust fires or you will get real fires 🔥 The good brand 18650’s are very reliable!

Lipo is safer. They almost *never* burst into flames even punctured, unlike lithium-ion. They are also lighter (in 2022) and have the same amount of cycles. In 2022, they are also much cheaper.

Oh great SwellPro battery and my name is Bad Dragon Rape or how about TrustFIRE or UltraFIRE and they are about as safe as a fire 218 grams is...what about yards?!

Brownies (LG HG2) are great but pinkies(Samsung 30Q) is a little better. IMR is who I buy from. Mooch does excellent testing of these batteries.

Isn't the 3s pack 2600mah per cell? Not the whole pack? One of those cells are still 2600mah aren't they? The whole point of lipo was largely due to its lighter weight for RC

@rcmodelreviews Bruce, you might want to update this video or add a appropriate annotation or comment on top of it: The power (Wh) to weight ratio is not that different as you suggest. Your quick initial weight and power mental calculation is off (due to real voltage under load. You better do proper weight to charge capacity (Wh) calculations, voltage is not a good measure). The difference (with good LiPos) is at most 20%. Given that 18650 are harder to make as a pack, where as Lipo is already done for you, I would say it's not worth it. Remember, the only real comparation is on the energy density (energy stored/mass). All other measures, weight, voltage, as you did are just misleading and kind of intuitive (in the wrong way) for most of us: lighter weight -> longer flight times. Which is wrong. (Yes, I ignore the max current output, assume it's enough for what you want to fly). The only real measure is how much energy can be delivered over time for the same mass. Hence, in real life, LiIon - LiPo the difference is max 20% (for LiIon cells that are usable for our hobbies: can deliver let's say at least 5C discharge). Here is a quick reference already calculated: i.stack.imgur.com/Z9Flb.jpg

for experiece exchange i can just suggest my man Snomwan (ru-vid.com/show-UCJSzeUvPP3527TKCDMgmbIg ). He is a master in Li-Ion pack long range flying :)

I did some research for my own nerdy pleasure: Your 18650s will do 10.25Wh each with a 1 hour discharge [ batterybro.com/blogs/18650-wholesale-battery-reviews/57179459-lg-hg2-review-20a-3000mah ]. Also, they are 228 Wh/kG, reasonable for 20A capable L-ion cells. Check out NKON (eu.nkon.nl), their cells are typically 3-4 Euros per (I've used them in the past - they're very good and they can even tag the cells). I bought the popular Samsung INR18650-35E 3450mAh - 10A cells from them, my testing confirms the datasheet's claim of 250Wh/kG. These are great for 1 hour flights. Your 3S 2.6Ah LiPo pack is 28.9Wh, which is 132Wh/kG (about average for LiPo).

Would it be possible to mix the batteries in the pack with an additional control circuit. i.e when running at low current draw use the li-ion, but when current draw is high switch to lipo for a burst?

Sir, I think you converted that wrongly: 218g is 3 yards and one see-saw. :b One question: which one is safer? I'm getting batteries for an Yamaha WX5 and I don't want my controller to catch on fire. The WX5 is a wind Midi controller manufactured from 1999 to 2017 and discontinued - no new ones available - and it requires 1.5V cells. I found both li-po and li-ion 1.5V cells but the li-po ones are easier to find here in Brazil. I also would like to know if I can keep them inside the instrument while not using it or if I should remove them. Thanks for your patience! Nice video!

Mate, I love you to death, but you should really do your tests and then do the talking. You really do not represent the L-ION batteries very well. The fact is that the LIPO manufacturers ALL LIE about their C values. They claim 60 and 90 C (which is over 260 Amps in many cases) coming through a 60 Amp plug. If people actually test these high C value LIPO's they would see that they do not put out the advertised amperage.The fact is that high Amp LIIONs kill LIPO batteries in real world tests every time. Which is why EVERY high quality tool, cell phone, laptop, car and "YES" professional drones use LIION batteries EXCLUSIVELY. Can't wait for your tests. You'll see what I mean. I love your channels though. You are the best. Cheers

Had a play a while ago with 18650 and a 4inch. Went ok.. couldnt really punch it. 5 inch... no chance. But 3 inch is looking like a sweet spot for a high capacity li ion 4 - 6s packs. I'll be doing this soon. Waiting on bits. :)

Hi, here are some test I have done with 18650 us18650vtc5a cells with max of 35A discharge current per cell. The battery pack is 8x18650 in 4s config. Here are most boring test: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Q97nqpEerXw.html then I started use higer discharge current 30A and 40A - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-EN6Tpr9QFrM.html , ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-sZ_UIPuPvug.html . I also done a 50-60A continues discharge test but it is not uploaded to YT - this test perform very well and I very suprised how these batteries perform.

Chinese battery Liitokala its the best for high discharge li ion.Its 21700 ,4000 mah and 40 amp continuous discharge. Im making a 8000 mah battery ,3s/2p thats lighter than a 5000 mah lipo.

Brucie baby! do us all a favor and include not only flight time, but also flight distance in your test. Perhaps the lipo will give you greater distance with less flight time because of the ability to run wide open throttle, where as the other will give you longer flight times at low throttle

Reason why li ion batteries are more energy dence is cause they always under compression comapred to lipos soft packs 😊

Now let's see how long it takes to actually follow up. :/

Hey man you are getting ripped off. No 18650 should be 12€ a cell. You can find them for 3-4 per cell and even down to 2 per cell if you buy in bulk

Really excited to see how your testing turns out.

You Can use bms from battery pack on ebike I bet 82 volt battery 6 ah pack vil destroy it haha 😂 to much power

A couple years back I built a camera quad that I used 18650 cells in. It was purely as an experiment to see if it would work. I built it to only sip power, but worked out that at full throttle it might be a little too close to the amp limit for my liking with 3S2P (Like Li-Po's, The easier a time you give them, The more cycles you get before they're scrap), So went with 3S3P instaid. As I also vape, and already have a few 4 cell Li-Ion chargers on hand, I decided not to solder up a bloody great pack, But got some battery holders instead. I'd built the quad to take 4S so I used three 4 cell holders and wired each to hold either 4 cells in series, Or 3 cells and a dummy "Pass through" cell. It flew pretty well on 3S so I never actually got around to trying it on 4s in the end. Flight times were......... Longer than I could concentrate on flying in one stretch ! But I estimated it would be somewhere around 25 minutes if I wasn't pushing it too hard. In the end, for convenience I converting it to run with the stack of 5000 3s Li-Po packs I bought for a larger folding Y6 I built as its replacment, Then not long after that, as it was now surplus to requirements a friend bought it off me. As an experiment it was pretty good, But at around £60 for the 9 cells it was cheaper to just use budget Li-Po's as it didn't need a high C pack.

Do Europeans not know Americans are also taught metric in school? we understand both systems, it just sounds better to use imperial in conversation.

You weighted the prtective wrapping of the Lipo bit didnt consider what the setup will be with the lithium ion cell battery would be. That alone its not scientific enough already.

@4:37 - You need to be consistent. Each 18650 is rated for 20Amp Continuous. Wiring them to maintain the 3000mAh you are referencing means a 60Amp CDR and a 90Amp Pulse (30Amp @

218 g, for you Americans thats about, idk... 3 yards. Hahahaha gold!!

Lion works efficiently for RC planes with higher cell counts and geared BL motor with big prop.

hello,which batteries do you think would be better in jump starters for auto's?

Pro tip: You can get these li ion batteries for free in computer reapir shops, these are the type of batteries used in laptop batteries. reapir shops are used to throw them away

Great overview - thanks! Any update on using this in a long range quad?

Very interested in your battery making videos it would be awesome to see you make some more!

Lipo packs more punch but Li-Ion has a longer life span ?!?!

Should make a hybrid battery with a small lipo and big lion pack

3000mAh per cell => 3 individual cells(3*45g) = 9000 mAh! Isn't it?