Joe and fran's story is so heartbreaking. I'm only a few minutes in. My heart does go out to those who joined as adults then woke decades later, but whose children were born in and remain in. That's got to be heart-wrenching. Much love to you both and I'm just glad that you are out together.
yes, very dad to shun your elderly parents because they have a difference of opinion. I am glad that God doesn't shun us when we sin or disobey. I always think of King David who did the worst things. God did not shun him.
@@Addigalia king David killed people just like this guy. I respect your belief but unfortunately your belief dictates that you hero worship people who would have been put in jail for life if they did what they did in a modern society like the one we live in now
@@AddigaliaYes, exactly. And they always were bringing up the story of the prodigal son. The father (who they said represented Jehovah) certainly didn't shun his son when he returned with a contrite spirit. The dad threw him a party!
I can't think of anything worse than being shunned by your own kids. When Fran & Joe joined in the 70s JWs weren't forced to shun family. That changed when Ray Franz was DF. They still won't DF for associating with close DF family but they'll remove your titles elder/pioneer which Frans kids are & treat you as bad associates in some cases. Again, some get away with it, depending on things like culture, how rich you are & how desperate they are for elders or publishers.
99.9% of people harmed by this cult turn their pain inward manifesting as depression, social anxiety, mental illness, limited potential, self harm and suicide. 0.01 percent maybe turn it outwards and lash back at the org. Hurt people hurt people… is a fact of life. Frankly, my sympathy and concern is with the 99%.
Joe and Fran, you are very strong and brave! Stay strong, JW did the same to my wife and I. We know what you are going through, we are with you. What we cannot understand is the break with your children. Thankfully our children were small enough that they are out with us so our hearts bleed for you and your family. Stay strong in your convictions.
When I started studying I was interested only in learning about jehovah 50 years later I realised he isn't there its just a business with the help of your programs and raymond franze it's helped me to break free thank-you to both of you jt for being honest and respectfull
Strange how some people blame God for the actions of a few corrupt humans! Jesus told in advance how the ‘Faithful’ slave would transform into the ‘Evil’ slave. It’s all in the same verse, speaking of ‘one’ slave, not two! Sadly, You became a follower of men, rather than a follower of God, and now you don’t believe He exists??? Forgive me, but, as an xJW I can’t comprehend your reasoning! So many like you out there makes me wonder if you ever searched for truth? I’m happy to have studied the Bible and learned so many beneficial things, Now, I’m content to just get on with my life, vowing NEVER to join ANY religious organisation again!
This is great! I love Fran and Joe. They are such an inspiration. My husband and I have also loss our adult children and 5 grandchildren after we left a year and a half ago.
I left the JW organization twenty years ago. And I've never looked back. I am so glad I never pushed my kids to get baptized. I was indoctrinated in and stayed in for seven years. I have always seen this coming.
I'm living it, and with the help and strength from Jesus Christ, it is a life with peace, love, and finally being in a safe place. Those men have no power over me. It's gonna be okay hunny. ❤
@@Joeandfran Our parents did and so did we when raising our kids but thankfully when we left our kids left with us .. But when "in" we always were made to feel as if we weren't good parents to our children because we didn't harm them with the bible .. Also we saw elders + their wives so zealous but had no kids at the hall with them because they all "fell away" .. Hindsight
The saddest part of this whole situation is that, had the roles been reversed and an "apostate" would've committed this bombing. The organization would've given a "Special" talk titled, "What happens when you leave Jehovah" , yet our community of "Ex- Jehovah's" are showing so much love and compassion for the brothers and sisters.
I appreciate that you guys reiterate that this discussion is NOT a justification for what he did. You can't say it enough. But, IT IS important to understand what influences a peron' to behave, react, or problem solve the way they do. Environment is huge! And, sadly, worldly people underestimate what it means to be a Jehovah's Witness. What it IS. It runs deep. And it sucks.
Really moved by Fran and Joe's experiences. I hope your children escape the cult, and that you are once again reunited. Thank you for sharing your story.
Thanks. I get it now! As a long time critical thinker, even for decades within the JW organization, it pisses me off when I see the Society asking the rank and file not to look at other sources when examining the meaning of a scriptural account. They want to control all of the information flowing into the mind of the average witness, completely defying the host of scriptures encouraging us to "use our powers of reason", such as Romans 12: 1; and other texts. But I really think they completely ignore the sense of what the inspired writer Solomon wrote at Proverbs 2: 10-12: .."When wisdom enters your heart and knowledge itself enters your very soul, THINKING ABILITY ITSELF WILL GUARD OVER YOU, and discernment itself will safeguard you, to deliver you..........from the man speaking perverse things, ......and from those whose paths are devious." Sounds just like our modern day "governing body" of JW's doesn't it???😄😉 @@janellegonzalez9863
Just like like the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints "heard from God again" and changed their stance in 1978 concerning blacks in the priesthood after an abundance of outside pressure, the WTBTS will get "New Light again" about the unbiblical & atrocious way they practice shunning when enough outside pressure moves them.
GRIEF... just like when you lose a loved one, you go through 5 stages of grief....denial, ANGER, bargaining, DEPRESSION, acceptance....when you leave the org and LOSE all your friends and family, you also go through these stages of grief due to the trauma that ensues from being shunned ( IT IS especially difficult when you have done nothing morally wrong, but you are only seeking TRUTH and your conscience is such that you simply cannot stay in the org) .. Not making excuses at all for the violence that this man engaged in, but knowing this about grief helps us to understand why he may have engaged in this behavior.. people do extreme things when they are hurting very deeply and do not seek help to process through the trauma.. thank you for this video .. Joe and Fran, i just cannot imagine the pain you are living with! My heart goes out to you.. Can i adopt you as part of my family? No papers or red tape necessary.. I LOVE you and want you in my family..YOU ARE BEAUTIFUL people..even listening to your reason for your initial interest in JW.. for learning the bible. bringing up your family with good values and being charitable..WOW.. your children are missing out on so much ..they have chosen a man made org (Not God) over you.. i shall pray for all of you in deepest earnest.. please reach out to me at any time.. we live in East TN, not sure where you live but would love to share time with you all.. My husband's sisters and their families are shunning us for leaving out of good conscience.. and it is nearly unbearable, but you are dealing with something far more difficult.. love to all
I ENCOURAGE EVERYONE TO GET THEIR HANDS ON THE "SHEPHERDING THE FLOCK" BOOK. I'VE CTUALLY READ THE 1st EDITION OF THIS BOOK PRIOR TO THE 2010 REVISION. BLEW MY MIND!! I REALLY HAD TO GET AWAY FROM THIS RELIGION, AFTER THAT!
@@NoJediMindTrickwhere do you think we could find a copy. I’m researching , I am searching! I need confirmation that I have not left my family for nothing. It has been 8 years of this nonsense of being shunned and I’ve known this isn’t the truth but I haven’t put the work in for myself. I was just so emotionally and mentally exhausted that I just put it to the back. I’m ready now to put the research in.
Thanks for posting this video I had not heard about this tradegy. I'm disassociated and two men came to my door last Sunday trying to get me to come back and left me a brochure return to Jehovah. I told them I never left God, but left a twisted sick cult!
Oh my goodness. This is exactly my experience. I got told "you had such a good relationship with Jehovah, he wants you to come back to him" to that I say " I never left him, my relationship with him and with Christ has never been stronger, I just left you all"
This is so interesting, Like Franz said in his interview " These are folks with very good intentions but are fed the wrong info!!" I have had JW friends for 60 years, such good sincere folks but somehow God always kept the "Doubt" in my mind! What finally put the frosting on the cake for me was watching a mother "Shunning " her young son who had decided it wasn't for him.
Without the support of the exJW community how many more would have SNAPPED by killing themselves or others out of despair to anger for few that can kill many?
I don't even see how anyone in this modern day of 2023 can actually believe their doctrine. It is so basic and tedious and boring it's literally written for dummies. I find it insulting. It is insulting to my intelligence. Their literature, their sermons. Everything about them that it amazes me how anybody falls for it
I love the level headed, calm and respectful demeanor of your interviews. Thank you for your respectful advocacy. Hugs to Joe and Fran. I’m sorry what your dealing with. As far as the new halls, They are building halls with a more generic structure so they can sell them in the future. This is still a real estate organization.
Im absolutely disgusted That the children. Are so unable to think for themselves. And are so utterly brainwashed. I was raised at Jehovah's witness. They never believed say were. True church. There was too much as a child growing up in the 70s that I could see. I'm 50 for now. I never got baptized. The Holy Spirit was always leading me away. It makes me so disgusted to know that this young family of brothers sisters. Whoever they are ostracizing their parents. My mother is still a witness. She became one the month that was born December 1968. I can tell you. It has robbed of so much in her life. End me and my children because it's taken. Most of my life to get my s*** together.
Yes! The ARC was so eye-opening! Witnesses in Malawi have died, and many others for their faith, but the gb lie before those put in place by God according to the Bible. Why not tell the truth? I guess they need to lie instead of rely on Jehovah like they preach to the congregations?!!?
I was absolutely shocked & appalled by the ARC. That alone should be enough for someone to seriously reconsider their commitment to such an organisation
Heartless organization (and I always hated the word “organization “). Glad I quit studying and going to the repetitive, boring meetings, a few years ago. Have no other family members who were ever involved with JW’s.
That isn't activism in no way. Just a sad and suicidal person who didn't see any future for him. The shunning policy is probably what drived him into that horrible crime. We want jw's to open their 👀 eyes and minds ...
This is heartbreaking to hear my wife and I was in for over 20 years we even went to Arizona to work in the Navaho rez for 3 years We are just getting out it has not been easy for us we have had no support on ether side of this we are on our own. But we have one family member who is old and has cancer and would not talk to us if we was to Disassociate So we decided to wait until she dies but I have a letter ready to send to our congregation at that time We are alone in this as we do not know any x Jws near us to reach out to for support. We still believe in the the Christ for our salvation I have let the body of elders know why we have left as much as I can tell them but and the end that are bad people they have lied to us over and over along with many other ungodliness they have done at the local level We know that there will be many more attacks on Jw s in the next years. They have a unique way of pissing people off.
Apparently the severely depressed ancient faithful servants like Job, David, Asaph, Elijah, the Apostle Peter, Jeremiah, and others were "spiritually weak."
I have at this time threats from an Elder who asked me in a message, how would I like it if he came and talked to my wife and told her what kind of man I really am. This after other Elder's have contacted my wives family Members who are married to Elders, have already contacted my wife demanding she divorce me and why would she marry such a bad Brother. And tgey actually gave my wife 24 hours to leave me. Yet not one of those coward's will cone and tell me what charges are they are holding against me. To this day letters have been written against me. Yet one Elder actually told me what is in those letters are just hearsay, yet they hold them against me even though they have no Witnesses. And I'm learning thus is not an isolated thing that happens. So when I heard of the shooting in Germany and this bombing in India, It did not surprise me, but at the same time, it made me sick! But the Elders are not innocent victims, but innocent publishers will pay a heavy price as the GB walks away as if their robes are White, but actually their Robes are Scarlet Red!😢 feel sorry for the many innocent ones who will pay the price for their "GB" HYPOCRISY!
You actually have a good case for defamation and wrongful interference in your personal life. I’d save every letter and record phone calls if they should be stupid enough to call and threaten. There was a horrible story on one of the ex-JW activist’s channel where a young husband and father made a video about his ordeal when he disassociated himself. He told of harassment and an who elder actually came to his wife and told her to get rid of this husband so she could marry him!! Then later the horrible news came out that this poor guy just couldn’t take any more and killed himself! 💔
Lady Cee hit the nail on the head “victimising the victims”. No justification for this man’s actions as all the participants here made clear. Unfortunately this won’t be the last episode because when you wake up and realise you’ve invested lost so much and have nothing to show and can’t turn back time, there’s going to be a small amount of people who react terribly.
Great job 👍😊 I am sorry that you have to live with organization for so many years .. I left 30 years ago , I am 57 but the ‘ gost “ of this organizzation ‘ hunted me for decades .. But with internet and thanks to your great job and other channels I got really free 😅👍love to everybody from Switzerland 🇨🇭👍
what i don’t understand about these types of terrorist acts and let’s face it, this was a terrorist act, albeit not political terrorism but terrorism nevertheless- is that these guys never go after the leadership. it’s always innocent people that take the brunt of their violent aggression. For example, we would unlikely ever see anyone attempting to bomb WT headquarters at Tuxedo Park, NY (which is the true location of WT headquarters, it’s not Warwick) the lies of the gov body run very deep , far and very wide.
I had been in organisation 50 I left crying the elders were cold hard and haughty I wonder what would have happened if I had mentle issues they gave me no respect
the world is more violent, godless, and immoral. What happened with the witnesses has happened within other churches, schools, and work place as well. It goes to show that no one is safe no matter what.
The governing body has the best security at Warwick.Ordinary JWs are so vulnerable & it suits the orgs persecution narrative when these tragedies happen .
How come nobody has made a documentary? I'm wondering there's kind of BA filming company directors. Some independent producer that would want to create a documentary on all of this. It actually beeped up expose. It needs to be put in minutes. Take a film with with them. People be interviewed and really the numbers. Of how many people have left like this couple? You said you or I have connected with other ex. Witnesses, there's gotta be some forum to really get everyone United in. To be able to start documenting this and exposing it
This organization does push people to the limit. I know first hand several young witnesses years ago that committed suicide because of the Jehovah's witness shunning policy. A few of those people that ended their lives were my friends. Another witness that my husband knew was an alcoholic. She needed much more help than the "scriptural advice" that the Elders' had to offer. Her husband was deleted from his position and she was told that if she went to an AA meeting that she would be disfellowshipped. Years later, I learned that she too had committed suicide. When My nephew got disfellowshipped, An Elder came to talk with my mother-in-law. He advised her to shun my nephew. This Elder's son was a victim of suicide due to being shunned.💔💔💔
The AA meetings help people stay sober. This is more helpful than the elders solution to everything ‘pray more’, ‘preach more’! That is so sad. I am appalled at the elders behavior & lack of knowledge as they are not professionals in these issues. This Cult needs to be sued by everyone that has been affected, believe me they will stop. Just due to the fact that they are sooo afraid of losing their Charity status & not get that money that they sooo much Love!
For a long time now I’ve been wishing for a class action suit to be brought against Watchtower by people whose entire lives have been destroyed by the inhumane practice of shunning. But I think the comments of these former JWs are right on target when they say Watchtower will destroy itself one day. Can’t come soon enough!
13:58 Oh my gawsh!! Weak....IF the 'allowed' counciling...this cult should be held accountable! I know an elder who committed suicide. They swept it under the rug.... You are correct...They did contribute to the problem. This cult is rediculous!
I agree with Fran about staying confused in the org, I stayed so confused as how I should feel about messages. I look back and see just how crazy and weird I must have been to my “non believing” family to the point of embarrassment when I see them during the holidays. I have shunned, doomed and loved them all at once 😂
When that happened I immediately thought that the 12 years old little girl could've been like me at that age 😳 😢 I was doubting for years already at 12 years old 💔... tragedy that watchtower created by the shunning policy and not going to college and even less to university 💔 I was blackmailed into baptism to go to college... I left at 17, years old in 1985, they took me out of college...Shunning at home was EXTREME ! Soon on the " shunned " channel a little of my life...
Watchtower doesn't care about the injured and the dead... they're happy that someone is feeding their narrative of persecution... Sorry for my numerous comments...I had lots to say about this. 😢
What is really sad is that its the victims that are being punished for being a victim. the ones responsibly is are still writing & speaking their lies & holding families hostage
Jehovah is not who you think he is......😮you may find out one day.......this is all so sad... i wa a JW for over twenty years...came out many years ago.......all the best to you all
Iam out too guys but I got my children I lost 3of my grandchildren their father is an elder it hurts but I can't imagine loosing all of them ;but the violence is not good because it only cause the members to double down and what they are taught
JT & Lady Cee, do you think these current events in India and elsewhere may cause the governing body to bring on Armageddon themselves and possibly a mass suicide of members?
I don't think so. I'm more concerned when they say do what we say even when it seems contrary to human perception. That is more scary. Violence feeds into the persecution complex.
If world events get out of hand and the "Society" needs a cash infusion they can always sell a few Kingdom Halls, beings that they own every single one of them. Most JW's don't know that. Someone should tell them.
Watchtower has been selling Kingdom Halls all over the world for quite a while now. Did you not know about this? One in my town in Canada sold for $3.2 million. Some time ago Watchtower “forgave” all the mortgages on halls around the world and promptly assumed ownership of all. Then began selling many. The so-called foregiveness of mortgage debt was a magic trick touted as this wonderful provision from Jehovah. Then every congregation worldwide was given the directive that every JW had to pay a certain amount of money that would equal what the mortgage amount was. There was a dollar amount assessed per family according to number of people in each family. It’s collected every month and sent in to Watchtower, the religion that scoffed at other religions that “tithed”!!
Exactly we didn't know we where a victim, like it was express we got to project a positive attitude. I know how it took me a long time to realize that this religion wasn't of God, so of the friends or the conditional friends really don't know my stands they try to question me in a sud subtle way. Just trying to mentioning Jehovah name constantly. What I do is keep talking about Jehovah letting them know that he loves all mankind that why he send his son for the whole world. Just use what you know because really they are truly drowning in there on work. They continue making excuses for the changes & for the false doctrine that changing. The shunning is so unloving, I have faded for 9yrs never to return, when I see them out some speak & some don't. I must say I can't believe how gullible I was, just looking around anybody can be bamboozle. We was groom to think more ourselves, as if I was better them my family who wasn't apart of there organization. OMG, I wasn't suppose to grow old events, they would quote the Bible nobody knows the day or hours to much. There biggest tactic is to scare you believe there nonsense, whatever there what they call them now the faithful slave, The internet is one of the best source. If you been in it for sometime the Baptism talk has change several times. I promise you the worse mind game, they manipulate your mind to transfer your thought to believe a lie. They offer you something they can't give Paradise. SMH iAM ALSO 3 SCORES & 10. Just think I became a JW 1975 when the end should've been here. Please invite me to the ex JW CONVENTION.
If we leave the organization we cannot allow the hurt to control our lives...... we are making it worst on ourselves if we do that...... LEAVE IN PEACE and seek help to fix our emotional ills.....we will at some point get over the disappointments we experienced.... No need to plan to kill anyone at all..... It's hard but just move on.....we can heal..... It very gruesome to take anyone's life like that..... We were there with the intention to be good people.....if our expectations were not met.....then find a way to move on with a clean conscience......
@@Joeandfran Thank you for sharing your experience. I lost my mom and dad, 3 sisters aunts and uncles and only friends I had to the JW organization. So I feel your pain. I pray every day for my parents to wake up. It’s my parents I ache for. But once you know this isn’t the truth you can’t go back. I pray always to Jehovah so I will definitely be praying for you two. Sending love to the both of you.
46:22 Talk about blame shifting? *"We don't shun them. They shun us."* 😲🧐 WAIT? WHAT!? This is such narcissistic behavior coming from the ORG. It's intended to confuse you, to make you doubt your memory of what they have said in the past about shunning. You could have sworn they said that shunning was Jehovah's loving provision. A form of godly discipline. Which by the way, discipline is needed when making disciples. Because the org is not infallible nor inspired and can err on spiritual doctrines ( and directions, ) they have no need to apologize, for anything. Yet now they claim that it is the other way around? Those who leave are the ones shunning the Jehovah's Witnesses? Oh please! Now this is called gaslighting. They want you to doubt your own memory, mentality and reasoning skills so that you will become more dependent on them. The Organizations worsted fear is for their followers to become self reliant.
Putting things into some perspective, religious violence in this world is common - although it is usually (but not always) confined to the muslims. The effects of religion can mix up your mind in tragic ways. As a JW myself of some 35yrs + but somewhat faded for past 10 yrs and all my siblings still in boots and all, i can honestly say that the local cong elders though they have made some attempt to ""visit" or call, they havent been forceful about it and have left me alone once they got the message- i still might go to the odd convention to keep my siblings happy or say i take in the on line programs etc as fundamentally i do think JW teachings are mostly? correct namely that this global system will end "soon", that the earth will be transformed into a paradisacal society for people and creatures - i DO believe that because it makes sense. What i dont believe is that the GB has any real understanding on prophetic interpretation. They freely admit of course that they are "not inspired" yet they demand obedience ( on punishment of disfellowshipment) to their interpretations which have been found faulty many, many times!!! They claim to be "not inspired" yet they say they are God/Jehovahs only true channel of communication to mankind and where God feeds and spiritually guides his sheep at "the proper time" . Call me daft, but can anyone see a glaring contradiction in that claim??
It would be interesting to see if one of the GB members needed surgery and had to have blood what would they do? Are they afraid to die cause they know their doctrine is BS or they would embrace it cause they really believe they're going to heaven.
The GB and WT already agree on the Blood Doctrine causing many MANY deaths. Thus sadly, they don't really wish to protect the flock. But we should always respectfully look to help, not hinder, the flock!
They can't, because it's one of the few things keeping this dysfunctional religion whole. If they get rid of shunning, membership will collapse overnight. But if they keep it, things like this are bound to keep happening. It'll be interesting to see how the Borg reacts in the weeks and months ahead.
I was 12/13 When Paul Gilles came to my congregation. He was young and handsome and was a Bethelite. He was amazing on service and brought many ppl in and I loved him… Such a shock to watch him lying to attorneys about not being sure if he attended meetings that told elders to destroy all evidence of child abuse. So shocked to see him bumble through questions about being a member of the United Nations such a liar. He and his dishonest henchmen eventually disfellowshipped me but left my exhusband in for the same crime. Nepotism is alive and well in that cult.
I'm curious as to what does couple now believes in. I would like to think that they have not joined another church. Because every single church belongs to Rome, including the watchtower society. They all are governed by the Vatican. I would really hope that the Holy Spirit has lead this couple to Practice, they're faith according to the Bible and the Bible only. There's lots of small individual groups of people following God's commandments. And they fit the peculiar people that was proficied would be at the end of times and it is not any church. It is individual people that is to truth today.
I was born and raised as a JW. I worked on the crisis line for the states of Arizona and Colorado. I would love to share my experience of depression and suicial ideation with my clients.
