Every video has less and less views than the previous one. Guess that's a good indication of how many people think long range shooting is cool vs. how many people actually want to put in the work to achieve that goal.
Jacob Bauer I noticed this too but its not only on this series, but on all youtube playlist/guide/lessons. people are motivated at first and then less and less remain.
Hi Rex, I wrote a short comment way up ahead from here when I first encountered your series at about Video #86, I think. But as promised, and being a thorough type, I went back to the beginning, and am now here at Video #28. I've watched a zillion how-to videos by various enthusiasts on many topics and most of them are badly filmed and have dreadful hesitant or confused delivery, but as I've worked through yours at a rate of about 5 per day, I've been very impressed at your constant and systematic style, delivery and focus, never straying off topic. I'm sure I'll have more to say as I work through, perhaps some queries too, but even now I think, in some ways, I'll actually be disappointed when I get to the end, wherever that is. Guess I'll just have to start over! Your style suits me very much as I enjoy practical physics and spreadsheets and simply being organized, and as a geologist too, I enjoy - even crave - the field component. I'm glad you don't promote high-end gear exclusively, even if it is nice to have if you can afford it. Too many decades ago, I had a Parker-Hale Custom (military wood removed and parkerized metal) SMLE 0.303 British for feral deer and goat shooting in NZ, with a standard open military ladder sight graduated to 1200 yards and with a windage rack on it. That thing could shoot like you wouldn't believe - even on old mil "seconds" ammo - and nailed a lot of animals out to 500 yards and one exceptional shot at full elevation to 1200 yards right across a deep valley, which I doubt I could repeat. But the only reason I mention it at all here is to say I appreciate what you say, that some mil rifles and even those dismissed as "clunkers" can really shoot well. God knows how much time and effort you have put into this series. I'd just like to say thanks, from me and also on behalf of the many others who are interested in this LR discipline. You deserve a medal!! Cheers from Down-under!
Man, you are seriously a better teacher than any I had at Ohio State. I've gotten through three videos today but its a lot to take in. I don't even have a bolt action yet but my fiancé has expressed interest in long range shooting so I am watching this and I will re watch this with her once we get her a bolt gun. This could seriously be a college level class if they taught shit that mattered in college.....
This video series brings me back to Field Artillery BOLC. I miss shooting the big guns but I think I can get the same satisfaction from dialing in a long range rifle setup.
Great question: To be addressed in full detail very soon :-) These powders can help to stabilize or reduce the powder temperature portion of your MV variation, but we will still need to plot our MVs as there is still the possibility of significant variation even with the extreme line of powders. Too difficult to explain in detail here, but we will do a full vid on MVV where we will answer your question in further detail :-)
Thanks so much Rex! you are a great teacher and a multitalented person. I am a new viewer and new to long range, before I've always been a 200 yard moose hunter. I look forward to the knowledge in the sport of long range shooting. God bless! your friend from A.K.
TRex I cant tell you with enough emphisis how helpful and educational this series is for any shooter at any level I have learned and relearned so much and continue to improve in knoledge and precision and accuracy in my shooting by applying the dope of your methods to my shooting practice....thank you so much for providing such valuable and honest information. USN Vet.
Yeah, that very well may be the case for most of the shortcomings of the temperature section. The humidity section, however, is completely erroneous. Great commentary, sir.
Exactly. You got it figured out. We will cover the topic of weapon and ammo deployment in more detail, but yes, we will have top make sure our ammo is handled carefully in the field for these reasons.
You got it. Its a reference point. We will still apply the concept of standard conditions when making our first base table - I was just making the point that you will almost always be adjusting for atmospheric conditions. Most guys use a base chart and multiply the values by atmospheric constants, but we will have to do much more than that to get the best results. The variations in internal ballistics are what spoil the whole deal, you need a completely different set of data for each MV.
Great question! This topic is addressed in full detail later on in this series. Basically, I will show you how to correct for muzzle velocity variations due to ammo temperature differences and set up your ballistic tables for the appropriate drop data so that you can precisely adjust for these differences.. Stay tuned!
Its best to do load development tailored to the temperature you anticipate operating in the most, then deal with MVV and other problems due to extreme temperatures if needed.
Yeah, mostly. One patch will change the bore a little bit, but not a whole lot. It would still be wise to fire a round or two when you get back out just to reestablish your 'normal' conditions.
I had my bolt action .22 dead on at 50 yards the other day. It was about 35 deg outside. I was hitting almost an inch higher today, but the temperature was a nice 60 deg. Plus, my ammo was out in my truck on the first day. But, today it had been in the house. Shooting bench, and conditions were the same, both days. Just though that I would share that with everyone... Soooo many variables, when it comes to ballistics. I plan on looking into how much a headwind, or tailwind will effect trajectory, also. Ballistics fascinate me. lol
I've killed small deer with the A-Max, and it is surely lethal, but its not designed for 'reliable' penetration. The very best choice for long range efficiency AND terminal performance would be the Berger VLDs. If those are too pricey, look for a hunting bullet with a streamlined boat-tail design. The .284" Sierra 175 grain Gamekings are not too bad, and the Hornady SSTs are pretty nice.
I never get tired of this stuff. I teach stall/spin dynamics for airplanes and there's a lot of similarities in the science of both. (I watched this series 2x already - see you at RX18 😁).
The Savage FP .308 w/ 20" barrel I tested produced descent accuracy (about 1 moa) with 150 grain noslers. The chamber seemed almost too tight. Some of these rifles were reported to give excellent accuracy. This should be a great budget set up all the way out to 800 meters in this cartridge. The 168s are a great choice.
To effectively kill game, the right balance of bullet expansion, energy transfer, and penetration is needed. The MKs can expand erratically based on velocity and the medium being struck. A lot of it has to do with bullet jacket and core design. Hunting bullets are typically designed to give reliable expansion up to a certain point w/o coming completely unglued in order to preserve the penetration needed to ensure quick lethality. More on this in the coming Terminal Ballistics vids.
Once again, great vids Rex, I'm on my 3rd round of watching taking notes with pencil this time, speaking of luck, I just hit 800yrds 2in low bout 7oclock 8in target, shot 1000yrd and hit 5in low 7oclock 12 in target, this was traj. in inches, still having trouble with MOA and MILRAD, its mostly my scopes, I was basically doin the granpa holdover, but I'd like to hit a mile so new optics and figuring out milrads all on factory ammo and a lot of studying, thanx for the vids
You could find a FM 23-10 at Barnes & Noble I bet. Its approved for public release. You could use the 80s in the 1:8", that will get ya to 1000 meters.
Haha, the ending :D I love this series and am looking forward to the internal ballistics, I think that will be a very nice topic. Can't tell too much compliments for your videos!
If one does not have an IR thermometer, would it be a fair assessment of ammunition temperature to use the current ambient air temperature? Lets presume that the ammo is not stored in direct sunlight. Thanks!! Loving the entire series.
My camera stuff is actually pretty primitive. I use a spotting scope mount for my Kodak Sport and a Canon Powershot with 40X optical zoom. Its sort of works for now. I hope to upgrade again soon.
If both are grouping about the same, I would go with the slightly higher ballistic coefficient. They are both target bullets, but the 168s should offer better penetration than the A-Maxs. Because of their widespread availability I use 168 BTHPs for my long range load in my .308s. The best??? If you could find the 173 grain BT FMJ M118s, those would be the very best for serious purposes.
The side focus models are a little more rugged and they are a little easier to see where you've adjusted while laying prone, but other than that, the rear focus models are just fine. :-)
I dare to say that the shortcomings with the army sniper manual is a concious choice. Call it a compromise between ease of use and perfect ballistics, it´s close enough for snipers in early training and will get you on target out to 800, and at the closer ranges 1moa off still kills the target. The more experienced shooters will get their own dope charts anyways and extend out to 1100m or so ...
Iron sights are the most rugged way to go for sure, and if used correctly by someone with good vision, can keep up with a scope quite well. I like the KNS Round Dot Post Sight .034" for precision apps in a black rifle. Rear sight? Standard A2 works great for me :-) Check out my Long Range .22 Pistol video for pointers on using open sights effectively.
On shooting, in warmer air, would not both the external air, and the air inside the barrel, be less dense. As such, the resistance against the bullet accelerating down the barrel would be less, and consequently the muzzle velocity would be faster (in addition to the effect of warmer powder).
Thank you for your info... The valuable information acquired from your videos , although might seem like overkill for my application, are an eye opener to what it takes to make them long distance shots.... I have read a few books, but nothing comes close to your videos... For now, long range hunting means under 1000 meters but the practice will serve me later on....Never was a big fan of running before walking, so I to rather use a pencil over a program in the beginning... God bless us all....
IPHY is different than MOA, so you will want to use the appropraite ranging formulas and be sure to have all your drop data set up for IPHY when you set up your ballistic tables as well.
Some of the cheap ammo out there works just fine. I used to shoot this cheap Portuguese stuff out of my .308 all the time, and it gave me sub m.o.a. accuracy. On the other hand, I've tried some other cheap ammo that was terrible. It depends on exactly what ammo you are shooting. Buy a box and try it. If it shoots good - then you'll know :-)
At which video so we get to the tutorials on how to create our own correction charts? I'm 28 in and still haven't gotten to that part, is it soon? Great set of tutorials btw Rex. Thanks for putting these together for us newbies!
You will be able to zero @ any temperature you want, as we will be completely adjusting for all the temperature affects. It may be best to zero at the temperature most typical in your area of operations, but we will correct for ammo burn rate changes and ambient air temp. Just record all the conditions at the time you zero your rifle and keep that for later. :-)
The outputs will vary considerably based on numberous other inputs, but generally speaking... Warmer ammo temp means higher MV and thus less drop... Warmer air means less density and thus less drop... I would have to see all you input parameters to know how to answer your question in more detail. There could be any number of things going on. Hope this helps.
It appears a simple approach to the temperature variation might be to allow a 1% reduction in the elevation correction for every 2.5 degrees ambient temperature increase. This would reduce the error to a rather small amount and be easy to calculate. Not accurate. But a lot better than 23-10.
What happens when you chamber a round into a rifle that has just been fired? How do you calculate the ammo temp at time of ignition, especially if you leave the round in for 10 to 20 seconds before you pull the trigger?
Hey TiborasaurusRex, thanks for the series, really been enjoying the knowledge you are sharing...how much do you find your ammo temperature varies from ambient temperature (assuming you didn't just step out of the truck ;)?? Thanks..
When I was a kid learning how to hunt the old man would have me keep my ammo inside my coat. I don't think he knew to much about burn rates at different temperatures since he taught me kentucky windage or WAG, but he always claimed it was important to keep ammo the same temperature.
Rex, quick question. Disclaimer I am a novice. Now the question, when discussing temp and the "thickness" of cold air versus the "thinness" of hot air, are those changes reflected in barometric pressure readings? In other words, barometric pressure reads (as I understand it) how much air is present at a given reading; therefore, why are temperature readings as well as barometric pressure readings necessary? Sorry for the novice question, I'm trying to get my head around all of this new information, and thanks in advance for your response.
Thanks for all the hard work you put into these videos and thanks for sharing with us. I have a good sum of Nosler 155gr custom competitions and 168gr Amax's. My rifle is Rem700P 1:12 w/ 26" barrel. Objective target shooting and coyotes, and SHTF stuff. 1) Any thoughts on which to develop using your methods? 2) Any other favorite/recommended bullet for this rifle?
I'm going to guess the only accurate way to log it is to take an ammo reading, with an ir gun just before inserting it in to the gun. Remember even things like sun light can make a big difference in ammo temperature. If you are just going to guess, like you are talking about, I'd definitely let the ammo temp stabelize outside, siting next to a thermometer, in the shade
Your video uses 7.62x51mm loads with 168gr bullets when critiquing the FM 23-10. The "Equipment" section of the manual designates the M24, which uses 175gr rocks at 2580fps. I used some of my ballistics software to plug in 5.56 NATO from an M4 in addition to the M114 from the M24. There IS a shift of very close to 1 MOA @ 800m per 20*F change in temperature [when above freezing] from the M4 and the same from the M24, except at 900m. However, they may have taken a rule of thumb from some old fart M16ers and just stuck it in the book.
JT McFarland Dude, I struggled with your same concerns for years until I stumbled across Rex's videos. The problem with ballistic apps is, even though you can account for atmospheric changes different from when when you chronographed your load, they don't account for muzzle velocity variations due to ammo temperature and bore conditions. There are offsets you can enter to "calibrate" your data, but thats only after taking shots and confirming the offset from zero.
Hi Rex, you mention that you want to spare us the mathematics behind but I'd really like to see it. Do you have another video on that or some sources that you deem good?
Unfortunately, I have not done extensive reloading for this particular cartridge. 190gr MKs seem to be a good projectile, but perhaps one of our viewers with more experience loading this round could be of better assistance. :-)
This is my favorite RU-vid channel for sure. I can listen to this stuff for hours including the videos on Christianity. Question for you: Where did you guys get those hats?
Maybe you cover this in one of your later vids, if so, I'll wait for the answer, but how do ambient/ammo temperature effect your shot specifically as it pertains to harmonics? Or does it have no effect on harmonics? Also, awesome series. I'll be getting a rifle setup soon. Hopefully within a few months. I'd like to hear what you think about the setup in intend on getting. Maybe point me in the right direction of you think I should get something else.
Hi, I just way too start off by saying that I am really enjoying this series on the science of long range shooting. I am really learning a lot. My question is with the ballistic calculators that you can get on the android devices or like the one you have, if it does have corrections for some internal ballistics and you were to use the devices such as an IR thermometer for your powder temp would the ballistic calculator be useful if it can account for some of the internal ballistics. Thank you in advance for your response and again thank you for the video series.
Hi Rex! Recently you have been promoting the Primary Arms DMR reticles. I love the idea and own one for my 5.56. However, how does the information this course and this video work with a BDC reticle like that. For example.... If the reticle is calibrated to certain conditions can one size truly fit all? Or are those reticles only useful for those 800 yard targets and below. Thanks in advance!
Maybe I missed it somewhere or we didn't get there yet, but when do you measure "ammo temperature" ? After you put it into the rifle and it is chambered and reaches thermodynamic equilibrium with the barrel ? And how long does that take ? And would "dat be da bomb" way to do it ?
Hi Rex, what IR thermometer are you using to record your ammo temp? Do you have a certain method? Do you set your IR to a certain EMS level? I'm not sure if I'm recording the correct ammo temp since it varies a lot when I rotate the case around while taking the measurement with my IR thermometer. Thanks in advance!
The manual isn't really off for shots under 600 yards. yards, aproximative deviation from manual with 20F increase @100 1'' @200 1.8'' @300 2.1'' @400 1.6'' @500 1'' @600 0.6'' + the difference in speed of the bullet for wind corrections. if the bullet is faster it doesn't get as much wind diviation. so if comes from the right. the bullet will be at the right because of the less time in the air due to increase of speed. Tell me if I'm missing something i didn't see the rest of your videos yet.
How much does powder choice affect internal ballistics in your opinion. I use H4350 in my .260 Rem and my POI seems to track pretty well from 200-1000 yards during my monthly matches. I average 0.1 to 0.3mRad of adjustment month to month. I am enjoying your videos
Hey rex! Do you have a video for figuring out the bullet velocity with changing temperature? I see on your video on ballistic tables video, you have a table for your velocities at the different temperatures that you plot into JBM..
Rex, love the series! Thanks for sharing all this info with us. Just getting started in long distance shooting. I'm working on load development now, and doing my ladder test tomorrow. When I find my accuracy node tomorrow how will that change under a different temp the next time I shoot. Won't that temp change, change my rifle harmonics. Will Changing harmonics due to velocity, through my shot off? If it does will it be consistent and can we take that into account and adjust for it?
Rufus T Firefly Although you will have to watch the speed changes, the variation due to ammo temperature will not change the harmonic signature enough to significantly affect the load's POI due to vibratory bore axis shifts.
Duuuh. By chrono, I assumed you were talking about a hand held chronograph and I could not figure out how I was going to time my bullets with a hand help chrono,
I've run into some unexplainable calculation issues sir. If I had $1,000,000 i would gladly give it to you for HELP! lol. My tables will not work out for my dope. they consistently have my up to 2 MOA over my actual dope. in desperation I've "reverse calculated" by firing from multiple distances finding my actual dope then playing with velocities in a ballistics calculator until I find what works. ballistics calculator shows me at 2800 fps and my Chrony shows me averaging 2600!!! I'm stumped.
This may be answered elsewhere but what sort of consistency of muzzle velocities recorded at a standard ammo/environmental temp (all else being equal) need to be obtained before there is any value in recording muzzle velocities at other temperatures?
Matt... I know it's been a long while since you made this series, but I have a question regarding temperature... Which would give me better results as far as determining muzzle velocity. If my ammo temp is different than the air temp.. which one should I use to determine an actual muzzle velocity..?? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks...
For temp you adjust 1 MOA at 100 meters or 1000 meters? Isnt that a huge difference? Wouldn't that be the difference between say 4 clicks on the elevation @100m and like .5 clicks of elevation @1000m?
