Lore Revelations in the Shadow of the Erdtree | The Chill Zone Reacts 

He's still a horrible person who worships an outer god of blood. But in this specific thing, he was innocent.

@@1wayroad935 Eh, debatable, it could be seen that he viewed what he was doing as vengeance for how he was treated even though he was a rightful heir of the Golden Lineage. Whilst the Formless Mother is a god of blood, that doesn't necessarily make it evil, in fact it's heavily implied that the reason Mohg worshipped her was because he viewed her as his real mother, not Marika since the Formless Mother not only accepted him but she also gave him a power that nobody else had at the time; Bloodflame. And sure, he was planning a revolution against the Golden Order and all of its followers but can you really blame him when he was viewed as a curse just because he was born with different features? When others of his kind were killed or enslaved just because of their horns? I for one would argue that Mohg's acts were entirely justified now that the DLC has clarified that his kidnapping of Miquella was because he was under Miquella's influence.

⁠​⁠@@1wayroad935wow such bigotry against a religion that employed a lot of albinaurics(a marginalized race) I hope you reflect and do better

​@@Onbutteredtoast Mega based

@@1wayroad935 That's literally a Fromsoft staple. That same description fits over a dozen other characters(Most of which are in Bloodborne but that's besides the point.)

He's already dead, though. Can't execute the Lord of Blood twice

Nah..saying Justice for mohg is the same as saying justice for any mass murderer who didn't really rape his victims before he killed them..he only tried to kill them..its just one evil trying to use another evil..

​@lovelessamphitheater4287 every demi God in the game is a mass murder or flat out insane

​@smokyjuian1054 that's what I'm trying to say.

People were actually theorizing Mohg might have been somewhat sane to very and actually quite friendly but we don't know much but mohg did earn justice his name was named mohglester and now mohg and we killed the real lester

Yeah, and as much as shamans in general are cobsidered to be wild, spiritualists whom are kinda sketchy, shrine maidens have always been portrayed as purely good devotees, kind, helpful, bringing warmth and healing others. And hornsent just decided to massacre a settlement of (generally percieved as) pure-good people.

Also interesting to note that Shaman, like you mentioned, refers to Miko which in some of the earliest historical periods of Japan would have been part of the ruling class. One thing that is important contextually (which you covered) is that Shaman is this instance refers to a woman. This all dates back to what is essentially prehistory, but it is super interesting to nerd out over.

Mohg is also called "Luminary" and is possibly sealing the Frenzied Flame from being found. He might be a little crazy and worship a god that "craves a wound", but he has drip, he had a man among men under him, his knights have drip.

Honestly, with everything we know about Mohg at this point, his whole revolution just seems to be a way for him to try and stop the oppression of his people and others suffering similar things due to the Golden Order. I just wish we could've seen him before he was charmed by Miquella because the charm itself seems to be the thing that's making him seem evil and obsessed.

He's just an abandoned kid that found comfort in a new mother who embraced his "birth defects"

Well as for “not a seasoned fighter”, if you observe how Mohg fights, he just flails his trident around with no care in the world. He often uses one hand to swing it. I bet that’s why it was hard to learn his attacks. The other ones, such as the bloodflame spells, he just cuts away for the boiling blood to spill out, making a mess everywhere. I want to see a professional sword fighter react to some of games’ enemies and bosses to see what’s the most optimal way to use their weapons as well as the sizes of said weapons and the enemy themselves.

​@lukasruston8618 "Revolution" is an _interesting_ way to describe a pack of bloodthirsty cultists

It looks right to be honest. Its not that he was stopping the stars from dropping, its him dropping to the land of death that he was trying to prevent.

@@vhalrougelarfouxe To be fair, the DLC has definitively shown us that anything coming from the stars is always bad news. So he's actually pulling double duty.

@@1wayroad935 man is damn chad through and through

But theres still so much left unexplored, WE NEED ELDEN RING 2

@@1wayroad935 I mean thats only sort of true, considering that "long ago, we began as stardust, born of a great rupture far across the skies". Based on a lot of what is in the DLC, it seems to be suggesting that a large portion of the life in the lands between ultimately came from the stars (which is likely why the stars control fate for so much of the life in elden ring)

I just realised an interesting possibility, when Marika grew a conscience and realized her mistakes, did she see Miquella making *the exact same mistakes* as her, and move to pre-empt him?

Can you show me where it was implied Marika plotted against Godwin? That is such a crazy plot, dude!

@@vhalrougelarfouxe The Black Knife Assassins are rumored to have all been Numen with close ties to Marika, and translations reveal that Marika's betrayal of Malikith is more a betrayal on their goal of sealing away Destined Death, which suggests her having a hand in it's theft.

@@vhalrougelarfouxe look at everything to do with the Black Knife Assassins and the "night of black knives" which is the assassination plot that ended with Godwin the Golden's death. Like someone else said, the black knives are reportedly all numen women (marika's race; tree like, long lived, seldom born) with close ties to Marika herself. Interestingly, what if Godwin wasn't the intended target, and simply got in the way? The items associated with the Black knives implies they used every method of magical concealment possible, and every God killing magic known. Considering Miquella's charm is so insanely busted, Marika probably knew trying to confront Miquella directly herself would just lead to her subjugation, making assassins the best option. If Godwin was charmed at this point, or simply in the wrong place wrong time, he could have taken the hit to save Miquella. At some point after this assassination plot, Miquella would retreat to the Halig Tree, and convince Godwin's forces to join his banner (items imply that godwins remaining followers joined Miquella in hopes he would resurrect Godwin) then Marika shatters the Elden ring which kicks off the war between the demigods. We see the Golden Capital under attack by some other army, what army would be loyal to someone other than Marika at this stage? Probably Miquella! We know he sent Malenia and his/her armies, including Godwin's forces (the general who has the golden needle) toward Radahn, its conceivable his forces also attacked the golden capital. Then due to the stalemate between Malenia and Radahn, this forces Miquella to consider other means to gain a worthy consort. Leading to him charming Mogue and entering the plane of shadow.

It's explicitly indicated that Miquella was a simp for Radanh since they were kids. I wouldn't be surprised if all of the bs that Miquella has done was for the only purpose to get his cheeks clapped by his older stepbrother.

I can picture Aldia shrugging his tree shoulders seeing another wannabe god trying to establish a lie as the status quo.

And at the end of the day, Humans (and other species and races) are still enslaved to the will of the Gods. And with the whole compulsion/brainwashing thing that Miquella can do, they are even more enslaved than they were before.

Imagine a land of true peace, sounds nice until one day you find out everything in creation has no, real, free will, you're all under someone else's control. Peace is peace, but it is a fake peace, it isn't real. And if it isn't real your actions are not your own, so what, is the actual point?

Warranted peace must be just that, it may never be obtainable in any real aspect unless it is just that. Anything else is just control on any spectrum.

When every side can agree upon it and live in a stalemate without end.

The Three Fingers are just a symbolic representation of primordial chaos. Just like in Dark Souls 1, in the beginning everything was melded together and then things came into existence, started separating and breaking away, the Greater Will being one of them. The Chaos seeks to melt everything with Frenzied Flame and blend it all together as it once was, to bring everything back to that primordial chaos state. In that regard, it's fitting that there are Three Fingers as the agent of Chaos, ready to "reunite" with Two fingers and form a whole hand together, a symbolic representation of that great melding of everything into one Chaos, as it used to be aeons ago. They weren't tied to the Greater Will to begin with and they acted on their own accord, so they weren't affected by Metyr losing sanity...

I bet the three fingers also come from Metyr

@@YamiAi They don't for two reasons. One is what I said before, the Three Fingers are manifestation of Chaos and completely separate entity from Greater Will, they're not affiliated. Two, Rememberance of the Mother of Fingers specifically says she is the mother of all TWO fingers and Fingercreepers...

@@LastSecBloomer The three fingers could have started out as a fingercreeper, grew bigger until three fingers, abd somewhere along the way betrayed Metyr and swore allegiance to frenzy flame. We just don't know.

Miquella is definitely better because he actually has feet.

What about snakes as feet 😂

@@revenantwolzart I mean, it's certainly unique a little too bitey though.

Leda even said that they aren't saints, they just lost the war. It's not really a nice thing to do, but you understand why Marika started the genocide.

Yeah, I can see that perspective. I find it unlikely the Hornsent would ever ally with any shaman. Unless the whole saint creation through the pots could maybe create someone the Hornsent would view as holy. If then that person attacked the Hornsent maybe they would view that as betrayal. But I don't think Marika ever was potted by the Hornsent. Instead Marika got her powers partly by allying with the Fingers and mainly through the gate of divinity.

I see your point but it’s also possible Marika align with the hornsent specifically to betray them. That’s the scenario that makes the most sense to me.

I agree. Betrayal could just be referring to her replacing the Crucible with the Erdtree

Thats such a subtle detail i can kinda see them If they are that would be insane

He's still the head of the Magic AIDS cult so idk if he's really got a positive outlook even after beating the mohglester allegations

Well he’s not completely clear. He still made a blood cult.

​@@theashen2019 You say that as if the whole lands aren't filled by many genocidal cults to outer gods, like, even the ruling power is one, Mohg and the Formless Mother atleast accept everyone into their one.

​@sampletexttablet8558 Yes, _everyone_ can spill blood for the blood god. Oceans of it, if Mohgwyn Palace alone is anything to go by.

I could also imagine that Radahn knows about the dignity that Malenia held and how she doesn't like her rot ability. It probably took him by complete surprise that the undefeated Malenia, who always seems so graceful and honorable, would rely on a power t hat is not truly hers.

I think it's more apt to say that where Miquella sought to correct the world through love, Madra sought to correct the world through dreams. Which is interesting, seeing the parallels between St. Trina and dreams and sleep.

@@krimsonentertainment4717 The problem is that not a single one of those options has to do with the broken, forsaken Fingers. Which were once, indeed, not like this. And for that to be the case, there had to be a time where that connection existed. A will without a will would make that impossible, as much as one that couldn't give a shit because then why did the Finger Mother and the Elden Beast ever come? Why was she once not broken and able to commune with it?

Id like to revise my previous statement, forgive my previous wording as I have difficulty putting word to thought sometimes. I thing there was always a greater will before the elden beast and Metyr. Then there was a disconnect somehow, much like Placidusax being disconnected with his god. Why is the greater will not speaking? I proposed that its nature could have evolved/changed/devolved as stars are born, die, and change. Did the greater will become so powerful off its vassal worlds it simply ascended beyond the need to communicate with its vassals? Did it become devolved through some battle or corruption? Or even a life cycle for a outer god is different than we understand and it simply died? Killed by the hungry other gods wanting to take influence from others? I might have proposed that the greater will didnt exist before I wanna clarify that.

Hey, Omens are like that

He's chill like that😂

Oh, just as a PS: I believe surviving the jar, and the fact that "shamans meld well with others", makes me believe that maybe Marika's actions may have been more radical: I believe the bodies at the gate were maybe not hornsent, but the last shamans, sacrificing themselves to give hear a chance at godhood, to fight back with all they could. And I believe Radagon was born as her alternative from that point forward. Her ability to be in more than one place at once, as queen and a warrior. To massacre her enemies in the name of the brand-new Golden Order that was just beginning

Another addendum: Radagon was probably blonde like Marika, but if I remember correctly, became a red-head because of the giants curse, which he resented deeply.

That the Greater Will went silent a long time ago, the Two Fingers are not communicating with it, they communicate with their mother who doesn't hear the Will anymore and is just kinda winging it

I don't think Marika did what she did 'for a better world'. I think she removed death to prevent the people she cared about (i.e. family) from dying. That's why the black knives plot is what triggers her to shatter the ring. What her motivations besides that seem to be just greed for ever more power. So she still isn't a good person, but she isn't some caricature of pure evil.

@@liarwithagun considering it is strongly implied Marika assisted Ranni in the Night of Black Knives, i'm going to cast doubt on that being as you interpreted it.

Yes, it was more a reference to him not being reviewed, as his soul is forever gone. Even with what Fia did I doubt we will ever hear from him again.

The fuck are you talking about? Even though he wasn't quite shown to be willing to literally kill everyone he cared about by being pushed to the edge, Griffith before his fall always had an entirely selfish dream he didn't hesitate to reach for. Miquella's hope is the opposite of selfish, and required essentially tearing off pieces of himself, including a piece outright saying you should kill the Godly him as Godliness will be nothing but a cage and his ability to doubt and hesitate, implying he very much doubted and very much hesitated about all this nonsense. The parallel you are making literally doesn't exist. Even the "child" stuff makes no sense, because nothing ever implies Miquella doesn't understand consent or the complexity of a free will. Seems to me that he knew, yet still thought his so-called great age of kindness would still remain a preferable option.

If your refer his kindness by using his charm skills is kindly, then your dead wrong a out it... Anyone who oppossed or who don't follow his will your just either going to be killed or be charmed with no free will...

If by "turned out to be Griffith" you mean "is morally the opposite of Griffith in every regard," then I guess you'd be right.

tell me you've never read Berserk without telling me you've never read Berserk.

Right, I see this has upset some people. Please permit me to make an attempt to justify my reasoning for this comparison. Here goes. Griffith: aims to create his own kingdom. From what we see in the daily life in Falconia, one could reasonably assume that this kingdom implies prosperity, peace, and security for the common citizen. He is seen by these citizens as a great hero, the Hawk of Light. He saved the princess, he saved the people from the Kushan, and he is actively trying to protect the people from all of the monsters. The (original) Band of the Hawk also loved him and followed him anywhere he wished. He did everything in is power to appear altruistic. What nobody knew/knows, of course, is that this is merely an instrument. Griffith is a hyper intelligent sociopath (not certain on the exact/accurate diagnosis, so don’t at me) who knows exactly what to do and what to say to get what he wants. Everything and everyone is an instrument to him. Only affection he shows is equivalent of a craftsman having and taking care of his favourite set of tools for plying the trade. He slipped up because effectively, his favourite hammer told him it wants to go its own way and beat him in a fight. So when a new instrument presented itself at the eclipse, and was clearly superior to all other instruments, of course he discarded them. Miquella: wishes to create the Age of Compassion and to “make the world a gentler place.” To this end, he has developed the power to charm anyone to his cause. He is seen as gentle, tender, kind, caring. He made a haven for the dejected, he helped his sister to fight an external influence of the Scarlet Rot. He will also, not take no for an answer. Like a child he goes “no, we do what I want”, and compels those who oppose him to join him. He will single-mindedly pursue his goal, whatever means necessary, and anyone who even attempts to challenge his ideals will be swayed, or discarded. Him giving up parts of himself is not an altruistic act of sacrifice but merely a removal of what is in the way of the goal. Nowhere is this clearer than with St. Trina, as she was discarded because she was against Miquella’s goal and could not be charmed into being for it. Miquella convinced his sister (possibly through the charming) to kill his brother, and bewitched his other brother into doing what he did, all to attain his goal. Now as to why I draw these parallels: both have a single-minded goal that involves some form of peace and prosperity. Both are single-mindedly obsessed with this goal. Both are beloved by the common people and have groups of devout followers. Both compel and persuade to get what they want, while keeping the dirty work hidden to the best of their ability. The differences come in the tools at their disposal, and the subsequent behavour caused by the use of these tools. Up until the eclipse, Griffith was but a mortal man, so he had to use mortal “tools”. I’m sure that if he had the power to snap his fingers and say “You love me now.” and it worked, he would use it on the noble who tried assassinating him (I forget the name), as well as the king, and queen. So this is an example of “the words may be different, the message remains the same.” I suppose we should be thankful that Miquella didn’t leave that posse to die to some eldritch horror while (g)r*ping Leda. I understand that perhaps this is still unconvincing, and that is okay. After all, this is only an interpretation. I get that there will be people who strongly disagree with the comparison, and that is fair. Just that this one made sense to me. And if it doesn’t, I guess outside of any comparisons, what I am trying to get at is my belief that most of us will agree with Ansbach. Miquella is a monster.

Mohg probably wasn't charmed when he came to snatch him, since Miquella can't charm without getting close

The Haligtree was an attempt for Miquella to replicate the Erdtree and by doing that have the influence to make his own Order and shape the world in the way he wished to (and probably become a god as well). When he grew the Haligtree, it didn't grant him the power to do what he wanted. It is at this point in the timeline when Miquella probably 'falls' like all the other demigods. After this he suddenly sends Malenia to wage a vicious war (extremely out of character before this), he steals Mogh's heart (potentially one of the first brainwashing Miquella does that we know about), he starts brainwashing a lot of people, etc.

The Two Fingers are operating on outdated secondhand info, but the Three Fingers are *_actually insane._* The Greater Will wants _order,_ not *obliteration.*

@@Mare_Manor the greater will, *wanted* order, but having failed to achieve it now believes order is no longer possible, and now seeks to destroy everything and start over. Even if this is just the 3 fingers and not some greater malevolence. The crime Shabriri had his eyes gouged out for was slander. If he told everyone that the foundation of their faith, the communication with the greater will via the two fingers is flawed and broken, then they would simply call him a liar, defame him as it were. And failing that, call him insane. Not that burning the world down isn't insane, but we're talking about a reality where God's are beings you can see and touch the effects of. From their perspective, they have a revelation from a God, but because that revelation hurts the agenda of existing power structures, it's condemned as madness.

He lost the plot when he discarded Saint Trina. After that, he became completely irredeemable.

​@@1wayroad935 yeah, you can't create an age of compassion after discarding your love.

​@@1wayroad935I'd love for you to quantify what that means. What do you mean he became irredeemable in what context and what sense exactly?

bruh

I'm not sure, how you could ever refuse that bussy.

That final sentence truly made me rethink being literate 😅 But jokes aside, I feel like Miquella wanted to just revive Radahn because he can mind control him that way - as I believe he does in the final fight. He wanted Malenia to off him, but she couldn't quite manage. However, she did cause the events that eventually lead to us killing him. And then she got ditched by her little bro as she lay rotting because Miquella told his weird cultist half brother to abduct him

@@maxeisenach1771 See my honest take on Malenia is that when she says that she she is the Blade of Miquella she genuinely believes it, and everything that entails. She sees herself as Miquella's tool to be used for the sake of his ambition, and discarded when she outlives her usefulness. You know kind of like Casca and Griffith who they are clearly based off.

Except all the fingers we see are deformed. The various 2 Fingers and the Fingercreepers are deformed, not how they are 'supposed' to be (presumably a regular 5 finger hand like the "Hands of God" they are implied to be metaphorically and literally). So she must have been messed up before she birthed the 3 Fingers if that is what happened to her. And Ymir's dialogue tells us that things were messed up from the very beginning. He might not be talking about the Golden Order and may instead be talking about everything since the Finger Mother's arrival.

I think the unfortunate part is Ranni soul killing him. Miquella saw Godwyn as the first candidate, but only his body remains

Oh no, God forbid a game have secrets.

@@theinternetsightseer2935 "Secrets" that have no hints, hidden behind mindless repetition and lock you out of quest progression if you don't somehow stumble upon them? Yeah, God should forbid such "secrets" thank you very much.

If anything, being obsessed with Miquella probably kept him and his "dynasty" from going BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD all over the Lands Between

NUH UH!

@@aidanker-foz6511 YUH UH!