Same here honestly lol, I've started to go back and watch the catch up episodes from season 1 that I haven't watched yet so I can come and watch his reaction after
It’s cute how the episode that focused on Verbal Affirmations started with Kirk asking if we noticed his haircut! In the spirit of the video: nice haircut!
She's playfully harsh because he is constantly pushing boundaries. She wants to set those boundaries firmly but doesn't want to upset him so she does it in a playful way. Is she already scared of how he acts when he is upset? Maybe subconsciously
What are some examples of Shayne pushing boundaries? I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just genuinely interested in your perspective, as it's different than mine.
@@alaricmckenzie-boone2502 Hmmm well he does try to control her at times like with the compliment thing. Saying she can't get anymore wine/champagne until she follows his demands and gives a compliment. So she retaliated by insulting him and saying it was a joke instead of telling him that giving words of affirmations all the time feels uncomfortable and not genuine for her.
@@jclyntoledo is it truly all the time if he may have never heard her say something nice without asking? Just throwing that out there. If my partner said I was a piece of shit that would take me a few compliments to recover from.
Exactly!! She’s saying she’s firm but doesn’t want to come off as a “bitch” like society would say. A guy could say “dude you’re a piece of shit” & be firm & nobody says a word
I wonder if she's being too "playful" because she's shy, especially when the production team is around them. It might be a way to not look too emotional or draw the curtains on the window of her intimacy with Shayne.
No, it comes off as passive aggressive and has issues with boundaries. Instead of saying, "I don't like this, stop," she'll take a dig, and be like "haha just joking." Which can get old FAST. We all know someone like that. You'll be like "I'm hungry." "When are you not hungry? Hahah joking."
@@jnm2088 I can see your point. Somehow, she reminds me of myself with some of my former partners, when I felt a bit awkward and unsure of my feelings at first. I don't pretend that it must exactly be what is going on with her, it just felt familiar.
I agree that it's the point you made and also more than that. In the reunion one of Shane's issues with her seemed to be this one. So I think this kind of behavior happened even when filming crew was not there. When I first this behavior in her my first assumption was that maybe she thinks Shane is out of her league physically. He looks like football players and she might have thought she doesn't match him physically. She's attractive and sexy for sure but some people can't see their attractiveness or she thought in comparison to Shane she's not sexy or attractive. So I thought this behavior came of insecurity and that she instantly built a wall. She was so well-spoken and seemed confidence before seeing Shane and after seeing him the confidence wasn't there anymore.
The episode with Natalie’s parents I think really “explains” her behavior. You can see that she is the same way with her dad and her parents also tease each other in a similar way. I think for her it’s just the way she grew up showing affection. Unfortunately, I don’t think Shayne knows that and also just really likes to receive complements, so it ended up not being a good combination
I’m surprised that Natalie chose/wanted Shayne. Even during the blind dates, I as an introvert would have been exhausted/overwhelmed by him even though I’m able to match my energy with most normal extroverts when I’m into them.
Natalie said she wanted to be more like him. That's usually a driving factor for every person when dating someone, they have some traits we wish we had ourselves.
Shayne’s personality and mannerisms trigger so many red flags in my brain, probably from my own past negative experiences with his type. There is a certain cocky aggressive energy that makes me feel really unsafe when I watch him, especially those moments where he has “crazy eyes”. If I were Natalie, I would probably try and not feed his ego at all either, because with my past experience with these types of people, the more cocky they get the more aggressive they get as well.
Personally I always saw Shayne as a very "toxic" and explosive guy, and thought that Natalie was just trying to set boundaries in order to lower his cocky aggresive energy... I'm actually surprised that Dr Honda seems to only notice Natalie's red flags🧐
@Catita💖 lol I think Dr. Honda has been pretty objective about both of their toxic traits. Shayne definitely has issues but Natalie also could totally spiral down to be emotionally abusive if she's constantly "jokingly" insulting her partner. I'm also not a fan of jokingly hitting your partner. At the end of the day, they exacerbate each other's worst traits.
@@catita2408 I recently watched his videos on season 1 and I realized new things about mark because of it. But he also never said anything about Jessica and claim to forget ambers name
Shayne: "you should brag about how a guy treats you" Also Shayne: "treats her like garbage by calling her another girl's name and finding a way to become upset with her about it"
@@MsDesiree39 he also asked her to be his girlfriend and then went into another pod and flirted with the other girl asking her what she's wearing and expecting to continue that relationship
Projecting my own experiences out here… When someone constantly wants sex and only talks about comments on appearance, one of the ways to deescalate is to make a playful but slightly mean comment that shuts “the mood” down. He’s not listening to her queues that she doesn’t want it to only be physical, and won’t let up on the sexual comments which is really embarrassing if you are a private person. He wants sex, and she wants an emotional connection first. It makes you feel like they only value for looks
Yes, exactly how I interpreted it. She is not being cold/standoffish, she is de-escalating the sexually charged situation (for whatever reason) in a way that still seems playful, because not every man reacts well to "No." She is keeping it light/fun while diffusing the topic without opening herself up for criticism for being too serious or prudish.
I haven't watched the shows so I'm only seeing the clips but it comes off like she's being harshly "joking" vs shutting it down. I haven't seen the clips asking for sex all the time. He said from the beginning he prefers lots of compliments. I think if she said anything nice about his personality it would mean just as much as comments about his looks. But again I haven't seen the whole interaction and could be missing stuff. If he was demanding sex and asking for positive comments purely on his looks everytime I could understand needing to shut it down
Also, in the pods with Shaina he was talking about his sex drive. He said something like "I could do it all day" and asking her if she was ready for that. So I could see that she feels a little bit pressured. But I might be projecting her because I had some really bad experiences with that kind of stuff. When he talked about these things to Shaina I got very scared, even though they were both into it
They always talked about Shane being confident, but I always thought his obsession fishing for compliments came off very insecure. I thought Natalie's dead pan humour was a great response, compliments should be heartfelt and spontaneous when she means it, not demanded for.
This might be culturally normal, and tbh I don't like Shane for all sorts of reasons, but the idea that we shouldn't ask for compliments and they should be "natural" seems a little unhealthy to me? I understand being leery of someone depending on me for their self esteem, but asking for compliments is a pretty mild thing. Shane is a bit codependent and insecure but I think the way through that is actual communication not shutting things down obscurely. I think gut reaction to "not seem insecure" can lead to not getting your needs met and general misery.
I am a person who wants to hear the good stuff too. Sometimes when someone is joking this way with me it makes me feel bad and you want some positive feedback to balance it out.
I agree. I could be triggered but he seemed needy. People who fish for compliments come off as needy to me. But I totally get what Dr.Kirk is saying. She seems insecure also. Almost like there's something neither of them is saying
Lia I totally agree. Plus everyone has different love languages and his is affirmations. Nothing wrong with that Natalie's humour wasn't the same as his and that caused issues. They both need to work on things. Him more. He also is grieving his Father and shouldn't have gotten on this show while grieving. It's too much.
One suggestion: you can increase the speed of the streaming to like 1.25x I find that I can get through a show quicker and still get the full Effect. 1.5x can be too fast, but it really helps when you're in a time crunch or lack patience
As someone who has executive dysfunction issues plus always being strapped for time I do this trick a lot. 😂😂 sometimes it's the only way I'll pay attention.
The way that Natalie reacts could be a cultural thing. Lots of Korean American families are not super vocal about giving compliments or outwardly expressing their feelings of love for one another. In fact, we can be more open about it to another party than the personal involved. I'm not saying that this is the best communication strategy, but it's a very familiar pattern for lots of people, and displays of emotion in certain ways are a little too embarrassing for some people. That being said, it might not be a cultural thing, but I definitely think it could be read that way.
Definitely agree with this. I'm not saying it's a great communication style, just it's hard to verbally express affection if you didn't grow up with that environment
That would explain why she went on BRAGGING to the other women in the pods about her and Shayne being each other’s top pick, and then bragging on another day about him asking her to be his girlfriend. She constantly did it with the camera too, when doing the commentary section. It was like she couldn’t see any imperfections in Shayne, to the point of infatuation, and like she thought of him higher than herself. Only he didn’t know it. Two faces of the same coin.
@@virginiabyron that’s just a normal reaction. Someone you like likes you back you feel excited and want to share the good news. She likes the idea of love & overlooked red flags about Shayne.
@@Aphrodite01 Yes, but you probably missed my last line. "Only he didn't know it". The way they edit it, we only see her happiness and excitement when she is talking to others about the relationship, not to Shayne. To the point that it can come off as if she is bragging to others, but taking him for granted. So I thought it was interesting that someone pointed it out as a cultural thing, because I can see it in my own culture at times. "Bragging" is exactly what he was asking for. Which is odd, but hey, to each their own. Shayne's multiple red flags are a whole other topic lol
Being playfully harsh like that is a common way for women to deal with unwanted sexual attention from men because there are a lot of social consequences and possible physical danger in just saying no. I’m not sure why Natalie is using it here, though. He may be too forward for her, or she may just have come to believe that’s what flirting is.
That sorta playful half-truth communication style that Natalie uses I think is a safe way to communicate during serious conversations. I have found it to be emotionally risky to be serious when a partner is being jokey about a serious topic. There's a HUGE "stop taking yourself so seriously" culture in the current dating world, in my opinion. Being serious, even in a kind way, I've found is met with ridicule often.
Yes, exactly how I interpreted it. She is not being cold/standoffish, she is de-escalating the sexually charged situation (for whatever reason) in a way that still seems playful, because not every man reacts well to "No." She is keeping it light/fun while diffusing the topic without opening herself up for criticism for being too serious or prudish.
That's ridiculous. If you can't expect from your partner, the person whom you're willing to marry btw, to accept your "no, let's not for now " as it is, then why tf are you even bothering with the whole relationship? "Oh I have to do some necessary acrobating just to not come off as serious and prude" I'm sorry what? She's basically digging into him every which way as well which, done often enough, will in fact harm his self esteem which tells she doesn't care for him genuinely.
There are people who take themselves too seriously and there are people who want to invalidate other people's feelings because they can't deal with it. Best to find a partner who understands that.
Yeah, idk if it’s now particularly or if people have always just been this way; everything needs to have this air of levity. For more introspective or serious people, that can leave them feeling isolated. I don’t think that’s necessarily what’s going on here though. They’re both kinda weird and insecure, but not in a compatible way
His face looks in pain much of the time, mouth downturned, anxious, searching. He is NOT secure. He is very easily triggered. I dont see what she sees in him, with her personality type. They dont seem matched. It seems to me that she definitely wants to have a spontaneous unfolding of a relationship with him spending time, and he seems to be having this list of things that need to be ticked off and he’s so unsure that he’s pressuring her to give disingenuous remarks. The whole thing is a total turn off I completely get where she’s coming from. And I don’t think she’s being mean she’s basically saying to him, you’re disrespecting me and you’re being a super needy immature. I think Natalie is super intelligent and very quick with a tongue, she’s just responding to his inappropriate, awkward, really uncomfortable behavior. Egads
Totally agree. I think Natalie just kept trying to tell herself she liked Shane and it was very frustrating seeing her still go for him after all he put her through
I was in a relationship in my 20s that was based on teasing. It devolved to insults and we lost respect for each other. It can turn mean quickly. Currently, I'm in a relationship where there is some teasing, but I have strong boundaries and we have intimate serious moments. He was much more into the teasing at the start of the relationship and I did have to have some conversations about my views that it's dangerous territory. Under it all he's a pleaser and wanted to rise to the occasion to meet at a healthier place. I also have to be aware when I'm encouraging it. When we start going into territory I bring it out in the open and have only had to say twice in 8 months that it feels disrespectful and we course correct. In my 30s I have the language to express my needs and boundaries without going on the attack. I have to be careful I do not get defensive and keep it respectful.
I personally don't like teasing because it reminds me too much of the experience of being bullied all the time. I guess I can seem "uptight" and weird for wanting honesty and just plain language. Good on you for having a conversation and boundaries on the topic!
The other day I was teasing my boyfriend and he seriously responded with, "That sounds like a criticism." I explained that I wasn't indirectly criticizing him, and that my tease was completely unserious and I explained it fully. I think it's important to communicate when there is lack of clarity on what the purpose of the teasing is.
The other day I was teasing my boyfriend and he seriously responded with, "That sounds like a criticism." I explained that I wasn't indirectly criticizing him, and that my tease was completely unserious and I explained it fully. I think it's important to communicate when there is lack of clarity on what the purpose of the teasing is.
When my teens want to talk to me, they always ask for my attention. Then I stop what I’m doing and face them directly. I always thought that was weird because I don’t particularly like doing that. But then I realized, anytime I really wanted to talk to them so that they HEARD me, I would hold their hands and say, I have something important to say, could you please give me your attention. I did that when they were toddlers or young kids because you know their attention is all over the place. But it was never for serious convos, just like please look at me while I’m talking to you…we are leaving and you need to get your shoes on right now. Trivial things like that. But now they are 15-19 and they come to me and say, hey mom, can I have your attention please? Lol when they want to talk…even about heavy stuff, they want me to look them directly in the eye. I don’t know why I feel awkward when I’m the one that started it 🤷🏻♀️ I’m used to it now but in the beginning I was the one wanting to drive in a car or talk to them while I did the dishes etc lol
This is so sweet. It's great that you raised them to clearly communicate their needs, and for them to feel safe/respected enough by you giving them your full and complete attention when asked.
Oh my god thats the sweetest thing ever. I learned to hold hands and look eye to eye during conflicts from my boyfriend and it honestly makes you rethink how important it is to be right. Its like a physical way of communicating "I'm on your side, what you say is important." Please keep doing it, eye contact is becoming harder to hold among my generation.
My guess is Natalie was being playfully harsh because she was insecure about her looks. She mentioned something about being her "ordinary little self" or something like that, and she kept going on about how she thought Shayne was hot as sh*t, so I think she might have felt intimidated.
Yup. She thought that she was the hot one when they were in the pods (because personality wise she is the hottest person on the show true facts) but when she saw his stereotypical male hunky looks she was like fuck I am outmatched and it did absolutely give it a weird vibe
eh when he says “i love you so much more because you’re beautiful” i think that would have upset me too🥲 she wanted someone to accept her for what’s inside and he is missing that point. beauty is fleeting. if he had said something like “ i fell in love with who you are but it’s a plus that you are beautiful” i believe she would have reacted better
Yes you put it well. And he did say some pretty shallow things when he wasn't sure what she looked like (the missing front tooth thing) which is a bit ironic to me since he needs reassurance a lot
He did say he fell in love with her because of who she is though...he literally said that. Then he said he loves her even more now that they're in person, and because she's beautiful.
@@carr0760 I think people are blind with disdain for him. Natalie is "playful" because she's shy, Shayne asks for compliments and therefore "superficial" because he's bad. It can't possibly be because he also has relational issues. blegh.
@@carr0760 I think the distinction comes from the wording. Each phrase has different subtext or interpretations. When someone says they love you more BECAUSE you’re beautiful, it implies that being beautiful is very important to them and that they would love you less if you ever become less beautiful. I think Natalie in particular would have disliked this because she came into the pods hoping to take looks out of the dating equation. If you say beauty is just a bonus, you imply that it doesn’t affect your love for them but you can appreciate that aspect of them. I’m not sure if I’m getting my point across, but i hope that helps :)
I get the feeling that being a relationship with Shayne could drive his partner crazy. He's so sensitive and needs constant praise, and when he's not getting it he'll turn it around and get mad at the partner. He acts like a very young kid?
I had an ex who constatly wanted praise and actively DEMANDED it (even for the size of his manhood), but would barely give compliments away. He would become extremely disappointed, sad or angry for some innocent jokes, and make me feel bad for it, but had no issues being nasty to me. It was the first red flags of a very unhealthy relationship. After a series of very concerning and abusive behaviors from him, I came to the (unverified) hypothesis that he has some degree of narcissistic disorder, and I'm wondering the same about Shayne.
@@charlottedubergersani4715 Then it's apparent you don't know much about narcissism. We never see Shayne belittling Natalie, despite him being belittled all the time, which is actually impressive. Wanting praise is not at all wrong by itself, his love language is words of affirmation and he's clearly feeling rejected by her, so he needs it extra.
Yep. I dropped a friend for the same reason. And I was not the first friend she had lost. When you can make everyone else the butt of the jokes but yourself it's a red flag.
I just gotta say, especially now knowing how bad the copyright thing is, it is super impressive the amount of content you put out regularly. I enjoy it all. Thanks so much!
Coming from a Asian background, I understand a lot of her behaviours: giving and receiving compliments sometimes feel extremely uncomfortable and unnatural to me, to a point where I give out passive aggressive responses.
As someone whose love language is teasing, maybe I can give a little insight. I’m a people pleaser and recovering codependent. I’m also a perfectionist. I was raised in a household that demanded perfection and didn’t give a lot of words of affirmation (other than praise for my accomplishments) or physical affection. Being “nice” is my shield. When I get a compliment, it feels like “ok yeah sure you’re supposed to say that” or I’m suspicious that someone wants something from me and they’re trying to butter me up. Especially physical compliments; I always feel like they’re just trying to get sex out of me. I also wonder, when someone is overly complimentary, “do they even KNOW me?!” And I feel like I now have this expectation to live up to. If someone is like “you’re the funniest person I know!” I go “fuck, now I’ve gotta maintain this place in their mind.” But teasing? Teasing gives me butterflies. And it’s because it shows we’ve reached a stage that takes us past pleasantries and obligations. It shows that you have seen, acknowledged, and accepted not only the things you like about me but ALSO my flaws. If you’re teasing me, and still with me, it shows that you are aware of my shortcomings but want to laugh about them with me instead of shaming me for them, or rejecting me for them. It now bonds us in a way where we are equals, we are comfortable. All pretenses are down and we can just fully accept everything about each other: warts and all. And if I’ve reached the stage where I will completely open up and give you a real compliment that goes beyond “oh that haircut looks nice on you!” And goes deep into how much someone means to me? That’s a very precious gem that means “I am giving this to you and it shows I’m in this with you for life.” When someone forces the words from me by fishing, it feels like I’m being robbed and I viscerally hate it; it makes me want to punch back with “you’re a piece of shit” 😂🤦🏻♀️ Is this healthy? Probably not. I have lots of problems haha. But I saw myself in Nathalie and seeing her being so criticized for it made me really look deep.
Natalie's level of teasing would wound me very deeply. Being complimented, especially in a culture that really seems allergic to compliments, makes me feel seen and appreciated, so I'm definitely the polar opposite.
Same. My husband and I tease a lot. I don't tease and joke around with people I'm not close to. I only tease people I LOVE. But it depends on the person. My mom and I tease each other a lot but my younger siblings are a bit more sensitive so we don't. I'm more sensitive than my husband and he's more quiet so I tease him more lmao. But he knows I adore him. I'm obsessed with him and he never doubts my love. Plus when we get a good zinger in, we literally laugh til we cry
When I was dating through tinder, I remember being really comfortable talking and connecting with people over text. I found it really easy to share vulnerable feelings with them. But when we met in person things were really uncomfortable, as if I was on a date with a total stranger.
Amazing commentary as usual. When I watched the show I couldn't understand why Natalie was communicating the way she was, and the only way I could explain it to myself was to compare it to the practice of "negging", but it didn't feel right. The theory of the pods making it easier to be vulnerable and the comparison with teenagers in a car make total sense to me. If I put myself in her shoes, I also think there's something about being with a man who's taller and stronger and who wants sex from you that is scary, even when he's attractive. The pods mean that women can be vulnerable to the men without feeling in danger in some way. I know it's f'ed up to feel "in danger" just by talking to a man, but that's definitely something I've felt before so maybe that's playing here.
Definitely!! Shayne is scary, not just his size but also his bodylanguage and how he reacted when upset in the pods... i suspect subconsciously she's already a bit scared and is trying to set boundaries but hides it behind playfulness Also he was almost begging/demanding sex cause iTs HiS bIRtHdAY how incredibly embarrassing and toxic
@@gennybee coercive yes, I agree, I have never and would never do something like that; I actually didn't even think it was something other men still did. Sex should not be a reward, nor an entitlement.
I think it's fine to communicate your needs but I also think the frequency he does it can be exhausting for most people. Nathalie's harsh treatment also seems like it would get exhausting if you don't adjust to it.
He asked for it frequently because all his attempts to get her to reassure him failed. If Natalie was just honest about how she actually felt (like she was when interviewed by the camera crew) I think he would have felt secure in their relationship, too. And those fishing attempts would have been much, much less frequent.
@@andaredvex he’s excessive and annoying doing that. The amount of validation and reassurance he expects is unhealthy and shows he’s not secure in himself. You can’t force someone to constantly say nice things. Even when she said one nice comment he wasn’t happy with it and expects more. It’s never enough for him because he doesn’t think he’s enough. Natalie jokes in that way and she does it often which is annoying. It’s clear it’s unnatural to constantly compliment someone that’s fishing and begging her to say great things about him. If she feels that way she’ll say it when she wants to. He wants instant gratification it’s crazy. They both have different personalities and are not compatible.
@@Aphrodite01 While all that is probably true, I'm just saying that it's a vicious circle and Natalie's behavior fuels his insecurities. And you can be harsh playful without crossing the line, but she just doesn't really get where that line is. Like when she said 'you're a piece of shit'. That's just plain mean. And she doesn't balance this out with verbal affection in any way. I think she's over the line a lot of the times, and with someone like Shayne, it's contraproductive. If you love someone you can adjust these things by just watching their reaction. They both have issues and as you've said it, are not compatible. I just felt that much general blame was put on Shayne but none on Natalie before dr. Honda's analysis.
@@andaredvex I think for me, I still see the “reality” of this show and Shayne feels fairly disingenuous and drums up for the cameras. It seems like he is fairly aware that he looks and acts like a tool but he doesn’t really seem to do anything to stop the latter from a genuine place. For example, he tends to get very angry quickly, also when he played off the shaina thing with Natalie in a way that made it seem like it’s her fault… instead of self inflecting on why those things happened he seems to use this “I need compliments” (something totally reasonable to need) as a way of projecting fragility which counters the “tool” nature. Tough to say because the show does a poor job of giving full context I am sure
@@andaredvex I can see why Natalie responds that way because he wants excessive amounts of validation and she doesn’t want to inflate his big ego. If words of affirmation is his love language ok but the amount he needs isn’t normal and he has deep rooted issues. If he’s secure in himself he won’t need to hear so many things every sentence and convo. That drives any sane person crazy. She is sarcastic but the amount of times shes does it affects him. For both I think it’s what they’re doing and the FREQUENCY. She’s more reserved and when he says things that bother her she responds in that manner. He cares too much about how he’s perceived he doesn’t focus on how to naturally get that reaction and understand how she feels. She was willing to make so many changes to accommodate him but he is stubborn and doesn’t understand how she feels. He should be more flexible too.
I can’t speak for Natalie but I see a lot of myself in her response to his need for verbal affirmations. Growing up I knew instinctively that my parents loved me but love and praise were not things commonly shared out loud. Even though my marriage is stable and healthy, to this day I am wildly uncomfortable when people praise me or get too wordy besides a simple “I love you” and I have to resist the urge to do something like make a joke or playfully slap my husband to deflect or release the tension I am feeling. I also show love in ways that people don’t understand, like cooking, buying something that made me think of the person,or checking in to make sure they got home safe.
This is me also, 100%. Plus, I know it’s my baggage speaking, but Shayne is sooooo annoyingly needy! He’s like a Stage 5 Clinger that’s in it only for comforting his ego!
some people use verbal to show love.. including hug/kiss... but most asian love is shown through daily action.. being responsible, do house chores.. being together watching tv even in silent.. etc.. that's love language as well..
I actually don't see her as being harsh at all. She feels like the shy woman that got with an ego driven jock like guy that constantly needs to be put on a pedistal. I don't think his need for validation is wrong, but I do think he is very incredibly aware of how hes seen by others. He seems like he wants to be noticed and feel validated from others through her. I think shes..actually trying to protect herself in a way, yet accomodate to him and its missing with him, because its not at the levels he wants it in. Or he takes it as her not liking him. Plus, the cameras. I think shes hyper aware theyre not alone now.
I get VERY triggered by her. Being so harsh, telling him he is a piece of shit... that had me PTSDng bad. Why would you EVER say that to your partner. That was aggressive and mean. I am NOT a fan of Shayne at all, and couldn't be with someone so explosive, but that doesn't mean that what she is saying is ok.
To add to the difficulties in verbal communication: Shayne's facial expressions throughout this give me a lot to think about. Especially when they have the conversation about how she shows her care for him around other people, the look on his face is really off putting to me and almost comes off as aggressive.
Hah! One of the reasons I never learned to drive as a teenager was because I was extremely reluctant to let go of my time with my mom driving me places in her car. Between not having the distractions of all the things she and I had to do at home, and the fact that we couldn't look at each other which meant we were reacting to what the other person was actually saying instead of the expression on the other person's face, and the fact that being in the car meant that we were trapped together for a certain period of time so neither of us could go storming off (I, as the teenager, did most of the storming off), most of our productive communication happened while driving me places. My mom is still very busy and hard to pin down, and as an adult now when I really need to talk to her about something, I'll make up a reason I need to go on errands with her so we can be trapped in the car together.
Oh man, this is so relatable to me. I can count on one hand the truly vulnerable and serious conversations I have had with my mom that *didn't* take place in a car. I still prefer having those conversations in the car when my mom is driving me home (as an adult, I live 1 hour away from her and sometimes she drives me home at the end of a visit instead of me taking the train/bus) 😩😩
I can definitely relate wow. My dad is not a big talker and not always emotionally available but during our 45 minute ride home from work/college we had a lot of conversations that we probably wouldn't have had face to face. Intense Eye contact is daunting for me and I feel like I'm more open with people when that aspect is eliminated and I think he felt the same way. To the introverts out there: try the car conversions please! It will change your life!
I'm surprised how many people are defending or brushing off Natalie's joking/harshness. I think people are biased cuz they don't like Shayne but like Natalie and don't acknowledge she too can have negative attributes. Also I have had similar situations, both my partner and best friend are people who need lots of words of affirmation and I'm opposite. I don't feel comfortable giving compliments and have done things like Natalie in trying to joke it off. But after having many conversations throughout the years with the people I love I understand how hurtful it can be for them not to receive the compliments. While usually Natalie is a very mature person and Shayne is not, in this situation I think Natalie is being immature and should listen to her partner's needs.
Hearing you talk about the car therapy is so weird, makes me think back to being a teenager and my social worker driving me around places. I would talk to her the most in the car as well. It does just feel like 'hanging out' - feels weird looking back knowing it was probably a calculated move from her lol
My ex would do this playful poking fun thing. If I did it back he would then play up being insulted, but he'd do it with such a straight face, so deadpan that I could never tell whether or not he meant it. I was always scared that I had actually hurt his feelings, so I'd be really uncomfortable whenever he started in with the jokes (which was often.) The thing is....that a lot of that time, he actually was upset. He would dish out the jokes and be so harsh, but if I returned a volley 9 times out of 10 he would actually be upset. I finally brought it up with him and he realised that it was actually a defense mechanism...he's avoidant and I think this kept some distance between him and the rest of the world, however if you returned a joke, he would be triggered because his mom has DID and her alter was verbally abusive towards him as a child. After that we agreed to never do that kind of thing again because it just wasn't healthy.
Thank you for sharing. This gave me some insight into a person I'm currently seeing. He has what seems like an avoidant attachment style and he makes a lot of jokes at my expense. When I rebuttal he gets mad/distant but when I tell him that it hurts my feelings I'm "too sensitive". That fear of the conversation and how to proceed after the jokes have been made is very real. I didn't realize how much this engages my attachment injuries and anxiety as a whole. Thanks for opening my mind to some new concepts.
@@cclee6987 you're welcome. Glad it was helpful. I should add that we were both in individual therapy at the time, so we didn't just get over it on our own. It was something he discussed with his therapist to figure out the dynamic. I don't think we would have been able to sort it out on our own.
Good on you. With people like this, it's not worth the effort for me because they refuse to think that their jokes could be mean but YOUR jokes are just so cruel.
@@roc2588 I would have missed out on a lot of really good stuff if I hadn't put in the effort, and he would have missed out on a lot of healing. It was a defense he didn't even know he had, and it was all wrapped up in his trauma. Verbal abuse and love are tied together for him because that's how he grew up. He didn't know because he had never let someone get close enough to see it/experience it before. He is profoundly damaged; he's not trying to be a jerk.
That's so cool. Good luck with your studies, fellow deserving listener ✨💕 I'm doing my master's in social work and I really like watching these videos and learning more about different communication styles etc!!
If Shayne is so focused on his own emotions and experience (constantly, it seems) is he really able to step outside himself and notice Natalie’s needs? That could be the reason her resistance. Also I think she’s just kind of awkward in general
Sometimes I think everyone still has Natalie's back when shayne was open about not being okay with playful harshness. He drew that boundary and she kept breaking it
@@Coastpsych_fi99 he TOLD her he needed to feel secure. He TOLD her he wanted compliments. If she didn't/couldn't handle that she should not have continued a relationship with him. She should have encouraged him to pursue a relationship with Shania. But to know that someone is vulnerable and needs something and to do the very opposite is to weaponize their weakness. And it's not anything you should do to someone you claim to love.
No you can see the change over the episodes in the way she was with him, something that is natural to you cannot change overnight but you can see she tried to make the effort.
I think they have different ways of flirting. Some pple playfully poke and jab at each other and some are super sweet and effusive. I'm like Shayne in that sense, I need sweet words and affirmation. But Natalie seems willing to learn what he needs, which is what matters.
i've seen a fair amount of people criticizing shayne for liking compliments/verbal affirmation. imo shayne has a lot of behaviors worth criticism, but i don't think there's anything wrong with wanting your partner to tell you they find you attractive or think you're funny. it's also understandable to me that he would feel hurt by her playful jabs if that's all he's getting.. that would take a toll on me, too. some banter is fun! but i need genuine affection to feel like someone enjoys having me around.
i agree, there is definitely nothing wrong with having that want! i think shayne’s desire for it stems from a past insecurity that he is displacing on a romantic partner. natalie will never be able to satiate his insecurity if he isn’t healing his emotional wounds as well. i can see how it is frustrating for her to constantly reassure him. also his comment about how women should “brag about how men treat them, not their purses or clothes” felt strangely pointed in my opinion lol
@@lavinder11 that's fair. i don't think he's asking to be worshipped but i could be wrong hahah. i definitely think he would work out better with someone who loves to gush! natalie just isn't that person
@@sun_yu_lu yeah that's kind of my read on it too. i def agree that he could do well to work on soothing himself at times, not many people want to be constantly pestered for reassurance and that'll probably turn off more girls than just natalie lol. especially on top of his other issues with emotional regulation
Thank you so much for all of the time you put into these videos for us. We are so appreciative. Also thank you for explaining the difficulties behind editing with Love is Blind clips. I value the content you provide even more now.
I feel like being with shayne would be exhausting, having to constantly compliment someone and boost their ego can be hard. I also think he gives her compliments when he wants to hear them back, he seems to get more upset when she doesn’t respond by fawning over him.
It's equally exhausting to be in a relationship with a girl that constantly belittles you "jokingly" resulting in this need for validation. He might have a lot less need for validation if he wasn't being put down every second by her. Especially as a man, he will be receiving a lot less compliments than a woman is. His need is justified.
I don’t have any concrete reason to think this, but I’ve always gotten the vibe that Natalie is insecure about how extroverted and good-looking Shayne is (even though she’s also very good-looking, and it seems like based on her relationships with the other girls on the show that she’s popular and well-liked). So when he makes bids for her to tell him she’s attracted to him or has fun with him, it’s especially hard for her to say those things.
@@lubnan08 He’s not my type either but I think he might be considered conventionally attracted. 🤣 I agree with OP though that Natalie does not come across as confident. Something about her personality and the way she presents. Even her constant joking around, and being playfully harsh kind of comes across as a defence to hide her own insecurity.
When I was a teenager and I was attracted to someone I definitely upped the snarky banter. It was absolutely a way to protect my vulnerability. When I was a little older and more secure I stopped this. Playfulness is fine but you do need to be vulnerable for a relationship to work. It comes down to 1) If I let my walls down this person could hurt me 2) if I don’t let my guard down I will miss out on the closeness and love available. You have to make the decision to face the fear. Things will come up to worry you. You have no control over it. It’s ok to be worried, just talk it through and don’t dwell on it. I never used to understand why people thought ‘It’s better to have loved and lost than never loved at all’. It’s true in a lot of cases.
What I found so interesting - and was curious to see how it’d turn out - is that during the time they were secluded and “in the pods”, Shayne told the guys on two occasions that he doesn’t like when females are “too playful”, or “joke around too much”, even calling out that (in his opinion) when women joke around too much in this way, they start to come off as mean. He said that in the beginning before we really saw him connect with Natalie - and again towards the middle after they had established their connection. I find it fascinating that he paired up with Natalie, who appeared to be the most “playful” in the way that he doesn’t appreciate.
Rewatching these clips, I wonder if part of the problem with their teasing is not knowing each other well. I love teasing, but healthy teasing requires a level of intimacy. What I've noticed in having a lot of teasing relationships with loved ones is that you need a lot of familiarity for healthy teasing. There has to be a foundation of trust and respect so things are less likely to be misread as malicious. Plus, it helps to know the other person well enough to understand their traumas and insecurities so you don't say something hurtful. If you tease someone without knowing them, you run the risk of crossing a line in a way that triggers them, even if that wasn't your intent. Shayne and Natalie both seem to have insecurities (as we all do) so giving each other a bunch of shit before they had more time to lay that groundwork of love and compassion is a huge risk of undermining their security in the relationship.
I'm not sure if this became apparent this early in the season, but at some point Natalie talks about being attracted to Shayne because he's the opposite to her; that he's confident, a quality she thinks she doesn't have. In reality, I think they both have low self-confidence in common but it manifests in different, confusing and sometimes harmful ways. It's also concerning that neither of them seem to really listen to / observe their partner to understand that their partner is actually not confident.
I’m all for people wanting/asking for compliments, but I feel like Shayne is lacking some self-confidence and so he’s seeking validation strictly through other people. Which is good, but I think he needs to be straightforward about it by saying something like “sometimes I get insecure and worry about how you feel about me, so if you could help and give me more reassurance that would make me feel better”
It is never "good" to seek validation through others people. We all do it at some point, but as we mature and hopefully grow wiser, we learn that doing that is very unhealthy if you take it too far.
@@desiderata333 I disagree, Dr. Honda has talked about this before too. We gain corrective experiences through our relationships with others. When they provide us validation it can help build self esteem. Eventually with enough self esteem we need a lot less external validation, but everyone still needs some. This is good, however, it can become unhealthy when you don’t recognize that it’s a lack of self esteem and that you need to be aware of that so you can communicate your needs and eventually get to the point where you need less external validation.
If Shayne wasn't so insecure he would be a good catch. The advice he gave shake was great. The way he handled shaina on the beach was good. Unfortunately his immaturity when he couldn't hit a baseball and always needed validation from Natalie was his downfall.
i know this isn't true for everyone, but i tend to interpret jokes like the ones natalie was making (specifically the ones about his appearance) as thinly veiled criticisms. i would feel rejected by her if i were in shayne's position.
I think Natalie would have played far less aggressively hard to get if it hadn’t been for the altercation they encountered in the pods. She probably felt rejected and hurt by that, and in turn felt she needed to have a guard up.
I actually think Natalie was taking into account Shane’s request and honestly answered the question with no criticism or playfulness. It was just subdued because she’s shy and being vulnerable like that is new to her. He didn’t see it that way though and I bet that push back resulting in him walking off left her feeling like she can’t win either way.
It's interesting how much credit the therapist gives Shayne. I find him to be a narcissistic baby. I would react much the same way as Natalie. The more needy and pushy he is, the more I'd pull away.
The times I used this style of connecting through playful provocation in relationships were times in which the relationship wasn't fulfilling my needs and I couldn't admit it to myself. It was a way of projecting my anger of the situation towards them, an insidious way to make them feel how I felt.
It really truly depends on what you're teasing about, obviously if it's always a way to vent or it's only half a joke because of resentment that's never going to be healthy, but plenty of people having playful banter and NEVER does it turn toxic. The issue here is Natalie meant some of what she said ie the POS comment, it's not a stretch to me that she'd be hurt he called her the wrong name and had lied about his bond with Shaina to save face. But she is shy or scared of his reaction (or my opinion a combination of both of these things) so she joked about it, not saying their situation is good or right or healthy, just it's best not to paint all relationships with similarities with the same brush.
@@Shortkingharry Absolutely! That's why I talked about my experience with it! I reckon that there are a lot of things we don't know about her situation. And as you said, the option of being scared of opening her heart this fast makes a lot of sense also, since they are rushed into the relationship. That sensation of vertigo can sure be overwhelming.
I understand your point with Natalie's 'strategy' nto being effective or potentially hurtful with him. But for me, when I watched the show I just thought: Okay why does he need so much affirmation? And why doesn't he get that she is just playing with him a bit? I have a problem with showing affection 'normally' and always disguise it as a joke or make a joke after having said something romantic. My partner understands gut I get that it can be hurtful for the other person. I just want to say that one, I think his need for reassurance would make me irritated and two, some people are like that and like to joke around whilst being affectionate.
It sounds like she had never said anything positive/serious once they left the pods though. It was all jokes and insults. So, if he asked for affirmation, she said one nice thing and then dozens more jokes and insults it makes sense that he would feel insecure and need more affirmation. Did you mean the one nice thing or do you mean the 50 insults?
"Some people are like that and like to joke around whilst being affectionate." Well, in the same way, Some people need more assurance than others. Some people prefer affection without the harsh playfulness. The key is in making the effort to understand each other, make adjustments and compromise. Looks like they had difficulty with that, but Shayne seems to have other issues as well.
Even though I also find him kind of annoying, I still think he should be allowed to have his preferences. If he wants to be with someone who will compliment him, or give him words of affirmation frequently, he should be allowed to have that preference. And then it’s up to the other party to decide if this is a compromise they’re willing to make or not.
@@ranma9823 Exactly this. Shayne has a plethora of issues, but all people seem to hate him for is his, completely justified, need for validation. His gaslighting is much more worthy of cricism. (He did however own up to that in the reunion)
He wants a combo of Shaina & Natalie = Shaina's doting "guy's girl" personality but with the calm intellectual presence of Natalie. He's so focused on getting his needs met that he isn't even trying to focus on her needs. Meanwhile natalie passive aggressively derides his need for constant praise because she fundamentally doesn't respect that as a legitimate need.
This makes me realise that people might think I am harsh when I am bantering. I am a pretty sarcastic person, and I joke like Natalie does. I even thought that she was pretty funny and did not understand why Shane was getting mad. If people are uncomforble, I obviously stop bantering, but I usually thought that they just did not like this type jokes, but not that they thought it was harsh. It would be difficult for me I think, if my partener did not share that with me. 🧐 (To be clear, I am sarcastic about everyting. Me, other people, situations, ect... I am not trying to be mean when I do than, especially since I just realized it could be interpreted that way)
I am the same way in some situations/relationships. I have a few friends who are very sensitive to this style of communications and I have had to learn how to adapt my teasing to what they feel more comfortable with. Sometimes when I make new friends and we start getting closer, I will straight up ask them to tell me if they ever think I'm being harsh or if they feel bad etc. so that I can adjust. This seems to work for me pretty well 😌
Most people are turned off by that behavior so it’s something you should consider working on and being mindful of. It does come off as rude, insensitive, harsh and mean.
He’s constantly looking for compliments and someone to stroke his ego. She feels awkward about it, so she responds with I’m out of here, etc. In previous episodes, he was looking for constant bids for attention and compliments and he said some thing about just trying to have a conversation, but his conversation seems to revolve around himself and the validation he needs. I’m not saying it’s right, but I can understand how awkward that would be and how she feels the need to respond with something to shut it down.
Dr. Kirk’s insight at around 15:40 is spot on, I think this playful harshness ultimately led to a lot of problems with communication down the line, and the big fight at the end of the season.
I was really impressed with Shayne openly asking for compliments. I could see a lot of other people just hoping in their head and getting upset and passive aggressive. Natalie's responses were bothersome to me, but i feel like she's actually insecure about herself and thinks Shayne will only get a bigger head if she keeps complimenting him. She might need a lot of reassurance herself, but doesn't maybe even realize it.
I felt the same. Maybe Nathalie thinks she’s not on the attractiveness level as Shayne so for her is obvious that she likes him and so it should be obvious for him too.
I dont know if it's the same with Natalie, but I know I hate when people fish for compliments because it makes me feel like they're trying to control or manipulate my words/actions. Even if I DO think highly of someone, if I feel like they're trying to force me into saying that, I'll get stubborn and refuse to. I related to Natalie during this episode because of that, but perhaps it's a problem I share with her. I have a boyfriend who needs words of affirmation and I have no trouble giving it to him, but he doesn't push for it like Shayne does. He simply let's me know how meaningful it is when I naturally compliment him, which reminds me to do it more often. If he were being persistent in asking for it all the time, I think I would feel like he was trying to force me to feel one way or another and I would shy away from it.
i guess we can't know for sure, but i think it's possible that shayne wouldn't be asking for compliments if they were coming naturally from natalie. it sounded like she hadn't really said anything complimentary about him at all, and that's why he asked. it also didn't seem like they had this dynamic in the pods when she was more warm. but tbh i think it's more of a compatibility issue, shayne would do better with someone who likes being super verbally affectionate and natalie would do better with someone who really enjoys the banter.
I always feel trapped in the car. My mom used to wait until we were in the car to explode on us. We also got in a fight once and she started to drive us off the road. But I can see how that could be a helpful distraction for a lot of people.
The entire show, and after, I’ve been so torn on Shayne. One one hand, he does gaslight, is at times aggressive, needs outside validation, and doesn’t communicate well. On the other hand, he’s kind of all of us at times. I saw a lot of anxiety and feelings of inferiority in him. It doesn’t excuse some of his behavior, but I felt like he just really doesn’t like himself or feel good about himself.
I like this playful style of relationship. It allows you to express issues without it being made too serious or critical. It is also healthy to be able to laugh at yourself and issues.
I think it's very brave for shayne to own his vulnerability in this way. Especially for a man in our culture, we need to embrace and allow that as a culture
This was my read of the situation, too. Natalie was so nervous or uncomfortable that she came across mean. I felt super bad for Shane in this episode - I’m sure he felt so vulnerable too. To his credit, he specifically asked for affirmation that she still loved him and found him attractive (which is a vulnerable thing to do!) and she consistently responded with sarcasm and hostility. :(
I'm a lot like Natalie. It's vulnerability makes me uncomfortable so I say the opposite to what I think playfully. My husband is the same way but he definitely goes too far and hurts my feelings sometimes 🤣.
Sounds like counseling might be a great idea for you (individually or as a couple) to work on how to communicate feelings and how to allow yourselves to be more open and vulnerable. 😌
Where would I be without Dr. Kirk, watching and analyzing LIB, season 2? I DON'T WANNA KNOW 🤣! Edit: Dr. Kirk, I hope I can help you just once maybe 🤭 you could lay over the clips a kind of lighter b-roll, then you'll get ding'd less 😁 I've seen it (with a puppy b roll overplayed), it's hilarious and not distracting, but adds to the experience!
I don’t often comment on videos, but I just wanted to say I genuinely enjoy watching your content. I found you when you made your season 1 love is blind video reactions. Both seasons, I’ve just binged your reaction videos. Love it. That’s all. Thank you.
Great information about eye contact. My daughter is a SA survivor but bears so much trauma. She doesn’t look people in the eye anymore because she physically can’t. That’s how her abuser signaled her and controlled her. I only addressed it 2 nights ago and she agreed to working on it.
Especially rewatching this commentary, I was reminded of why Shayne was toxic, and even why some of his asks for affirmation are bad (eg. sex specifically), BUT I TOTALLY sympathize with his desire for verbal affirmation, and sympathized throughout this half of the show, especially dating someone who started off very teasing and roasting and feeling just hurt and rejected, and I find the people in this comments section to be incredibly harsh and unsympathetic towards verbal affirmation likely being Shayne's top love language, and I feel like he's getting flack for it because he's a guy and is being treated as weak for wanting compliments. Imo, "excessive" is relative to how much the other person roasts, and given how much she just KEPT roasting him, I think the extent of his ask for validation isn't excessive. If she did say more positive stuff (WITHOUT prompting, btw, b/c after prompting it just doesn't feel sincere), and he still kept asking her, then it could be egotistical, but his asks (at least in the clips) always seem to be in response to roasts, and I think it's fine for different people to be (un)comfortable with different levels of roasting. I hate the notion that most people in the comments have that everyone needs to just put up with endless roasting and not blink and appreciate it 🙄 I am not surprised that, at minimum, there needs to be a solid foundation of love and appreciation and comfort before someone will be okay with being roasted without it being followed up by sincere appreciation 🙄🙄🙄 For myself, I think Dr. Honda is perfectly on point, and it seems that he and his wife feel the way I do. As someone for whom verbal affirmation is a top love language, I too found myself fixating on Natalie's digs despite being a woman (so no, it's not just Dr. Honda who reacted that way b/c he's a guy, the way some comments have insinuated). I am SUPER grateful that my boyfriend was more receptive to my need for verbal affirmation and less roasting than Natalie was with Shayne, and that he even felt that being more romantic with me spilled over into him being kinder and more complimentary in interactions with others (and that he saw that as a GOOD thing!). I would have felt unhappy and unloved if I were treated the way Natalie kept roasting Shayne and I had to repeatedly ask for nice things in order to not only ever be roasted 24/7, and I would leave rather than listen to you all and just forced myself to accept Natalie's roasts because "she's entitled to express herself how she wants" - if you can't express love REMOTELY in the way your partner needs, you should break up. And while of course I would not have pulled any of the shit that Shayne did, I don't think resentment / being upset should manifest itself in contempt for the need of words of affirmation, the way it seems to for many commenters. Those are separate points that should be addressed separately.
I don't go for that kind of 'banter' either. It's bound to go left at some point. I have friends who go back n forth with partners like that dropping all the f bombs etc. I guess it works for them.
She’s Korean. In their culture gushing, complimenting, etc. are considered bad manners because you make the person feel awkward and uncomfortable. They are lost in translation.
I have such a hard time expressing myself in person, in a sit-together-and-talk-situation. They freak me out. I’m vulnerable either through text, while walking or driving. The latter 2 because focus is partially on the changing scenery, there’s less pressure to talk as we’re doing an activity. I have tried so many therapy sessions and felt they’ve been only 20% effective, as I’m so stressed out by the format. I feel I need to placate the therapist, play a role, be hyper-aware on each other’s body language, etc. I can’t focus on the actual process of me getting real help, of dissecting my psyche. It’s hard enough knowing what I feel and why, and translating that into words. The social pressure makes it 90 times worse. Then again I suspect I might be on the autistic spectrum.
@Hedgehag THANK YOU for putting my exact feelings into words. Wow! I have been exhausted with therapy because of the format and after months of sessions. It has become tiring now because I feel like I am playing a role with my therapist now too.
Thanks for the videos! Really insightful especially with regards to explaining why it seemed that Natalies behaviour changed in the pods vs outside/real world. The pods almost feel like a confessional that allow and encourage this kind of openness, which may explain why she was so vulnerable and open with him. Thats also why Shayne chose her, because he thought he was signing up for a woman who was going to give him the self esteem and affirmation that he needs. Then when she saw him plus all the cameras, I can understand why she was seemly cold, or more standoffish. Her dry sense of humor was a defense mechanism and its completely understandable but has Shayne completely confused because she was so different in the pods.
I used to be like Natalie. A combination of thinking my voice and feelings didn't matter, and a defense to keep people from getting close. It was such a defining characteristic of mine, that when I became healthier, I didn't know who I was without my "jokes." They didn't come to me anymore because I had no natural desire to say them. Thankfully, with therapy and support, I've slowly been able to start peeling back multiple layers, and my humor has started coming back without insulting people.
I think this mean behavior is purely the way Natalie flirts, it's a sort of juvenile way to flirt but I think it's pretty common. Seeing Shayne in person set off her flirt mode, and Shayne doesn't like that sort of flirting.
Totally agree with your assessment so far. I am someone, who like Natalie, likes the mean teasing kind of playfulness, I'm that way with my brother and friends. But I NEVER play this way with my boyfriend, and he doesn't do it to me either, there's a certain intimacy in a relationship that can make this hurtful instead of fun. I get enough of that kind of mean joking energy out with other people, my intimate relationship is where i can be my softer, more loving and gentle side. It's rare that I see this kind of relationship work between a couple.
This is a relationship dynamic I have with my husband where he makes the sarcastic jokes and I will play along. The only problem we had towards that dynamic was mainly him having to realize that he had to balance out being playfully mean and also be affectionate (verbal or physical or through text) because there were definitely days where the jokes he made didn’t resonate well with me (i.e. I had a bad day, or he just kept being mean too frequently or too early). Something I had to recognize was to be open and voice how I felt and let him know if he ever does push too many buttons. Another thing was to remind myself that these are jokes, and its his love language but if I needed reassurance that he didn’t mean some of his jokes I that I knew I could ask him. Finding a balance is possible, you and your partner just need to be open with one another.
