In the later “I Love Lucy” episodes Vivian seemed to look more glamorous. Paler shade of blonde, svelte, and buxom. Even more so when she became “Vivian Bagley”. In some episodes she out glamed Lucy!
Oh definitely so as Viv Bagley. To get her to come back with her the relationship was drastically altered to Vance's demands that she be more stylish and glamorous. Lucille wanted the post divorce show to spark as much magic as the original and realized she needed Vivian for that to happen. Vance even insisted in the name change expressing her displeasure with always being called Ethel by fans and people on the streets so she too demanded her own name also be the character name the same as Lucy. Best, Jurassic Jack aka Jack A.S VanNote President JAV Communicative Enterprises Inc A Multimedia Firm with interests in Film Television and Video Productions General Programming Sports Entertainment and Christian ✝️ Family Fare
Desi was the brains of the show, so I think his rendition is correct. Vivian and Lucy made a great show together. I had heard that it was in the contract that Vivian had to weigh 20 more pounds than Lucy. It's nice they became such good friends!
Yes, I heard a completely different story too. Lucy saw her in a stage performance and knew immediately that Vivian Vance must play Ethel. So that story isn't true?
For all of Lucille Ball's gifts as a performer, she was not always a good judge of talent or casting. She wanted Bea Benaderet and Gale Gordon as the Mertzes! That would have been miscasting on a major scale. Ball also got the great comic genius Madeline Kahn fired from the film version of Mame, replacing her with Jane Connell, who was an excellent performer but not on Kahn's transcendent level. This always reminded me of Helen Lawson firing the talented Neely O'Hara in Valley of the Dolls, not because O'Hara was inadequate but because Lawson was afraid the younger woman's talent would outshine her own.
I heard Lucy could be tough to work for. All business. I enjoy your videos especially the I love Lucy ones. You have a wonderful attitude. It helps those of us who are ill and need encouragement.
I've always heard it was Desi's decision. Lucy wanted to be the younger one of the two. Lucy wanted Ethyl to be more frumpy looking so she could be the younger , prettier one. It's great that they became the best of friends. Be hopeful!
I think Desi hired Vivian on the spot. He was kinda strong minded in that sense. I have been watching I Love Lucy for millions of years. And you think that the four of them were always just friends from the get-go. Interesting to find out obviously that's not the case. But in any case they made it believable to us who watch them and continue to do so. I think the friendship that Lucy and Ethel had was the same that Lucy and Vivian shared as the show progressed.
@tom kat Willuam Frawley was unique..a baseball fan..in his contract to see important games and not be avail to rehearse. he would take his pages of dialogue to memorize and sometimes did not know what the storyline was about...funny .guess he got the gist of it before 2 long .in front of a live audience.
I enjoyed the video Rick! You are a treasure trove of information! I trust this day will find you encouraged that you are so appreciated...you've created a channel that is such a blessing and you have the best subscribers!
I'm not sure who to believe. Probably Desi if Lucille wasn't sold on Vivian right away. I'm glad they became friends though. They have such chemistry! The show wouldn't be the same without them. Has anyone noticed that Hallmark has brought back I Love Lucy, but they speed it up just enough for them to sound different and look noticeably manic? I absolutely hate when they do that. How can they do that to I Love Lucy?
I hate that too. i don't watch Lucy on TV any more, I have DVD's and Blu-Rays and watch those. They speed up the show as well as cut a lot out, so they can fit in more commercials. And they don't play the ending theme, either. They cover it up with talking.
I wouldn’t be surprised f Desi’s version was true or mostly true it would add to why Lucille had the skepticism and was off putting at first. Poor Vivian tho she may have been difficult especially having to work with Frawley but they have her looking fat and frumpy and married to an old grump. Being a black n white show tho Vivian’s hair did look kinda gray I was surprised to find out when i was younger how blonde she was, if that showed on film it would have been worse for Lucy. I always appreciated Vivian/Ethel Lucy was usually a witch to her. Ethel got to turn the tables tho a few times tho in the salad dressing commercial, the Operetta and she finally got to be a real witch in Albuquerque. She did stand up to Lucy sometimes and complained but still usually got the short end of the stick.
There were so many excellent episodes of this show--and the scenes with Lucy and Ethel are top notch in those episodes--but for me, hands down the most superior episode is the Off to Florida. When they have a flat, and the girls are told that everything they need to fix it is in 'back there' (in the trunk), Ethel deadpans--'I hope she has a mechanic back there?'
I've heard both versions before neither one would lie so who knows. I've heard Lucy wanted Bea Benedaret to play Ethel that's why she seemed harsh. Vivian proved herself.
Bea Benadaret and Gale Gordon were Lucy's choices for Ethel and Fred (She'd worked with both on her radio show "My Favorite Husband") but both were contractually obligated to other shows.
@@marvinkoop5350 It's almost like serendipity, isn't it?. If Gale and Bea were chosen, the show might not have been the success that it was because the chemistry would have been totally different. It's like combining two missing ingredients in order to make the best cake you ever ate. Vivian and Bill Frawley were EXACTLY the missing ingredients that made the cake that was "I Love Lucy" the cake the most delicious ever!
@Carol Howard Because of the age difference Vivian said in an interview she should be playing Bill Frawley's daughter rather than his wife. That was what started the hard feelings between them as Bill took offense to that statement and decided to be just as mean to her as he percieved she was being to him.
I think Desi hired Vivian Vance the night he saw her. I hope your channel stays on here, it’s so good to hear these little snippets of information. God Bless
@@roberttelarket4934 Vivian and Lucy were within two years of each other, and Vivian was more attractive. In fact, she had to be dressed down as a matter of contract to avoid taking attention from Lucy.
I dont know Rick, I have heard both versions. I dont think Lucille Ball was wrong for what she said, but she also something good in Vivian Vance that made her want to keep her.
Well it would depend on how bigger stars these two were back then how well known they were etc Lucy may have been a bit upstaged by how well Vivian acted anyway that’s just my thoughts 🤭
Well I entend to believe Desi's version of the story. Don't get me wrong I have always loved Lucille Ball & I still do but there were times she was very harsh. The reason why Lucy was strict was because of Desi having affairs with different woman (which I don't blame her). She had to meet the woman first for her to give the ok because she didn't want them to look better than her. So when she saw Vivian Vance/Ethal Mertz she wasn't to thrilled to see how beautiful she was she wanted Vivian to do a few changes so she can look less attractive than her. That's why Vivian had to put some padding on to make her look bulkier or more heavy set & she had to do something with her hair. I know Lucy didn't like at her at first but when she saw how good Vivian really was she kept her & after that they became the best of friends. The reason why I know all these things was because my grandmother was the biggest fanatic of Lucille Ball, Desi Arnaz & the show I Love Lucy, she would always find information & dig deep into her favorite show. My grandmother died the same year, same month as Lucy but died 2 days after her. She always said she wanted to die when Lucy passed away & she got her wish, my grandma was only 56 years old.
so young ...and w Lucy being alot older...thx for info ..I had commented 2 re Lucy wanting to be more slim ..but Lucy was an MGM girl and model..she had that look to start with..
There is so much speculation about this, but there was actually no padding involved. Instead, Vivian wore dresses that were one size too small for her frame, in order to make her look heavier and more matronly. Vivian was actually a beautiful woman in everyday life (as well as a fabulous actress) and always more than willing to do what was necessary to make her character as perfect as she could make it. Vivian had no ego problems whatsoever. She realized that it would be hard for the television audience to believe that a beautiful woman like her was married to Fred Mertz. The optics would have been off, because Frawley would have appeared decades older than Viv had she not agreed to the changes in the appearance of Ethel Mertz.
Sounds like you had a wonderful Grandmother. She died way too young. She died at an age when she was a year younger than Lucille Ball was when she made Yours, Mine. & Ours with Henry Fonda.
I probably would go with Desi’s version. I think that Lucy might have been a bit difficult to work with at times... almost wanting to corner the spotlight. Vivian Vance was the perfect choice, though, as we all would agree!
I think Vivian, as Ethel, her reactions to Lucy's schemes were so excellent, And to Fred , they both played well too, like an old crabby couple. I love it!
….I always heard that Lucy wanted someone who had more film experience..remember Lucy had become known to many through her movies even if they were not A-films..Viv's experience was mostly in the theatre and vaudeville. I thought Lucy wanted someone who was at least better-known to the general movie-going public.....we are certainly lucky that it all worked out!!... .
I love Vivian, I think she was great as Ethel. When there was an argument between the pair, on the show, I feel like Vivian's anger is portrayed perfectly. I feel like she is truly angry where as with Lucy, her anger still had a comedic undertone. Both great actresses! Thank you Rick for these behind the scenes takes on a wonderful show!
I've heard about Desi going to La Jolla to see Vivian in a play so I tend to believe Desi's version. Of course Lucy would be standoffish to anyone since she wasn't even consulted about hiring for such an important role! As always, Be Hopeful 😂
I was wondering if you could post why Eb on green acers missed so many episodes in season 3. They said he was on his honeymoon but never got married. I figured if anyone would know, you would.
Jeff Daniels According to Wikipedia (I know, not the most reliable source), Tom Lester took a break from Green Acres at that time to recover from mononucleosis.
matt ford Very true; I initially assumed that he used the time to take part in an evangelical mission, since he’s made many such appearances over the years.
Hi Rick, I tend to believe Desi's version. It sounds like he really liked her performance in the play. I have a question, did Vivian have any children? I've always wondered. Thanks for an interesting video.
In 1975, Lucille Ball and Vivian Vance had a surprise reunion on The Dinah Shore Show. Lucy was the guest and was surprised by Vivian. At this point, Here's Lucy had been off the air for a year, and from the 4th season of The Lucy Show until the end of Here's Lucy, Viv would guest star once a year. Here's Lucy went off the air in 1974. On that reunion show, Vivian showed a "gag contract" that Lucy wrote for Vivian. Some of that contract was based Lucy's early concerns about the color of Vivian's hair and Vivian's weight. Regarding her weight, while it was supposedly in Viv's contract to be heavier or appear heavier than Lucy, they never actually weighed her.
Very interesting. I remember hearing they didn’t get along, but I never knew the reasons as to why this was. And regarding the story of who’s right or who I believe, I think Desi’s story is more believable. Just seems like something he would do. Thanks for the video Rick. Keep up the great work!
There was only one Ethel and that was Ethel!!! Vivian doesn't exist! Only Ethel exists! She was perfect for the role she played through 1955. There was no Bea Bernaderet in my mind. Thank fate that Vivian got the role. Ethel has always been my favorite character moreso than Lucy herself. Second was Doris Singleton(Carolyn Appleby) and third was Elizabeth Patterson(Mrs. Trumble). Too bad these last two didn't appear in more episodes.
She wanted Bea Benaderet to place Ethel, but she was under contract to Burns and Allen. I believe Desi's version because that is something he would do.
If I'm not mistaken, there was even tension between them during the Here's Lucy show. Vivian Vance claimed that Lucy was difficult to work with, especially when she got older.
An even better story is to tell why Fred and Ethel didn't get along. They truly hated each other and it was no secret. Vivian Vance didn't like the fact that William Frawley was 22 years older than her and he had to play her husband. He overheard her comments and from then on he never missed a chance to insult her on and off the stage. If I have to take sides, I'm going with Frawley. I loved him on "My Three Sons" where fans got to see him in a different type of role, while Vivian was always the frumpy sidekick on all of Lucy's shows and I got tired of her act after awhile.
I never saw a hint of chemistry between Desi Arnaz and Vance, which was surprising as Vance after all was a female. I'm sure this was something Ball not only required, but found refreshing and a relief.
From what I gather Desi did sign Vivienne without Lucy's consent and I think Lucy did not want anyone who she thought Desi would be attracted to. See Vivienne was much young than Lucy had anticipated and she wasn't happy about it and was slightly jealous. She made Vivienne sign a contract to say she wouldn't loose weight or have her hair similar to hers and a bunch of other stuff I don't believe it really had anything to do with the show more about being a treat to her relationship with Desi but i think once Lucy saw Vivienne wasn't flirting with Desi and wasn't any treat to her they became friends.
I read somewhere that lucy didn’t want to cast someone prettier than her or attractive and thats when viv took it upon herself to say she photographs badly or something like that and she agreed in looking more “plumpy” than lucy. So Desi taking initiative on hiring Vivian was great because she did SOOOO WELL and really created a beautiful friendship
Thanks Rick I'm Always looking forward to your Stories on the shows !! I watch Lucy every morning ... I saw everyone of then a Billionzillin times and you amaze me with the bloopers I have a video ion my channel when Lucy almost killed a baby Chick lol Great job as always !!
Lucy was tough to work with, she was a perfectionist who became even tougher once Desi was not in the picture. Vivian was a professional. I read somewhere that in later years, Vivian was one of the few people who did not take any crap from Lucy which said a lot since Lucy treated celebrity guest stars poorly sometimes.
Vivian's stage experience was a great foundation for her transition into television. Lucy was a hard worker and not one to tolerate fools. If Vivian had been mediocre or difficult to work with, Lucy would have fired her. Vivian Vance was perfect as Ethel and, even though she and Bill Frawley hated each other, the casting was perfect.
Hey Rick, At the risk of sounding redundant, another great video. But by now, we expect nothing less from you. You are the only other person I know that has Desi's autobiography. It is very hard to get, and I spent the most $$ I have ever spent on a book to purchase it. A few things: Lucy was upset that Desi hired Vivian without Lucy first meeting her or seeing her perform, since they were to play best friends and appear in the majority of the episodes together. She was extremely skeptical. When they finally did meet, Lucy was still "on the fence" about the casting, and they were not immediate friends but, once she started working with her, Lucy melted. Once they started filming, Lucy was immediately taken by Vivian's talent, and thereafter stated that she said she could not imagine anyone else as Ethel (including her personal friends being considered for the role, such as Bea Benaderet, who wasn't available any way because of her recurring role on "Burns and Allen"). Lucy and Viv eventually became best friends off camera as well as on, and Lucy would often listen to and acquiesce to Vivian's suggestions about scenes (especially during "The Lucy Show"), which is the ultimate compliment Lucy can make about anyone. She actually followed Vivian's advice many times. The story about the contract stating that Vivian had to be 20 pounds overweight is pure baloney. Lucy and Vivian even joked about it on the Dinah Shore show. What they DID do was have Vivian wear dresses that were one size too small, to make her look heavier than she actually was.
Redundancy is never an issue on this channel! All positive and motivating and inspiring comments are always invited no matter how repetitive! Thank you so much for the constant support!
I think there's a ring of truth to both sides. I'm sure Vivian Vance was signed on the spot but it would still be Lucy that ultimately makes the final call if she felt Vivian wasn't right. I know a few people from my days working at NBC that worked with Lucy and said what a perfectionist she was, kind but extremely set on perfection. She worked very hard at everything she did and only wanted the same back. I think that's why the show was so successful, Lucy and Ethel had chemistry and it grew with the show. And I know those two really did love each other and it was like in normal life, sometimes we are carful at first when we work with people for the first time.
They could not have picked anyone better than vivian Vance Ethyl was so perfect..and then the show was a major sucess..still watching..the best ever...
Hello Rick! I remember the rumours that Lucy along with other stars with their own show, had rules on the appearance of cast members. They insisted on any costars or cast had to be less pretty, weigh more etc... They didn’t want to be upstaged in any way. Good for us Lucy and Vivian finally got along! 🥰
To show she was a good sport, Lucy drew up a fake contract between herself and Vivian. Many years later on the Dinah Shore Show, she read it out loud to the audience.
Over the years I've seen various media articles that seem to want to sensationalize the fact that the roles of Lucy and Ethel did not always parallel the reality of the complex relationship that existed between Lucille Ball and Vivian Vance. We have to keep in mind that although Lucy's onstage persona was that of the zany mad-cap housewife she was in real life a business woman in a very tough business during a time when sexism was rampant. For her to be successful and not get eaten alive by all of the dishonest business men in Hollywood she could not rely on her stellar talent, she had to be savvy and tough as nails and sometimes that means not being very nice. Of course it is the nature of performers to want as much of the lime light for themselves as they can get and it is in no way unusual for off-stage drama to erupt as actors vie for more lines, screen time, etc. We have to keep in mind as well the stress of Lucy and Desi's marriage, working together and dealing with Desi's philandering, drinking and temper. Add into the mix the alcoholic William Frawley and we really don't have a lot to go on as far as who to believe. As much as she was a wonderful actress beloved to millions, Vivian Vance was not an emotionally well person, she was in therapy almost her entire adult life and was, if I recall correctly, hospitalized for certain episodes on occasion. Lucy Arnaz has stated that Vivian was a frequent over-night guest at the home of Lucy and her second husband, Gary Moore. The non-verbal communication that is exhibited between Lucy and Viv during interviews and game show appearances leads me to believe over the years they grew very fond of each other, respected each other, but didn't entirely trust each other because each knew at the end of the day it was all about Lucy.
Rick I think there was a little jealousy on Lucy's part because she saw her as a rival. She didn't know if she was going to try to steal the spot light from Lucy. But of course she didn't and once she realized this and saw how good she was she became good friends with her. Vivan said, on meeting Lucy, the first thing she is going to do is make that "bitch" like her. And she did!
I loved the show! I saw the reruns when I was growing up! They both made great friends! They would get them self in to trouble! I still get to see the reruns sometimes! Thanks
@@ricknineg You're Welcome!!! 😁😁😁😁😁 I L0VE ALL 0f Your Videos!!! Especially The Blooper 0nes Where There Were Errors In The Show That No 0ne Noticed, 0r The Microphone Was Showing Up Above, 0r A Crew Member Accidently Got 0n The Set.
I believe Desi's version of the event. Lucy did not want to admit it and in in keeping with the prior agreement said she was consulted prior to hiring Vivian Vance for the part. As for their bristly first meeting, it is not unusual for women to "size each other up" before developing a deep and respectful friendship.
I'm glad that Vance & Ball could grow emotionally over time to a place past their personal issues( maybe on Vances part with help from Vances therapies sessions) to become friends . Life is too short and unpredictable to hold a grudge.
Hmm. Lucy's attitude towards her at first leaves me to think Desi did hire Viv on the spot. I've seen Lucille in interviews and she was one tough cookie! I am glad, however, that they did become good friends. I love your videos, Rick! Thanks for all you do!
I heard Vivian said about lucy, "I am going to learn to love that bitch." I like that attitude. You have to look out for what is best for you and put that above hurt feelings. Also, sometimes you have to work at a relationship; first impressions aren't everything.
I think all of Desi’s cheating & womanizing made Lucy a bitter jealous woman - and she had a hard time accepting other women. Hence why “Ethel” had to be heavier, frumpier, etc.
What I heard was Vivian was told to look and dress older, heavier & frumpy compared to Lucy even tho they were about the same size & age. Ok. Just sub-d ya!
Elizabeth H Well it’s written by Desi Arnez and it had a nutty title, something like””My Book”. I’ll try and look it up tomorrow. Desi was one shrewd business man-not the scatterbrained guy he played on the show.
Desi's autobiography is a great book! Find it! I met Lucie Arnaz Luckinbill a few years ago doing the most wonderful show using her Dad Desi's orchestrations ( a great cd, too). Taking a picture with her I mentioned how much I liked her fathers book. She said to me " It should be required reading in High School!" I agreed but she said it best. Covers Cuba, problems with the government there and nearly failed escape and making ends meet to singing, movies, meeting Lucy, their marriage, I Love Lucy and owning the studio, syndication to his retirement. A must read!
I do not see much of a conflict, Lucy and Desi were just being professional their concern was with the casting, there was no reason for them to befriend Vivian from day one, friendship usually develops over time, not instantaneously.
Lucille and Vivian were real-life best friends for the remainder of their lives, but I do believe they did have a fallout during the Lucy Show the next decade which resulted in Vance leaving the show after the third season. I think they eventually got over it over time though.
At first it easy to believe Ricky’s version simply because of the “Time Era”... He was the Husband, the “Man/King of the house/castle”. 🤷🏻♀️ But then you’re saying things like; Lucky didn’t think Vivian Vance wasn’t plump enough and Vivian’s shade of hair would look like hers on camera... That sounds like Lucy wanted to be the “Queen Bee”! That Vivian Vance was going to be her DUFF a.k.a. “Designated Ugly Fat Friend”! Lucille Ball wouldn’t be the first woman in Hollywood to demand this. Don’t worry I absolutely love Lucy on and off stage! It’s just the way things were.
I believe Desi Arnaz made the decision. He met Vivian Vance in person and must have been impressed enough to make the $350 offer without Lucille Ball approving. Nobody could take the place of Vivian Vance. She was PERFECT 👌
Just subscribed......a few years ago lol. Thanks for the upload Rick. I really do appreciate this. Now when my oldest goes watches full episodes with me point out things to her. She loves it. BE HOPEFUL
Surprising you didn't flush out the story better This is how Vivian got the role You see Vivian Roberta Jones Vance accepted the constraints of second banana on "I Love Lucy" without much objection realizing she was Lucy's third choice to play the role. Lucille wanted Barbra Pepper in role but the network objected, with cause. Miss Pepper suffered from alcoholic bouts that had proved her very undependable in other programing shooting schedules. Bea Benaderet was second choice but was already under tight contract to be second banana to Gracie on the Burns and Allen Show. Ms. Vance knew these old dowdy character types were what would be expected of her but took the role grateful to have the part. There wss absolutely no contract in which particulars such as being 20 lbs heavier was specified. Lucy did outline her expectations of what she expected Vance to bring to the role over a cordial luncheon meeting just between the two of them. Lucy did have final approval over who would play opposite her, Desi could not make the decision unilaterally. Lucy's version is correct that she and Desi were in contact by phone after Desi and Daniel's met with Vance after seeing her in her play. Desi,'s version is also correct that Vance was singed that very night as yet sight unseen by Lucy but with her approval that Vance seemed the best for the part on Desi's say so. Yet that contract was one of "intent" and made clear full ratification of the contact would only occur upon Lucille's final approval. Best, Jurassic Jack aka Jack A.S VanNote President JAV Communicative Enterprises Inc A Multimedia Firm with interests in Film Television and Video Productions General Programming Sports Entertainment and Christian ✝️ Family Fare
Hi Rick. I'm enjoying all of your "I Love Lucy" videos. It has always been my favorite TV show. I've even numbered my favorite Top 40 episodes, & my 10 least favorite. Thanks again for the back stories & uploads.
BTW, I'm already subscribed, Rick! I've enjoyed your channel for 4 years! I believe Desi's version. I can understand why Lucy envisioned someone more dumpy-looking than Vivian, who was actually very pretty, but she was a stage actress. She could pull it off. TV was a newer medium that neither actress had much experience with. Also, since Lucy had little or no input into the selection of her co-star, I can see how she would be apprehensive, especially since she had envisioned someone who looked more the part. But Lucy had to admit that Desi and the others were right about Vivian. She was perfect! The show wouldn't have worked without her. Even her animosity toward Bill Frawley gave the show a real feel. (She was able to "act" as though Ethel loved Fred when the script called for it!)
They may have had their differences, but they became Life long Friends, and Lucy was devastated when Vivian Vance passed away. Lucy,Vivian Earth is sending Love up!♥️October 2019
2 Things: #1- People often cite the alleged event where in the beginning of the series Lucy served Viv with a contract that contained a clause for her to remain at least 20 pounds overweight compared to her. This was NOT true. It's an urban legend that's been perpetuated for decades. In reality, this was a gag contract that Lucy presented Viv with as a joke...nothing more. #2- Viv famously said, "When I die there will be people who send flowers for 'Ethel Mertz'".
My money is on Desi hiring Vivian without consulting Lucy so as a result Lucy and Viv's meeting was tense - most likely she was angry at Desi for making that move and took it out on Viv. Thankfully Viv proved herself to Lucy in short order and then they became real life friends. Lucy outlived Viv by almost 10 years and after Viv's passing, upon reflecting on her memories of Viv, she always got misty eyed. Am now a subscriber. ;)
I have heard other stories. One was that Desi disliked Vivian Vance. That might have been because, as Vance said (in her autobiography) that she disliked William Frawley who played her husband Fred Mirtz. She did not tie this to Desi though. Vance had said words to the effect that Frawley was a crude vaudvillian. That could have been a personal comment too. I got the impression that Arnaz might have turned against her because of her lack of interest in her television "spouse. " She was of course excellent as Ball's buddy and even "Fred's wife Ethel.🤫😔
Title ... so what? Ya really wanted to focus on that "DISLIKED", eh. Not abnormal for folks w/different personalities take time to warm up, over time. Narrator states his assumptions as Facts, or should I say Gossip.
