As a home gamer, I cannot usually afford expensive (and high quality) measuring tools. This simple and inexpensive approach is just the kind of innovation I appreciate. Thanks to you and Ellie for sharing.
Agree, most of my stuff was purchased used from Ebay or garage sales. About the only new stuff I bought was from Enco when they had a sale. Too bad MSC bought them to eliminate the competition.
@@G1951-w1y OK, I made one up today with scrap metal using a 1" indicator with a missing lens. Turns out my table was out by a whopping .030 over 16". Got it down to .001". To quote another RU-vidr "good enough for the girls I go out with". Yeah...too bad about Enco, MSC is a ripoff.
Yeah me too..super low budget,,that's why I appreciate all these guys like Mr Pete, ave, TOT, and a bunch more guys that have way deep pockets then I do but still are doing some pretty cool stuff that makes you think of ways to do stuff on the cheap. My "new to me" emco pillar mill is going to get trammed at minimum cost. And I have a trashed thrown in the price that's getting cnc modified.
Hello Mr Pete. I am surprised you took the time to review the comment section (that's the main reason I am writing). I spent about a week on Illinois, beautiful place!! That was 25 years ago I'm 45 now, and I really enjoyed your stories. Great job!
That's a great idea there! For the lazier fabricators out there I suggest clocking the indicator so it faces to the "outside" of the axis, so you can mount it rigidly and just look from the sides of the milling machine.
Thanks Mr. Pete. I made one of these and it worked Great. Set my mill dead on in the x axis and within .0005 in the y axis. The proof came when the text book perfect swirl was present when the fly cutter made a pass. Dead on x axis adjustment in 10 minuets. Now the Nod was a different time line. Huge adjustment learning curve. But my mill even though old and had had a rough industrial life surprised me it was able to be dialed in to that exacting standard. To get it within .0005 on the nod and 18 " span was amazing to me.
Ellie's tram tool is very useful. I like it more than the commercial twin indicator ones you see for sale. The only change I would make to it would be to add a wave washer under the set collar on the top of the beam to ensure that the bottom collar is always pulled tightly up against the beam for proper regristration. This would eliminate any wear. He has a nice little addition to anyones tool box. I hate tramming, but this makes it easy.
No wave washer needed. Pinch the stop collars and nylon washers firmly together for zero end play before tightening the set screws. Since nylon is self lubricating the indicator will still turn freely with no end play.
If you have a coaxial indicator, running it slowly on the top of the vise works about as precisely as a swing arm, zeroes out the tram very precisely in one quick semi-automatic step including nod, and trams directly to the vise X-Y plane instead of the table. You do have to have that tool and a variable speed spindle for about 60 rpm. Also works on the table directly if you have a 6-inch parallel plate. You only have the worm/clamp wrench in hand during the procedure, instead of having to manipulate a swing arm. It's a musical joy to watch that needle wobble and then steady as it zeroes out. You also gain sense and control over the budging and stability of clamping down the tram and nod axes. Tramming without nodding will eventually get you in trouble; they both need checking regularly. Large tram/nod errors will spoil just about every operation, workpiece, and tool you put into the machine. Speeds, feeds, chip loads, symmetry, depth of cut, removal rates, horsepower required, fixture force, all are defeated by spindle-vs-table perpindicularity errors. Your weapon will never hit targets if you don't sight it in first.
Nodding is easy to check and correct with this device. After the tilt is corrected set the indicator hand set to zero and continue rotating the bar across the 9 inch table and note if the indicator hand moves. If it moves from zero loosen the three bolts on the ram and adjust the nod until indicator reading remains the same all the way across the table. At this point tighten the three bolts and check the swing again to be sure nothing has moved. The head is now in perfect tram.
Mr. Peterson, glad you got the courage to tilt the head in order to show us how this great idea works. I did notice that you couldnt bring yourself to adjust the nod. I guess no one was around to give you the beating you say you prefer to having to tilt/nod the head on the milling machine. I think of you anytime I even think about changing either. Thanks for the content and the confidence your instructional videos gave me several years ago when I saw that I could learn to used a metal lathe which I hadnt touched since its introduction in high school. That was what gave me the push I needed to start buying my own machines and pursue my desire to add that capability in my own shop. And to acquire and operate a vertical mill which I knew nothing about.
Excellent Mr Pete !!! I was just checking some older videos where someone said they would rather take a beating than rotate a Bridgeport head ??? I’m starting work on Ellie’s design - what a tool. Thank you.
Hey Pete, thanks for video. Got to add, make indicator holder to match your big bearing race. Boss got me a big bearing race, works the best. Keep it in top drawer of my bottom box. Keep up the videos.
Thank you for another great video. It seems to me that even if your mill is slightly out of tram when you make this tool it won't matter. It will still measure correctly. This wouldn't be true if the tool rotated at the dowel pin-- but since the dowel pin is pressed in, errors in drilling the holes don't matter. Very nicely done!
I LIKE it. I have always used my home made dual dial indicators to tram nodding and tilting, setting it up 5" radius (10" table width). That has worked, but I always thought I may need a wider sweep for yet more accuracy. AND, finding I am leaving steps when face milling a piece already set up?? Brilliant! (BTW, I am no machinist.... I'm a retired, blue chip making hack..... but I absolutely love this stuff..... playing with my machines making parts for my old hot rods, motorcycles, and guns keeps me, at my age, from hanging out in bars and chasing loose wimmens)
When you mentioned Joliet East, boy did that bring up some fun memories. I had a college roommate who was from Joliet, so I just had to go see where he graduated from. Turns out he went to Joliet Central, class of 67.
If your machine is big enough you can use 9 or 10 inches between centers. (18/20 inch swing) My first device was on nine inch centers but would hit the column on Mr. Pete's Bridgeport. The one he demonstrated was 8 inch centers for a 16 inch swing.
@@ellieprice3396 Hey Ellie.... thanks for your comment. My machine is a Lagun FTV-2S, with a 10 X 50 table. X travel is restricted with hard stops for DRO scale on it to about 33" on it though, to keep from driving the reader head out the end of the scale, resulting in replacement of scale and reader (ask me how I know this).
@@JohnnieBravo1 You’ve go a really big machine. If you care to go bigger and more accurate you could use make a bar with 10 inches between centers for a 20 in swing. To check the nod you simply swing the indicator across the table and adjust the head (nod) to zero zero across the full width. When the indicator reads zero across the table on both sides of the vise you’re in perfect tram.
Good idea! When I build it the DTI will get the dual thrust bearings but I'll be adding threads above and below the bar to allow incorporation of Bellvue spring washers. A uniform pre-load on the bearings offers a bit more piece of mind. Also, a second ground pin in the middle of the beam allows nod measurements to be made. One would need to run the table and vise left or right to do the nod tram. With the eccentric weight load of the vise on the table the locks would need to be set for an accurate nod-tram.
Very cool idea to be able to rotate the face of the dial. (I typically use a dove tail indicator so I can have the face upright.) I don't have the time to read all the comments, however a trick my shop teacher showed was to use a gage block on the table, and indicate off of that.....instead of the actual table. This will minimize the interruption on the indicator around the T-Slots and back of the table. You could use the same gage block if you want......or put the same height/stack up on both sides. My process with that is to spin the indicator around to the area I want to check and then slide the gage block underneath.
I might put a shaft on top of the dial indicator, and put a tip or a knob on top of that so I can pick it up as if it were unmodified. I always used the coat hanger technique. Had a dial, or run out indicator too. So much for 200+. Never did combine the two. Well, there's always tomorrow. Thanks for the vid.
Amazing. You turned a disagreeable process we dreaded into simple joy. Thank you for again sharing your considerable skills and knowledge. I am embarrassed to say I already have all the parts and wondered to do with them. This will be the first tool made on the new PM mill.
A few comments. 1) Needle thrust bearings are actually quite inexpensive. 2) I think Mr Price just swapped the top knob and the point, and used the domed knob as a contact point. 3) When tramming L/R, with every adjustment of the worm the two indicator readings change about the same amount, and in opposite directions, so it's pretty easy to home in. But with the nod the indicator readings change different amounts and in the same direction. It can be a frustrating, iterative operation. That's why we avoid it. But note that the distance from the spindle axis to the nod axis (on a BP or similar) is about 8". If you zero the indicator at the back first (after L/R of course) and directly under the nod pivot, that reading will barely change at all as you adjust the nod. Just adjust the nod for a zero reading at the front and you'll be very close on the first try. That could be why Mr. Price recommends an 8" offset. 4) I kinda question the need for such extreme accuracy as is afforded by such a long arm. .0005" error over 16" is less than .002°. A "spindle square" that spans 5 or 6 inches would be no more difficult to build, and probably easier to use. But that's a different discussion. Thanks for this video, Mr. Pete.
Lyle, this is a very educational & useful video showing multiple ways to make Ellie's simple, but extremely useful tramming device! Thank you for making it long enough to show everything like you did. I think I'll make one as close to what you demonstrated as I can for my Rong-Fu-type mill/drill, since it's really a "kit of parts to be cleaned & refinished into a better machine" as some other channels have stated! I'm almost guaranteed that the column isn't perpendicular to the table as it came from the factory, though I can still do decent work with it "as is." ;)
Thanks Mr. Pete and thanks to Ellie for adding the little extra. I love the idea of rotating the dial. A great addition to the tool box for an old guy like me.
Lyle - Thanks to you and Ellie for a good idea. Only trouble is you will take away the excuse of having to use the mirror when I tram and it is still out.
I really do like this idea this was the biggest reason I hadn’t built one already didn’t like having to chase the face of the dial but this idea looks to work great me had a brain fart this morning on a nod tramming idea with this I believe I’ll make mine to where I can spin it on the table itself
Mr. Pete, I made mine using a 196 Starett back plunger gauge, Drill and reamed the end of the bar for the indicator. Use a set screw to retain the indicator. Works well.
I wish I had thought of being able to turn the Dial indicator. That is so simple that it's brilliant. I am definitely going to incorporate that into my home made tramming tool. Many thanks to you and Ellie Price.
Pinch the stop collars and nylon washers firmly together before tightening the set screws. Since nylon is self lubricating the indicator will still turn freely with no end play
Nice video Mr. Pete, think I'll make one. I also noticed your speed wrench on your Bridgeport vise. Showing us how to make one might make another good saturday morning project.
Hey Lyle, I also see that a 6 in machinist level could set between the mounting pins as a 2-way checking method (@@)! Got make one of these,,,this will also be very useful to check the shaper bed table in lue of depending on the scale. On my Klopp, you have to get down on your knees to read,,,and since I am so old and stiff, that hurts & stinks,, A super thx to you and Ellie for this awesome idea and way to make this useful fixture! Ps - Bride has a surgery date, so be a few months before it will be made & in the tool box (@@),,, Have a great time @ FL event,,,Bear & Sammie.
It can also be used to check the accuracy (tilt) of drill press tables. I checked my 15 inch Rockwell last night with a shorter bar and found the front .021 lower than the rear. Not much I can do about it but at least I now know not to depend on it for accuracy.
Don't forget to tram in the head on your milling machine before you drill and ream or your project will be cockeyed. Mr. Stewart forgot to mention (outright) that this device is multiplying the actual error by the length of the bar, so a 1. mil indication is actually a tiny error. Ron W4BIN
Great idea! A simple project, but invaluable function. First time I trammed by Bridgeport it took me hours. It was very frustrating with a last word indicator but I was doing the tilt & nod as well.
Hi Lyle, Nice setup. Tip: Use a gauge block under the indicator to bridge any divots that may be in the table and to allow the indicator to be above the table while moving from one side to the other. I prefer to use an R8 collet rather than a drill chuck because there may be a fair amount of runout error in the drill chuck. Just my 2 cents worth!
Actually, runout in the chuck is not a factor at all. Imagine grabbing the tool between only 2 jaws as can happen with a small drill bit in a wide open chuck. Even though the axis of the tool has a half inch of runout, the indicator is still moving only relative to the mill spindle. This is the same principle as offset turning in a lathe.
@@kensherwin4544 That's true as long as there is no movement. Some drill chuck jaws have a habit of moving around, why not just use an R8 collet and remove all doubt?
Once the table is tremmed it would be interesting to tram the vise. I have a cheap import vise that I usually have to put a couple of thousands sheets under one side to align it up. Table is great, put work in vise, tap into place, and find vise was off some. OK - maybe this is extreme, but I need all the accuracy I can provide for. Your video gave me the idea of some sort of flat plate with a perpendicular extrusion which sits on the vise base and held by the jaws. Then tram the plate horizontal surface. If that kind of accuracy should be needed.
I always used a "finger style" indicator with the dial facing up, but where I worked we had a tramming ring that sat above the vise so it was easier. BTW, I graduated from Joliet East in 1976, a long time ago.
@@mrpete222 Yes, I remember when New Lenox's town population sign said 2200 and Lincoln Way was just one school not 3 like it is now. I grew up in Ingalls Park.
Just a question rather then going to all that expense of the thrust bearing and such. Why not just set the dial indicator 90 deg from what you started with it and you look at it at the end of the table get your reading swing it 180 deg and look at it at the end of the table at other end. No turning of the indicator.
Stop collars and nylon washers are both easily made in the shop. However, for super cheap you can get by with stop collars only if you snug them up tight against the bar. The convenience of the rotating indicator is worth the small extra cost.
The spring “handle” is ingenious. I’m not sure I trust doing this in a chuck though. Even my Jacobs ball bearing chucks don’t point perfectly straight. Regular chucks that don’t have that precision are worse. Best to eliminate that possibility, and use a known to be good collet, or a collet you reserve for just measuring. I find that to get parallel machining, I need to tram to better than 0.0005” per foot. Otherwise close sliding fits are impossible
@@RichardKinch of course it does. When you turn it one way, the indicator is pointed slightly one way higher, I know you’re thinking that it will be the same as you sweep it around, so it cancels out. But sometimes that will happen, and sometimes it’s not symmetrical. I’ve done it, or I wouldn’t have mentioned it. The problem is that it’s hard to tell just by sweeping. At a Ty rate, it’s a small amount. I find that if tram is off my more than a couple of tenths over 6 inches, at worse, you can’t machine parallel sides. Bad for close fits and sliding dovetails and such.
@@melgross It does not. The indicator always swings a circle in a plane perfectly normal to the spindle axis. *The geometry or precision, symmetry, alignment, etc of the attached tool is absolutely irrelevant, as long as the tool is rigid and rigidly fixed to the spindle.* Your experience was perhaps due to a rigidity or fixation problem.
The dual indicator devices such as EDGE do require a very accurate chuck or collet since they don’t rotate. However, when the bar and indicator rotate 180 degrees to the other side of the vise as this device does the chuck or collet do not need to be accurate. In fact either could be very crooked and not affect accurate tramming at all. Mr. Pete plans to demonstrate this in a follow- up video. Thanks for watching.
Interesting video, glad to see you back making chips again, my favorite videos of all time are ones while you’re making chips. It’ll be interesting to see one made with a test indicator. Did you drill the hole 31/64 or 31/32?
12:15 I'd suggest adding a soft washer (e.g. cork?) between the top boss/collar and the thrust races - so when you tighten the last boss into place, you can squeeze the bosses closer to each other as you tighten. The sponginess of the soft washer will then keep tension on the thrust bearings.
Hi Mike. A cork washer would work but it’s not needed. Pinch the nylon washers tight against the bar for a slight drag then tighten the stop collars. Since nylon is self lubricating the indicator will still turn freely with no vertical movement.
Thanks for a good old machining video, and the knowledge it brings! I hope You didn't tilt Your well trammed mill. A piece thick like a thou or two, under the needle, would do the trick. Ah, You did..... Is that center line important? Not much I feel like saying. What do I miss? Time 09:45. "This is a 31/32 drill"..... Then reaming with half inch..... Do I need an English class? Time 13:10. "mounted in a three jaw chuck". Aren't those chucks known for runout? How does runout affect the readings? Maybe not much but a little at least. Why not use a collet chuck? Measuring the mini mill 6.5" minus the radius of the clock is available. The vise has to go.
Thanks for sharing Ellie's gadget, easy to make and easy to use. I'm puzzled about your demonstration of checking table sag/way wear. If you rotate the device to do the measurement, what's the difference between that measurement method and the initial one of tramming the head?
Actually, the best way to measure table sag is to adjust the indicator on zero near the center of the table and slowly crank the handle while watching the indicator. If there's sag the hand will begin to move up near the end of travel as the other end sags. Swing the indicator arm around 180 degrees and check the other direction for sag. The 48 inch table on my Bridgeport sagged .004 one direction and .005 the other. Table sag can be improved to some degree by adjusting the X and Y gibs.
mrpete is going to tilt the Bridgeport head just for demonstration and tram it back in? Wow what a privilege! I thought he would have taken the 30 lashings instead.
Just to throw this out there. You could just lay some bar stock into the the lots that is just shy of the surface your measuring. It can be a little proud of the surface too as long as the difference isn't greater than the bevel of the tip of the indicator. It makes it a lot easier to tram because you don't have to stop to lift the probe.
The probe doesn't need to be lifted if you if a well radius tip on your indictor. Mr. Pete showed one from his collection with a large polished radius that would slide right over the T slots without lifting.
Aren't you supposed to always use a "Brown and Sharpe" indicator !! :). Used to traverse the table years ago when I used a mill, your jig looks much quicker
When I bought my Bridgeport the main considerations were the variable speed head and the location was nearby, I would not have to have it shipped. It came with a 42" table, but a 32" would have suited me better.
I feel your pain. My Bridgeport has a 48" table. A 42" would be plenty long enough and I could probably get the machine in or out of my shop without having to remove the table. (Yes, I'm 1000% certain the table on my Bridgeport is 48", I just measured it to be extra, no doubt whatsoever certain. I have no one in mind that may question 48" but it seems likely someone will, or would have.)
I made a similar device to measure small angles precisely. It has two indicators one either side of center. A carefully chosen indicator spacing will let the indicators show angle directly in degrees to 1/100th of a degree over a small range. My requirements are for angles in the 1-2 degree range for gear hobbing. It is fast and convenient for my specialized purpose but won't work in a generalized case for wide range of angles. it is a lot faster than a sine bar and just as precise over a small range. With sine bar like calculations you could set angles with your device. I should put the thrust bearings on it that is a great idea. Why don't they make indicators with a scale on both sides?
Hi John, Here’s a setup for angles on the Bridgeport that’s more accurate than dual indicators. Using the tramming device and a perfectly squared head, place a small digital level on the top surface of the aluminum bar, push the button for “zero” then another for “angle”. At this point when you tilt the head the screen will display the precise angle to 1/100 of a degree. You’ll have to make Mr. Pete’s tramming device and purchase or borrow a digital level but it should work as described.
Chuckle, he didn't make that tip: he just swapped it from the other end. The o-ring on it is a dead giveaway; it's just the knob off the top of the indicator stem.
That is such a neat tool, much greater range than the Edge unit I have. Also I noticed your still use the speed handle I built for you for that Bridgeport vice
There is an implicit assumption when tramming that the table surface is parallel to the slideways. This is probably true on a Bridgeport but maybe not on cheaper machines. If this is the case, face milling will not produce the familiar cross-hatch pattern in both directions of travel. It is easy to check by winding the table while using a dial indicator held on the spindle. This defect needs to be corrected (by scraping or surface grinding) before tramming can be done accurately.
No! Any consistent tilt in the table or the ways across their length *does not* affect tramming. In fact, tramming nulls out that angular misalignment at the position you trammed. If the ways and table surface are not parallel with respect to each other, then there's no compensation in the basic machine possible. In that case the only resort is to shim the work piece, or the vise, or the clamps.
You have to make sure there is absolutely no runout in your drill chuck when you do it this way. Maybe it's better to hold it in a collet. Neat feature that you can rotate the indicator!
Power is off, the head is in neutral, and the spindle is rotated by hand only. Drill chuck accuracy does not matter. The device is an extension of the spindle and is rotating on the spindle bearings only.
Good idea. I actually made a shorter unit for my drill press. Sad news...the front of the table is .021 lower than the rear and there's nothing I can do about it. Update: January, 2023, I finally figured out a way to correct the tilt. Took a lot of thought and work but the table is now trammed to .005 total indicator movement.
You can set the tram plenty good enough to drill the holes with the degree marks on the lathe. The holes will work just fine. Then if you want to refine the beam drill the new holes after you get it trammed with the less than perfect tool. But if you will put a chunck of aluminum in after tramming with the less than perfect tool and use flycutter or other wide surface cutting tool. You will see the swirls in both directions that is an indication of perfection.
Why not put in a second dowel in between the original dowel and indicator to allow measurement of the shorter y axis without the need to move the table in and out? Overall I like this design sometimes the simple tools are the best.
On a higher quality dial indicators, that area around the plunger at the top is threaded, which would lend itself to attaching it to a holding stem. With the long length of the bar, how do you tram front to back? I always lay 1-2-3 blocks on the table for a larger, smoother indicating surface. Keep up the good work!
Actually checking the head nod with this device is relatively simple and the vise does not need to be removed. After correcting the left to right tilt set the indicator dial to zero. Now slowly swing the dial indicator in a semi-circle across the full width of the table and notice if the hand moves. If it does not move the head is in perfect alignment and tramming is complete. If the hand moves from zero the nod needs to be corrected. Slightly loosen the three clamp bolts on the right side of the ram and slowly adjust the hex nut on top of the ram until the indicator hand remains stationary across the full width of the table. Check once again by swinging the device in both directions. The indicator should read close to zero during the full swing.
@@ellieprice363 Unfortunately, after many years of running Bridgeports, I found that when you loosen the nod lockscrews, it effects the tilt adjustment and you wind up having to adjust both at the same time, intermittently tightening the bolts, and making adjustments as you go.
@@ellieprice3396 I know that Federal indicators with 1 or 2" travel have caps that are long enough for this use. If one could find one of those caps, I believe that would work.
Good morning, I always enjoy your videos. I am probably wrong, but if the mill is out of tram, and you use it to drill the holes for the pin and the test indicator, will that affect the accuracy of the finished product? Just thinking that these holes should be drilled dead perpendicular to the beam.
No! *The chuck or collet tilt or runout does not matter in the least, nor does perpendicularity of the stems!* These can be way off, and it does not matter at all.
@@RichardKinch Ooohhhh.... embarrassment... once my beam is mounted with it's indicator and swung through 360 degrees it will describe a flat plane relative to the chuck regardless of the two, quite random, hole angles. Then I measure 180 degrees apart (in/out or left/right) and adjust the head or table till the two planes match. Thankyou Richard. (... spot the beginner 😕)
MrPossumeyes Oops, you are correct that the holes do not need to be perfectly perpendicular to the bar for this device to work. They should not be off too much however or the nylon or needle washers will sit crooked on the bar and not give a good reading when the indicator is rotated. Good workmanship is all that’s needed here. I designed this device and very pleased that so many understand it’s advantages and are offering these useful tips.
None of that is needed. Make a pair of 6 -- 8 inch riser blocks. Even one works. Set on either side of the vice. Also it brings the indicating surfaces up closer to the pivot points if the mill 😎👍
