Tom's two cents on vise tramming 

This press has worked like a charm for my projects ru-vid.comUgkxajoEbapTfqWaadnqb04h6U576yxXp-FE . I didn't even secure it to my table top, mainly due to the fact that I was using a 15 lbs drill vise. It's not flimsy at all as to what others have claimed it to be. Make sure the locking nuts and levers are secured and there won't be any issues with light pressure and patience. I was able to drill through aluminum, plastic, and steel (steel took a while) with no problems at all. Yeah it took a little longer than a regular drill press, but I don't have the space OR the money for one.The instruction manual was worthless, but luckily assembling the press was intuitive. However, the manual would be good for ordering replacement parts if needed. There is a nice breakdown of the parts that are included in the kit. Before ordering, make sure it is compatible with your unit, it is clearly stated what models the press is compatible with.This was an excellent purchase for $40!!

The guy who sold me my BP (sans tooling, natch) preached the same rap when I asked about vise mounting, the key option, swivel bases etc. So my limited amateur experiences have turned out to match Tom's professional experience. I skipped the swivel base when I bought my vise for the usual reasons and low and behold, an old, rusty, Bridgeport brand 12" rotary table sorta fell into my lap (ow!) for free, no more than 5 years later. It needed nothing more than a fill of lubricating oil, some elbow grease and grim determination to get the rust off, and adjustment of the worm gear engagement. And it's as rigid as I can measure, even when putting a foot tall piece of stock on it and running a big rougher across the top, the edge of the table does not lift measurably with a tenths indicator. Dunno how BP did that (surely not a ginormous ring bearing?), but they did it before I was born and I'm pushing 60.

Hi Gnosis, The shop you see in most of the video's is my home hobby shop. If you didn't guess already I'm really into this kind of thing. Regards, Tom

you have some great videos! I'm currently getting training in manual machining and CNC machining. This actually helped me a lot with grasping how to easily indicate my vice. This instructor had us doing it with both of the nuts loose. I went in and tried this method and i finished miles ahead of everyone else. Thanks so much!

I have thought this method to more people than I can possibly remember. I learned it in the first week of the first semester at (MATC) Madison College, in Madison, Wisconsin, in their two year Machine Tool Technics program, from an excellent instructor, and an excellent Machinist, and a good man, Mr.. Lonnie Lingard.

Here from the future, Tom, finally got a mill; spent the last 2 months remodeling my shop to accomodate it & do a 25 yr overdue re-org of my shop. Well explained, simple & straight forward How To on tramming a mill. What I like about your vids on the tips & tricks I pick up, in passing. IE: 1. Most T-slots are ⅝. (Was just scraping & cleaning crap out of the T-slots, trying to get nuts to pass. Previous owner was a slob; found a couple of globs of epoxy/glue/dried snot in 2. He used these sorta T-nuts; 1 piece small, thin head, small stud things.) Now I know they most likely should be ⅝ & can go from there w/ the '70's era mill & used hold down/stud kit I scored on eBay, in my 1st step to owning a mill, 10 yrs ago. 2. Need to make some wooden T-slot covers... Thanks, as always. GeoD

Hi there Tom,great video. You mention lifting and your back. I had a full spinal fusion after military accident and lifting in my workshop was a problem for me too. My solution was to make an equipment mover from easy to obtain and reasonably priced items. I cut down and modified an engine hoist and a hydraulic lift table to make a self contained equipment handling aid. I have drilled and tapped all my chucks,vices,faceplates and stuff to allow fitting an eye bolt for easy lifting. I plug holes with blank to maintain balance and keep threads clear.. I can lift,move and change heavy items with very little stress on back and reduced chance of dropping or damaging expensive tooling. Storage rack to machine with no physical lifting all for around $300.

I agree you should indicate your vises once in a while. I used to indicate my vises everytime I start a new job even if I never removed them. With that said, I still use keys under some vises. The reason is a lot of times I get a job that don't require precision machining like drilling bolt holes but I still want them as square as they can be without indicating. My 2 cents.

Thanks Tom, that's really useful info about tramming. Being able to see the tips & tricks of a talented machinist is invaluable. I worked with a journeyman pattern maker for a while, and learned a lot just from seeing him work. RU-vid brings what was once obscure and somewhat privileged knowledge to the masses (or at least people like me with an iPad and an Internet connection).

This may be a vid from 5 years ago but this is the best way I have seen to do this and I just got my first mill, and after making sure the table is true I will do the vise. thanks you for your information.

Still one of my favourite videos. I preach this method of indicating a vise to all who will listen.

As someone who is new to milling and machining, I’d like to thank you, this was very helpful.

Very nice explanation of a fast way to get dialed in. I've shown two people how to do it this way, and they have been impressed how quick it goes.

I got a mill now Tom and know nothing about them. Going to be watching more of your videos. :) Thanks for sharing.

Never saw anybody use keys on a vise. Another thing about the useless swivel base - not only does it take up 3 inches it's also much less rigid on heaver cuts. I love those old Starrett holders - even the one with the cable :) And tramming the head (or a vise) you can't beat those INDICOL TYPE indicator holders. And it won't scratch up your quill. Good video - thanks!

One thing I learned many years ago is to NOT keep your vise in the same spot but to move it along the X axis 2-3 inches either side of center that way you will not be wearing out the lead screw in the same spot all the time. I have covers on top of my table but they are left long to allow me to shift my vise to one side or the other. I have not had to replace the adjusting nuts in 4 years and hey still have only .012 backlash and the machine is used daily 5plus hours a day. Yes the keys on the bottom make lifting the vise off the table a pita.

Hi Tom, Against my better judgement, I just bought a 6" Shars (Kurt copy). As much as I try, i can't find anything undesirable about it (other than the stupid red Shars decal that peels off nicely). For the hell of it, before i hide the swivel under the bench, i left the swivel base attached when i installed it, just to see how much run out there would be leaving it on. after tramming off the fixed face, i swept the other faces. this unit is really square, level and tight. Go figure... Your video depicting how to sweep (tram) in the face with an indicator and your explanation why is out of this world. Excellent Video.

Tom you hit the nail on the head regarding vise swivels. I think every work bench in the shop here has one or more under it gathering dust.

Hi Tom . Always good techniques with excellent explanations. I use a 2X3X12in parallel. Put one end over a hold down bolt that is just snug. I zero the indicator at that end, move the parallel away from the indicator and jog to other end of parallel. With that end loose I tap the vise until The Y axis and indicator are zeroed. Then tighten the bolts and check. If you zero over a snug bolt the vice will pivot under the indicator and remain at zero when adjusting the vice.

This is probably the best video Ive seen. The others try show people how to do it with really expensive equipment that not many people buy.

Tom, Thanks for the video, this is exactly what I needed. Great explanation of all your reasoning behind your methods. I actually happened to pick up one of those knock-off Noga holders from Shars just last week. Works great but the "fine" adjustment is anything but. Otherwise it does the job. I even made up some table covers like yours last night. Too many people on the forums complaining about tramming the vise had me worried. Thanks again, Kent

Thank you Tom! Greatings from the netherlands

My approach to indicating my tiny wise is the same as yours, and this is the best way I've found to indicate quickly. If all the instructors were as good as you are there will be a lot of passionate to mechanics :-) Congrats and thanks for your videos.

Good tip on the zeroing and on the Noga. Thanks. Your 2 cents here is easily worth 3!

That was impressively fast! I like that you called out Starrett on their mag bases. And I like that they responded. I was all set to buy a Noga, and am now researching whether I can buy just the arm for my two Starrett bases. You also talked me out of putting keys on the bottom of my vise. All in all, this video was very much worth my time!

Yes...I basically did the same on my anglock vise about 35 years ago but went a step further, when milling out the bolt hole slot in vise for sliding in your hold down bolt, I milled it the same with as T slot in the mill and accurate to the key slot in vise. This allows me to slide a piece of block, the with of table slots which I have several for other mill jobs..aligning etc. you slide into the milled slots in the vice, [not much of a slot] but still good enough to align the vice within .002 or so. This also speeds up when I add a second vise. I do take the blocks out of key slots after tightening.

Hi Steve, Glad you liked it. Thanks for the comment. Regards, Tom Lipton

we've just bought a new Bridgeport, a Kurt without swivel base. The result with the Kurt factory made keys was astonishing -- dead nuts. The fit and built quality is just perfect. Cant believe that until I ran the indicator back and forth several time.

This is the method I use at work, but if you don't have power feed its a real chore. At home I use keys, which gets the vise within a few thou right off the bat. Good enough for most work. Kurt sells hardened keys for a few bucks.

great tip! i think the keys on the bottom of the vise are for a use in a repetitive factory style milling where it doesn't get moved from its spot on the table - just for added insurance that the vise stays in one spot so the work quality doesn't change from piece to piece

Thanks for the tip Tom, I was waching your video this morning and reset my vice and used your tramming method. Did it in 10 minutes. I also made wooden boards to protect the table from swarve.My tiny machine is a PX20 Vario ;)

Couldn't agree more (about vice clocking, Noga Indicator, "Low Rider" music in the background, the whole shootin match). Great video.

Thanks for the vid ! I'm currently in school to get a start on learning this trade, your method is by far the easiest ! I picked up teaming pretty quickly but with 20 plus students banging around 15 machines constantly you can't really trust another's vise setup, can't wait to try this Monday !

One method I use is lay a 24" blade in the vice and sight down the slot on each side, gets you very close quickly, usually within a couple thou.

Very nice Sir. Your 2 cents, worth millions. You and I seem to have been taught the very same thing. Keep up the good work!

I'm brand new to machining and so far, out of all the things I have learned, indicating the vise is one of the quickest and easiest things to do.

Cool tip with the indicator for vise alignment but the trick with the t slot covers is just genius and so simple at the same time never seen this at any youtuber i milled a big piece of aluminum and was very angry cleaning the t slots from all the chips but dont came to this simple idear with the covers so thanks for it i will make ones in the near future

Awesome video Tom. I am all about the quick tricks to work accurately.

I don't even have any machining tools yet, but this is already helping me.

Great! Thanks, for showing this tip, Tom! This procedure will become standard practice in my shop, from now on. Cheers!

hi Tom, thanks. my Pro Trim gauge set order came in the mail yesterday. been working on getting the things right.

Sometimes Tom, the simplest solution is also the easiest.. thanks for showing a better way...

I used both the keys and just tramming with one bolt in the vise. I used my indicator for many things from finding center on round stock , squaring the head on a milling machine to the table . No longer doing this because I’m retired.

Outstanding! very clear and to the point. Looking forward to watching more of your videos.

You can buy the hardened and ground keys from Kurt with screws. My 5 D810's on my mill at work are set that way but still have a few thou of play that has to be trammed out across the line. Helps a little with heavy loads bearing against the back jaw into the keys. The keys really help if you hang them from a tombstone or have a bunch of vises to line up. Tramming 5 feet of vises only takes about 10 minutes with the keys. Otherwise I'd want about a 1-1/2 to 2" TGP rod to hold all the vises together for tramming.

Once again utterly marvellous advice ...Thank You

A cool way that's similar to your system, I line the back of the bolt slots up with the edge of the chamfer of the table slot, I am within .008 each time. Awesome video!

I have seen guys make keys, flip the vise upside down with a piece in the jaws to index it against the back of the T slot & cut your keys parallel to the T slot & it's always repeatable unless damaged. I have a soft table to put my heavy tooling on. so I don't have to worry about damaging the ones with keys. I usually just tram my vise like you do.

One other thing I use is, I put a ground blank in the vise above the jaws, and inidicate on that, evening out any wear in the jaws if it's worn.

Well, Tom, I'm now going all the way back to 2013 for your help to use on my new Mill...I think my wife is even familiar with you now that she's heard enough of you video's (Whether she wanted to or not) :) Thanks!

Hey Tom, I have one of those Noga mag bases and I am very happy with it. I bought a cheap 1" indicator because I figured that me being a novice there was a pretty high chance that it might have an intimate relationship with a chuck jaw or the floor but so far that hasn't happened yet. My only complaint with the mag base is that the model I bought is a little shorter than I would like, but I guess that is just a reason to buy a second one.

Thank you for sharing this will help me in my shop

Good video, I like your style and manner teaching this. Well done.

I took a look on ebay to see if there were any used ones floating around. It looks like the Hoger and Gassler tools might be hard to come by here in the US. If you know of a source for their tools here in the US please share it. Best, Tom Lipton

I'm Between Martinez and Vallejo. Thanks for the comment. Regards, Tom Lipton

great minds think alike.. I do want to chime in a suggestion to fine tune you a bit even though we both do the same thing but I go from left to right. When I mentor I simply tell them makes no difference but do it the same each time. Anyway a funny story. I was showing my guy who I mentor and he is getting in machines and setting up a shop the tram method you just showed. I start by pushing and pulling back and forth equally then imperceptibly tweaking the right side out a micro degree shooting for maybe .010 ramp. Then I tighten the left bolt exactly like you do but I go left to right. By pulling the other side barely forward you then are KNOCKING AWAY FROM THE INDICATOR--NOT INTO IT.. Now I noticed you did in fact do that but you didnt say it.. its possible you got lucky both times that you were not knocking into the indicator.. Anyway--so I am on the left and I run the indicator across real quick for the first set of tapping but it was jammed--even though I was sure I had fed into it a bit. So I go back and no movement and I go back and forth in the y and you already know the story THE INDICATO WAS NOT JAMMED.. so i rapid back over--tighten the bolt and then the other one down and say "and that is how its done"--in other words he though I felt it out and it was dead nuts without tapping or anything. and I do not mean .0005 out--I mean I thought the indicator was not hitting!

Coincidentally, I have the obsolete Starrett base, I have the Noga base, and I have made wooden table covers that fit around the Kurt with the swivel base removed......... but I have been using the Kurt stepped keys and 5/8" bolts. After watching this vid and using a pair of complementary tapered shims for barrel inletting, I am now rethinking that. With 1/2" bolts like Tom and no keys like Tom, I could indicate in the 0.09" to 0.11" over 6" wide vise taper I want, all done with vise twisting.

Tom - I'd love to see a video on vise deflection and preventing the part from rising up and the parallels being able to slide around underneath. Something I'm experiencing (took some investigation). But I'd be interested in seeing how you do it.

Great vid, Thx Bro. I have to say that Noga bases are some of the best. Articulating, locking and sticky! Excellent tools. You WILL pay for them but you know the old saying...~

that's amazing the indicator is ridged enough to be so accurate

I use the mill at school together with some bone headed people and I just tram the head and vise every single time I go to use it. It's great practise xD

Thank you for adding the close up shot!

One solution to the 11/16ths to 5/8th keyway to tee slot. Remove the movable jaw. Clamp the vise upside down on the table with the fixed jaw is against the front of the mill table after checking the table surface to the tee slots. Pick up the 11/16ths keyway in the bottom of the vice. Move over the center distance of the tee slots and mill a 5/8ths keyway in the bottom of the vice. As nice as Kurt's are the type of vice I prefer is the ones with the fixed jaw in the front. The Quad 1 was one brand. Kurt also makes one of this type. This type of vise is safer for the operator IMO simply because when putting the piece in the vice you are holding the part and bringing it towards you to place it against the solid jaw. Plus they take up less room on the machine for the same clamping range. Plus because they are made with parallel sides they can be mounted on their side or even vertical if need be. The one we have at work has 5/8ths keys with four slots milled into the bottom that reach the slots on the side of the viseput it on and remove it registers to with in .001 consistently. Lets face it in a Bridgeport 99% of the time that's close enough. Plus with the side straight it is a lot easier to just cut some 1/4" masomite on the table saw to use as table covers The down side is they aren't/weren't cheap. But then neither is a good Kurt. Plus for all their vaunted pull down feature of the workpiece Kurt's don't always work that way. www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rockford-industrial.com%2FPacking-and-Shipping-Supplys-%2FRockford-%2FAirport-Area-%2FNew-brand-cnc-4-inches-quad-1-vise-0-001-accuracy-provided_image.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rockford-industrial.com%2FPacking-and-Shipping-Supplys-%2FRockford-%2FAirport-Area-%2FNew-brand-cnc-4-inches-quad-1-vise-0-001-accuracy.HTML&docid=jxICDIkfUMxVzM&tbnid=R1yO13udlfgm7M%3A&vet=1&w=400&h=256&bih=783&biw=1600&q=quad%201%20vise&ved=0ahUKEwjP3a3fuMLRAhUHOhQKHYZQCGoQMwgjKAcwBw&iact=mrc&uact=8 www.kurtworkholding.com/manual-versatilelock-reverse-vise-p-2869.html

I tried this. It worked and was fast and easy.

You are right about Noga. When you use one you don't one to use the old style ones.

Nice, quality work, Tom... Good job, and sir? You just made my work a lot easier.

Great vid. Love those custom table covers too!

Great instructional video & thanks for the close up at the end.

That's the way I do it. If a shop happens to have keyed vises I still indicate them anyway. Who knows what's been done in between. Gotta get one of those holders, that's sweet. I couldn't make out the names of those companies (Noga, Thesel?) for those holders. Maybe you can post both links to those products. Great video Tom!

11/16 keys are to fit a # 4 milling machine. I agree that table keys are a pain. But also if you are using a worn out mill the slots may not be true to the ways. I used a worn out Bridgeport mill and the guy on the other shift kept putting the keys back in the vise and I would take them off. The only time the keys were close was when the vise was in the center of the table. When the vise was mounted near one end or the other of the table, the vise showed .008" out on a 6" vise jaw. So the only way to do good work was to remove the vise keys and dial it in like you showed in the video.

You mention that the indicator doesn’t lie but it can fool you. Can you make a video going into detail on when it fools you and how to anticipate it?

I agree 100% about not pinning things for tool room equipment.

Just wanted to say thanks. I took the keys off of my vise and will not look back. Took much less time to get it indicated. With the keys, it was *almost* right but never quite.

Two reasons to use tenons in the base of the vice. 1 it makes for a more rigid set up. 2 when you make the tenons, make several, they will become very useful for other set ups that need to be parallel. My mill does not have rapid traverse, so clocking up the vice requires lots of hand winding.

Missing your new videos Tom.

Would it be okay if I just watch this video every month instead of tramming my mill head? :)

I have a few Noga bases but where did you get the Snug that's holding the Starrett 196 button back indicator. I have a 196 but I don't use it that often because it doesn't fit in the Noga fine adjust swivel deal. I have the Starrett kit with all the clamps and tips and such but I never feel like assembling all that when I can just grab the Noga and a Test indicator

Does it matter how square the magnetic is placed on the quill?

Why not mount the vice to one end of the table leaving the other end for direct clamping? Not only saving removing the vice and reinstallation work but wearing the screw and slides at different positions !

I have that same Noga indicator stand. I love it.

Great tips Tom. Much appreciated!

Hi Tom, I'm curious: you mentioned having a Fisso magnetic base at work. I just assumed you ARE at work. So the shop you are now in and the work you do is akin to freelance?

Us old guys must be real smart ! this is the way I set my vice all the time and have done for many years, it is fast and accurate and in reality very simple to do, On ya Tom

Thanks Tom good video

Been using this technique ever since I got my vise. I foolishly purchased one with a swivel base, and that thing is sitting below the workbench never being used. I really wish I had a power feed on my milling machine (Grizzly G0704). Unfortunately, when trying to tram my vise, the needle tends to bounce because of the hand cranking. I think next time I'll use a power drill with a socket attachment to move the table back and forth =)

Excellent.

I got a noga, spectacular!!

Great tip ! Thanks for posting.

Most excellent

quick and simple thanks. Bought your books "Doing it Better" and "Sink or Swim" both are fantastic. How about a book on just tools machinist make to do a better job. A lot of lathes or mills do not have all the goodies. I saw your video on adding DRO to your lathe. I bought the same one from DRO PROS it still on the way here. later and thanks

excellent tips Tom - thanks

Yep.... the keys aren't the best idea !!! Kinda smiled when you tapped it the wrong way..... I mess up when I am being watched too .... lol I also find that iseral makes the best files as well

Interesting that you clock your vice un-loaded, I have always used a parallel and clamped up as usual in the vice, and then clock on the same side of the parallel as the fixed vice jaw, not much in it to be sure unless you have a loose jaw.

also I am curious if you know about the trick to tram the tilt--the nod in the Y? actually I am not sure its a trick--I have never heard of it or seen it. In tram videos they never show the nod tweaking to tram the head. use 7.5 inches diameter as a size to tram which is right in the middle of the furthest lands on a bridgeport--use an indicol or whatever and stick with 7.5 for right now to understand the concept. When tramming the nod on the table--the Y the indicator goes away from zero BOTH SWINGS.. so tilt the nod barely down so you are cranking up.. set zero on the back. swing forward--write down the amount or enter it into the calculator. lets say its .015 out. multiply that number times 5/8ths.. now swing back to the back--now crank the table up that amount--when you swing back it will be zero.. then for the final tenths you can tweak it using normal methods..

what is the wooden cover on both sides of the vise about? I am new to milling so not seen this before. Thanks for great video

What kind of indicator is that?

Enjoying your vids and your blog....in your blog you mentioned you are close? to Petaluma.... Where are you located, I am down in Mountain View

Im making the wooden table savers for my mill tomorrow , Just a quickie how did you hold them in the ways ,, just some wood in the way and a screew ? cheers great vid

Nice tip ‘Tom.’ As always, thanks’ for taking the time to make this video! And I support this site. ~M~

Tom, I have a milling machine with a 4 foot table. I always see people mount their vises directly in the middle of the table. Is there any reason why I should not mount my vise about a foot from the end of the table, so as to leave a space at the other end just over 2 feet long to use when clamping things to the table, or to angle plates. If there is some risk of added wear due to the table being unbalanced, I could certainly move the vise back to center, or move it to the opposite end periodically (to even the wear). As you point out, it is no trouble to tram the vise wherever and whenever you need to. I'm really enjoying your shop videos. I started by watching all of the most recent 8 months, and now I have gone back to the beginning, and am "cherry-picking" my way through the rest of them.