I'm a professional game designer, been working as a level designer mostly for the last 4 years. This is an excellent video summarizing a lot of the stuff I've learned over the years as well, including the swatches idea (my last studio called it an art corner or asset level, where there is a smörgåsbord of all assets, clumped by type and theme). Only thing that is missing, which to me as someone that has worked on more narrative games, is fantasy or theme. I would say "this level takes place on roof tops and ends by a castle, next level is castle interior, after that is the dungeons of the castle, then the sewers, then the swamp" or something like that. It makes it easier to pick what gameplay gardens to use (plant?) if you know that the small corridors might not be ideal for the swamp, but should work in the dungeons, which means that concepts required for that garden needs to be taught beforehand.
It's a really weird word. It's borrowed from Swedish, and means sandwich table, which is a kind of buffet. But the word smörgås (sandwich) is made from the words smör (butter) and gås (goose). And I like the idea it's because of some troll or fairy bewitching a goose into bread.
@@PonyusTheWolfdude The "gås" that the original word refers to is actually what people would call the small lumps of butter that floated to the top while churning milk; which was considered the perfect size to butter your bread with. Of course, that meaning came about because people thought the butter looked like little geese floating about on top of the milk, so… But yes, the "smörgåsbord" was quite an early custom in Sweden and when other cultures replicated it they copied the name as well. Though in very surprising ways sometimes, in Japanese they copied it as バイキング, which is pronounced as Viking. So if you're in Japan and find a Viking restaurant they are actually serving buffet or smörgåsbord. Oh, and it wasn't that buffets didn't exist in other cultures, but apparently during the 1939 New York World's Fair Sweden had a pavilion which served smörgåsbord on a large rotating table which drew a lot of attention. It was seen as something more sophisticated and something you could serve in a fancy hotel or restaurant, which is why it was then spread as it's own thing rather than "just a buffet". So I suppose it was more the perception of it being okay to serve in fancy locales that caused the spread of the word than the actual idea of a buffet itself. And that concludes your daily diversion of a topic on youtube (don't ask me why, it just sorta happened).
To the topic of that one mystery door and the topic of mystery in general. I think it is important to remember what the player is expecting from the game. Since the game is mainly this fast paced, speed running game, a level like this feels kind of out of place. It's like adding a puzzle part in the middle of a hack and slay game. This doesn't mean that there shouldn't be any mystery, but a player does generally not play this game for said mystery. I think super mario games are a good example for this. You can play them as just the platformer, but every level has something special and some secrets that aren't really mandatory. I think that would also be a good way for this game having spaces where you can see that there is more to it, but never really force you to stop and think about it. Of course a lot of the levels are kind of puzzly where you have to figure out, how to do things or find a sequence of things that works for you, but there is a clear difference. I hope this made sense😅
The Ratman dens in Portal are a good example of that - they can be found because the player is not expecting a fast-paced game, but if they take their time and explore what the game does give them, they can find the Easter eggs.
this is a great point! I wasn't that clear about it in the video, but getting past that part isn't really a "puzzle" and most folks breeze right through it. Though this is an example of introducing something through "discovery" rather than explicitly telling you. Nonetheless, I'm still debating if I'm going to keep it or not for the reasons you mention. I'd be curious to hear what you think once you play it!
@@Blargis3d So just ran through the game, and had so much fun that even my slow ass tried to get atleast a medal in every one of the levels. The door honestly looks like typical gamer disease. Because the only reason to not figure this one out is assuming water means death. Like you said it's not really a "puzzle" and i truly believe that in this case there is nothing wrong with your game, but with the gamer. I also want to use this to thank you and tell you that you are doing a great job as a content creator. I originally stumbled onto your channel when trying to learn godot and really learned a lot from your vids. You are just really fun to watch. Keep up the good work!
@@Blargis3d one potential minor help might be to make one path require the same mechanics in an earlier nonlinear level. so if a player happens to go that way, they might learn it there instead. it would create a diverse player experience and maybe ease a bit of struggle. conversely, however, a super tutorialized approach to learning on that path would probably be the wrong choice, as you run the risk of players thinking "oh, so because i didn't go in one specific _optional_ place i didn't learn a _necessary_ mechanic?" which is definitely the type of thing you seem to be conscientious of preventing
@@Blargis3d I think the best way to tackle the water-door issue is to establish that water isn't dangerous before reaching that part. Many games make entering a water a kill-state, and there's no reason to intuit that a hack'n slash action game where you fly through the air wont do the same. Even if it has to be forceful like a chokepoint you explained. An example could be dropping the player into water in a situation they cant avoid it and showing it is safe, perhaps making a bridge fall out and landing in a moat. looking forward to your future content
as someone who has little to no experience in level design and is soon going to be tasked with making levels for a game this actually helped a lot hoping things go well with your game! 👍
also a side note, the teaching vs letting section is literally the exact stuff going on with another indie game i'm really invested in, it's a surreal game that has a lot of exploration and mystery but some people just can't figure it out and there are even big youtubers who will stumble around in the first area of the game without knowing where to go and then talk shit about the game, hurting it's reputation its so bad the creator quite literally put a big red arrow and glowing sign pointing to the way to go its only the start of the game so i think its fine but it sucks to see people deal with this conflict and i know i'm going to deal with it myself soon enough
17:53 "My process is first to start with something terrible, because otherwise I'd just get paralyzed with fear and indecision". Beautifully said. Thank you for sharing your experiences. I did not expect a level design video to go to such extends about behaviors of human minds (though it does make a lot of sense in retrospect).
@@bad1080 a "bloodthief log" is one of these videos, and "just dropped" means it released he's saying "come quick a new bloodthief video just released" so no, it's not an innuendo
at around 4:50 theres a stained glass window you crash down through. maybe its a silly and impractical idea, but i wonder if you could use something like that to allow multiple paths through the level, like at certain points you could blast through a wall or floor and go another route instead of straight ahead. Castlevania Rondo of blood did this and it resulted in making a very linear game feel more interesting
@@vilian9185 or yk just make it a short section with some kind of reward or special fight, and then add a skip that brings you to the later part of the level. Basically, make a secret optional hard section, that provides some kind of reward, and returns you to a same-ish spot in the level to where you would be if you hadn’t taken the hard path.
for the gate specifically i think there should be more hints surrounding to make it clearer to the player that is the solution, say some jutted out parts of the boundary hills to entice players to jump on them. it's like a puzzle game tutorial, you don't want to give the solution away but you still need to make the path to that solution clear to the player.
For teaching the player vs. Discovery, the rule of thumb I've heard / learned is to teach mechanics, but let the player find interactions. So, make sure that the player understands all of the mechanics to the game, but emergent behaviors and combinations should be allowed to be discovered. That being said, there is also the Super Mario approach to teaching mechanics. That method is super refined and still satisfying.
Most obstacles have specific solutions associated. Like a gap, that has to be cleared using air dash, or a hole in the wall that can only be slid through. You can string them to teach the player to teach a new mechanic: Make an obstacle the player has to overcome by air dashing followed by a small platform to land on and a hole to slide through at the end. You could repeat the same with a wide gap directly behind the hole in the wall, to show how much momentum was preserved. By the way: Your demo is already a really nice game! And your videos are also great!
I love this game already just from the playtest and I'm so glad you found a way for my non-linear suggestion can work in a way that still allows for people to learn the mechanics. That part of the video was genuinely such an interesting point I didn't even think of.
A proposed solution of mine to the "letting players discover vs explicitly teaching": Why not a try a mix of both? You can design levels that give opportunities to the players to use mechanics they haven't been taught yet, but not block them from progressing if they haven't figured them out yet or can't think of it on the fly. Think of things like quick shortcuts, rooms with goodies, maybe entire alternative paths. Things that a player may spark a player's curiosity. Then only make a choke point for when this mechanic becomes mandatory to progress further in the game. On paper this should keep the players being able to discover things on their own while not having them get stuck. Additionally adding extra replayability, when replaying levels the players would naturally see new ways to approach a level, or places they now know how to get to. A simple example section I can think of. You have a hallway, some enemies in it, and there is a gate at the end of the hallway that's slowly closing. If the player knows about momentum preservation they can easily slide under the closing gate and skip a short sewer section they'd have to go through to get to the next room if they didn't reach the gate fast enough. Obviously this isn't a suggestion for an actual level piece, just an example to get the point across.
One idea that could be good would be to incorporate some of the more challenging (but optional) ideas as little secrets to be found in levels. Like make a path that branches off but looks completely impossible to do. You could even make some areas that would essentially be above the normal level route. Getting up to them could give you a chance to try things out, but falling wouldn’t even kill you, it’d just take you back to the normal way you’d go. This would encourage experimentation and replay ability. A player could play the level once, think, “I wonder what was over there?” and then they could return to it later. This could even work well if it requires a technique that isn’t even necessary until later levels.
I started my game dev journey a couple months ago and I'm slowly learning the fundamentals (it's kind of impossible to start making an actual game until I've gotten the basics of godot down). Videos from creators like you are what keep me motivated, I can't freaking wait to start this stage you're in, where no video can really TEACH you how to do it, you're just experimenting until you understand it intuitively from lessons learnt. Like I can watch this 1000 times but I doubt it'll help me much until I go through the process myself. Level design scares me but I'm looking forward to learning it.
This is probably the single best dev log video I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot. It's entertaining, endearing, and educational all at once. It's hard to admit when you've made a mistake but way harder to admit it, learn from it, and then teach others about the experience. Keep it up.
Level design started out as one of the most difficult things for me to approach in game dev. I enjoy it a lot now. Thanks for sharing your experience man. Great video.
Not only is the actual content of the video really interesting, the way the video is produced to present it all is fantastic as well. Thanks mate, really enjoy these vids!
I feel like Celeste is a good example of a game that allows the player to discover hidden depth in the game. That game has a wave-dash mechanic that the player isn't taught at all (until the post-game dlc level) but that the player can discover on their own anytime and wave-dashing unlocks a lot of hidden/unaccessible paths to the player. What I'm trying to say is, the deeper/hidden mechanics shouldn't be the only way to beat a level but should instead be a way for the player to beat the level in a different way.
I love your videos (and your game). One of the main reasons is the way you share your process of learning a game dev / game design skill and then share the application of that learning via the playtest for Bloodthief. Genuinely, this has made you my single favorite gamedev youtuber, and makes me really excited for the game you're eventually going to release. Keep up the absolutely fantastic work, thanks for making content (and games).
I use trenchbroom to make quake maps and 15:30 is so real I have gotten so much mileage out of that arch prefab thing, especially for my beloved gothic architecture Edit* OH I totally have to try that swatch technique the next time I get back into mapping
This would take a LOT of extra work, but I like the idea of every level having a "Normal" mode where everything is a bit more linear and designed to properly teach the player. Then completing the level unlocks "Master" mode which removes the chokepoints and lets the player test their new skills.
The game looks more and more stellar like always, but these dev logs are also extraordinarily well told! Love the effort you put into making these so high quality and fun to watch. It helps communicate the way the game feels so well.
I've always wondered why my test zone felt more fun to play around in than my actual levels, but what you said about levels not being too linear is a really good point and is probably the culprit
First off, love the videos, super interesting and insightful! Secondly, on the topic of mystery and potential player frustration, I think from a player's perspective the best way to make those elements land is how invested the player is when they run up against a roadblock like that. If you've already been playing it for a while, gotten into the groove, you are enjoying the gameplay loop and then you hit something like that, I find that I am far more likely to try and push past it, whereas if a game hits me with a roadblock within the first couple levels I am far more likely to just give up because it hasn't given me a reason to care enough to spend the time to figure out whatever mystery or puzzle it has presented me with.
the "gameplay gardens" concept feels like the level design version of a sketchpage, just playing around with rough concepts. I'd never considered it for level design but it makes so much sense!
This was a GREAT video. I'm excited for the game. The thing about yellow paint isn't about telling the player where to go, but that it's immersion breaking and doesn't fit in the world. Environmental pathing is important in almost every game. I'm sure there's some youtube vid that does a great job of explaining it, but I tend to condense it down to Eyesight/Eyeline. Lights > Paints. Paint is obvious, but lights tend to draw your eyes. We are trained to associate lights with directions in the real world which is why it works so well in game design. There are things that can communicate to the player without being paint. Architecture, Lights, Textures, environmental story telling like dead bodies, blood splatters etc.. Whenever I get lost in a game the first thing I look for are environmental clues, Specifically lights.
The problem with adding those in, say, RE4make? A lot of the game is already in broad daylight. Lighting up interactables wouldn't stand out. Unless the light was flickering or something.
this game reminds me so much of ultrakill. when you get in the zone and the enemies stand no chance, man.. also the graphics and the general progression of it's development
I love this trial and error approach to sharing insight. I’ve watched a lot of game design videos that come from a ‘in the know’ perspective, and I often come away feeling demotivated somehow. This video makes me want to go make levels with what I’ve just learned and have fun doing that. So big thumbs up, thanks!
Your are a crazy good story teller I must say. One of my favorite series on RU-vid. Game Dev encompasses so much stuff its kind of crazy. Interior Design, architecture, game design, texturing, sound, coding. So much to learn, so much to pull from.
I LOVE YOUR GAME AND THE UPDATE WAS AMAZING!!!!(It would be extremely cool to some day get a level where at the start you just choose one of two paths and play completely different routes) edit: first route could be castle styled and the ither a forest
i have an enemy suggestion i would love to see added, it is an enemy placed out of reach even for an air dash, and you get to him by air dashing the multiple projectiles it shoots .
Portal and Portal 2 might be some of the best examples out there when it comes to level design and teaching mechanics in a linear way before letting the player use those mechanics in open puzzle boxes, which I'm not sure if you realize, but you made a puzzle game. That's why they're some of the most widely loved speedrun games out there.
I think you are doing it the right way. You build interesting levels for someone who has all the knowledge and then add some "teaching levels" in between. This also adds to the amount of content in a non-scummy way.
Super good video and the game is really shaping up. I really liked the part about thinking about choke points and handling non-linearity. I've definitley been a victim in games where ive shimmyed my way through an earlier part only to be genuinely blocked later cause i lack the context. Hope it keeps on improving and ill be following closely :)
I'm currently in a game development class, and I've got to say, a lot of these things are actually really helpful! The gameplay gardens and swatches are definitely a good idea, though I'm not sure how the latter will translate into 2D (maybe just tilesets? or something similar since there will be fancy lighting, particles, effects, etc.). I also really enjoy watching game design videos, and was glad you brought up GMTK's mystery design video, as I enjoyed that one very much as well. Here's to hoping our games are successful (I'm sure yours will be, it looks awesome)!
love your videos found your channel recently and binged threw the content on Bloodthief, and it has inspired me to learn to make games. Thanks for that.
blargis you are a sagely saint for sharing your trenchbroom godot workflow... it legit carried a 30 day student project i had to do a while back in godot because it was my first time ever using godot and i just happened to get your first or second video in my recommended two days into the project. all of the little workflow tips and techniques you share are a gamedev's holy grail... my grandkids WILL be buying the HD triple deluxe edition of bloodthief when it comes out in 2065 in your honor
I think I'm not the only one telling you this (and you probably already talked about it I dunno I just catched the train) but ultrakill is a really great exemple of "only tell the bare minimum to the player" and I liked a lot, personnaly ^^
I've been working on level design for my newest project and I gotta say it's the hardest thing. I had more fun coding the Ai for god's sake. It shouldn't be this way. But the things you've mentioned could really help me and I'm pumped to work more, so thank you for sharing your journey still. I'm here for the ride and I want to see it reach the finish line!
The city and chapel look great! I love stylized level design
21 час назад
45K subs with like 10 videos. True quality content in video and game design. Really cool, entertaining and insightful stuff there man. Not the biggest fan of that kind of game (reminds me of ultrakill) but as a beginner Gdev every video is a joy to watch.
downloaded the game. can't believe that you are even doing your own textures. awesome. I love 100% self made. suffering from scratch, exactly my style of living.
Keeping your momentum while sliding was a difficult skill to learn while play testing myself due to only really being forced to use it once in the test levels. Also, while playing the game I had to forcefully die to re-read the tip that told me how do keep my momentum. Seeing those new hint books are exciting to see. I had a good time and, look forward to play testing again!
Also a pro game designer here - for your “mystery” level, I recommend giving the player a few more clues. Add a bit of visual flair to the part of the level that you want them to figure out. Or include a lead-up to the castle courtyard that features the mechanic you want your puzzle area to focus on, but used in a different way. Two or three more clues will help a lot!
13:31 This part reminded me about a certain zone as a new player in Rain World, The Exterior. I remember as a new player being SO frustrated when going through the Exterior, especially The Leg And Underhang. Because it is a zone that requires a lot more of knowledge about the game’s main mechanics while introducing new ones, and especially ramping up the difficulty. (New enemies, Complicated Parkour etc) And I remember as a new player straight up rage quitting that zone, because it WAS frustrating, and VERY unfair. BUT sometimes imo, i feel like you gotta have that one obstacle in a game you enjoy, that one thing you remember struggling with for it to be an experience you will remember, and this part in Rain World in particular, while at the time made me Throw my laptop. I would give everything now to come back to it as someone who knows nothing about it again. Now some players might’ve gotten and gave up there, but taking RW as an example again, for the players that see it through, and stick for the hard ride, a lot of time they will see this game as something special, so i feel like you should also see players leaving at that part a certain way to filter out the ones that aren’t your target audience. Not a game designer, but I hope my comment can help with that. :)
A great way to get around the problem of "am I holding your hand too much?" is a difficulty slider. You don't need to teach everyone everything, but some people do need to be taught, and having the option to enable that teacher when you need it is a severely underrated tool that recieves more hate than it really should
Dude, this channel rules. I feel like you might be a game dev sevant doing some undercover boss shit because I learned so much from this video and now I want to make a videogame because this looks so creatively fulfilling. Game looks awesome, I hope you port it to console one day.
Huge fan of your videos I studied Game Design and Production at university and spent quite some time during my 2nd year making a mini thesis on progressive difficulty. One of my most interesting findings was that the difficulty of your game in the form of the traversal mechanics, hazards (anything that causes damage to the player like enemies or level) and the requirement of having to do something specific to surpass a challenge is completely based on perception and previous experience. An easy enemy being defeated by an easy move can be quite straightforward but could change if the level shape makes it hard to not die (like the way you have pillars between lava), but if you do it again it can get repetitive and boring. The benefit that you get is that once a hazard or complex mechanic is introduced, players will quickly catch on and not affect the perceived difficulty anymore, you just have to onboard it correctly, remind them every now and then and twist it later for some unexpected combination or application. This can help you create that feeling of balanced frustration or necessary calm in levels to make a contrasting experience.
This game is going to be awesome. I had commented on the repetitive textures and ambiances on another vid, but now I can see it all coming together. This is definitely not my type of game, personally, yet it looks like it will be a banger! Push through, Blargis, and hopefully enjoy the laurels and returns at the end 😉
I love the game man I LOVE the community interaction that you have and you actually care and that's obvious and I love that so much. I have like spent 16 hours in the game at least just trying to do speed runs. This is the only game I have gotten into speed runs and it's because they are friendly to new players and it's addicting! Edit: I mainly speed ran level 2 and 5 so yah they were both probably my favorites despite being so different! I also started off with the goal of getting hex on all levels then worked on the time and it was so much fun, I loved it! And last thing. There were hundreds of times where I got frustrated and that happened a lot but it made me personally more determined and when I eventually did succeed it felt amazing, I was so proud of myself and happy and I think that is super important. To keep the game challenging and sometimes frustrating, but frustrating for the right reasons. The reason of "I know I can do this and I am so close!!!!!". That frustration is what makes a game fun and keeps me playing personally.
I don't know if others would relate, but one of the things I loved about quake 2 when I first played it was not knowing what to do or where to go sometimes. It would then feel like a real accomplishment to find your way to the next area. As you said this feeling has very much disappeared with modern games. So, I appreciate the decision to not oversimplify everything. Great devlog as usual!
A cople of days i go i had a dream that gave me an idea to make a video game. I was very exited and started brainstorming and writing things down. And then yesterday youtube recomended your air dash video under the watch again section. It was then i realised i had just remeberd your game while sleeping
I love this game. I think it is a bit frustrating and punishing because it requires skill but this forces us to replay the level many times to progress and makes it so satisfying when we succeed. I think the music plays a huge role in the adrenaline rush that this game gives
Great playtest btw had some points to make but i replayed the game to speedrun some levels and getting some medals but most my points still stand, extremely fun gameplay , keep up the great work
I'm not a professional game designer, but it might be a good idea to reward players for discovering mechanics, some examples could be shortcuts or collectables instead of requiring the "secret" mechanics to beat a level normally. This would contribute to the nonlinearity for more experienced players as there would be multiple paths an advanced player could experiment with. Hope this helps!
Doom Eternal did this pretty well. Gives you your skills one at a time, makes you master it before you get a new toy, then you get a new toy to add another skill, etc.
I feel you. I'm also a fan of letting the players discover the mechanics on their own by playing (usually setting a section that's impossible to get through without understanding said mechanic), but watching a person struggle for minutes on end with something that you thought would be easy to get is hard. It's impressive to see the lengths that people are willing to go to, to avoid interacting with something they don't understand. Usually, what works for me is to try to understand what's the most common way in which people misinterpret mechanics and make that approach either less appealing or just impossible. For example, in my game there's lines that if you shoot, you get teleported to them. But people for some reason always got really close to them before shooting, so many people formed the wrong idea that you had to be close for them to work. So my fix was to put a wall between the player and those lines, so it's impossible to get close to them before shooting. They're still trying things out on their own, I'm just making sure they're trying the right things. Btw your game looks sick!
What if for the door example at 12:53 you checked If the player hadn't solved it after a certain amount of time (right before the frustrated players start dropping but after the other players have hopefully discovered it) you put a little popup saying how to progress(obviously this solution isn't perfect and some players WILL get that AHA moment way after you would have shown them the answer and some players will go even before you've decided to tell it to them but I think this would be a good middle ground) PS: I love what to niches because it will definitely make your games community stronger and better to be an incredible game to a thousand people than an okay one to a million in my opinion (also I love ur vids)
On the topic of mystery: ask if the answer to the mystery is a reward for mastery of skills or a necessity for progression. If it is a mystery where not having the solution prevents you from moving forward that is very frustrating. If it is a mystery where not having the solution means choosing between an optional reward (ie lore, currency etc.) or just moving on then the player has agency. You touch on understanding the importance of player agency in non-linear level play, but that applies to the mystery concept as well: it should be a choice the player makes.
OG Doom Chapel will forever live in our hearts. And my hard drive. I'm not letting that sick level go to waste! fr It was _really_ addicting once I got that first run done. (23 minuets, 103 restarts)
i think you should change the spiked walls a pikes celling at 11:00 to make sliding more intuitive, like thinking you'll be able to barely make it out with your reduced hitbox but then finding out it gives you a speed boost
I think a way you can have a challenging experience without losing people is just by setting expectations. Set the expectation that a part is challenging, and players can try to rise to the occasion and not be as frustrated when they fail.
14:45 100% correct. Make the game a unique experience, then let the audience filter itself until you have the niche. This is the best approach and is the sole reason that any form of diversity exists in gameplay in the first place.
i think it would be nice to see a bit of continuity in between the levels, like the next level begins where the last one ended or at least feels like it does, and it would be cool to see like unspoken lore that you can discover yourself, maybe leaning a bit more into the thief part, why are you there, why are you escaping, what is the goal
There was a moment for me at 4:45 where I saw that open area, and for the first time since I've first played the game last year, I thought "that Bloodthief combat looks fun". I think a huge part of what has held Bloodthief back was it's linear nature. Especially in earlier versions of the game, Bloodthief was often divided into movement sections and combat sections. Even though the movement sections often had enemies whose whole purpose was to serve as a dash-attack point, it hardly ever felt like the movement was combat, and even though you could move during the combat sections, it hardly felt incentivized. The disconnect between movement and combat is something I love to see attention given to, as it's really what made the game never click for me. Often times it felt like combat was just swinging a sword and walking forwards (and in some sections you could really get away with doing that), but I think more open-ended combat encounters would be awesome. Keep up the good work!
