The Difference Between Fun and Frustrating Games 

You can play the playtest right now by going to the steam page here: store.steampowered.com/app/2533600/Bloodthief/ If you like the game don't forget to wishlist on Steam and sub to the channel for updates 🙂

When you deflect an arrow, the white flash seems too intense to me. And the time slow-down may be too.

when you got to the part with the archers on the platform my first reaction was "surely theres a parry." and then i learned you added one. very cool. game looks fun

Currently my favorite devlog series because you can tell how much you care about making a fun and challenging game instead of just throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what sorta sticks. Its clear that you deeply care about this game and i cant wait to see the finished project!

I think if you want to add back some of the skill ceiling with sliding that was removed when you removed the timing aspect, you could add a feature that gives you a larger boost of speed when you time your slide perfectly. The game would still be accessible and possible for new players, but provide incentive for skilled players to intentionally make the game harder for themselves in order to potentially shave off some time (and maybe if you wanted too, you could incorporate this into level design by adding some skips or shortcuts that are only possible with perfect slides)

I feel like this video made me a better game designer

I think the way you improved the wall jump is very nice, having to hold into the wall when you want to go the other direction is very annoying, though i would like to add that some people may prefer not being magnetized to a wall when they go near it, so it could perhaps be a toggle you can disable in the options. And on the topic of the slide jump slide, you could heighten the skill ceiling by making sliding in the air make you lose some speed over time, so pressing it as close to the ground as possible lets you preserve more speed. Additionally, i personally prefer high air control over less air control as well, and especially if the air control influences the direction of the momentum instead of just temporarily adding speed in a direction. Good job with that. There is an easy solution to the checkpoint problem. It could be how to add additional difficulties, be that easier or harder. Easier difficulties have more checkpoints, so a player needs to execute less of the level at once, with the highest difficulty not having any for example.

All this tells me is that most modern gamers are horrifically disconnected from movement shooters. Like, if you didn't tell me that nearly everyone struggled this much I would've been making game journalist jokes.

this looks rad, right on homie! My thought about checkpoints. I understand what you're getting at with overcoming a challenge and feeling that satisfaction, but I think you're applying that end-game vice to a section where players will barely have had the time to get their land legs yet. A thing that makes me put a game down before I normally would (like Forgive Me Father, for example) is when I keep dying to a section that I want to practice and figure out, but I have to replay 15 minutes of level before I can even get to that section again, only to die right away because I'm still learning about it. That doesn't make me feel like I earned it more - it feels like I'm being artificially prevented from gathering data and improving my strategy. If there's 3 level sections of progress on the line, I'm less likely to experiment and try difficult mechanics because that behavior is more likely to be punished. So I would learn that you're teaching me to play safe, but eventually I'd just feel frustrated. Like, I can already do parts A and B, and I never fail those sections. I'm ONLY struggling on part C, but in order to learn more about C, I need to do A and B ooovvveeerr and oovveerrr again. No thanks, that's inconsiderate of my time and will have me begging for the autonomy of a quick save so I could just override your checkpoints and start where I want to.

judging from the footage, the freezing during the parry feels like it interrupts the flow to the point that I thought it was lag

What you're trying to make is clearly a speed game, meaning that people will want to go fast and not get bogged down for too long on one level/section. So I think making checkpoints reasonably generous will keep player retention high. After all, the replayability of such a game is in improving your time and achieving mastery. I suggest implementing a ranking system, and making deaths reduce said ranking. Death is punishing for those who are trying to get a high ranking, but not punishing for those who are playing for the first time and just want to get to the end. After all, celeste was extremely generous with its checkpoints, and nobody ever complained about it.

with regards to the slide jump, I think adding what amounts to "input buffering" in the form of allowing the player to hold slide and have it activate when you land is a really solid idea. When you first mentioned it I was thinking to myself, wouldn't a more traditional input buffer be better but the justification that it's a fundamental mechanic and *needs* to be easy to learn really convinced me that an "infinite" input buffer is better for it, even if it's probably not the case for some hypothetical other game. I think you could add another layer of mastery by having a small window right before you land where hitting the slide input will you get some little boon, like the slide deals damage as you pass through enemies or you get a small speed boost that you can chain into an even faster/higher jump. Some additional mechanic that gives you further incentive to master the timing. All that said, you're the game dev, you have the analytics to back up your development decisions, and I haven't even playtested your game. I don't want to "back seat gamedev". Instant subscribe. This one is going in the "Game Dev" playlist for reference when I finally get off my arse.

Feels like playtesting is everything! It was cool to see your process how you fixed it. Cheers!

Parry arrow animation is something I would suggest. As for checkpoints, it could just be tied to a difficulty option, like how I Want to Be the Guy just adds more checkpoints on the easier difficulty. Or you could make the checkpoint system like in Shovel Knight where you can destroy them for a reward, but can't use it anymore.

One small animation/player feedback thing I think you might consider is making the parry animation more like a sword block. I paused and looked at the parry and it seems like the player counterintuitively parries with their left arm. I just think it would add a cool badass feeling to watch the sword block the arrows and send them back to where they came from. The parry effects and sounds are pretty spot-on though, good job there

I knew you had played Ultrakill when you were explaining the slide. The mechanic seems to be aiming to replicate how bunny jumping works there by sliding right as you hit the ground and jumping the next frame. Anyway, this video was very insightful, I liked it.

For the checkpoints - look at shovel knight. Less skilled players can use checkpoints like normal but more skilled players can risk destroying it for greater reward

your devlog series is really fun to watch, especially because you seem so genuine and excited yourself and i am really thrilled to see were youre going with this game

6:43 That was the most genius bullet-pointed list I've ever seen. Just one second prior, walljumping felt like TF2 Soldier Rocket Jumping maps, a kind of "hack". The moment I saw the screenshot of the _tilted camera_, it instantly clicked that this was a real mechanic and not just a hack.

Its nice to see someone embracing the "prototype and playtesting" as fully and openly as you do. Keep it up :D

Hey Blargis. I've never made a game before and don't have time to learn now.... so I'm sort of living vicariously through your videos! I always thought making it fun to traverse the game world was essential to making a fun game, and it seems like you're really nailing that! Not sure if you'll read this or even take youtube comments from "idea guys" into consideration, but It doesn't cost much more than a few calories and time to type, so I'll share anyway: I think another good hook for a game is unique boss mechanics. Games like Doom or quake where bosses are bullet sponges that just do more than average damage always left me wanting for more. Games like Halo that force you to escape as the world falls apart, or portal where you have to accomplish a number of steps to win are far more challenging, fair, and have more substance. I also always loved the pattern recognition of mega man or bullet hell games. These types of mechanics make for tough and memorable gaming experiences. I look forward to more of your content and your game on final release!

You could add a speed boost to the slide depending on how close they were to the ground when they hit space. That way skilled players can still express their skill and get rewarded. And if you’re just holding space before you’re close enough to the ground you’d just get normal slide speed which would still build up speed but not as quickly.

Interesting watch. Maybe for sliding, what you could do is have the slide activate as it is now, but if the player gets the timing spot-on, they get a bigger boost? Mechanics like that which add onto previous mechanics are pretty interesting imo.

Love seeing the process of you improving the game. Can't wait to see more

Cool video I wish you success! I am a modder and you do over all pretty cool stuff. I also love quake games and especially RtCW

Awesome video, really helpful! I'm also working on a small game right now and used a similar wall-running implementation. Getting feedback like this early on is really valuable and I'll definitely keep this in mind for the future development. Thank you so much!

Great informative video, love the updates and transparency. Can't wait to play some more when I find time!

I was part of the early playtest and it was great to put in my feedback, it's great to see the progress. (especially for that fov)

I applaud your way of thinking about game design, you really seem to put a lot of thought and care into the project. Awesome video! 👍

This single devlog was so informative that it made me want to try a game that is in a genre I wouldn't otherwise be interested in. Great work!

Great video! gives me alot to think about for when I do playtests on my game

You've earned a new sub, a wishlist, and a lot of good karma! One of my many aspirations in life is to make my dream FPS game, your videos are so insightful and entertaining, and I can't wait to try out Bloodthief!

I think you made some really wonderful changes to the playtest! As I know I played the first vs second and it was so much more intuitive (to me). I hope you keep up the good work :)

Downloaded your demo and left some feedback! Can't wait to see how your project turns out :D

wow I came into this devlog to check on the project, but in the process I learned so much about gamedev. awesome video

This looks amazing!! I could not imagine how cool custom maps would be for this game. Keep up the great work!

One of the coolest game projects I've seen on RU-vid, joined the playtest immediately, keep up the great work!

I think the most important thing to consider when deciding how checkpoints are is "Is the part they're sent back to relevant to where/why they died? For example, I quickly quit playing Pizza Tower because I died during the escape sequence at the end of a level (the only part where you can die) & got sent back to the beginning of the level (where you can't die). It didn't add to the challenge. It just made me bored & made me instantly stop caring about the game. If it's impossible to die on the way back to the checkpoint, you may as well be making me rewatch a custscenes or stare at a wall. I've done it, I've seen it, & its interesting exactly one consecutive time at best. It's like if you died in a Sonic game & had to run a few hundred loop-de-loops to try again. What's the point? Similarly, I quit Little Witch Nobeta during its early access days because the only hard boss was after a series of long uneventful hallways with no checkpoint in between. I'm not gonna try to git gud if I have to get through long filler between attempts. It's not much different from that thing in A Hat in Time's Death Wish mode where you die too much in a rift collapse & then you just have to wait for literally no reason. I despise the finales of Dead Center & Dark Carnival in Left 4 Dead 2 for that very reason. Too much retreading & waiting to get back to the part where the challenge is. There's a good reason why Paper Mario 2 has a save point after its intro. Because in the off chance that someone dies to Crump, it would make no sense to send them back to Mario's house. That's also why I don't like when I die in one level of a game & get sent back to a different level. I already beat that one. I'm not interested in doing it again. I'm willing to restart True Arena in an old Kirby game if I die near the end but I'm not willing to replay the level I beat to unlock True Arena in the first place. If Half-Life 2 were made by the average modern indie roguelike or soulslike dev, you'd get sent back to the beginning of the lab scene in A Red Letter Day for dying at the end of Route Kanal & fans would literally pretend it somehow makes the game harder & better. If none of what I just said sounds like your checkpoints, you're probably doing fine. Not that it's impossible for checkpoint starvation to get excessive even when it does send you somewhere relevant. Being forced to restart an hour-long fight against a single boss with three moves will make the fight harder & is therefore relevant to the challenge but it'll also be boring beyond words.

Amazing video! I'll be sure to recommend this to as many friends as I can, keep up the great work!!

Super glad this devlog showed up in my recommended cause this game looks sick. Looks like everything I wanted Ghostrunner to be. Wishlisted and am gonna try the playtest in a bit!

This stuffs dope man, keep working at it. Your thought process is excellent and informative

You could add more check points, but give the option to skip a checkpoint and take extra points, collectibles, or powerups with them. Reward good players with clout points or bonuses, and still allow worse players to eke by if they want.

I love your game so much, it looks awesome I can’t wait to see more progress on it

Amazing, so good to understand the full loop, stuff to improve, how you discover that and how you improve it :D

I loved this video and your game, thanks for sharing your experience and helping other game devs!

Cool that you taking some inspiration from Ultrakill, I interested to see how some mechanics can look in a fast paced melee game

This game looks great, looking forward to trying it out when it's in a more complete state. Another suggestion could be to enable maps made by other players with something like Qodot or some sort of level editor. Quake 3 Defrag or Quake 1's jam packs has some amazing maps made by talented map makers, which could also benefit a game like this and give it an infinitely scalable experience.

I thought of a cool detail you could make The blood bar leak blood when to signal the fact that it’s losing blood

Very nice! Great job on the improvements you found for your game.

Not really sure how I could incorporate these things into my game. In an RPG, there's only really battles that you have to worry about. However in my game, there's a bunch of different options as to how you go about battles. You can take a party, or you could go solo. You can upgrade your weapon, or you can give it a special ability. You can equip a weapon with a different element than its wielder, sacrificing damage but allowing spells to deal level 2 effects. These are all great things you can do. I feel like having that open-ended feeling to my game is fun in an RPG setting. I'm proud of how weapon abilities work, since they sort of override the damage formula for their own, allowing for custom damage values or even leaving out element checks. Spells in their own right, will have a special input that increases damage based on how many correct inputs you got. This was initially meant for dodging attacks but felt out of place. I'm not quite sure of how to go about dodging attacks yet since I could simply add a button that does that, but that sacrifices the player's ability to attack, and also makes defending obsolete. I'm sure I'll figure something out at some point. Either way thanks for reading.

Great video! I'm glad I got recommended this, your channel should be bigger! Was super interesting to see the feedback you got and how you responded to it. Was interesting to see everything from the developers perspective. Also your game looks really fun and now I'm looking forward to the full release :D Is there an ETA?

I feel like you got everything wrong at first, but you were able to fix it afterwards! Nice demonstration. Oh and I love this transition! 9:50

It's those quality of life parts that make great design. Forgiving but punishing. Forgiving is coyote time for example. Have a little extra time to jump right after you stop being grounded. It doesn't make the obstacle any easier. It just means you can focus on actually passing the obstacle rather than focusing on yourself and not being clunky. Imagine if in Overwatch, if you hit the shoot button but you're deploying an ability, reloading, running or anything. Then you won't shoot. And suddenly in a stressful situation now you're not shooting and dies. You'd have to focus more on your own controls than the actual enemy. So the gun instead fires immediately after your skill or activity is done. Get an expected reaction from your action. Don't be picky. My favorite is not using a button being pressed down or held down. Instead when I press the jump button. I run a timer of .2 second and in that time. I'm always jumping. This means even if I'm too early with my jump, I will still jump as soon as I touch the ground. This feels *SOOOOO GOOD* and really responsive. Responsive controls are perhaps the most important part of a good game to master first.

6:41 you might want to consider adding a second hand to brace against the wall to help indicate the "wallrunning state," too.

Well, this is basically my perfect game I've always wanted... So excited to help playtest! :D

My thoughts about punishment: In more linear games checkpoints should put the player against a certain challenge. Like for example there's a difficult parkour section that might require a lot of effort to get through. The player will most likely need several tries to get it right so the checkpoint shouldn't be very far away, as running for several minutes only to die on a hard section and having to do it all over again really sucks. But once the player completes that section, they effectively get all the "entertainment value" out of it. Like the actual fun in encounters like this comes from trying and failing until you finally master the stage and are able to go further. But once you've completed this trial, there's no more learning and mastering so if you have to replay it again because you've died somewhere later, this would quickly get old.

For teaching anything in games it is best to go with the show-teach-test method. For the slide jump, as an example, you can do this by having a low entrance to an area to slide under, then another low obstacle with a small obstacle afterwards that players will instinctively jump over. Those paying attention will notice how that combination of a jump while sliding launched them further. This result could even send them onto an alternative route where they'd realise it wasn't possible to reach this spot had they not performed a slide jump. Only later do you then test the player with an obstacle that requires a slide jump to progress.

Looks fun, what if for wall run, you make an animation for the arm to move out to the wall as if it’s trying hold on or just slide along it, just an idea the sound effects work good enough. But it could also be used to see how effective a wall run is (speed does it too so again just an idea) if you start a wall run your hand way high and Close to your body, then if your at max speed your hands moves lower and in-front of your body.

Hey, Blargis, nice work. I don't design games or even play that many, but I really enjoyed this video. Seeing the stages of deciding how to assess the playtests, getting the assessment tools together, analyzing the results, and solving the problems that turned up was satisfyingly scientific. For my two cents on the checkpoint/punishment dilemma, Super Mario World's solution holds up. The amount of punishment one checkpoint can spare you, roughly halfway through a SMW-sized level, feels just right. Not only that, but snapping the ribbon on a miniature version of the end-of-level goal posts is very satisfying. Keep up the good work! Bloodthief looks like a lot of fun!

reminds me a lot of q3 defrag, lol, nice job and good devlog, wish you all the best, we indie devs are having it tough at times

my girlfriend insisted on watching this with me and we both lost it during the rocket (arrow?) jumping segment at the end. Looking forward to getting to try this game out!

I wanna say, Good on the checkpoint idea. Im no game dev but for fast games like Hotline Miami and Ultrakill dying feels bad but since the games are so fast and let me jump right back in it doesnt feel bad at all, Im back in that rewarding gameplay loop, just earlier in the level. I think what you have on this part looks good. also the game looks rad as hell. keep it up

"Always assume the player only knows wasd when designing and teaching movements" - me

Just finished the playtest and wanna say, great work on everything it was a ton of fun! Cannot wait to see this development process continue :) Also just had an idea, I'm sure this is already on the list, but some menu music/ effects might be a nice touch. Definitely a *finishing* touch tho

Cool video! Loved your approach and how you handle feedback. You're killing it 🔥

Looking forward to more - I found your channel right as I started playing around with Godot, really enjoying watching the devlogs and seeing the project grow.

Deflecting arrows is a great idea. Not only does it remove a source of frustration, it adds a whole new dimension of skill and mastery to the game.

This is a fascinating video! I’d love to be able to do what you’re doing, and you should be proud. If you want to keep some of the skill aspect of the Slide Jump, you could give the player a speed boost if they do hit the timing right! That way it’s just as easy to learn, but makes it more difficult to master by raising the skill ceiling. Good luck!

Thank you for sharing! Every developer sharing experience of their game in RU-vid is very inspiring, because of the lessons the viewers can take from videos. For example, here the lesson seems to be about the reviews, which may not be great and be discouraging, but on the other hand, to throw away the product because of this is way too much. Instead, a better alternative is to find out what is wrong and trying to fix it.

Your game looks amazing im glad i clicked, my biggest critique for the way it feels would be the sounds, theyre super important for the feeling, and they could be way better.

this is a really cool series! I am thinking of majoring in game design (got into a few programs already, just have to decide where im going) and itsis very interesting seeing how you react to the feedback!

Great video. Edit: I've wishlisted the game is it looks interesting and with what you have talked about it sounds likes its worth at least trying out. Good luck on your game.

This definitely reminds me of Ghostrunner's mechanics. Nice to see.

Nice video, maybe this comment wont be that useful but I thought I should mention a thing I noticed in fast paced games. I bought clustertruck (the game where you jump from one truck to another avoiding obstacles) the other day and I loved some levels while hating some other levels, I noticed that the levels I hated were once that limited how quickly I can complete them (timed flame throwers, timed pistons, waiting for laser wall to toggle off and standing on the first truck waiting for it to get closer to the goal) while the levels I loved were the once with more static obstacles that do not limit how quickly you can complete a level. So, I don't know how useful that might be to you, but I personally think that fast paced games should avoid obstacles that somehow limit your speed having you wait for something to toggle off (imho)

Amazing project, I’m amazed seeing this entire project. I believe the time freezing is a bit unnecessary for the parrying, other than that, you executed everything else perfectly

Super good video 🖤 will join the playtest right away :)

Textbook case study. Excellent video!

I think something less-talked about that can make a huge difference is not so much how much progress you lose when dying, or frequency of checkpoints, but how long it takes to get back into the game after dying. celeste and ULTRAKILL are among the few games that get this right. I don't get mad at ULTRAKILL even when I've just died to Sisyphus Prime for the literal 200th time, because im instantly back to try again with nothing more than a single key press. i get mad at a souls game because going through even a 10 second long loading screen(its even worse if there's a lengthy runback to the boss, like with most of Lies of P's bosses) in between every single death becomes tiring and extremely frustrating after even just 15 times, and I end up wanting to just cheese the boss or brute force it or whatever just to get it over with rather than properly master it. if a game EXPECTS the player to die a lot, then it shouldn't waste their time in between each death and letting them back into the game.

Hello Mr. Blargis, Firstly, your project is fantastic! I have a few suggestions that might enhance it further: Enhanced Alert System for Archers: I noticed the presence of archers in the game. It could be beneficial to introduce an auditory alert when they are targeting the player, especially if within a certain range. Additionally, a visual cue, such as a brief flash emanating from the bow, paired with the audio alert, would assist players in recognizing and responding to this specific enemy type more effectively. Guidance for Movement Mechanics: In your video, you mentioned players were unsure about wall jumping and sliding to gain speed. To encourage the correct usage of these mechanics, you could incorporate distinct sounds, add effects (like speed lines), maybe IK with one leg, this will associate positive reinforcement with these actions. For example, designing a section of the game that's only accessible via a wall kick could serve as a practical lesson, teaching players the necessity and utility of these moves.

when I clicked the video, and saw the game, I was like: what is this shit game, but wow.. this is amazing, I love it. I also like that you listen to player feedback, it's pretty uncommon nowadays. Keep up the great work! Subbed + Wishlisted!

An important factor in deciding how much you want to punish the player for failure is how many mistakes it takes for the player to fail. If the player can die from a single mistake, it's going to feel frustrating if they lose a lot of progress, whereas the player having the opportunity to recover from an initial mistake will make punishment feel more deserved. You can fairly easily double-dip on this, though. Having a rank or badge for beating a level without dying pushes challenge-driven players to perfect a level without forcing that limitation on more casual players.

Yo, your game looks pretty sick. It's going on my steam wishlist now

Oops. Looks like RU-vid decided to eat my comment? Ug, not gonna type out everything out again, but this video oddly came into my feed at the right time. Been trying to find ways to encourage players of my side-scroller to take advantage of the game’s mechanics to overcome the challenges, like tougher mobs. The issue is that people get frustrated and drop the game. The people who I did watch don’t even experiment with the mechanics to figure out how to overcome a tougher enemy. I like the statistic approach you’ve implemented. I’m on itch right now but this has motivated me to get the game on Steam sooner

amazing devlog, thanks for sharing!!

Love the video, keep up the good work :D

Bro this game looks amazing! So much potential for new areas, enemies, weapons and potentially lore. Really looking forward how you will develop this game :)

I love what you did with deflect, i never heard about your game but it looks like a something similar to "ghostrunner" in which i played like half an hour because it wasn't fun when i was getting hit mid-air and couldn't really do anything about it, despite loving the theme i just couldn't play it... It was way too frustrating. Again, great job with deflect mechanic!

Very cool devlogs! Inspiring for me.

That moment in FTL was also amazing because the game is built around dying, so all the work that lead up to that wasn't debilitating.

The game looks so good and the momentum idea really promising. Keep on man! Idk if its me but it gives me ghostrunner vibes, which, is amazing in my opinion

Have you considered making checkpoints an option? Like an easy mode that adds additional checkpoints

Good stuff man!

Great video, I really appreciate the detailed explanation of both dev's and players perspective on the discussed matter. It really helps me understand my own reception of a game, which leads to either giving a better feedback on it, easier solving my own problems with the game, or both. Sometimes it IS a skill issue. Sometimes it's devs being way better at their game than me and not really realizing it. Regarding the punishment for a failure in a game, I always look at it as a balance between game testing me on a resource management and my mastery of the combat or platforming. Like, If the game is somewhat about resource management, It's okay to have multiple challenges (combat or otherwise) that do not have checkpoints in between. In Bloodthief that resource seems to be blood (I haven't found any other during my time with the test version). Thus, I do not see much point in checkpoints being far from (or separated at all) from those blood pools that give you said resource. At the same time, I believe that adding optional hard gauntlets with rare or no checkpoints for those that seek said challenge would be really cool. Overall, I love both the game and vids and can't wait to see more of both!

Keep upp the awesome work, good sir !

excited to see more!

I love how you mention that "unituitive does not equal challenging." It's so true, and it's the worst part of so many games. I don't want to fight the controls, or the camera--I want to fight the enemies!

That's insightful. Thanks

Something to mull over for your difficulty/checkpoint conundrum could be to give the player the choice to start over back at a checkpoint or start over entirely. Where completing a level from start to finish in one run can offer some kind of gratification, like a "one run/clean run" check mark/badge for each specific map, or really anything that indicates that the game is acknowledging the players accomplishment and hard work. If there was some kind of incentive for doing a level in one go aside from for the sake of doing it, I might be more inclined to challenge myself and go the extra mile.

That's a first time youtube recommends me a video on an indie game I never heard of that looks really good to me. I have one suggestion, did you think to add insane air control like Quake 1 bunnyhopping? It makes you go faster when you turn, so its a really fun way to gain speed and dodge projectiles.

This game is now a mix of intuitive controls and an HD retro aesthetic! Good work 👍