Mango and Lucky Rant About Smash Controllers 

You know what, no more controllers. From now on players will just let the melee intro play on loop and just bare knuckle box until someone gets knocked out.

Imagine showing this video to the melee community in 2005... UCF, B0XX Controllers, Goomwaves, Phobs... Crazy how far this game has come

Just wanted to mention that I managed to run into Lucky at a brewery somewhere in Anaheim like 7 years ago. All around awesome person, even let me buy him a pint for a picture- he was very much happy to do that! But too bad I lost the photo now. I wonder if he still has that nice melee-themed Gorillaz album shirt. Good times.

I'm a boomer who likes OEM-only, but if I had to pick a solution, I would go with software mods (aka button remapping, like in 1.03). Gives access to everybody equally

People think this controller issue arose from people wanted an advantage. It came from people who were sick of looking for that controller which was "just right" or people who had LITERALLY HAND INJURIES FROM PLAYING. Does no one remember M2K from a decade ago coming to tournament with like 7+ gamecube controllers?

The pros have had access to controllers that gave them an advantage for years. Most people struggle to find a working GameCube controller at all. For a while if your controller broke you had to either fix it yourself or know a guy. Same with notches, etc. The box and goomwaves are all just a natural progression of that.

Thanks for annotating this stream clip, I love it

The complaint i'm hearing 'it costs money so it's sus' as a brand new player to melee, you have to get a controller either way, and it's not like legit gamecube controllers are cheap, and it's not like a shitty used gamecube controller from ebay is fair when pro players are buying brand new or modded controllers. At that point, I think the argument for accessibility has tooth, and it reasonable to start the conversation at 'what kinds of controllers alternative to a pure gamecube controller will be acceptable?'

Dude this video was great we need more smash discussions like this

Having this with Sonic Robo Blast 2 music in the back for a bit made this even more of a treat to watch over, ngl

Another thing to remember with z jump is that a mouseclick z is MUCH better for endurance. The normal z or tactile z replacements take 8 million times more force to actuate.

loved the Senna reference from Mango ❤

There really should be a universal button map implemented just like UCF

just implement software fixes. nobody wants to admit 1.03 is better for the game because hax posted cringe when he was going through shit. doesn't change the fact that he's a melee scientist and his software solutions would be good for the game.

Lucky taking the Trevor Bauer angle. "It's absolutely cheating, but everyone's doing it, so I'll do it until someone says I can't."

Hypothetically if I wanted to get my controller modded, what's the best way to go about doing it? I just ordered some spare parts and a new controller, so I'm gonna have like 3 controllers to mess with.

The part of them talking about hax$ and the politics behind it was super interesting and it seems like button swapping is now political is pretty interesting, thanks for uploading

I haven't paid close attention to melee scene in last couple years so I'm curious how allowed controller have evolved rules wise. Do the versions ppl play tourneys on have the ability to turn off tap jump and things of that nature?

tbf 1.03 fixes a lot of controller shit but you don’t hear many people advocating for it

This is a dope highlights

TRUE DOOD, i hope the controller revolution eventually evolves to something standardized. I think a big problem right now is the level of tuning and customization that is possible from the end user perspective. When controllers are competing both in the front of “my controller sucks enough to be legal” but also “my controller has more features and “cheatures” than the competitor” it’s just not gonna be competitive until some regulator comes in. And god, i pray that regulator isn’t blur or leffen

The really messed up part is that Nintendo will not allow the mods in tournaments that would make this accessible to everyone, so it's actually just Nintendo's fault.

How are they swapping from light shield to normal so quickly? At like 1:10

We should want a new player to be able to pick up a player and start learning immediately as there's a lot to learn. They shouldn't be thinking about "should i get capacitors in my controller because the falco laser dashback catches?" The investment into the controller won't make the player better, it will just remove these annoyances that happen. 1.03 UCF with Z-jump on a slippi build sounds pretty fun in comparison.

does it stop being pay to win if i get the dremel and soldering iron out and DIY it myself

what situations does mang0 use claw for?

Everyone gets a tested standardized controller from the venue at LAN tourneys. It's the only way or just outright ban controller above certain price points...

I didn't know z-jump was a thing, but I did map jump to R on ultimate for the same reason.

1.03 adds the in software button remapping

Isn't z swap available on 20xx memory card 1.03 for like 20 bucks

Don't we have 1.03 (and stealth edition) that addresses all these issues?

i think these controllers are fine, oem gc controllers only get older and older, i think boxx and goomwaves and phobs are good standardizations/modernizations

yo the ChainDive music in the intro??

Isn't this the same as xbox having the basic $60 controller and the $180 elite controller with paddles on the back?

from an outside perspective it seems kinda crazy that it is recognized there are some gamecube controllers with inherent hardware advantages over other gamecube controllers and people don't want to allow new controllers that kinda standardize these advantages so that everyone could have access to them, especially given how there isn't a steady supply of new gamecube controllers to begin with idk im just a dude who plays mostly st and shmups tho so there might be something im missing

claw is better because you can have a finger on the z button and y button and r button and thumb on b so you can grab immediately on top of jumping immediately and can grab cancel easily

pls make button remapping from 1.03 standard.

Didnt know mang0 was a Senna fan. 2 goats fr

I hope everyone knows that you can in fact light shield with a button on oem, you can just buffer it with Z.

Doing claw you use up like 5 frames minimum IRL just to get into position.

Hands up for the Custom Robo music playing

what was the song in the background

The Senna reference is just golden

Where can i buy luckys Controller?

Why are we not playing 1.03?

Its the falcon vs puff argument. OEM is just sicker

were notches and snapback reducing shit not being used way before boxes? How was that not cheating

Since day 1 I've been on the train that we should just mod melee with modern smash game button remaps. Since a lot of this is you have to pay to have buttons changed just add the feature into the game. Lets add a tap jump off method just full button remaps we aren't in the early 2000's anymore

I think rivals does controllers best, everything is legal and it works just fine because everyone has the same set of controls on any hardware

theres the same problem in other parts of the larger fgc with boxes but i believe that they should be tournament legal, as you can still win trust me if you’re good enough you can just kick their asses the same as anyone else.

What's a short hop?

I know it’s irrelevant but what’s the song at 3:15?

nice video!

The box and controller argument sounds like controller vs mouse and keyboard on apex

Life is pay to win man

I'm all for rectangle controllers. I have some friends with hand pain that literally can't play as much Melee as they want without them. It's an accessibility issue to me, and that to me is more important. More people able to play Melee means more Melee which is more good. I agree that this leads to various issues, and everything talked about in the video is valid. What's the best solution though? A nerfed rectangle controller?

there is a dophin z jump code

Good editing

I started the z jumping convo on twitch

What is that mod where he switch between light and hard shield really fast?

They never should've allowed modified controllers in any way. I knew it was doomed the second they started notching.

i think the rules should move towards "anything is okay as long as the controller doesn't sequence inputs aka buffering or auto/turbo anything"

Someone has to be able to add button remapping into the game? It's so old and we already have so much or the code and modes to make it better.

lucky getting his "power unleashed" is the equivalent to krillin getting his power unleashed in dbz Kappa

4:08 is this the custom robo music!?!?!??!

doesn’t 1.3 solve nearly all of these issues by not having a hardware requirement for an issue that can be solved with software? i don’t understand.

What was the intro music?

Personally I think button remapping should just be a thing, but there's no way that will happen. With Nintendo being the way they have been lately, there's absolutely no chance that we would be able to swing using anything other than vanilla Melee on stage/stream. Otherwise, Big House 10 wouldn't have gotten cancelled.

This is why we need to standardize Hax$'s Melee 1.03 mod

I’ve played melee on emulator with a keyboard for over 5 years… thoughts?

"If you could just change some settings..." That's literally what 1.0.3 is, did people forget or are we still being stupid about Hax$?

This GameDev style of content is pretty damn interesting !

Are analog buttons for controllers like the box really impossible? We are getting keyboards with analog keys like the Wooting 60HE and their other brands. I imagine if you have analog keys you can do all angles with just 4 keys, different levels of shielding and etc. Never heard of someone trying one for melee though.

Nice to see my age group still in tournaments. anyway, Back when the PALS version of smash bro's was out and only available in europe, which nerfed shiek, people were making excuses to not to purchase those updated patched games. (especially chain-grabbing shiek players) Wouldn't the newest version of smash brothers with the newest patches and content be the standard? (Yes) During that time there were also people cutting into their controllers to wedge spots for their C-sticks to fall perfectly into during play and other mods that simulated multiple buttons being pressed at an inhuman rate. You don't deflate the footballs pre-game. Boxers stay in a weight class, Ping pong is a trademarked sport in which all players use the same wooden paddle. Wouldn't any of this point smash players towards the idea we actually should be using the same controller for fair and honest play? (yes) Our tournaments in the past were less organized, more backyard, mall, game-store, rented out a restaurant style organized. This games tournaments and competitive base came from kids, teens and young adults. We weren't perfect by any means. This aint the olympics. Nintendo isn't trying to make smash into the olympics. They just want money. And they don't care about smashers, they may even resent us--just look at their behavior in the past towards us. The dedication, and desperateness of these players, in this messy competitive atmosphere, has lead them further along a process where simply practicing is not the only answer. These players keep appearing: they don't care, like nintendo doesn't care--and THAT has bled into the community. (Do you think anything could have helped us though?) If we are treating the game like the olympics, everyone should be using the newest nintendo designed controller built for smash brothers. And Nintendo would put a lot of money and thought into the standardized controller, keeping in mind the health of the players fingers and what the e-sport requires.

Id say the only reason im playing with boxx is cause i have bad hand problems and the boxx helps relieve that stress

mango is drunk in every single clip I've ever seen of him

i love jumping with Z button in smash Ult, it feels a lot better

Why not just use 1.03 then you don’t need to pay?

You don’t need to pay someone to rebind for Z-jump any more than you would need two for notches. (?)

Literally the plot line for Cars 3

As someone who plays slippi online with an xbox controller and wins 6/10 matches, I can relate

"B0xx is pay to win" My brother in christ you're spending hundreds of dollars for someone to mod your controller.

If people ban boxx than people with hand pain and arthritis will be forced to drop melee

The problem is exactly what Joey said near the end: accessibility. Unfortunately, Melee has a myriad of problems with accessibility especially at this point in its life cycle. Most original GCCs either are gone forever or arent consistent enough in quality to bet on, Melee lacks built in online play, it lacks good AI to practice against, it lacks many useful training mode options, and of course it lacks in game button remapping. Shit, a person might consider themselves lucky to find a decent hard copy of the game itself. These are the reasons why it's hard to compare Melee to other fighting games when it comes to rulesets, cause in other games ANYONE can remap their controller in the vanilla version of the game. If the people who make training mods like 20XX, UnclePunch and UCF could make button remapping possible then that would help the cause, because I'm all about improving player experience. I just wish we had the same privileges as other games in the FGC cause this stuff wouldnt even be an issue. I use a worn out GCC controller from the 2014 wave of production, it used to be very good actually but it's starting to have issues. I would kill to play on a Phob or Goomwave, but i dont even have a computer to play online or anyone to play with in person atm, so everyone should count their blessings tbh. I do think there should be limits, but very minimally (no macros, turbos, stuff like that). It'd be a shame to see the community go backwards in progression because they dont want people to have an advantage. I think we should have all the advantages we can get, in the end if we're putting in this huge time and money commitment to play in tournaments at high level then we gotta go all in.

i use R-jump & wavedash using the triggers. But I'm a super casual.

It's almost like Hax has been working on the in depth solution to this for over a year.

we need a cheaper alternative to box so the accessibility argument goes away

In this comment section you will find opinions from people that do not play the game.

i use oem and i play at 800 apm with a 98% l cancel rate

Isnt this what HAX$ trying to do with UFC 1.03 or something

A goat referencing another goat shit made me smile

Mang0 plays claw grip?

Omg custom Robo music!!!

I'll say it: notches are cheap we need to standardize to the DK Bongos

Hmm. It's interesting because the mario kart community dealt with this issue as well. I think they ruled that natural wear makes it legal. But in this case, now its more like hitbox vs stick for traditional fighting games. I wish I understood more to make a claim

I wonder if more players are getting into melee or leaving these days

bro said if there was a mod that does phob shit? i can think of one.

I play claw 100%... and have swapped grab to X hard-wired on my melee controller. I think simple button-maps are all okay no-matter what cause its way simple to do actually. By player/port button re-mapping would be amazing in Melee.

Idk evil labs has a point since every other fighting game has it melee should too just like how if all my friends commit crimes I should too

Ive always been a vanilla controller kinda guy. I also was anti ucf. I swear to god i never hit so many phantoms in my life... then when ucf first came out and all the phantoms came out