@@ElVid serral is good enough that i would believe him doing it early and borrow ling scouts knowing harstem can see all and therefore thinks he isnt scouted ;D serral is the one player who i am waiting for to use nydus worms to transport workers to safety and to enemy corner bases to steal as much mineral from there side off the map (it's a 400ish mineral investment to set a nydus and a hatchery, after that moving workers through cost very little time and with some decent vision moving all the drones back into the nydus if need be should be easy. make 2 nydus if it's sniped too easily ^^
@@Erebus2075 if serral would play terran he'd play two dozen orbitals just to scan a base and send in tons of mules to deprive the opponent of minerals and gas.
@@oOOoOphidian I understand that too, but there's been more than a few times where he completely misses some big shady things they did and only sees it when he (sometimes) rewinds the footage. The biggest indicators to me are when they click the mini map and land directly onto a unit coming by; Or when they want to attack the base but look ahead at everything for a few seconds or a-moving directly to an enemy on a map. He's wondered many times if these map hacks have certain features but It's also very easy to see what features these map hacks contain with a brief Google search (being able to see buildings/upgrades in progress and cloaked/burrowed units) and there's many people willing to dish out big amounts of money for them...There's even auto build to play the game for you in these "map hack" programs.. makes no sense to me why people want that.
And there you've cut to the heart of the matter. Maphacks aren't as useful in the late game because any opponent who makes it that far is almost certainly more skilled than you and at that point they've got enough counter-intel that the maphack isn't much of an advantage anymore. They'll just beat you down slowly. I watched the tempo of this game slowly slide from Harstem to Serral almost in sync with Harstem's gas reserves.
That's honestly the problem with the zerg race. They keep nerfing the units and people who can't scout so cleanly suffer and complain that the race is weak. When they should have been nerfing the vision because that's what puts serral ahead of everyone else.
@@ghosthamster6521 Terran's late game vision is equally as strong as Zerg, perhaps even more so since they can just drop scans wherever they want and they will have enough OCs to be able to do that almost constantly. Not to mention sensor towers.
Even knowing Serral is the best ever, I still don't think I quite appreciated his overwhelming skill until I saw this. Watching his side of the minimap, theres constantly multiple swarms moving around. I cant comprehend how hes able to be in multiple places at once like this and keep track of it all so flawlessly, all while responding to Harstems every move and microing individual units. Bow down to the GOAT!
@@exeggcutebenedict I think he got a few more on purpose. Zerg Players do that sometimes if they know there is no killing move coming, but its just harrass
It really is impossible to overstate just how good Serral is. Even with full vision it never felt like Harstem was in control. The multitasking is just too much
@@Macantor13 yeah I think you nailed it a multitasking disparity and ability to prioritize on the Fly made up for the gap of having basically perfect vision
this is consistent with how sc2 works. the worse player will only win on information asymetry and the better player will win on mechanics, so every minute that passes by, serral's chance of winning goes up. maphack lets you beat worse players because that info asymmetry is gone but doesnt help much against better players. this is true for every hacker that has played the game
@@luxon4 not only does it allow you to be worst players but it's also going to give you an edge to 8 players that are better than you are but not enough to overcome such a huge disparity
Harstem according to aligulac is #34 in the world, which by itself is crazy good and better than 99% of StarCraft players. But Serrall is in a totally different league which is so weird to think about how one could be that much better in a game that is known and has constraints.
Please do an interview with Serral so you two can discuss about this game, and how he felt about it. I would love to have your shared inputs on that one.
i remember heromarine on one of his streams one time saying something along the lines of maphacks aren't enough to beat someone like serral and it's very cool to actually see that being tested.
Only way I can think of would be to pick a cheese as soon as possible, based on his very first choices. Proxy where you know his overlord will not see, marine rush when very greedy, etc.
@@asbjrnfossmo1589 This doesn't work, I can already tell you the "very first choices" Serral makes ahead of time. I can tell you that in ZvP he will 16 hatch (17 hatch on third if pylon blocked), take an 18 gas, 17 pool, make 2 queens when the pool finishes and 1 pair of lings to prevent a pylon block at the third, which he will take at ~32 supply after lingspeed. He will make a third queen and if he sees no chrono on the gateway he will have 4 lings and he'll go up to 8 lings against double chrono on the gateway. There is no cheese that beats this. Also "marine rush when very greedy", what does that even mean. I can also tell you what exactly he will do against terran. You also can't "proxy where you know his overlord will not see" because you don't know where he will move his overlords ahead of time.
@@asbjrnfossmo1589 The thing is that Serral usually plays his games pretty safe vs. cheeses - the theoretical counter to the way Serral plays is to be greedy vs. him and try to beat him in the lategame because you can usually pretty safely bet that Serral isn't going to be cheesing you so you don't need to spend resources being safe vs. cheeses.. but that's only in theory - for that strategy to work you need to actually be at a comparable skill level as him in the lategame (which people just aren't), otherwise the difference in skill level will still overshadow having a build order advantage.
@@asbjrnfossmo1589 I still think it wouldn't work against Serral because he knows exactly when to scout where, what to look for, and he does it every single time. Like, even if his overlord doesn't see the proxy he can still tell (or at least assume & prepare) by the stuff he does not see in your base. And he never seems to play that greedy.
Five seconds later: "Dear Harstem, today I played aginst someone I'm pretty sure is a map hacker. Please look at this replay and tell me if you find something strange." *submits to harstem hunts hackers
This was very fun to watch. Imagine trading vs a protoss like that, when he sees everything and you dont. Impossible! EDIT: Now i think Serral should send this replay to Harstem, and complain it might be a hacker :D
Harstem finally understands how Maru feels vs late-game Serral. Sensor towers and missile turrets everywhere, Orbital Command map-hacks, and the burrow-boys still cause you to have bad trades. Serral's just on another level.
I think no fog of war is a great way to train. You should be ready to counter everything theoretically perfectly. Harstem seemed to find he didn’t know how to build a perfect late stage army, and overall did not have much of a plan that countered his opponent. Playing the wary parts of the game over and over and losing late game constantly should make you realize you need to learn how to play the late game differently. Maybe more gates and tech switches? He never used his mineral bank, so he certainly could afford another ten gates late game. Trade your ground army as cost effectively as you can, then tech switch to a mobile ground force.
@@JFox4587 The problem of that training is that it poorly translate to not hacked games cause you will not have that smooth early with perfect tech info meaning that you will never set late game in the same situation as the hacked training. The only utility it has it to highlight weakpoints in late game but it will not help iron them out anyway (you cannot train late game army control effectively when you map hack cause you start moving way earlier than normal with hack on as Harstem pointed out during the video)
@@LorisEnsatzuken ya im not saying exclusively train this way, just that if you cant win late game without fog, you know you don't understand late game. either you dont understand army compositions, or you dont understand positioning, or you can blame macro, but i dont think that is the case cuz they are just banking so its not like you have to hurry up and spend ur money effectively. ' just saying it's a good way to train your late game, but you shouldn't do it a lot obviously cuz you have to be used to playing with fog.
GG Harstem. I think this really trains the game theory and rhythm of rotations from Serral. Also think that surprisingly you still needed lots of detectors despite having maphacks.
Serral is just GOAT. When you are the best, everyone watch your games, everyone tries to play like you, everyone tries to counter you and you still win most games. That is insane
It's just incredible how serral controls his units, you can see the map how everything moves and the captain can't be bothered with every little movement, he had to choose were to keep his attention and Serral really capitalize on that. incredible player
Thats a great idea for sc2 Videos. Also props to serral for playing these kinds of games. I also think about his games against uthermal with the hp disadvantage on units
This is a perfect example of "metadata" vs "data." It's like two different games. You're playing with your eyes and he's playing with an assembled model of expectations based on what he knows of your game state and goals.
Unironically a good experiment. I’ve often wondered how much map hacking truly helps-unless the player learns how to properly integrate map hacking in their strategy it could easily become a liability. Especially with the inherent tilt factor of losing while hacking 😂😂
It keeps you pretty safe from cheese, like proxy rax and cannon rush. It basically guarantees you will live until the mid game. Now, with the pros, that is a pretty short time, but imagine bronze through platinum.
@@asbjrnfossmo1589 Maphack won't save Silver, probably not even Gold, from cannon rush. The problem is, a good cannon rusher sends 2 or even 3 probes. Metal league player fixates on the first one, fights with it, triumphantly kills a cannon: there are 5 cannons elsewhere by then. It doesn't matter that the player could see them: they don't have time to look, or skill to handle multiple threats.
It's so wild the difference in multitasking. Serral plays like he's in archon mode. There's like, two dudes in there simultanenously, it doesn't make sense.
i used a map hack once in wings of liberty. honestly as a new player it didnt help much, but what it did help with was learning what timing to expect or what pattern typically indicated a drop or advancing units or expansions. anytime i saw something that WOULD have been crazy beneficial to know through the map hacks i quietly resigned the game and just took it as a learning opportunity (kind of like a "what went wrong" in replay, but live. the one I had (only for 3 games or so) used coloured squares to indicate structures or unit types. i could set it so medivacs or drop units as white squares, bases as red squares, etc. so to answer your questions (unless map hacks have developed in the last 10 years) you cannot see burrowed units with map hacks, i think it is essentially what removal of fog of war would show, but only on the minimap.
Bro it feels like the infestors are the ones feedbacking the Templar the entire time this game, also the value he gets out of the lings and infestors, and the map control he gets with the broods and corrupters is somehow still mindblowing, he just gets every perfect trade and preserves every unit, makes no mistakes, forces every single unit movement and always has every unit sufficiently in position, actual GOAT status!
yeah true, altho I think on a second or third try harstem would maybe get better trades when he gets more used to it and might engage in better positions where serrals army is far away from
Sure, Serral knew Harstem had full vision but seeing such dominance is still insane. That's the difference between being an elite player and being the best
I think the funniest part was muscle memorey taking over and harstem throwing arround revelations left and right. DUDE you have maphacks you can see the army the whole time
You should get some friends to play 3 games vs eachother, then only in 1 or 2 of the 3 matches get them to use the maphack mod. Then you have the job of finding which game someone was using the maphack mod. Prove to us your maphack detective skills.
Serral's early queen position was perfect and deflected all the oracles. Past a certain point, the creep and overlord spread essentially is Serral's maphack so you can't even find paths to surprise him. Would love to see you do this vs Clem with a blink timing and see how much stronger it is when you know exactly where to blink :P
Before watching, I thought an irl hacker actually matched up against Serral! Little did I know, it was actually pre-agreed... _with one of the best Protoss players in Europe_ (currently ranked #34 Worldwide and #16 amongst non-Koreans according to Aligulac). Serral is *terrifying.* 💀
reminds me to a comment from winter years ago, "the difference in skill level between you guys(viewers who haven´t touch the game in 10 years) and me is about the same difference between me and Serral"
Fair play for Harstem for uploading this video. Can we all take a moment to appreciate that Serral just beat a 6.5k professional Toss player with maphacks...
I don't comment much but I've been watching for years and this video really prompted me to tell you how much I love your content. Hilarious. Keep up the great work Captain o7
Esto me gusta, y bastante porque es una Prueba Controlada, es decir se tiene un jugador profesional y del otro lado un creador de Contenido, por ende es una prueba controlada, no como en otros casos que usan trampas de manera ilícita. Buen Video
In this mod, you have maphacks, but your units like tempests have vision. Which means they can shot beyond their normal vision range so even more advantage.
I have a tournament concept : a team tournament, where in every team encounter, each team chose one member that is gonna have maphacks. They take turns in 1v1 as BO7 or something, and at any point, a team can try to remove the maphack of an oppenent, but they get only one try per encounter. This means the maphacker player has to hide his mapchack and other member must try to detect the maphacker. Their could often have 1v1 with both players maphacking also that could be fun.
Harstem: "This is amazing! I can see the whole map, and always have my units in the right position! This feels so unfair, and I love it!" Terran players with mass Orbital Commands: >.>
Now you have to do some kind of maphack roulette video where one person tries really hard to hide the fact that they have map hacks and you have to pick them out
I’ve explained it before but using map hacks can be extremely overwhelming and many players crumble because they have no idea what to do. Your hacks tell you your opponent is making dts and now you’re panicking because you have no way of responding to it without it looking unnatural.
I recomend to give it a try. Only Serral makes it work like that. Other pros and normals like me (lower Master level) cant do this against a Protoss death ball.
I mean, he is trying. You want him to catch every individual ling that gets sent across the map before it even reaches his base? That does not sound easy.
That is hilarious as f when harstem was talking crap about serial being out of position while being attacked as his bottom base without him realizing it😂
If you struggle late game as protoss. if you plan your sim city, well, build gateways near the last three planned nodes to block and path for easier cannons and defense, and navigation.. THis will make protoss late game easier to trade, and you can sac your main base since you ahve more production elsewhere, but don't go crazy its just for effective pathing/mazing, to protect and isolate your fresher rss nodes, because your income is what will atleast take you to the end... Protoss is sometimes a lot slower. or you can just expand with the gateway wall, and couple gateway... THis would be helpful... and give more tactical time for your movement of your army.. or alternative use some supply and defensive mother ship with cloak and recall.... Even when you saw the ling run bys you struggled, it seemed from a lack of a plan and your cannon placement has too much space, mix in a gateway, shield an cannon in a block you can create a really tanky wall, or you creating a pathing maze itself nad warp in a unit this forces less untis attacking your strcutures because they attempt to navigate and attack differently its okay effective.. meh.. but yeah walling wit hcannons and shields can be helpful... rss
