MARSS REACTS TO "The Secret to Winning in Smash Ultimate" 

Tf lol

I agree with what you're saying

MMM MMMM

Buried

A rap battle to end them all.

oh god a part of me wants to see that but ESAM has historically hated Peach players and I feel like he would actually get heated lol

Esams opinions can be so off though. Not at all like how grounded Mutes is

@Jl-je5wi ESAM bases his shapes his opinions on characters based on how many good moves they have and how good they are in theory. He kept saying Pikachu is busted for so long and to an extent he had a point. However, Pikachu while being very good, still suffers from the fact that he takes more effort to play than other top tiers. Pika, Shulk and Joker are in theory busted af but they take more effort to play than Steve, GnW or Rob. They're still cheating though. Pika has Tjolt and pancake, Shulk has huge hitboxes and monado and Joker has Arsene and super hard to hit. Edit: and gun, Joker also has gun

@@ether2275 Joker isn't just goated in theory. He has a much higher winrate than pikachu or shulk.

He did but it wasn't in the video

He actually watched the whole video on stream

@@yadrianortiz3664 do you know which stream

@J the stream title was "WATCH THIS"

@@yadrianortiz3664 I know, but in the stream he skipped around a lot because the video was long and he skipped the part where he talked about how Zss is SO precise marss would be better off with another character but that mightve been on the peach matchup chart video they blend together

repent to God

peach is insanely broken its cause u have fundies other chars are gonna work atleast to some degree

Because you’ve played Peach you would do so well with other characters. She teaches you footsies like mad. Float and turnip are crazy af tho. What other characters would you play?

@@2000Doriyas I play like half the cast because I find most characters in this game fun af, but I just default to saying that I main Peach, Joker, and like, Cloud or something when I get asked lmao

@@viviankong69 She's the best kind of broken there is ✨

​@@bluyuYou literally have the same main lineup as I do 😭

Yes we have a competitive term for that it's called fighter's pass 2

@@DrSwazz most of the characters that are "easy" on the list arent even FP2 chars lol. TBH, its really just Min min/Steve/Kaz. The rest of FP2 is fine. Byleth/Seph are perfectly fine, and sora is a bit annoying but ultimately is still fine.

@@eragon78 it's a joke bro

@@DrSwazz these days I dont think most people who say that are joking lol. Ive seen a lot of people who kinda mean it, even for the other half of FP2 that isnt even bad.

@@eragon78 Byleth isnt part of FP2, Byleth is FP1. Aegis is the one ure missing from FP2, and aint no way ure saying Aegis belongs with Seph and Sora

I mean that character is literally bottom 5 cuz his buttons aren't even buttons till 30 percent. If u lose to a Lucario u lost to the player, idk what else to tell you

@@cfdaboss882 that's what I'm saying, I love playing Lucario but for the most part my sick clips and combos always start with getting hit, using my air control to avoid the next hit and punish, or throwing a fair or dair to bait the whiff punish and countering; I have to let my opponent at least come close to getting in on me and that alone takes way too much effort

@@cfdaboss882 he becomes top 5 once at 80, idk what to tell you

@@geraltrivia9565 bro i ain't even think he top 10 at 80 what are you on

@@geraltrivia9565 you’re too generous he becomes RESPECTABLE at 80. The kind of respect you give a high tier character.

So many people don’t see how disgusting his kit and gameplan really are,

best oos in game, top 5 nair, up smash, down smash. Just incredible moves.

​@Jordan no everyone knows but its just so normal that no one talks about it

@@illford6921 I would agree with you but I see sooo many GnW downplayers that swear he loses easily to any swordie and that his gameplan is too obvious.

It is too obvious. Mute is a peach player. That's like gnw easiest maychup. And swordies don't automatically win against gnw but when people actually adjust their play to anti gnw playstyle than some matvhups get really fucking hard. It's just literally only the very top players do all those little things to avoid all the jank. Once that happens the roles are reversed. The gnw has to find some creative way to get in and also avoid huge win conditions when he fails. And he's super light so it feels immensely in the other sides favor. See maister vs spargo or Leo. They barely jump. They just wall out the gnw and don't land on shield and scare him into shielding and grab him. Miya gets around top swordies but he's actually playing a whole different game. He uses a bunch of other moves and timings and types of jumps on the Nair to create openings for the hit he really wants. But yeah I still agree with mutes point. In the course of a tournament you don't really get fatigued because you laugh at all the people that land on shield and upsmash and jump a lot and die for it before adjusting. Then you only have to be 100% on once someone is familiar with the matchup AND plays a theoretically difficult matchup hero

That's playing her correctly

Nah I think Cloud stays up there. Roy does belong in the same tier tho imo

Diddy up there with em

Cosmos isn't carried for playing that char. Zss is most def a harder char

Day 0 of asking for marss to come to my place for friendlies.

They're very well rounded, yes, but they don't have a proper win condition. You don't play Aegis and just win. Their recovery holds them back as well.

The best players in the world play aegis and they lose stocks when offstage all the time because her recovery is awful.

Gimmick Smash Bros!

Steve > Kazuya > Mythra > Rest of the cast

Aegis is definitely highly overrated. People tend to pay way too much attention to the fact that they have plenty of really good tools all around, but completely lack anything that's actually broken that ends stocks early. Aegis players actually have to earn every stock that they win rather than cheese them out at early percents. There's a reason why there are so few actual wins with Aegis at the highest levels.

well, he does take skill. The issue is there are different types of skill in the game. There is Interactive skill > Skill at stuff like knowing how to play neutral, disadvantage, advantage, reading people, how to condition, understanding options, etc. This skill comes from knowing how to interact with your opponent and how to interact with their options based on the MU. And there is execution skill. How hard is it to actually do the stuff your character requires once youve decided to do it. Execution skill can be really hard, such as in the case of Kazuya. However, the issue is that as you go up in general player skill levels, execution skill becomes less and less important. Execution skill is something that requires sitting in training room and grinding out what you need to learn in order to do it until you can do it on command. This is just raw practice and requires no actual understanding of the game at all. Even if its hard, its only a matter of time until you can actually do it consistently with enough practice. So at top level where everyone has put in thousands and thousands of hours of practice, its not really relevant anymore. What maters most is Interactive skill and how you actually react to spontaneous situations in the game and your general decision making. But at low or mid levels, execution skill is very much a real thing that matters. at those levels not everyone is good at execution or competent enough to do all the execution their characters require. And they may be a lot worse with characters that require a lot of executional skill because its not their strong suit. So at those levels, how hard a character is to execute IS important. Thats why low to mid level kazuyas are a joke and pretty easy to beat. But once you get to the higher level kazuyas who actually have put in the practice to grind all the combos, now they're a huge threat, because his gameplan is simple as fuck, so once they can do the combos, that barrier to entry no longer matters. But there are games where execution skill is a MAJOR part of the game, even all the way up to top level. Just look at melee. You can get to a pretty high level in melee without being good at neutral or anything like that at all and JUST grinding tech skill. There are so many melee players where all they do is grind tech skill all day long and barely know anything about how to play neutral, because its a much more execution heavy game. Its only once you get to like low-top level in melee that you cant win on just better execution skill alone anymore, and you need both to actually win now. But yea, execution skill is a real skill, its just generally not as important as the other skills. Its an issue that can be solved by just more raw practice without any additional understanding of how the game works.

​@@michaeldeleon232 nairos too busy playin with a "baby character" if ya know what i mean 😈

@@djerk2138 bruhhhh 💀💀💀

​@@djerk2138 💀

Rosa and Sheik players when the combo they practice against a non moving Cpu don’t work: 👁️🫦👁️

idk about rosalina because i dont play it but sheiks combos are extremely easy

Tell us you never played either without telling us.

rosalina doesn’t belong here lmao, puppeteer character, incredibly hard tech to master and use in your gameplay, having to learn their intricacies and play two characters at once… the combos are definitely the easier part even if they’re hard too. There’s a reason that Dabuz is the only Rosa at top level

@@claire6452 what come on man Rosa is a combo character Trust random comment on the internet told me she was. Trust

Those are like the only other characters Mute plays which is funny, bro’s so biased with this chart tbh

​​​​@@nemi9217is he wrong for saying those characters require effort?

@@Eggss_B all characters require some semblance of effort besides like G&W and Steve… it’s just that these characters are lower on the chart than they probably should be because that’s the only characters Mute really put in a little bit of time at least. I think Palu, Peach, and Bayo definitely need to be moved up to align with the rest of his thoughts on the roster. My problem is Mute doesn’t really know what he’s talking about with most of the cast, he’s speaking as a spectator “oh that looks easy!!” and there’s some clear biases with that. NO, Pikachu Icies, and Joker especially do not belong up there. “I played like these characters only and because of that, they definitely should be dooown here, oh and the top players I fought and struggled against, their characters belong wayyy up there.” It’s just a self-validation chart.

@@nemi9217 Peach and Bayo are hard to win with though... Regarding Palu, I don't think she's "hard" but more so the fact literally everyone and their mother knows the Palu matchup by now. Also she doesn't have a win condition that clutches out games or makes for comebacks. And yes I do agree with your take on Pika, Icies and Joker. I think he's just valuing the things that make the characters a bit easier than being extremely difficult to play. Also, the characters he put in the winning tiers specifically have extremely polarizing gameplans or have broken win conditions, despite their flaws. I don't agree with every placement on his list but I do agree with some. Some personal changes I would make are not having so many characters in the "normal" tier, move Rosa & Peach up to "hard to win with", and move Pika, Icies and Joker there too.

@@Eggss_B I know they’re hard, well I think Bayo belongs in normal like with most of the cast because she has the exact gameplan most of the time. Bloom shows that well and he literally thinks Bayo is top 10 and acts like she’s really easy... but my point is Mute’s reasoning for most of these characters placing just don’t align with the characters he actually plays, he should apply the same logic to all of them, but he clearly can’t because he only has tried those few characters. I’m sure this chart would be VASTLY different if he dedicated some time to all the characters, but instead it’s clear what characters he has put in some time into and has a good understanding of, and what characters he hasn’t-just surface level knowledge stuff.. and also the characters he has a bias towards because of his experiences with top player reps.

Honestly if you watch enough of competitive ultimate you should have a good idea of the win conditions and advantage/disadvantage for every character. Yeah solo Peach mains are biased but like, the Ultimate MU conversation is 5-6 years old now lol.

I have. That doesn't change the fact that some personal opinions are still heavily biased even to this day apparently. Even lowkey biased ones too for some of the characters that are massively played at high level. I don't see what the age of the Ultimate MU conversation has to do with anything if such things still exist lmao.

@@kyurei4478 The age means that enough people have been talking about this to override the bias of a few individuals. Lots of top players coming up with tier lists/MU stuff

@Doctor Swazz I highly doubt about it since there is regular complaints massively supported by a large part of players of the same characters that create new debates. That isn't necessarely a bad thing, don't get me wrong but it is when it comes from a biased point of view. Also the online era significantly slowed down the rythm when it comes to evaluating characters' potential, even with 5 years (mostly for DLC characters though). Even if there is a somehow general idea of character placements now, it's really far from overriding it in people's mind and it keeps shaking. It's not a Smash 4 situation. People are regularly reconsidering character placements for one reason or another: players complaining about certain characters, surprising results with a forgotten character and so on. Problem is, many tier lists are criticized for being too biased for this exact same reason, simply 2-4 characters generally but still. I don't say it's easy to be more unbiased when it comes to this cause they take their own experience after all, but it stays a problem is what I mean and people should be more aware of this. That's why I much prefer MU lists which I find to be way more accurate cause the bias becomes way more relevant in this context.

@@DrSwazz Solo main players of any character are pretty biased. Very few exceptions. People with secondaries are less biased generally, people with a LOT of secondaries/pockets are usually even less biased. But its very easy to get caught up in a single perspective when you only view the game from the one lens of your solo main. You only view other characters and match ups from the ONE perspective. Its hard to understand how it feels from THEIR perspective unless you actually play more characters enough to actually understand whats going on in their heads better. Even top pros who solo main are extremely biased quite often. Youd be surprised how hard they can over or under rate their characters. Low tier mains tend to heavily over-rate their characters, and top tier mains tend to heavily under-rate their characters on average. Top tier mains realize that its not automatically easy just because you're playing a top tier, so they under-rate themselves. And low tier mains are generally so much better than the people they're beating and losing to, but they're often under the impression that theyre roughly equal skill. This causes them to heavily over-rate their character's capabilities when in reality they're usually just a much better player. This is how you have situations where the best plant main with Brood thinks plant beats Fox, or Rickles thinks ganon goes even vs Palu or something. Yes, these are actual opinions of these players. But its not really surprising when someone like Rickles doesnt play Plaus at his skill level that often. He plays palus much worse than him so when he curb stomps them, he thinks the MU is more even than it actually is. Its very hard to have a more objective viewpoint on things when you solo main. Especially the better you are as a player. There are SOME exceptions, but its pretty rare.

Fair

On the other hand, I agree with Mute over Marss here; Mythra is busted, but she's not busted because she can suddenly wipe you out of existence. She's harder to win with than the top tiers on this list because she's a wall of stats rather than an x-factor landmine.

@@juniperrodley9843 same here, still hate trying to out neutral that character though

​@@juniperrodley9843 keep tryin to defend ur waifu

@@JojaBC oh 100%, that's where being a wall of stats makes a character frustrating

I mean if you listen to his explanation you'll understand why he did not just that. In relation to effort and playing a forgiving character, Mute specifically does not put him on that section of the tier list. He does not deny fox blowing you up or being a crazy character. He just does not believe he is a pick up to win character. And light being practically the only fox to carry the meta, whom mute plays often, speaks to that point.

If you think fox is easy to win with you have never played a good player on your liiiife

Wooded Kingdom ost from Super Mario Odyssey

he's really privileged but requires brain power 🤷‍♂️

skill issue

@@renarc28 facts

Top 10 bracket character EZ

Top 2? 😭

Im glad somebody said it, im tired of all the people claiming that kazuya is like one of the hardest characters in the game when u can just avoid neutral spamming one move

You’re just bad if you think he’s top 2 😭

@@xanander4693 top 3 most def. He is the only character in discussion for banning besides steve. And Steve is top 1 no debate.

Agreed. He should be higher

@@Ericspil790 All memes aside, Roy does actually take effort and focus to win when it comes to top level gameplay, so maybe not the win tier

@@RuneTacticss this applies to some character in the first 3 tiers. But doesn’t sound logical to me characters like Terry in the win tier but then Roy in “normal” tier like his setups are not that hard and his reward in crazy good. But ight ig

@@Ericspil790 (the chart is based off characters Mute struggles against as Peach at top level and has to actually work differently for with the MUs so clear biases lol) Like you can’t tell me with a straight face that him putting Joker above 90% of the cast because he’s actually “easy” isn’t just the aftershock of losing to Leo at Genesis

No Roy is actually hard, every fu**ing top player says it now.

Maister has the best emotions dude is so funny

Bro really said that after looking at 1:57.

Ikr its like kazuya and his disadvantage hes alot like rob in so many ways 🤪

Soooo true! Also game&watch is light and has no range. He must be mid tier 😢

He explains it in his video when he talks about having to put in the level of effort to adapt to your opponent and play defense like light does. And fox is not a forgiving character to play; he's a glass cannon. Part of what makes characters like ROB and Kazuya in win tier is how forgiving they are when you lose interactions. Mute knows he's busted and a great character, but specifically says he's not a pick up and win character. And that's reflected by results and light being practically only player carrying the fox meta.

Putting it too simply, he's a glass cannon without the kind of X-factor other glass cannons tend to have in Ultimate. You just gotta play well with him to win. Which doesn't make him bad, obviously; he's a great character. Just makes him less easy.

Fox actually has risk in his risk/reward situations. If you hit them, you can do 80%. If you don't hit them and they hit you, you just die unless your defense is godly. People are biased against fox because he can hit you once and it feels like you should put your controller down because he can keep hitting you, but that doesn't change the fact that fox has some very clear and VERY exploitable weaknesses. He's the definition of a "glass cannon."

atleast he isnt as forgiving as in melee or top tiers thats for sure even when they kept buffing him back from his gutted state in brawl

True

What Fox does what PR does 😮? He's hard enough that there's only one absolute consistent top player of the character. I'd argue the same for Pac-Man, mostly because Tea does combos that should've never been a thing in game 😂😂 I think their characters are more on the "easy to learn, hard to master" tier. Especially Fox with defense as Mute said. Otherwise enjoy dying at 80% constantly.

@@darkkfantasy lmao you don’t even have to combo to win as melee fox

Those are applicable to almost every character, fox's buttons are stupidly safe and fast

Mute described you in the video. Hmm opponent is a tough guy, better use jab because its busted against all other characters.

I think the combos aren’t too hard because DI isn’t a super big factor. The input complexity is moderate but that’s not on your opponent, that’s on you. I think by “hard” they means how much you need to interact with your opponent to win rather than just do something you can control. But then again they put ganon pretty high as if it’s not a uphill climb to try and make your opponent not absolutely roll you.