You can twist and turn this all you want but it does not change the outcome as it stands. They either change the rules or they don't. Putting lanes of gravel is an elegant solution, especially on tracks on which also hosts motor racing. In the latter case, they would simply remove the gravel lanes. Thinking about it, having gravel lanes with a run-off area does not ruin a race like it did for Lewis in Austin but merely punish the driver with a couple (or a lot) of positions. Then, they would still have a chance to fix their mistake. I'd say, on all circuits with large run off areas, add the gravel lanes and on circuits with large gravel banks, change it to gravel lanes and convert the remaining space behind it to a run off area.
Adding gravel to corner edges is not the solution. Either is curbs or speed bumps or walls. Race tracks are used by other classes and not just F1.. adding gravel would probably result in numerous motorcycle fatalitys next time there is a trqck day.
Lol, it's not about the result we all know the FIA will rule no new information (as they always do). This is about showing Max Verstappen has never and will never win a championship without controversy, twisting the rules or straight external assistance. If you can't touch them now, go for their reputation. He'll be a forgotten champ faster than you can say Jacques Villeneuve.
Why should circuits have to spend more money just because F1 doesn’t care about improving their stewards? Make MotoGP more dangerous for a stupid reason like F1 can’t police themselves?
This will be about Verstappen’s braking - his braking trace shows he initially brakes hard, then reduced his braking then increased his braking again. Had he maintained his initial braking he would have made the corner. The fact he voluntarily released the braking made him not make the corner due to his own actions forcing Norris to go off. This should mean retrospectively Verstappen gets a 5 second penalty for forcing a driver off the track.
The penalty is for Lando cos he overtook off track, which is 10sec. That is still the case no matter what you think of Max. Stewards were lenient and gave only 5sec cos of the situation. Be grateful, otherwise Lando would finish behind Piastri. Even with 10sec for Lando and 5sec for Max, Max would finish ahead of Lando and extend his lead on Lando.
It's very clear that Lando overtook off the track, therefore he got a 5sec penalty. What I don't understand is why the rules don't consider that the only reason Max was ahead was because he let off the brakes with no intention of making the corner. Surely that deserves a penalty too yet it appears that's not the rule, very odd.
Of course he intended to make the corner. He only went a few feet wide. I agree though, that when you defend and don't stay on the track that should be illegal. Sand traps would fix the issue
It’s basically max being very clever with the wording of the rules, what he did imo is against the spirit of the rule but not the actual words. It needs changing as max does this every time he is challenged. Did the same to LH
@@finnfisu He had no intention of making the corner. You have to consider that Verstappen was in a win, win situation. If he missed his apex and Norris didn't respond accordingly they crash and there's no change in the championship standings. I think the fact that Verstappen only missed the apex of a corner once in the whole race should be considered and called what it is....unsafe blocking, and penalized accordingly.
I agree but this is on the FIA and the teams for not addressing this type of defending when he did it in the past. Personally, I don't blame him for continuing to do it if he's not getting penalized. He purposely went wide to keep him from passing on the outside without getting a penalty knowing at the most, he would only get a track limit warning.
<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="385">6:25</a> I don't get why everybody thinks that the rules would need to be changed for the stewards to have judged that Verstappen only stayed ahead at the apex by not breaking, not being able to stay on track and thus he also forced Norris off. It's already in the rules that a driver has to be in control. Verstappen isn't exploiting a gap in the rules as much as the stewards' inconsistency.
@@scottb9868Forcing somebody off track to avoid a collision during an overtake attempt is not the same as simply failing to follow track limits while driving on your own
@@PinkAsAPistol he didn’t even lock the brakes up so not sure where you are getting he’s not in control. Just because he ran wide doesn’t mean he wasn’t in control running wide was intentional to do exactly what it did. Block landos momentum and shut him down or force him to go wide and have to give the spot back.
You can't pass off the track... It's a very solid simple rule... If he had given the place back, he likely would have passed Max at some point as his tyres were going... It was another bad call by McClaren and they are just trying to find anyway to correct their own mistake now.. They just aren't run well as a team and it's costing them. It has all season. The argument should be that Max should also get a penalty for forcing him off the track... That holds water.
Exactly like you start your sentence: You can't pass off the track. The real one should be: You can't force other driver off track. Lando, regardless nose front or back, WAS beside him, he had all the right to corner and Max should have keep enough room for both, instead he brakes well too late, has way too much speed and doesn't make the turn just to keep Lando beside. That is what everyone overlooks in all this debate. ALL F1 drivers are notorious for this, ALL of them squeze opponents out because FIA allows this nonsense. Look at other driving series, drivers leave space to each other.
@ snowman, even if Norris had given the place back, why did Verstappen not receive a five second penalty for forcing another driver off the track, himself being unable to stay on track If this be the case, both would have received a five second penalty and Norris would would have finished third. The FIA stewards clearly have a blatant bias favouring Verstappen, their error in Brazil 21 which should have been penalized then is being used as an absurd standard without any in dept study of all relivant evidence
Great, Max get's penalized with a 5 seconds penalty for forcing Lando off the track Lando gets his penalty upped by the 5 seconds to 10 seconds for passing a car off track. And we're done.
Incorrect. A driver should not receive a penalty when they are forced off the track and retaining their position (as evidenced by the leadeboard at the time).
There is no drama to the championship so let's create some. How about calling out the driving standards in 21.....hmmmm, silence....gravel won't stop lunging.
Nothing will happen from this. As much as I think the rules desperately need an update to stop people getting away with defending like that but they won't change this now
The funny part is if Max touched Lando's car, he would have been the person receiving the penalty! This is how drivers should race with Max, it is not to give way and let max touch you!
Drivers ask for new rules, Max learn and race using this rules, than the rule becomes absurd and unacceptable. You cannot mention 2021, the rules were different!
Basically the FIA have to rewrite the rules so that they define sportmanship, and thereby install sportmanship into a driver that doesn't have it. Can't see that happening, I'm afraid.
Their big FU is telling Lando that he was ahead at the apex….which he was not. Otherwise Lando himself would’ve decided to give back the position. Lando ASKED abt it!
FIA you mean…not F1. FIA have all telemetry, all data, all cameras on track, all onboards, all angles. They don’t have to protect themselves, they use it to make the decisions. They compare the situations with prior situations and what penalty was given then. Lando made an overtake off track, that’s a 10sec penalty since this season, on request of the drivers…. The stewards were lenient cos of the situation and only gave him 5sec. He was lucky.
@@Redlingsteinall good but then where is Max’s penalty for maintaining position off track when Lando made a legitimate pass in Austria. Even by Max’s standards it was a legitimate move. Face it, if he is defending then whole track is his if he is overtaking. Then he will cry a cars width wasn’t left. That’s where we are with F1 now.
From what I understand passing off the track is normally a 10 seconds penalty. Pushing a driver off the track is 5 Seconds. It's just dumb right now. Give Max his 5 and Lando his 10 seconds, and the problem is solved.
Piastri would be 3rd, Max 4th, and Norris 5th. Do we really want a podium change a week later to become the norm. The deal should be dead as soon as the stewards leave the racetrack.
@@KBowWow75The point is that drivers who keep doing this will finally realize that it is not ok. Changing the result post-finish isn't something we like to see, but we also like to see battles going on from corner to corner instead of being killed instantly by somebody who decides not to take a corner and force others off track, so... Besides, if they don't like changing the results, maybe they should try judging correctly in the first place.
@@PinkAsAPistolit was judged correctly as per the rules which are the problem. They need to amend the rules. And I agree once the podium ceremony is complete the results of the race should be locked.
Verstappen gained an advantage outside the track with Sainz similar to Norris. Sainz was first to the apex and Max kept his position by running very wide. 10 sec penalty. + 5 at the start when he forced Norris wide. Thats 20 second in total including yours.
@@hh-jy1ldShould the rules need to be saying that being ahead at the apex is only relevant if you are driving in a controlled manner and able to stay on track? Because they're already saying that. In fact, the stewards effectively admit that Verstappen should have gotten 5 seconds, only they naively turned that into a 5 second penalty for Norris instead of 10 that he would be getting otherwise. So I think it's just poor judgement. Also, your last point wouldn't work. What if they were unable to decide before finish? Just keep the result as is?
😂😂😂 stewards have all data and all cameras. Zak Brown is simply STILL TRYING TO DEFLECT ATTENTION FROM THE FACT THAT FIA HAS ORDERED THEM TO CHANGE ALL THEIR REAR WINGS cos of the DRS FLEXI WING.. Incl the Austin wing. FIA has declared them all illegal. And Zak is despirately trying to deflect attention. Zak should be glad Lando only got 5sec cos the penalty for OVERTAKING OFF TRACK AND GAINING A LASTING ADVANTAGE is 10sec as of this season! 😂
Did they talk to Haas about the right to review. Didn't help them one bit but cost them money. Shouldn't McLaren review their own pitwall for a change.
This is sad when Michael and senna did these things in terms of racing to the limit of the rules it was fun to watch. But now that it is max doing it they can’t stand it. These are the moments that separate the greats from the really good drivers. People really need to stop getting mad at max for doing something that is within the rules still. Until the rules are changed there is no point in complaining. At the end of the day lando had the pace to overtake him and he couldn’t. McLaren failed lando by not telling him to give the position back. Instead of crying about it take a look in the mirror and see what you could’ve done better so that problem doesn’t occur again. McLaren is the team of the boy who cried wolf at this point. Stop blaming others because you couldn’t get the job done
Max is a dirty driver just like senna and michael. I can't deny that Max have been entertaining to watch until 2021, but i never really liked the way he attacks/defend. Clean racing is much better than taking advantage of inconsistent rules, that's why Alonso is my favorite driver and Ricciardo divebombs at redbull were so good.
The issue is the fia keep sucking the Dutch sausage, any other driver gets a penalty for doing what max keeps getting away with, if I'm a driver, I'm telling every other driver from now on that's how we race.
I don't care what anyone says, I don't like the "get out of my way or we both crash" approach to open wheel - and broadly open cockpit - racing. It's fine with touring, GT, stock car, pretty much anything else really. But a box ticking exercise that ends with a driver being forced wide trying to avoid potentially race-ending wheel or tire contact, I would argue, is a moment where in fact no racing even actually happened. It's like they all need to get in a big room with the FIA, call it something appropriate like The World Motorsport Council or whatever, and get this sorted over the winter. But that's difficult and the FIA doesn't like difficult.
Morris didn't get 5 points for moving under braking or 5 points for 4 black and white flags in same race so stop this shit give him 5 points back then give him the 10 points for the other 2 infringements
I always hate it when teams try to decide the championship pleading to the stuards to give someone a penalty. McLaren has had the fastest car for most of the season. Just drive it better and make better strategy decisions. Don't try to give someone a penalty a week after the race.
@MIEJ4 it's also part of the game that so.times the stuards screw you over. Get on with it and make sure you don't get in that position again. If Norris wouldn't have left a gap at the start, he wouldn't have been in this position. He probably would have fought with Leclerc for the win with Max trailing in 4th place. You can say Max is pulling tricks, but he has to defend the WDC with the 3rd fastest car.
And the British Sky journalists will walk around the track all day looking for fellow Britons and asking the same question expecting the same answer. Completely useless. Norris was not ahead at the apex final!!!
@@MIEJ4, without Max going off, maybe. However, remember Max had the right to the racing line and not obligated to give way. Norris should have given the place back and overtaken Max in another 2or 3 laps. Then again, it's one thing to be catch Max and another to overtake. I also fail to understand what Norris is fighting for. Max will win the championship.
This coming from a Maxipad fanboy who started crying when Lando divebombed him in Austria. Then started crying when Max crashed into Lewis in Hungary 😂
All very boring. It is much more interesting just to look at the technical side rather than the sketchy management of race craft. Last week was the second time RB take out or wreck someone's race. (Perez took out Sainz, this alst time Verstappen was divebombing).
Max pushing off Lando is a clear example of his lack of skill racing wheel to wheel it’s dirty racing and the FIA should add rules to stop it in the future like they did with moving under braking
Lando was the lead car so could you not argue max was the overtaking car since max was fully behind lando into the breaking zone Max missed the point with his comments. The issue isn't with the white line despite max overtaking sainz off the track in the race too. Its the fact he pushed him off and purposely didn't try to make the corner
Honestly I don't get it , it's against the rules to pass a car by leaving the track and gaining a advantage , Max obviously forced Norris off so it's up to the stewards to decide if that means a penalty
I think that the key point which shows the baffle on their reasoning is where they admit that normally Norris should have been given 10 seconds for overtaking off track, but Verstappen also forced him there so the penalty is reduced to 5 seconds. So instead of also giving Verstappen a penalty, they kind of made it into an offset for Norris' penalty, naively oblivious to the fact that for another time, it sends the message that Verstappen did nothing wrong.
@@PinkAsAPistolwhy should Norris get a 10s penalty when the standard has been a 5s penalty? And Max behind in the braking zone so he was the overtaking car.
If Max gets punished for this, then Lando needs to have penalties for forcing george off and break checking Leclerc in the sprint, and erratic movement and moving under breaking in the main race
Like most stewarding controversies, this boils down to (1) lack of consistency and (2) emotions about which driver was seen to be benefited or punished - especially when benefiting Max. It’s both the beauty and curse of sports
It's ludicrous to me how the defending driver on the inside is allowed to outbrake himself to be ahead at the apex, not make the corner because he's carrying too much speed and push the driver on the outside out of the track and still get to keep the position. This is basically telling drivers to just send it up the inside come what may and they'll never be overtaken around the outside.
In this case what they should have done was give Max a 5s penalty and give Lando a 10s penalty. Repeat after me: You. Can. Not. Pass. Off. Track. Lando should have given the position back no matter what that was an illegal pass.
@@Hungary_0987 the penalty for Lando should have been 10 seconds for passing off the track and 5 Seconds for Max pushing a person off the track. Those are the normal penalty times.
Lifting off the brakes to ensure you stay ahead is extremely common. It happens at every race where a heavy braking zone exists, I can assure you of this.
The issue is the fia keep sucking the Dutch sausage, any other driver gets a penalty for doing what max keeps getting away with, if I'm a driver, I'm telling every other driver from now on that's how we race.
If there was a wall there, they both would have had to brake much earlier. Max being on the inside would have come out of the corner ahead 100% of the time.
Still grasping at straws...... what's the point of having umpires if everything you don't like a result become questionable..... Norris is just a prat.
@@MIEJ4 yes well if every time an opponent doesn't like a result (in any sport/competition) it becomes untenable for everyone.... so don't have competition or umpires at all.
Cost cap breach. Asymmetrical braking. Only team with a ride height device in the cockpit. Only rear mounted cameras. Recieves, by far, the greater number of controversial decisions by stewards. There seems to be a pattern emerging....
Lol, Lando got away with forcing George off, break checking Leclerc, erratic movement and moving under breaking. He received 4 times the breaks max did last weekend. Oh, and mclaren had some random on twitter about exceeding fuel flow rate, which has as much credibilty as the claim that RB were using asymetrical breaking. And the ride height thing has been cleared, just like Mclarens flexi wing. McKaren F1 team
😂 I like as Stuart looked at Alex and said Hermanos Rodriguez.....I thought no he wasnt but still a doozy if you are playing Scrabble.. Is the new evidence that they found millions of motorsport fans were found out to have eyes?? Theyre not Stewards anymore more like Stewers....they mull over things for far too long and we end up with something that smells a bit funny.....😮😮
its funny when it MAX it always the rear camera that they get and never the front facing camera same as Brazil 21 only the rear camera view which does nothing
@@KBowWow75 Cost cap breach Asymmetric braking Ride height device Fia sucking the Dutch sausage, is it no wonder he lead so many laps & races, me & you could have done the same with all those advantages.
Verstappen went off track and got a strike for that. Norris also went serveral times of track. The fact Norris went of next to Verstappen to him is not taken into considiration because Norris was behind at the Apex so it was not his corner.. Norris should be penalised for an illegal overtake. Verstappen should be penalized if he exeeds track limits 4 times or more. (Just like evereybody else). Its simple! It
@@Redlingstein you make a point. Why should Max be penalized for forcing someone of who is illegally in that position? Why is Norris allowed to exceed track limits and not get penalized?
sigh, are we still taking about this bullshit. How can there be new evidence when the facts are very clear. All videos where reviewed already by the Stewards. This is just McLaren trying to make chaos just like what Zak did with the bib which has turned out to be a nothing burger. Can we talk about actual racing again Autosport?
Max also gains advantage by running others off the track. Yes you can’t over take off track I agree but Max took himself off track too so technically they both out of bounds. Lando was being brave & put Max under pressure. You know what Max is about when he under pressure. If Max wants to play these so called racing hard dirty games then stay on the flipping track & leave a space. NEED OLD SKOOL GRAVEL TRAPS TO DEAL WITH ALL THIS NONSENSE
The hate from British brodcasters towards Horner. He is easily the greatest british team head since Brawn .I'm just so surprised he isn't celebrated more. This comment is in regards to the odd little shot at horner when talking about Landos way of not answering a question. The presenter didn't Ike it and blamed Horner. It just seems so weird to me.
THEY SHOULD HAVE AT LEAST BOTH BEEN PUNISHED. MAX MADE MULTIPLE MISTAKES WHILE LANDO MAYBE MADE ONE. Low level from the FIA ... Fairplay in queens class is hard to find 😪 Start to look like a long commercial television deal made upfront
I think they are going to try and make a case that Norris had technically overtaken Max before the braking zone and that Max was counter attacking rather than defending. If this was accepted then Norris held the position he had already taken, and Max had forced another car off the track. One of the arguments made in Brazil 2021 was that Lewis didn't get his car fully ahead of Max before either of them hit the brakes. From the camera views we've seen so far it's not clear if Norris ever got his whole car ahead before they hit the brakes. I believe that the new evidence proves Norris was fully ahead for the briefest of moments. Edit: clarification of new evidence
He did not, they were alongside, Max was not a car behind but alongside. And that is not new evidence 😂😂😂 the stewards have all data, telemetry, cameras. That just McLarens opinion…thats not new evidence 😂😂😂😂
IMHO Lando should have given the place back and the Stewards should have issued Max with a penalty for retaining the position by leaving the track to gain that advantage However, that means Lando/McLaren would have to trust that the Stewards would issue that penalty to Max which I completely understand them not being willing to do!
Yep its a difficult thing all round and need to make a split second decision, that’s why they have someone in the team that (should) know the rules inside out and can predict what the stewards should be doing.
