Medieval dagger fighting and the icepick grip - a response to Lindybeige 

It's good to see the amount of respect you guys show each other when you disagree. I'm so used to youtube being full of bile and nastiness that seeing well thought out arguments put across coherently and respectfully is a breath of fresh air.

I think I speak for the entire internet when I say that this should be settled by a duel.

Lloyd may not win the argument, but he does score points for putting it in verse!

I'm genuinely curious about the dislikes - are they because you disagree with something I said? Or that you disagree that both grips have been used extensively throughout history in various contexts, for a variety of reasons?

When a guy gets in front of the camera and speaks for 10 minutes with complete confidence and fact based on a subject it is a total pleasure to watch, THANKS Matt that was a great video, you showed your expertise, spoke about at least 3 different dagger techniques and all with an obvious foundation in many years study and diligence, I love to see experts talking on a subject they are passionate about, One of your best videos brother.

The main thing I am convinced of once again is that I never want to be in a knife fight. Or any fight of a deadly nature, for that matter. I simply have no business in such a fight. But the techniques are fascinating! And I would much rather know them or know about them if I had the need. I believe there is a HEMA club an hour away in Portland, Oregon. Perhaps I owe it to myself and my family to learn this stuff. And then I can buy a sword as well, right Honey? Maybe a half dozen to cover the different period styles? And the dagger. Cannot forget the dagger or three. Thanks Matt. I really enjoy these videos with an ongoing discussion.

Your wealth of knowledge is sdaggering.

Great points, I myself usually prefer a downward grip, though I'm definitely no expert. A lot of it is as a female, guys that work out an equal amount to me will generally be stronger, so the leverage you get from this grip helps mitigate it, quite a lot.

Thank you for this good summary! One thing I'd like to add: if you'rre unarmored you don't want to risk grappling and rather keep your distance. This speaks for the tip-up grip.

Matt, the US Army taught us both ways to attack holding a knife. I remember they also taught us a slash using the "ice pick" grip that was thrown like a boxer throwing a punch. Your videos are great stuff. Thank you, Dante.

I love your channel dude. I thought I knew a lot about weapons but I've learned something new in every one of your videos.

One of the best videos and expositions. Shows why this is by far the better european martial art-weapons related channel on RU-vid.

best video I've seen on this so far. In fact, watching lindybeige's video on this made me tune into your response. Great work.

Love it. I've been watching both yours and Lindybeige's videos and find them both interesting. Hearing two sides of the story, the back and forth about historical weapon use.

Very good instruction and information. Your a true expert, that’s hard to find on RU-vid these days

I wish there were a playlist of just different people responding to LindyBeige videos. I find the guy amicable and fairly well-read but when he misses the plot he does so in fantastical fashion. My personal favorite is still the 'Bren vs. Spandau' debacle.

you're a great cure for my insomnia, 5 minutes and I'm asleep. Thanks.

I would say that the largest advantage to the point down grip is that it is exponentially faster to deploy if the knife is sitting on your belt.

Thanks for making this video. I was struggling to make realistic looking knife animations for my game and this helped a lot

I heartily agree with your analysis. As a teacher of Talhoffer's dagger style I applaud your answer.

When I saw the thumbnail, I thought he was going to answer in poetry form. That would have been awesome!

Couldn't agree more Matt. Context is king.

When I was experimenting with butterfly knives back in the 80's I rediscovered many of the approaches you discuss in this video. Thanks for explaining it better than I could!

Context is everything. Armour! The point down grip has a much better chance of puncturing armour. I like to think of it as a big tool kit. Techniques using both grips are just more tools in your tool box.

Good video, and good points. Fighting isn't about being stuck in a single style and, for example, only holding a dagger in the icepick grip regardless of what an opponent does. Pretty sure they would alternate both the icepick grip and sword-grip as you call it, depending on what they expect their opponent to do next or in preparation for what they are planning to do next themselves.

Finally it was said. You did a quite good job on the topic!

Having now watched Lindybeige's video, he does address the icepick grip from the inside line, but he only references one action from a treatise which is combined with ducking and coming into close quarters and stabbing upwards with the icepick grip. His disagreement with that though was not the icepick grip per se, but with the "slowness" of the whole ducking and closing action before the actual stab. But even that criticism kind of speaks to what you said about context. Many "fancy" attacks seem too slow, but they're not mean to be used in a context of a standoff, but rather something that may happen in the split second you find yourself in close quarters avoiding a grapple etc.

Another excellent video Matt!

Very very well done. Great facts and clear presentation!

I really hoped you will also do this in rhyme ;D

That was great, man. Thank you.

Kudos to Matt. I think many important points were raised. Context ofcourse is the primary one. All martial arts are constrained by the context that they were developed for. Clothes and thus the season (if we are talking about European context) will be crucial factors to decide which weapons and which techniques will be most effective. As Matt mentioned, "caveman" mentality is what often dominates actual fights. Read the police reports or the more visceral scenes of the Illiad - the beastly brawl has the same body mechanics across the ages. An important point to raise - many old fencing schools as well as most modern schools of defence focus on teaching students to defend against untrained/poorly trained opponent. And those brawlers, often in hot blood and driven by anger follow the familiar "caveman" pattern. It does make sense. It is important that people who are interested in martial arts are trained to understand and react against those patterns. It is a moot point to say that sword grip, "ice pick grip", or hammer grip is absolutely superior to others. The superiority is only demonstrated by efficacy within certain context

Yesssssssssss!!!!!!! Another stellar video

Great video. When you were talking about hooking and forearm blocks it got me thinking about the tonfa. I know European edged weapons is your expertise, but any chance of a video on the tonfa, or just bludgeoning weapons in general?

I notice a funny point. I watched Lloyd video (again), this video and Thegn video. On his video, Lloyd use a really tiny blade to show his point. With a so short and fragile blade, direct grip makes some sense. You and Thegn show real medieval (long, double edged and with a pommel) daggers. Icepick grip makes a lot of sense.

Fantastic, the video you replied is the subject of debate right now on the sbg forum and this is a great addition.

You focused primarily on the thrusts/stabs, but it's important to remember that you can also cut and slash with an icepick grip - rather powerfully at that. In fact certain weapons (such as the karambit) are designed to be used with a predominantly downward grip to deliver some devastating slashes. Another important point to consider is that with knives & daggers you can change grips - and even switch hands - rather easily, so you're not restricted to just sticking with one grip or the other. You can mix & match as the situation dictates.

This is freken amazing . Thank you for educating me 5:57 is my favorite part.

An excellent summation of the main points in favour of the point-down grip. A fifth point I would add (which I'm sure Matt knows but left out for brevity's sake): - Point-down is a much stronger grip, biomechanically speaking, as the wrist is naturally locked into a less flexible but more secure position. One is much less likely to lose one's grip on the dagger if held in this fashion, especially when it is being torqued and wrenched about during a life & death struggle at extreme close ranges.

No kidding, when I first saw Lloyd's video, I automatically started waiting for this given video.

I heard that the Bowie knife was invented by David Bowie, just after his Ziggy Stardust period, as a way of vanquishing the hippy culture once and for all, while it was in its final death throws. Is this true?

Very nice explanation. I've been practicing Filipino martial arts for 40 years, so I am quite familiar with the use of icepick grip in that area. I found it interesting to see the many similarities in the use of this grip in Medieval European arts.

Never thought you could parry with point down, great video

Best short edged weapon video from the HEMA point of view pertaining to the more subtle differences in grip.

It's amazing how Matt makes these points very respectfully and yet the comments make it look as if he's attacking Loyd. There is no need to badmouth lindybeige or to say that he got "owned". What the fuck guys?

what about dual dagger/small arm weapons wielded with 1 side doing each grip style, would that not give the best of both?

I never thought of the power concept for the reverse grip. It makes sense being that the triceps make up 2/3 of the muscle in the arm. thank you for the clarification.

Let me just say that I'm not a knife fighter, and all the training I've had with knives teaches me that I never want to get into a knife fight. But a point about the ice pick grip that people tend to overlook is the fact that once you show the opponent that you have a blade, you have lost much of the advantage that the blade gives you in a fight against an unarmed opponent. A lot of self-defense instructors will tell you that fingers turn into flippers under stress, meaning that gross motor skills are much more reliable under stress than fine motor skills for those who do not practice the techniques under stress. An example of this is that I carry a firearm on my dominant hand side, so I've switched to carrying a push dagger on my non-dominant side because I am more comfortable using gross motor skills with that hand if it comes to grappling. I find that many of the fine motor skills necessary for kali escrima techniques, i.e. kitchen knife grip blade techniques, are difficult for me to do with my left hand, so I prefer to simplify it to the grappling, jabbing and hook punching that I'm already used to doing with my left hand in a fight. It also gives me a weapon in my non-dominant hand to fend off an attacker with while I draw my firearm, which I would much rather use to defend myself with than any knife, and does not interfere with my normal two-hand grip on my pistol. So it really boils down to which techniques you have trained in to the point of failure, under stress, and against skilled opposition. If you are just going to carry a weapon without taking the time to learn how to fight with it, by a reliable instructor and against skilled opponents, then you need to make it as simple as you can. And that is to use a fixed blade knife in an icepick grip, and to keep the blade hidden from the opponent for as long as you can. Or you can do the smart thing and get competent instruction in whatever weapons you intend to carry for self-defense, and to practice against skilled opponents to the point of failure. Because finding the failure points in your techniques teaches you much more about how to adapt those techniques in a real fight than anything else can. Also, your opinions on what is the best techniques or grips may change once you have actual training with the weapons, or you may decide a different weapon or fighting style is better for you. Trust me, as I've gotten more training and carried weapons on a daily basis, I've changed my daily carry several times; everything from which weapon combo I carry every day to where on my person I carry them to what clothing and accessories I wear in order to better conceal my choice carry options. Its all very personal, and can only be learned by training and experience. You might find something works better for you whereas I find it isn't practical for me, or vice versa. Semper Fi

Please never stop making videos!

Fair, informative, & thorough !!

That's pretty hardcore. Great explanations for a question I have wondered about myself.

Verry well put!

Hello Matt. Nice video! You have two points more: The not edged aspect of some weapons justify totally this icepick grip too. And, simply, the side of the body you carry your weapon. On right side you'll be quick to declad with this grip.

The reason i stopped watching lindys channel is because, after you watch a few of his videos it becomes obvious that some times he is going on about things he knows only a little of. I see it all the time in reenactment where people talk like their an expert with out reading up properly on the topic and simple going on what they have been told. At least with matt, he really seems to have done his home work first plus through hema tested what he has read.

Hi! I'm far from a knife-dagger professional, but I agree with you at most. However I think the point up grip is better (at least in some ways) in defense, because of: -reach! and keeping the attacker at bay (if you don't want to grapple because of weight and strength, for example) -deflect an another blade with steel seems to be a better idea than with the forearm -crossguard (Marozzo and the latters tend to use "parrying daggers") Add to these, it enables more using of the edge. Besides, the whole thing is very context-dependent, as you say, like clothing. I also agree that every system contains both type of grips and techniques related each of them, but the emphasis shifts here-and-there in different times according to context.

Really interesting video, thanks.

Great video man!! I appreciate much the fact that you don´t speak in absolutes and encourage the viewer to think and consider the many different scenarios, advantages and disadvantages (Also nice to see images from Flos duellatorum there). I only have two comments, no criticism at all, just comments: I don't agree that you can only "hook" with icepick grip, I believe that's also possible with the "sword" grip. Not point forward, ok, but yes let's say with a "hammer" grip. Then something that's not mentioned, although maybe not soo critical: I believe that you have a little less total reach with icepick grip than with forward grip, especially with a long dagger such as the nice basilard from the video (A totally irrelevant difference however with a short dagger). Finally: Great videos!!! I really enjoy your work, please keep up sharing them. Thanks!

THANK YOU I love LindyBeige's videos and work, but that video you're responding to was the first of his I ended up actually disliking. Putting it right was a relief to watch, can't have someone be wrong on the internet!

Matt, I enjoyed this one and agree with all of your points raised. Although context is hugely relevant, FMA illustrate quite well that in the lightly clothed modern world the main advantage of point up or sabre grip with knives and daggers is greater reach. A simple drill with two opponents standing at arms length with one holding a knife point down and the other point up, will quickly prove that with some ease the latter can offend with potentially fatal strikes whilst remaining out of range.

Since you mentioned Fairbairn-Sykes knife fighting, do you mind doing a video on a couple of defendu techniques?

Apart from its efficacy in medieval close quarters combat, the icepick grip was also extensively employed in the knife fighting techniques taught by Michael D. Echanis and illustrated in his several books, cf. Knife Fighting, Knife Throwing for Combat (Special Forces/Ranger-Udt/Seal Hand-To-Hand Combat/Special W). Scholagladiatoria mentions the Fairbairn-Sykes fighting knife usually associated with 20th century close quarters knife combat, and often associated with a forward grip, but I didn't hear him mention Echanis.

Excellent!

very good video. Makes sense. Thanks.

Nice point about stress. It would indeed make sense to teach defenses against that.

You make Good videos. You talk & explain very well. Plus you made it fun to watch and learn some history too... Like✔

Nice video. Very informative.

Could the lack of reach of the point down compared to point up grip actually be an advantage? I recently got my hands on a fairly long repro dagger from Tod, and unlike previous ones I had I found it's longer blade really means that if I was a person in the middle ages grappling with someone I would need more space to get the dagger into them cause the blade is longer. Blades varied in length but I've seen a lot of long ones, almost forearm length, 9-12 inches say, wouldn't it stand to reason that the point down would be more useful up close precisely due to its being more retracted having less reach?

very logical, thankyou. do you do mma or any fullcontact unarmoured combat ? if so will you ever do a video on anything like that ?

Hm, from what I see here, the best knife for ice-pick grip (or sabre too, perhaps) would have a D-guard on it. Any disadvantages of having such protection on your knife?

imho using "reverse" or "forhand" grip is determinated dominantly with knife or dagger, especially with its lenght and weight and also with type and shape of blade. heavy longer weapons are better for cutting and bloking, using more power etc. but it is many more visible, usually slower and in general better to block it. shorter and light knives or daggers are not suitable too much for cutting, blocking. thrust is almost impossible (with exception of neck or similar areas)! but: they are very fast, easy to hide (mean in motion), you can use it in some "fury" offensive style which is almost unstoppable and very hard to defend and their main goal is to slice (soft body parts). i also think that is possible to pary with forhand grip (and short blade) but a little bit differently than with reverse grip. maybe it needs more practise but it would be even better than with long blades, downside is that is very limited with one's free handed fighting abilities...

Good points on the reverse grip/ice pick grip. In rondel sparring I use both grips and switch between them during the fight. The "sword grip" giving better reach can make it easier to target the hands, and also for defensive two handed grip (gripping the blade point). But this is mostly dagger on dagger action.

Great information, I agree with your points

Question:When holding a knife sharpened on a single side in a pointed down position should the blade be facing on the inside (like if you hold your fist forward, knife pointing down in a tooth pick position should the sharpened blade be facing you or the enemy?)

Reverse grip = shorter reach, slower execution, low accuracy, single burst damage Normal grip = longer reach, faster execution, high accuracy, high rate multi attacks

Great video, Matt. Back when I watched Loyd's video I actually thought of penetration power and stabbing into the opponents. I didn't think of the use of the icepick-grip in grappling, though. Very interessting.

Excellent points

Matt, I have a question about parrying daggers. They are used point up, but would it be better to use it point down? Especially if point down offers a better defense.

while gripping the dagger point down throwing a slightly offtarget straight punch to the throat results in a powerful cut against said throat, i also think that using the point down grip one can use much more unarmed techniques than while using the point up one.

As you said, context is everything. For example, I found a very interesting book lately: "Put ‘Em Down. Take ‘Em Out!: Knife Fighting Techniques From Folsom Prison" and their technics are completely different.

I was in agreement with Lloyd before but I've learned a lot from this. "Ice pick" grip didn't really make much sense to me but I've had pretty limited experience with offhand dagger and armour hasn't been taken in to account with sparring.

It looks like trying to block an attack with the point-up grip would be just as likely to deflect a blow towards the defender as away from him. I also found it interesting that you mention the point-up grip being used to "shiv" people in prison movies, but the one that comes to mind is in the movie "Out of Sight" where Don Cheadle stabs another inmate to death and in that scene the weapon is used with the "ice pick" grip. The stabbing scene also shows an advantage for the "ice pick" grip: He can stab the stab the victim several times very quickly and forcefully.

I like to think of Lloyd as knowing a lot more about history in general (e.g., he has really good videos on torches and things like that), and Matt as being way more specialized in medieval (and of course 18th 19th century) armaments. Both viewpoints are valuable, and both make really good videos and it's great that discourse can be had. I'm still waiting for that google hangout

Another fabulous video, Matt. I thought Lloyd was a bit odd in his original bit since there was no solid context for his opinions, and he was a touch...frantic? I am not sure if that's the word I wish to use but it is what comes to mind. Everything I thought about to counter his opinion was well captured in your response, of course, especially positioning the blade along the arm and the ability to hook with a downward pointing grip. Martial arts isn't a game of taking turns hitting one another until someone gives up, as we know. My only problem now is that I really would like a baselard. That is a very nice piece. Thanks for the effort you put in to these videos. The research and logic captured in what you do is appreciated!

have there been any historical finds of double bladed daggers with blades going both ways from the handle?

Another point that came to me : point down gripping might make a better drawing solution at close range. Let me explain : you draw your dagger point down and cut in the same movement, it's more difficult to achieve with point up, you've got to turn your hand move a bit, make a "swing" (don't know how to explain). Also defending against an attack at close range from the backmight be easier, you just have to draw and hit and your back side (you might also do it point up but then you're striking on your opposite side, with less reach). Don't know if this is clear, it's not easy to explain

I've been waiting for this response.

Another very good video Matt. I would be very interested in a video or more about Bowie knife fighting and also knife defense in general. It sort links into this video and is something I do some training in, so would be great to hear you views etc. Cheers.

I just realized - i'm curious about swords being used point down... are there techniques like that? i think skallagrim has a video about that, but it's more like "does it make sense to me?", not whether it was used in past.

is the defense portion with an ice pick grip change if the blade shorter? say 15 cm

Any chance we might hear your commentary regarding the recent Lars Anderson archery video? A couple of your countrymen, Mike Loades and Antony Cummins, have responded with quite different angles. Like yourself, they specialize in presenting historical martial arts to those of us that aren't nearly as well versed in the context of these topics.

I do appreciate your interest in Bowie, tomahawk and evaluating close melee applications

I found this video really fascinating, maybe because knives still exists and swords don't, the context of what you said was immediately relatable, as opposed to discussions about sword fighting, though they are also more that a little excellent. Good stuff Matt! I think a lot of what Lindybeige said in the video, he had to say, because, while he was discussing the merits of the sword grip over the icepick, he was also reciting a poem that had to rhyme, which greatly limits the amount of nuance you can apply to a topic.

The icepick grip seems plausible. I think the main factor would be: where people wore the dagger on their person when strolling about. Nowadays, people (police) wear their pistol beside their main hand. This allows quicker draw. If daggers were worn likewise, then daggers were drawn using an icepick grip. Knife fighting implies attempted murder - not open battle or a prearranged duel. So the dagger must remain sheathed until the last possible moment. Both the lightning draw, and the strike, must occur within a single rehearsed motion. Ideally, the victim wouldn't know what hit them, before bleeding out in the street. There is no time to reverse grip in the split second between drawing and striking. The grip starts in the icepick position and doesn't change. If the first strike misses, followup strikes must be delivered in an explosive flurry - using the same grip. The intended victim - if he survives long enough to draw his own dagger - has no time to switch grip either. By contrast, a concealed dagger would be drawn cross-body, using a sword grip. A shift from open carry to concealed, could explain the historic shift from icepick grip to sword grip.

Do you not think the point down grip was more natural due to knives being worn on the right, as opposed to the sword and therefore the straight 'lift and into action' would be more common?

I've been wondering about this for a while, when using a knife or a dagger, is there any validity to using slashes or cuts (other than push/pull cuts) as opposed to stabs or should those generally be reserved for longer weapons? Also if so, can you effectively slash with an ice pick grip? The motion seems possible but I don't know if it would have any power. Thanks.

Very powerful points

As soon as I saw LLoyd's video, I knew this was coming. (I also knew I would hear the word "equally" frequently.) It was a pleasure watching both. A point in favor of Lindy's argument. I think for most of us with marginal skills and little or no practice/training, the point up motions are far more natural. It takes a lot of practice to be able to do a quick and accurate upward thrust from the ice pick grip in the way Mr. Easton shows here. Is it a good strike / defend combo? Yes. Could most of us do it so fluidly? No. Whereas most of us could give ourselves enough range to stave off an empty handed or knife wielding attacker point up with simple thrust and slash motions - so long as the attacker was not suicidal, or indifferent to injury. Further, most knives we are likely to have about our person now, are more like 2-4" in the blades and single edged. This can be used for the hooking motion, without probable cuts, but severely limits reach. Also it more or less precludes the type of blocks Matt showed without extreme risk that the blow will either miss the blade, or slide off it into the forearm. I like discussions here. I've been corrected when I mispoke in the past with articulate and intelligent responses. I also have worked in a prosecutor's office, and a jail. I have a degree in law and justice. So my work and interests have led me to see plenty of the results of stabbings. I can say the pattern prison shiv (from the Italian schiavona perhaps?) attack is not icepick style, but rather point up. The usual method is to hold the shiv point up, concealed in the palm and drop it fully into the hand while walking by or rushing up. The attacker approaches the victim from behind and left. The thrusts are with the arm held level, upward into the kidney and liver area below the left scapula from behind. This requires the victim to turn to the left and defend first with his non-dominant hand and elbow initially. The attacker is stabbing as fast as possible. Perhaps 20-30 blows with a very short spike in a 1 minute or less period. The goal is not so much to kill the guy outright as to puncture so many organs in that area that infection is guaranteed and surgery would require removing most of the intestines, at least one kidney and that the liver is irreparably damaged. I've seen photos of a few and read countless training and security packets on this stuff. Guards (who prefer not to be called guards) take this kind of thing seriously and produce lots of analysis for attacks to be able to spot one coming and stop it, and to treat them as effectively as possible.

I'm wondering if another advantage of the icepick grip is that it's harder to grab your carrying hand, and even hurt his hand or forearm if he does it.

Matt, you left out the 'Slash Attack" with the Ice Pick Grip--kinda punching in a Roundhouse Fashion while sweeping the Blade through a Broad Arc. All in all, I found youR presentation interesting. You mentioned Fairbairn. What do you think of John Styer's Knife Fighting Method? While his thrusts and cuts look good, he totally ignores defensive tactics. .....RVM45

If you want to learn knife/dagger fighting or self defense but also if you are just interested in the theory i would realy recomend learing about both grips and not focusing on the style or being biased. Knowing both and being able to switch can make a huge atvantage and gives you a far better picture of the whole subject.