More on the Medieval Rondel Dagger - Were disc pommels for pushing with the other hand and why were the blades certain lengths? todcutler.com/collections / scholagladiatoria / historicalfencing
Thank you very much for a video reply. I keep your opinions with the highest respect. The thing is, after many years of the practicing with rondel daggers I would really love to add a few details: 1) The back rondel: Yes, definitely it helps with pulling the dagger out of the scabard, but the main use I used (my training piece anyway) is to give an option for a shoulder strike with it. I'll try to explain: The grappling is way messier in sparing than in manuals (well, as anything is (duh)) The problem is commonly with the fact it is really hard to line up the blade it the right direction and to push it towards your opponent, when your arm is locked. At that situation, we have found, it is possible to still deliver a strike by pulling the opponent towards you and by falling on the back rondel with your shoulder. This action usually ends up with really strong annd secure strike, even when your both hands are locked. 2) Length: I do agree, that the length is connected to the length of you forearm. What we experienced however is, that for armed combat a blade shorter than your forearm is better. It means that during the grappling if you can stick there your elbow, you can deliver a trust with the blade. However I do agree that in civilian context (or when you expect to have unprotected elbows) a blade slightly longer than your forearm is preferable. Thank you very much for the video.
Mine arrived the other day and it's beautiful. So well made and I love it. I'm going to be hanging out in the seedy part of town hoping someone challenges me to a rondel fight.
I would go so far as to suggest that the ease of drawing is as much a secondary or tertiary benefit As pushing on the pommel. To my eyes the rondels look to be initially designed purely for weapons retention. Think if you're grappling, go for a thrust or stab but don't quite drive it home. A sesperate living opponent instinctively wrenches away from the threat. With your dagger wedged in the close gap between plates possibly made tighter by movement, whether or not some portion of it actually pierced the adversary, the motions of struggle, shifting angles, and moving plates might trap your blade. In such a scenario the rondels really serve their primary purpose, locking the dagger to your fist and facilitating the drawing it away from where it is trapped.
I agree--even in unarmored fighting, muscles can spasm around a penetrating blade and make extraction difficult. Add some slippery blood to the mix and holding on to your weapon becomes a pretty important design consideration.
I really like lindybeige's explanation for the disk pommel where you stab the dagger into a gap in the armor and then slam it deeply into the opponent (similar to the thing you mentioned but more in an armored combat context)
But would you ever have the time and freedom against a concious and able bodied opponent (as opposed to one with broken limbs or punctured lungs, etc; injuries that might prevent them struggling) to have neither hand controlling them, set the blade against his body and use the other hand to smack it in, like a hammer and chisel? Even if he simply writhes around or swipes at your hand/dagger with one of his hands, the blade would no longer be at the (roughly) 90 degree angle you want it at to pierce whatever surface you are holding it against.
Dan RU-vid at the time you slam the dagger in it should already stick in the opponent or his armor somehow. And I think if you are already down to your dagger when fighting a fully armored opponent you better find the time to stick that blade into him properly. (And in addition to that this technique could also be used for a quick coup de grace on an opponent on the ground, just like you described him)
Slapping the pommel with the free hand isn't probably super effective. I doubt that would pierce mail. A mallet would be good... I think it's for putting all your weight on, when the opponent is on the ground.
Thanks Matt. Fantastic video again. I was very interested in the other dagger you mentioned the Bassalard (?). Any more on that one day would be great. Keep up the great work.
Any feature that aids the deployment of a weapon is extremely important. In fact, for a backup weapon, you could argue that how quick it is to deploy is *more* important than how effective it is when deployed. You can draw an analogy with tank combat, where getting the first shot on target is the dominant factor when deciding who wins an engagement.
One more thing: try to stab something hard with a minimalistic crossguard and you'll wish you had a dish... (poor pinky) PS: I know someone that got stabbed with a butterfly knife and the attacker cut his entire hand because he slipped on impact.
edi yeah there are a lot of cases in modern knife crime (especially with kitchen knives) where the attacker cuts his hand because it slips, this was basically the first point Matt made in the previous video about rondel daggers
Ondřej Březina kitchen knives usually have quite some metal acting as a guard blocking the pinky from sliding onto the blade. Moreover, most kitchen knives have a really good grip. On the other side pocket knives lack often both features...
+PregnantWhale3000 yes, they are: they are cheap, available, have a decent grip, are usually very sharp and reasonably suited for thrusting. You can make yourself a sheath and carry one of them in a concealed fashion (smaller ones on the forearm or belt, larger ones under the jacket or jumper). +Scrub Scribe: criminals do choose their weapons, but not necessarily according to what makes most sense practically. Terrorists did use them quite frequently, despite daggers and machetes would make even more sense in terms of combat. The reason is probably that they are easier to conceal and don't arouse as much attention, if they are already watched. BTW: they have a habit of attaching a wrapping to the grip. Most run of the mill criminals tend to carry pocket knives, due to weight and comfort. I've seen however quite a bunch of kids and adolescents with fixed blades (often called neck knives, but they are usually carried at the belt). The folders tend to be fancy, whereas the fixed blades are usually meant for business (shank and trash).
Might you do a video explaining the pros/cons/context of rondel daggers with/without sharpened edges? To my understanding, some are essentially just spikes with handles. It'd be interesting to hear more about that evolution and variation.
One other possible use of the back rondel: after thrusting between plates or other kinds of armor, the blade will probably get stuck (for example, when the enemy tries to protect the gap, closing the plates over the blade, or twisting it). The back rondel can then assist in doing force backwards, to remove the dagger. What do you think Matt?
The rondels might also have a defensive purpose. If you take a gauntlet from Fiore era and grab your dagger the rondels close any gaps left by the gauntlet.
What I've seen suggested is that it is to enable you to push with the second hand not only to overpower a block, but also to enable to use more of your bodyweight to push through chainmal or eyeslits when an enemy is allready down. Stabbing an enemy with force into his armpit or neck might be tricky and sliding the dagger into position and pushing on it with your bodyweight might be easier.
Im thinking also, that the disc pommel can be used as an impact weapon. Used with a 'hammer blow' technique. More of a supporting or super close quarters strike...
I've heard that misericordes (which are really a more specialized type of rondell dagger) were sometimes used against grappled armored opponents, by hitting the blunt end of the dagger with a stone. Perhaps the pommel shape in rondell dagger assists in that type of maneuvers.
As a martial artist with grappling experience, I posit that the disk pommel is meant to be used when grappling in armor. People talk about rondel daggers being used to penetrate mail, but go ahead and try it without a massive overhand stab against a supported piece of mail. Good luck. If you are grappling and go to the ground, your sword and pollaxe are near useless, and if trying to simply push your dagger through mail, you will fail. On the other hand, if you gain the top position, place the point of the dagger against mail or a joint in plate, place your chest against the pommel and put your weight onto it, your armored weight will push the point through the mail and the large flat pommel will not injure you or damage your armor. Again, I want to reiterate that a normal (even a strong) man will fail at trying to PUSH a dagger through mail, but laying on the pommel with the point down will provide enough force to push it through.
I love daggers in general! I own a beautiful copy of a late 15th century ballock dagger forged by Tod. It's actually almost a sort of ballock-rondel hybrid, if you can believe such! Its cross section is hollow-ground triangular, so it has no cutting capability whatsoever. It's just a glorified shank... and I love it! 😃 It's obviously a military weapon.
I would really like to see your take on over-sized replicas. I do a landsknecht portrayal and most Katzbalgers on the market are ridiculously long when compared to what i often see in woodcuts, where the sword length seems closer to the width of the hips. I see a similar issue with some gladii. Cheers!
I for one would love to see a video showing two people explaining movements. Sometimes the static pictures leave me with, "how'd he get there and how does he get out?"
i think the large round pommel served all the purposes you discussed. i do think you may be overlooking the importance of a large surface area for a second hand to push and break through chain mail or something similar. think about other techniques at the time such as the 2 handed half sword thrust. busting through tough armor such as plate or mail was a high priority for the time period. and its not just a second hand. with a large surface area like that you could use a knee, elbow, or other part of your body to help punch through after initial contact was made
How likely do you think the back rondel of the dagger might have to do with extraction of the dagger from the target? I do not know but I imagine that stabbing through mail, thick clothing, gambeson or slits in armour could lead to the dagger potentially getting stuck and the extra grip the back rondel provides something to put more power into to pull out.
Cool vid! Stuff like this is just further evidence to me that ppl have been using bladed weapons or more specifically knives and daggers in combat/self defense for a long time. Kind of makes all those people look silly who post videos on youtube saying that using a blade in a knife fight is an impossible endeavor and that you're only option to survive is to run... Well, I'm 51 and about 230 lbs, so for me, I chose to stand and fight rather than giving an enemy my back ;)
Question about rondels and cutting. I do both FMA and WMA, and in FMA attacking the hand or arm of the attacker (AKA defanging the snake) is a huge basis of their knife fighting. In WMA, only one source that I can find, Paulus Kal, shows attacking the arm with what is labeled a slice. Any thoughts on this or if this was just something so common to do they left it out of the treatise?
The pommel is so shaped for a very good reason. Wet, and cogealing blood is as slippery as heavy oil. Ask any combat veteran. Thrusting it in requires a grip that doesn't slip, and, similarly, you need the pommel to pull the blade out of armor or bone.
Do you think some of the rondelles that have square spike blades are shorter because they were longer originally,at some point part of the blade snapped off & were reshaped?
6 лет назад
Does this ronder dagger have round handle (circle cross-section), or is it actually oval? Does edge alignment matter for daggers?
It would certainly matter if it was used for slashing, but as was stated in this or the previous video, the rondel dagger is almost exclusively intended for stabbing - often through armour. When stabbing, edge alignment would matter a lot less. It still matters a bit, but nowhere near as much as when trying to cut with a sword. As to whether the handle is perfectly round, I have no idea. It does look round.
Very interesting. Instinctively I thought I might be more comfortable with a 8-10" blade because I am a stocky Mediterranean 5' 8". I measured my forearm after the video and lo and behold: 10.5" from elbow to wrist. Edit: I have no HEMA training, just noting an instinct that may be common.
How will you and your students deal with the new knife laws in England and Wales? Can you get permits or are there special transport procedures that make it not count as being armed.
6 лет назад
Quite a few of the rondeldaggers in Sweden are atleast quite short compared to this one. I.e between 25-30cm total length. But i agree completely on the size issue in the treatises abd have commented on this before
The groin and the eyes were probably the only parts not concealed by any sort of armour whatsoever, even the armpits, throats and the elbows were covered by acheton, mail or both, so those two parts were probably the most easily accessed weak points that would nigh instantly kill or at least debilitate.🤔🤔🤔 That being said, ouch...😅😅😅
"Getting the weapon out can be the difference between life and death." I really like katanas for that reason, they're very quick to go from walking around minding your own business to ready to fight or delivering a powerful cut. As you talk about this weapons you should "play" with them. Just do simple attacks or block and switching hands or grips or various garde positions etc. It shows not just the object but how it's supposed to move and be used. Certain qualitative details really simply need to be perceived.
I'm guessing the answer is no, but I can't help but wonder if the rondel dagger is related to the Scottish dirk. Superficially, they look similar, modulo the rondels and the thickness of the blade, and I'd be interested to know if the dirk is a continuation of the daggers used in the era of fighting in plate armour.
Do you know of any historical treatise that deal with the us of baselard, bollock dagger or a quillion daggers? It seems more common to see rondel daggers.
While it would certainly help, I personally kind of doubt it. The grip itself should offer enough purchase to maintain a hold on the dagger, hence the pretty spirals. What seems, again, just to me, more plausible is that the pommel allowed the user to, well, pommel on it with the off-hand, thus forcing the blade through the gaps in armor it was already placed aganst with the main hand, possibly bursting maille rings along the way. Hammering on the pommel, instead of just pushing on it, would deliver a greater impulse and possibly disrupt the opponent's defense if he/she were trying to block. Again, no practical experience to back this up, just a thought.
I think that the second hand on the rondel to push is poor tactics in a real fight. On one hand (badum tish) you could in theory use Pui Fortezza if the opponent blocks your stab to overpower them and try to get your point into play but my personal research has come up with a much better technique. I instead engage them in witty banter about the reasons for the fight and threaten their loved ones while straining against their weapon with one hand, my other hand dangling uselessly as if I've forgotten about it's existence. Then after we have had a brief discussion I push slightly harder and we both spring apart about 10 feet to continue the duel.
I bet the disc pommel was designed explicitly for when the opponent was on the ground, to put all your weight on it to drive it through mail. I bet that disc wasn't used much when standing up.
I recall reading in historical fiction of these daggers being used with mallets. Is that historically accurate and could that be why having a rondel on the end would be beneficial too? Thanks for all the great videos.
Ok, I'm gonna show my "old and cranky" side and admit it irritates me that Matt even has to make some of these follow up videos. Sometimes they are to clarify legitimate points that need further explanations (and that's great), but more often they are to reiterate points he made in the original video and people DIDN'T PAY ATTENTION. There, I'm done with my rant.
What's particularly funny is when there's a follow up video and then someone asks a question in the comments for it, except that was a point already addressed in the original!
Piu forteza refers to covering with two hands not using two hands for thrusting. The drawing you showed from Fior di battaglia is depicting a counter against a lock, not piu forteza. Here is the actual piu forteza play (from the Pisani-Dossi version): wiktenauer.com/images/c/c8/Pisani-Dossi_MS_07a-a.png
I can't wait till you sharpen it , maybe instead of testing it on bottles , possibly test it on tatami or hang up a turkey or chicken for the store. Use something a little more representative of flesh. It would be a good test.
Muiggu I own chicken ducks at my house and have had to kill a few due to disease or after they stopped laying eggs we ate them , they are by no means as tough as a pig , but they are still pretty tough most tougher then a bottle .
get sharper knives then. Btw I don't go stabbing every animal I come across it's just that I like archery and like to see if my "authentic medieval" arrowheads are good for anything, so before the Yule pig goes in the oven he has to go through a 2nd slaugter
It makes sense, with how armor works and that kind of stuff. I am not judging. But I was surprised to see the tactic of stabbing someone in the dick with a dagger.
