Mhysa Is A Master: Daenerys Targaryen Was Always The Villain Hiding In Plain Sight 

Exactly. Barristan even straight confronts her about it and says he wouldn’t have followed Viserys because he was mad

So like Cersei

@@wolfsbanealphas617 no she’s far far worse than Cersi, Dany has dragons and has proven to be far more destructive and dangerous then Cersi could ever be.

​@@triciacarey2288Cersei tortures people for fun, she rapes Taena, for fun, she only gives a shit about herself, while dany literally stays in Meereen seeing the mess she has created and wants to simply make it good again.

The (arguably small) difference is that the Baratheons swore fealty to the Targaryens.

As well as that they United Westeros and plenty of houses swore loyalty even without a fight. That’s no fcking argument.

@@lostvarius An oath of fealty goes both ways and the Targaryens broke it when they ran off with Robert's betrothed (in the eyes of Westeros), murdered Nedd's father and brother and demanded the deaths of both Ned and Robert.

@@DominionSorcerer Of course, still it's different from Aegon's conquest

Yes but also no, you could argue that the kingdom of Westeros only exists BECAUSE Agon unified it. The crown was theirs because they created it. Therefore, when someone takes it by force that someone is usurping the throne. Not saying that I fully agree with this, just that this is the reasoning behind a shitton of wars, both fictional and historical.

Yes this is definitely a huge plot point that people seem to gloss over. Again, I get that GoT presented it differently, but Dany's attitude towards the Unsullied is very pragmatic in the books, i.e. she knows she doesn't have the money to buy them, she knows Westeros won't appreciate a slave army, and she knows that as long as they can be bought and sold, someone could buy them to use against her. Ergo, her decision to "free" them is largely driven by that. That's actually another aspect of the whole Mirri Maz Duur event that bothers me as well. She "frees her slaves" when they're in the middle of nowhere, surrounded by roving pillagers, and they have absolutely nothing in order to survive. And coincidentally that becomes a running theme with Dany, she "frees the slaves" except the circumstances that she creates or puts them in essentially necessitates that they follow her because if they don't then they'll probably die.

@@HillsAliveYT You can also see this in people wanting to sell themselves back into slavery at all, that tells you the circumstances she created by freeing them were not tenable for so many freemen to be there. If she created the correct socioeconomic circumstances that shouldn't be necessary. That's a tall order, but it clearly wasn't done and is a perpetual problem with her 'freeing' slaves.

Totes, and I think that her willingness to let the slaves sell themselves kinda demonstrates that her liberation arc is a false one, as once the serious problems with Dany's lack of planning present themselves, she doesn't actually do anything to fix them.

When Dany frees Missandei she tells her if there was a place she wanted to go she would be free to and offered her a ship.

@@whitediamond133 I don't remember that. Which book was that in?

Totally, I understand GoT's decision to age up the characters but I think that their real ages makes things actually more comprehensible and more terrifying at the same time.

@@HillsAliveYT Want to know what your opinion is about Sansa feeding a surrendered prisoner alive to his dog and killing an unarmed Lord without any fair trial. Was that choosing violence or just peace? What about Arya feeding sons to their father and exstinguising entire generations of family line without a chace for them to surrender (which at least Dany offered everyone you named, from Mirri to Tarleys).

@@harish123az Um both of those things are insane and horrific, obviously?

@@HillsAliveYT but then from a phycological point of view, when your father's head was cut off Infront of you. You were abused by joffrey and an old man man (little finger) was grooming you to be his wife, and Ramsay r@ped her and this happened while she was only a young girl as in a Teen. By the time Ramsey surrendered Sansa was already emotionally messed up. What Ramsay did to Sansa was NOT acceptable R@pe is not acceptable in any shape or form. He deserved to be eaten by his dogs

@@HillsAliveYT also I feel like In GoT they removed some lines and the actor for mirri made it seem a little more open to her doing everything on purpose especially with the black magic scene she gives a kind of smirk

When I read that passage I think of it as a prophecy. That Dany will have a living child. and the destruction of the world will be a result of it. But I do agree that Dany took her words as a cruel curse, part of the reason she executed her

Dany always knew she meant never though? And dany, albeit ignorantly, tried to save her. Dany didn’t give the order to raid the town, kill innocents and r*pe women. She did the best she could in a position where she had little power compared to the khal and his men.

You were correct...those things will never happen so she was clearly mocking the young woman who tried to save her. Danny was quite innocently standing against an entire tribe of Raiders and Thugs in order to stop the rape and pillage. This witch admitted that she hated Drogo from the start and was glad that he died. When poor Danny exclaimed " but I saved you from the Raiders " the witch explained" you didn't save me little girl...I had already been raped " She purposely provoked her master challenging her to kill her. She chose death 💀....However Danny did show in this and many future slayings a cruel Targaryen heart and a lack of remorse which I not only observed but pointed out to my friends and family members all of whom loved and backed her throughout the series.

@@bigalsnow8199 what is she supposed to be remorseful about? Was Jon remorseful for executing a man who disobeyed his order at the wall? Dany was misguided in thinking she saved her but she’s not malicious. She executed her for killing her husband and her unborn child. I don’t see how she’s supposed to feel remorseful for doing so.

Daenerys already believes that she will never bear a living child, she knew Mirri was just pulling her leg to be cruel to her. She says many times on page that she will never have a living child and that upsets her.

It's far less surprising when you realize she hasn't gone mad. She has simply stopped pretending that she isn't evil.

@@SerbAtheist True. It just changed the point of view. Because we always get caught up in Danny's perspective, on her narrative. But when she burns the city down we see it throug the eyes of Jon and The people of Kingslanding.

@@SerbAtheist I still don't believe Dany was always evil. Yes she has had violent tendencies throughout, but there was a massive leap from anything else she ever did to intentionally targeting and slaughtering civilians with no purpose.

@@anatoldenevers237 she did everything with no purpose, she walked into a situation and walked out smelling like roses, it finally caught up to her.

Yeah the issue isn’t that she shouldn’t end up there, more so that the specifics of the situation don’t make sense, Danny very much fancies herself breaker of chains and protector of innocents, even if its delusion she’d not easily give up any semblance of that image because she does truly believe it. Her most violent acts are always targeted if not at just an individual at least at a specific group. When she attacks the slavers she doesn’t go in dragons blazing even though she could, its just the flipping on a dime despite the fact that none of whats happening to her is anything new to her

That could be interpreted in many ways, not necessarily that her motherly love was a disguise. Remember her dragons were incredibly valuable, and people from all over are trying to get them, wouldn't it make sense for her to want them to grow as big as possible so they can defend themselves as much as possible?

My first red flag was when she was watching viserys die

​@@haokun12 same lol and the second was killing Miri.

​@@haokun12This is not a red flag, this is one of the most human reactions ever. Why should she feel anything sad in that moment when he just threatened to kill her child, before that repeatefly harrassed her verbally, physically sexually ever since she was a small child? Even later in the books, after Viserys' death she does feel sad about his death and is deeply conflicted. This is what happens with victims of abuse all the time. They remember the very few good moments with their abuser, feel sad for some time about not being with them anymore. Dany however does know deep down how viscious Viserys was to her and avoids letting herself succumb to grief.

​@@haokun12me too

Read the fucking books.

But they believed they were kings by birthright, just like our contemporary counterparts. That is what a monarchy is. I don’t like it or believe in it but I don’t live in Westeros. I am pretty sure that if my father was a King and I was the only child, I would believe myself to be the heir. If on top of that I bring back dragons, that would give me some freaking confidence.

@@berilsevvalbekret772 this reading is perfectly in line with the books

but the iron WAS her birth right tho! Her father was king and there are no other relatives. So she is the only living child of the official king. Can't she just state what is true then? Espescially in such an important matter?? Renly, Stannis,Joffrey, Cersei, Margery.... all wanted to be king/queen while they weren't actually born for it. Only dany is held up to such a high moral state that every little thing that doesn't include her doing something for OTHERS, is considered selfish/evil/wrong

@@Anthony_Gx Stannis is the rightfully king if you want to get technical. Robert deposed the Targaryen’s by right of conquest and Baratheons became the legal heirs to the throne (besides the fact they have Targaryen blood through their mother and the Baratheons started as Targaryen bastards). Aegon conquered the kingdoms through right of conquest and Aerys lost it by the same manner. The Targaryen expceptionislim and their view of themselves as gods amoung men make them dangerous rulers, Daenerys included.

Exactly what I've been saying for years. Tamzin Merchant would be a much better Dany as she still looked like a thin reckless youth compared to mature and tender Emilia Clarke.

Long live the queen danaerys dracarys

​@@AncientChiYou still simpin?

​@@pushista9322Next you will try justifying Joffrey. Grow up.

Yeah I did get that, it came across in the first book in the scene anyway that Dany had figured out how to hatch the dragons through the blood magic she experienced from Drogo and her son. In the book it seemed like she was sacrificing her both for revenge and because she knew the blood of a maegi would be useful for blood magic. Taking life to give life

I can’t help but think that GRRM is going to go that route. But. You know in two more books. 👀

@@UmamiNoodle Sure, but he has also written her to be less of a good person. She kills lots of people, or commands others to do it, and not just "bad people". Many of those instances were changed in the show.

I never read the books but only watched a bunch of youtubevideos about the topic, and feel comfortable saying that the writers of the show just don't relate to women at all, there was no woman in the writing room, in this last season where all female empowerment was rooted in petty catfights between women. I don't necessarily think quota will fix everything and a woman in the writing room would have made all the difference, because GRRM seems to do just fine with his writing regarding nuanced female characters. The showrunnees just really overestimated their abilities in finishing the story of this woman that they barely understood. It makes perfect sense that Dany, a woman that was raised as a slave, suddenly gaining power, would slowly go down the road of becoming the dogmatic ruler she dispises. Like, I think the goal is, that history rhymes and that she was starting to express herself in similar entitled ways as her brother Viserys did. The showrunners really made hee character just "snap" into this violent and destructive dictator and struggle to explain why that would happen. These guys just give off this vibe of men, that don't understand women and think they are emotional creatures that snap at them for no particular reason, they could not fathom that a woman would turn violent for any internal logical reason.

@@corneliahanimann2173 @Cornelia Hanimann while i definitely agree that the show screams Men Wrote This, i disagree with the notion that the women were reduced to petty catfights in the final season. calling women character's issues with each other petty ignores the legitimate problems they have with each other. women are allowed to dislike each other or be at odds, eg sansa disliking dany.

I disagree that the show portrayed Daenerys as a good guy up until she "snapped". Again and again her instincts were "It is my throne and I will take it with fire and blood". Her advisors tempered those instincts - Ser Barristan, Ser Jorah, Tyrion and Varys appealed to her better angels, her empathy; they counseled that justice didn't have to mean killing. But we the audience were manipulated by the show to see her as a heroic character transforming from meek victim into powerful benefactor; the framing shots of her receiving the adoration of formerly enslaved people, the swelling grandiosity of the music, and our own inherent love of a "little guy makes it big-time" story, conspired to make us overlook her attitude of entitlement, to interpret her in the best possible light (when she said she was going to break the wheel, didn't we want to think she meant the tyranny of absolute rulers, maybe the beginning of rule by council or elected officials representing the smallfolk? But she really meant the cycle of one House ruling then another, a permanent Targaryen rule!). We fell for it because we wanted to, but if you rewatch the series, you'll see that entitled, bloodthirsty, power-abusing Daenerys the Mad Queen was there all along, growing as her power grew, and finally unleashed when she ceased listening to the calming influence of advisors and felt that she had no one but herself.

True even Viserys and Rheanyra recognizes in HOT that without dragons they are ordinary

how in the world crucifying bastards who crucified 163 children is a villan move? I think she was overly merciful to be honest. You people bend over backwards to agree with the gal without understanding the books , the kind of world ASOIAF is , Danny's own experiences etc. read the fucking books again you certainly didn't understand anything that isn't surface level.

It sure is a different thing, looking at things from the perpective of the books versus GoT. The show clearly frames Mirri's actions as intentional, as you mentioned, unlike the books. It's a bit confusing to watch this video, as it's not clear if it's talking about the books or the books and the show. Especially for a viewer like me who read the books years ago and doesn't remember anything...

Honestly, Dany killing Mirri never felt righteous to me. I sympathized with Dany (she just lost her son and her husband; the Khalasar left, her whole life seem to be in dust), but I never thought what she did was right. After all, even if Mirri was 100% guilty (which is debatable), she was just living her own life until the Dothraki came, destroyed her village, killed/raped/enslaved her people, raped and enslaved her - and all that just to get money for Dany's war overseas, which had absolutely nothing to do with Mirri or her village. It's not just that Mirri gets justice the only way she can; from her perspective, she's also actively stopping Drogo (and Dany) from killing more people. And Dany doesn't just kill her - she burns her alive for it.

In the show it never appeared as Mirri poisoned Drogo. People just know that a dirty blade wound can lead to an infection. But the show does imply that she made Drogo mindless on purpose

Well I mean those slave masters did kill many children. She didnt pick them at random.

And most of the time we were only supposed to hate them because Danny hated them. Not because they were worthy of hate

I mean she got mad pissed at slavers torturing and raping the children not sure why we're not supposed to hate them. Her narrative is that she comes from a place of deranged privilege but was also a slave so she can relate to them.

@@mrbubbles6468 slave masters are worthy of hate

Exactly

But all of the major characters did the same. The world wasn't as simple as pure good and pure evil until they ran out of book material.

Daeny doesn't have good intentions though

@@maesterchris2120 Yes she does. She wants the throne, but she also does genuinely care about people. I though that was pretty clear when we read her POV.

@@anatoldenevers237 Does she truly? Her ultimate goal is to conquer Westeros simply because in her eyes, the entire continent is her property. There is no slavery in Westeros, she won't be freeing anybody. She's not better suited to rule it, either -- she doesn't know anything about that land or its people. And she doesn't consider it her solemn, unwanted duty that she's somehow forced into; she only keeps repeating that Westeros is hers and belongs to her, like the country was a toy somebody took from her. And this -- not ending slavery or peaceful rule in Essos -- is her real, true aim all along, as she herself tells us. When it comes down to it, she's willing to raze peaceful tribes, sell slaves, and let hordes of murderous rapists and flying WMDs ravage a whole continent for no other reason than personal greed and entitlement. Dany cares about people when she's looking directly at them, but it doesn't really translate to any particular concern about the suffering she's causing and will cause on the grand scale. In this case, the road to hell is paved with very bad intentions, and the good intentions are essentially a window dressing.

dany deserved far worse than what she got. yes, she was young. so was joffrey.

Miri, the queen of suicidal malicious compliance.

This. The main reason for her decision to stay in the 3 cities is that she wants to learn how to rule and maintain peace in the places she takes over. Shes a child that was never taught how to rule or how to take care of her people. She was abused by Viserys her whole life and the life of the Dorthraki is brutal, their whole way of life is based on raping and pillaging, hell we are told that rulers of bigger cities just give them riches and slaves in exchange to not be attacked when they see them coming. And she still tries to dampen their brutality wielding the little power she has with Drogo at the time. Not to say Miri or her people need to have amazing gratitude to her or anything. But for us as viewers that know the bigger picture, her effort to at least make the slaves lives less brutal is such a big deal for the Dorthraki that it ends in Drogos duel and a death. She couldve just as easily just embraced the violence and Dorthraki ways as a way to gain power and her iron throne. In fact it would have been easier if the throne and power were her only goal and she had disregard for the people. But she constantly tries to do better and to change peoples lives for the better. Shes very young and dumb and inexperienced in many ways, but shes constantly shown she wants to do better. And I completely agree with your reading on Miri.

Saying Dany is young is just an excuse. We don't give that excuse for Joffery. Even though he is the same age if not a little younger then Dany. Sorry Dany is just a villain. A great one with depth but still a villain.

@@ladyofnoxus6733 but like- people do say that about Jeoffry tho? He's clearly a product of shit parenting from a mother who literally saw him as her but with a dick (and thus able to make political decisions) and a father who literally hated him. The commentary with Jeoffry, imo is not that some kids are just evil, but that feudalism lets literal children, who often have had an extremely weird and unstable relationship with empathy (as they are told that they are better than everyone just by being born) be in charge of an entire fucking country. And yeah, Jeoffry is an abusive POS. It's seen in Sansa's POVs that he clearly enjoys inflicting pain and suffering (I'm just not convinced that he would have turned out that way if he had a stable family). But if you read Danny's POV's and got the same vibe, I think that that's just blatant media illiteracy. If you want to read through ASOIAF thinking that there is a clear line between good and bad guys, and that if a person tallies up too many 'bad points' then they are a bad person and irredeemable, that's your choice I guess.

not even possible tbh mirri went out of her way to ENSURE they knew what they had to do for the spells to succeed. not her fault Dany and co. were rarded and broke every rule she gave them.

At what point was she an unequivocal hero? Even when she freed the slaves, she took extremist measures by crucifying the masters.

@@CharismaticDad in all fairness, while crucifixion is a brutal punishment, Slavery is a brutal practice. The show suffers from not having Danaerys’ inner monologue, But I feel like the show should have played more into her delusions of exceptionalism and how her acts make innocent people suffer too. And of course, Have more characters question her acts instead of bootlicking on her conquests. You see the problem? Danaerys’ worst act that the directors call attention towards (before season 7) is her execution of slave owners, Which is more morally grey than outright evil. So when she finally does have that mask off moment, it feels unearned

@@CharismaticDad not even that. She owned slaves, made money from nobles selling themselves into the slave trade, slapped Eroeh, had Mirri burned alive, had kids murdered and tortured. She has never been a hero except in her own mind. That's truly what makes her interesting.

Agreed Dany is a complex character, one who does good and bad when placed into a position of choice or power. I agree with "Power doesn't corrupt, it reveals", as it can show what one will really do with said power, not necessarily "change them". Dany is definitely a "Neutral" in every sense of the word, even if we do see her trying to be a kinder ruler

I watched the show before reading any of the books and I called her out as a villain by the time she freed the slaves. I think the show did a really good job of telegraphing it to be honest. I really don't understand how it came as such a surprise for most people. I'd been saying she was going to be the villain since season 3 or whenever slavers Bay was. The foreshadowing was there. She just broke things and acted out of rage. They were clearly building a parallel between her and the mad King. I'd argued with the group I watched the show with all the way up until the end. And they still acted as though it came out of nowhere, despite me literally having called it for like 4 seasons at that point. I actually don't know what they needed to do to make it more obvious without having her kick puppies or something.

I think thats part of it as well as the human heart in conflict with itself

Its the same as bran being king when you think about it it makes sense for him to be the king the rushed writing just went from a to z without any of the in between

George's writing has been more along the lines of "power reveals" not "power corrupts" else every ruler in ASOIAF would have went mad long ago and that's not the case.

@broski wavy She decided to destroy the city AFTER her soldiers had subdued the Lannister forces. The city had already surrendered, and she had already effectively won. All she had to do to accomplish her goal was kill Cersei. Everything else was completely unnecessary. She didn't make that decision for strategic purposes, she did it because she wanted to.

Well then why isn’t every character with power punished for having it? By that logic the Starks should have been destroyed for being aristocrats. Bran should have been killed for what he did to Hodor. Jon should have been killed for being Lord Commander. Those characters have real power and there’s not even that much difference in how they actually wield it. The Starks summarily execute people, they keep serfs, aren’t democratic, piss on the rule of law and even have the same hyperbolic titles like Grey Wolf and Kings of Winter. He doesn’t actually punish Dany for having power. He punishes her for overtly desiring it and being melodramatic. Instead of the Starks who stone faced get given first half the Kingdom and then the rest of it on a silver plate.

Yeah agreed, Dany’s notion of what “saving someone” is pretty far off target and I think that will play a big role in her Westeros expectations vs. reality.

@@HillsAliveYT It's a great thing that Dany learned her lesson from Mirri and chose to stop working within the system to help people and to topple the system directly instead. It's almost like her character is a child at the beginning of the books who is slowly learning how to become better through trial and error with the best intentions at heart.

@@princessshei9171 Except that ends up in failure at the end of Dance and she realizes that she is not meant for anything other than Fire and Blood.

@@angrashadow2958 LOL that's not true. By the end of A Dance with Dragons she realizes that the peace with the masters was unjust and not possible because she allowed them to retain too much power which directly affected her freedmen. She regressed into a scared little girl who refused to go to war or rule with the necessary heavy hand in Mereen which ended with the masters hollowing out her revolution, stepping all over her, and harming her freedmen. She learned more politics and took many measures for peace without the use of violence even though they were detrimental to herself. Her arc in ADWD is learning when to use soft power and when to use hard power, she is getting back in touch with who she was in ASOS with all of the lessons of Astapor, Yunkai, and Meereen on her mind. Sometimes violence is necessary to achieve peace, complacency only benefits the oppressors and Daenerys is done with that.

@@princessshei9171 she is 14 at the beginning of the books. So intellectually speaking and given that she was never instructed to be a leader, she is a child.

This is not true tho. Best example (and pretty much the only you need) is the scene when she is informed about King Jeoffrey dying, Westeros being destabilized and the Lanister at each other's throats. People want Daenerys to take her ships and go to westeros right then and there, yet she stays because she wants to solve the problems in Mereen and disband the sons of the harpy. It was not just means to an end, she was TRULY trying to do the right thing, and there is more than enough evidence that shows she really cares about her subjects and wanted to be a good ruler. She just didn't know how to (the revolts in yunkai and astapor after she left, she wanted to fix that as well, didn't know how).

And another thing that makes your assessment pretty unfair is the whole her risking ABSOLUTELY everything to help John Snow. She stood to gain nothing there. Nothing at all. She actually ended up losing a dragon pretty much immediately and still she was commited and decided to help. She could have very easily taken Kingslanding and destroyed her oponents before they even stood a chance, but once again she chose to do what was the right thing and lost a lot in the process

@@C_Clap I will concede that Daenerys did care about the people to an extent. Her desire for power was stronger than her desire to help others though. I think once she started to gain power, she was desperate to hold onto it. Her staying behind in Meereen was a tactical decision though. How could she expect anyone in Westeros to accept her as their ruler if she were to leave Meereen in chaos, a total failure as a ruler? If she can’t rule a smallish city effectively how on earth could she rule 7 kingdoms? And as for her “helping Jon”…do you not see that if she did not help Jon fight the army of the dead then they would just continue to grow and eventually be at her doorstep anyway? If she intended to rule Westeros, and she did, then the army of dead marching towards Westeros was pretty much her problem as well. So I’m not seeing your point there. Daenerys was not a wholly evil or wholly good person. She clearly fell in love with power and felt entitled to it. I’ve yet to see any Daenerys fan explain to me why she gave the people of Essos a choice to follow her but not the people of Westeros? When Missandei said to Jon that they chose her as their queen…I’m not sure why his response wasn’t “Well, Westeros didn’t.” Tell me why someone who was so opposed to slavery didn’t see how telling people to bend the knee or die was no better than what the slavers did?

@@gwenjackson8583 because the setting is completely different. Of course she is a grey character, everyone is, but her motivations are overall, good. She was told her whole life that the Targaryens are the right rulers of the iron throne, of course she felt entitled. And Essos and Westeros are just not the same. She gave the slaves a choice between following her or doing their own thing, same with the Dothraki. The only people in Essos that opposed her were the masters, and she dealt with them with a pretty firm hand, while also trying to be non violent about it (other than the crucifications obviously. Westeros is a whole different beast. In her mind, there is no other reality than her being the rightful queen abd everyone else being her subjects. Again, this is how she was taught the world works, just as all previous Targaryen generations did. And she did just as Aegon the conqueror did, give everyone a chance to bend the knee (we don't talk about the bells) or die. She can't let them just "go do their thing" as she did with the slaves, because for westerosi lords if they are not in Danny's side, they are against her. If she hadn't killed the Tarlies, they would have fought alongside Cercei. It would be politically moronic to risk your men and resources in a full blown battle when you can completely avoid ot by dealing with the lords commanding the enemy army. It's not about being good or evil, it is about being smart. And I don't think mereen was a tactical decision for her at all. She stood to lose way more than to gain by staying there. The tactical decision would be to put all the masters through the knife, stablish a loyal governmet, take all their riches and leave. That was the most tactically sound decision and she knew ot, but she was trying to be a good queen. As to the night king and John yes, she had to help obviously. She did NOT need to risk her life and dragons just to save Jon. She also had the opportunity to just conquer Kingslanding and deal with Cercei in probably less time than it took to find a wight, bring it there and have a peace talk. She had the army, she had the fleet (or not, i don't remember) and she had all three dragons. Kingslanding didn't stand a chance. But she CHOSE to wait for the slim chance of Cercei joining forces with her. Again, I'm not saying Daenerys is all light and good, she made a lot of dark and nasty choices, but that comes with the job description. A king must make this kind of decisions and live with them. And yes, Danny was seeking the throne for herself cause it was her birthright, but she was also truly trying to make the worl a better place and to improve the lives of her subjects (everything that happened after the bells tolled doesn't count cause that was just bs).

She's not a great Machiavellian though. Machiavellians are calculating and precise. Dany often let her emotions cloud her judgement. The Machiavellians were Varys and Tywin.

I'd disagree Mirri basically committed murder outright; she deserved to die. End of story.

@@JediLordNathan I disagree, but let's say for a minute you are absolutely right and she deserved death. NO ONE deserves to be burned alive. That is torture, it's inhumane, and it's wrong. Mirri's execution can't be righteous because the method is beyond fucked up, and that method is chosen purely for Daenerys's gain. It's a major clue into who Dany is

@@tsuritsa3105 I can think of a fair few people who deserved to be burned alive I consider it a valid method of executing murderers; also its a medievel fantasy setting, cruel and unusual punishment was the norm in pretty much every culture for crimes like murder. You are looking at this from a modern real-life human's perspective and certainly NOT from perspective of someone living in the setting and you are ignoring the broader narrative, a few cruel acts does NOT define a person completely if we are going to judge people on executing their enemies you are basically condemning any person who tries a war criminal or deals with wrongs; its only reprehensibly evil if you kill a child, which by the way Mirri Maz Dur was certainly did, that was the intent of her spells and child killers deserve the death penalty especially in a Fantasy universe set with a Medieval system of justice. Also are we going to assume all Targaryens are evil then you'd have to lump Jon, and his two murdered child siblings in there as well, as Daeron the Good, Baelor the Blessed and plenty of other Targaryen monarches who were good and just rulers. Also you seem to ignore all the good things Dany did like freeing slaves, refusing to kill children that were her wards that she had taken as hostages, actually fighting in the War for Dawn when she didn't HAVE too even to a point losing one of her own dragons to save the lives of people trapped Beyond the Wall, also not to mention how merciful she was to Varys a man who betrayed her father, her actually taking Tyrion in and not killing him AND forgiving Jorah Mormant. Also can we be reminded that she only snapped after losing a number of people that were close to her to bull shit writing AND characters who had no business realistically causing those deaths, first off Euron being able to kill Dragon bullshit writing, you aren't going to convince me that Show Euron who is functionally a discount evil Ragnar can take down a dragon, Book Euron potentially but he wouldn't want to he'd want to use Dragonbinder to control it. Secondly the very idea that Dany needed to send troops via sea is stupid, she could have easily marched her armies overland, worried about the safety of Missandai? Keep her in Winterfell or anywhere in the North or in ANY of the territory she had safely occupied at this point. Also the Golden Company siding with the Lannisters? No the Golden Company would certianly not side with Cersei not after all the murders she committed as they have standards with what jobs they take they'd likely stay neutral OR join Dany's side. Also if we are going to talk about the real villain of Season 8 its Bran Stark, he saw ALL this and did nothing to stop it he let it all play out so he could get power all for himself. He's obviously devoid of any emotion or care for normal people which means he'd have no ethical scruples about ruining the lives of Jon and Dany just to get power for himself. He's no better than Baelish in my eyes. If you were to have put me in charge of writing the final season changes I'd make, Cersei dies flat out, the Night's King is killed by Jon instead of Arya which made ZERO sense, and ultimately Jon and Daenerys would either both ruler as joint rulers husband and wife OR establish an elective monarchy or hell even a democracy or Republic, or just break the kingdoms back up into eight sepperate realms and have the two sod off over the Summer Sea to find a new realm to raise their children AND the Dragons in peace far from the nonsense. That would be a bittersweet ending, nobody sits the throne Jon and Dany have to deal with ALL the people that have died along their lives with all the mental and physical scars that implies, and well the Seven Kingdoms will have a better government then anything Bran can provide I'll tell you that much. Season 8's ending was NOT remotely bittersweet it was a tragedy, Martin's intent is for a bittersweet ending like that of the Lord of the Rings, the thing is if want that you don't have to kill off your two leads, just make it so their lives have changed and the world has changed so much that they can never return to their previous lives, Frodo couldn't stay in the Shire which wasn't even the same Shire he left because Saruman took over after escaping Orthanc with the aid of a band of brigands causing the hobbits to have to fight to free themselves; Frodo himself still had the scars from the Morgul wound and had to go to Valinor so he could be completely healed he left Middle-Earth behind, Aragorn never was able to return to the way of the Ranger he became the King of a nation and embraced his duties, and of course Gandalf, besides the fact that the Grey Wizard wouldn't be wandering Middle Earth as a grey Wizard because of his death, he has completed his task that was to defeat Sauron and he sailed away with the other ringbearers from the Havens past to the harbor gates and beyond to the White shores of Valinor and Eldamar in a realm beyond the world of Middle Earth. The Lord of the Rings has a bittersweet ending; GOT Season 8 has a tragedy at best or just sloppy horrible writing at worst and honestly I could have written a better ending that made sense. Hell if we arguing that killing someone is enough to exempt them from ruling Bran can be exempted by confining poor Hodor to his death by Wight swarm, we can exempt Sansa for having Ramsey Snow eaten alive by his own dogs, we can exempt Tyrion for murdering his own father, we can exempt Bronn for being a Sellsword who has killed a LOT of people, we can exempt Sweet Robin for throwing people to their deaths via the Moon Door in the Eyrie, we can exempt pretty much the entirity of the cast because every single surviving member by Season 8 had killed somebody in a brutal over the top fashion, its what happens in the setting its NORMAL in the setting judging it by modern morals is a stupid idea because the context AND civilizational norms along with technology are completely different. Anyway the point of it is that the last season of Game of Thrones was a collective shit by Dumb and Dumber on the fanbase and horrible writing for a finale they had TWO YEARS to make and would have gotten more time if they'd ask. Defending Dany's turn is like defending that season in general and lets be honest with Discovery's new management it will likely have to be retconned to keep the franchise having longevity because as it stands the only way to get back the fanbase is a retcon because eventually people are going to get the nagging feeling and remember that all the spin-offs they all lead to the same trainwreck of Season 8. Anyway, I think its awfully stupid of you to try and defend the shit writing of Season 8 and defend the child murderer that was Mirri Maz Durr, also one thing to note Dany thru herself on the pyre and it was meant as both justice and suicide for herself along with a funeral pyre for her dead son and husband, she had no idea that she wouldn't burn nor that she'd hatch dragons. Also can you really blame her for making the choice she made, if someone had done that to my relatives I'd see them burn alive too, but that may be my sadism but I will not stand by and let you call a child murderer and a murderer in general unjustified of death, its only the manner of it that changes, also she deserved to suffer, she made two people suffer agonizing deaths with her dark magic and poisons and rendered a woman near infertile; I'd say that death by being burned alive is getting off easy if it were me deciding her fate I'd have buried her in the ground and had her eaten alive by fire ants or have had her drawn and quartered by the Blood riders pulling her apart with their horses, or had flayed slowly to death, or had her buried alive or had her crucified; there are worst ways to die then by fire and to be honest I think that the US law on Cruel and Unusual Punishment is stupid with regards to execution criminals that have been proven guilty of murder, rape or other high crimes that merit death should have agonizing public deaths, it's only fair that for their crimes they suffer before they die. On that colorful note I only have one thing left to add that being that if we are going to talk about what should have been the end-game villain it should have been entirely the Night King, he was built up to be the big bad, killing him off in the middle of the season and in such a bull shit way made the rest of the season pointless as the real enemy that the show had been building up to died in the middle of the act: Night King is dead, story is over no need to create a new final threat: if you want a clear endgame threat it should be the one you've built up as the big bad since the first episode the White Walkers and their Night King, not take a character who was largely chaotic good for the entire series up to one stupid point and have her do a sudden complete 180% in character morals. The idea of doing that is just SHIT writing ok I've written fanfiction with better plot twists: Anyway I'm going to do the sane thing and write off Season 8 of as a nightmare that Bran had when he was still training with Blood Raven and create an alternative ending which to be honest Discovery is liable to have to do that if they want to turn a long-term profit from the franchise.

@@JediLordNathan You seem to have inferred a lot of things from my remark that I didn't say. I never said all Targaryens were evil. I didn't say there was one villain of Season 8 over others. In fact I haven't even seen Season 8 of Game of Thrones as I am mostly a book fan. I'm engaging in character analysis here. I didn't discount anything that Dany has done. I said that she is a complex character. She has done both good and bad things. I believe after the end of "Dance with Dragons" she is poised to take a more explicitly villainous turn in her book arc. That is almost the sum total of my remarks, and I'm not at ALL sure why you are so defensive about it. I said point blank that Dany is one of my favorite characters. I'm not going to debate morality with you. You can say I'm looking at things from a modern context but even in the middle ages, which I have studied, burning people alive was reserved for religious crimes and was still heinous. The time period doesn't make it less awful an act. If you think that horrific executions are appropriate for people, well...that's certainly a take. I disagree wholeheartedly. In any case, the overall subject was Dany as a complex character versus straight off hero, basically. I don't find her to be the pure "hero" of the piece. I don't really think anyone fits that bill, although imo Jon comes the closes - which often also makes him the most boring read. Happy reading.

@@tsuritsa3105 You will at least agree making her a villain was bad writing and they should have just stuck with the Night King as the big bad, they'd already built him up no need to create a new twist villain when you already had a VERY serious villain and a major world-ending villain at that point. Again best option Night King is big bad, Jon and Dany both survive or if one dies then Berric uses his abilitie to resurrect the fallen, the encounter makes neither of them want to be ruler, Cersei gets toppled easily and a new system of leadership is put in place with neither Jon or Dany having any part in leadership of the Seven Kingdoms and instead choosing to live a life FAR from the nonsense of Westeros either over the Summer Sea or in Mereen where Daenerys was fine off and beloved hell it would keep the Slavers from ever returning to power and create a lasting legacy that won't die with her death, a new Targaryen Realm rulling over the Bay of Dragons and what remains of Valyria and potentially Qarth. That would be a good ending and the two passed away still scarred by the many losses and never able to return home BUT it would in place where both their hearts may rest. Bittersweet because of all the deaths but not tragic

Yeah, in real life someone going through so much trauma would be able to go through therapy but in that world, they wouldn’t be able to.

malicious compliance!

@@cervicalvertebrea that's not malicious compliance. That's regular compliance.

Interesting theory!

Ooh, I like that theory

I don't know how many of the Dothraki were left by that time. Would Mirri have been able to get away or would she have been stopped? Where would she have gone? Her whole village was destroyed by the Dothraki. Maybe it was because she was actually innocent. Well, not in the show. They made it quite clear she did everything intentionally. But in the books it's not certain.

While I agree that killing Mirri was not righteous (in the book), I don't think it has absolutely anything to do with her being a slave. She is not punished for reveling against her master, she is not punished for defying her master, she's killed because in Danny's eyes she was responsible for the deaths of her husband and son. And I believe thay deep down she knew it wasn't, but the pain and regret of accepting her own culpability was way more than she could handle, so she forces herself to believe Mirri is an evil witch that got revenge on her. Let's not forget that in the books she is just a teenager that has just lost absolutely everything. Her only way to cope and move on is to reinforce in her mind her idea of what her destiny is and to pursue it.

I thought it was fkd up that MMD was blamed for KD death when he was drinking and taking milk of the poppy when MMD explicitly told him not to

Poor and arbitrary assessment. 1. She never burns people for pleasure LMAO. Never in the show nor the books implies she gets high or laughed or anything whenever she EXCUTED people by burning, go ahead cite me and prove me wrong. Even at the meerenese pit, she's disgusted watching people hurting each other. Your claim is severely arbitrary. 2. Rickon and Randyll. This always blows my mind whenever people make this as an argument for her mad evidence. First look at the context, Tarlys are Tyrell bannermen, and the Tyrell has sworn to be an allies for Daenerys cause. Meaning if Tarly's betrayed the Tyrell that also mean they betrayed Daenerys. Betrayal in and of itself is a crime that is punishable by death, no negotiation. Robb executed Karstark for breaking the rule, Jon beheaded Janos for disobeying a command, nobody questioned their decision. But now Daenerys executed traitors, that openly war against her, which is objectively worse than just disobeying a command like Janos, but somehow It's wrong for her to executed them? Added the fact that she gave them second chances to live TWICE. Did Jon gave Janos second chance? did Rob have Karstark second chance? The double standard is disgustingly too apparent. ANNDD ALSO added the fact that they're losers in battle. Losers in battle are either automatically executed or prisoners. What Jon did against ramsay a battle loser? Surely Jon let Ramsay live a happy life right? 3. 'She doesn't take different opinions well'. Well this is another arbitrary baseless claim. Keep it short, and concise. Jon, Tyrion, Daario, Hizdahr, Selmy, Varys, she has complied to many of the aforementioned people's opinions and advices, not just Jorah LMFAO.

@@saddany3254 exactly. She never kills for the sake of killing. Mirri was in her mind responsible for her loved-ones deaths. The masters she crucified deserved that punishment since they did the same to their slaves just to send a message. Randy and Dickon Tarly did not "have an opinion different than hers", the Tarlies were sided with Cercei and thus her enemies. Had she not executed them or improsoned them, they, and their army, would have fought against her. Many more lives woukd have been lost in a full blown battle. Letting them go free would have been a moronic decision. But still, she did not take pleasure in killing them, killing them was what needed to be done if you take imprisonment out of the table.

So it would make sense for Tywin Lannister to go apeshit one day and destroy King’s Landing too because of all the atrocities he committed? How many lords or kings had people killed brutally because they refused to bend the knee?

100%

@@saddany3254 Cope

That's what I thought too. That Daenerys basically traded him for Drogo so that he could be alive. Or something in the magic took/twisted him as sacrifice anyway

Oh yeah that would totally make sense!

@@HillsAliveYT I have another theory. That Rhaego's life is the life sacrificed to give life to the dragon eggs, and that the life Duncan saved was actually the soon to be born Rhaegar

Yeah I think that’s a very good point, I mean presumably if a maegi wanted to bounce she could, and the fact that she realizes that Dany is going to resurrect dragons and doesn’t seem to want that also can’t be a coincidence.

@@HillsAliveYT What's really weird though is that even though Mirri didn't seem to want her to resurrect dragons, doing that only becomes possible for Dany _because_ of Mirri and her actions. There's something very wrong here...

@@thetalesofelbek7042 a logical, airtight argument from Team Lizard when faced with canon as usual lol

@@thetalesofelbek7042 Hmm, so you disagree with this video? Hill's Alive seems to think that Mirri's presence on the funeral pyre was essential for hatching the dragons.

@@jostockton. What's "Team Lizard"?

Oh I guess I could have made this more clear but I mean Mirri is the key in the sense that the tragedy at Summerhall was almost identical to what Dany did except it was missing a dead priest/priestess/magic user or whatnot, so burning Mirri was what Dany did correctly while other Targaryens before her who tried to resurrect dragons did not.

I like the three lives for three eggs idea. Mirri was the conduit though.

At this point in the books she seems to be wrestling with the awareness of this about herself. It's a shame I don't think we'll ever see it play out on paper.

nice

Dany didn’t kill Miri for killing drogo or her son she killed her for the dragon ritual, she even tells Miri this leading to her saying she is mad, she doesn’t rationalise it as justice or whatever, it’s a price to be paid for her dragons, one of her darkest moments and she knows this. I think this is one of the biggest misconceptions of Daenerys, people always say she is self rite out and can’t see when she’s wrong, but she has thought of herself as a monster several times, her story if about her grappling with her inner monster, the desire to save and the desire to kill. As grrm said he writes about conflict in the human heart.

Yep, very well said.

I think in the forsaken chapter it’s her in aeron vision she wants to be worshiped and adored

I would suggest it’s more grey that is the conclusion rather than black to white, white to black; GRRM saying things are situational and messy, that even people like Ramsey, Joffery, Gregor, and Petyr have “good” reasons and/or justifications for why they do what they do. Ramsey IS the true heir of Winterfell denied his rightful Stark inheritance by the Starks, mother cast away. Gregor pretending to r-e a girl so his men wouldn’t and having nothing to do with Elia nor her children. Joffery was raised by awful people the “best” of them slapped him around as humiliation to punish him, Tyrion. Petyr is doing everything to save his actual daughter Sansa and give her the best marriage possible. For Cercei, one: by “true” Targaryen inheritance (maternal) she is probably the oldest Targaryen (Aerys and Joanna) woman and rightful heir to the throne, older than Daenerys and both of them are bastards (Aerys and Ashara for Daenerys). Two: she cares most about her children and does anything to try to protect them without judgement, whether or not they seem to deserve it. Three: will be fighting Dragon Queen Hitler.

@@mistermaestersirthomas9164 How is ramsay the rightful heir of winterfell? Even if "arya" was arya (which even the boltons know she isn't), Sansa is known to be alive. Not to mention Ramsay knows that theon never killed bran and rickon, so there is no reasonable argument that he is the rightful heir of winterfell, especially not from his own perspective. What do you mean pretending to R a girl? There's no indication that Gregor actually did that. Also Gregor admitted to raping and killing Elia and killing her children, and considering how bad that would be for him, there's no reason to assume he lied. Petyr does occassionally do good things, but only if there's some sort of benefit to himself. What are you talking about? Ashara Dayne and Aerys probably never even met. Not to mention when Dany was born she was on dragonstone whilst ashara was in Dornne. Cersei does not "care more" about her children. In the books she sees her children as an extension of herself, hence why her favourite is Joffrey, because he's as much of a metaphorical bastard as she is, whereas Tommen and Myrcella are far kinder.

@@mappingshaman5280 the pregnant girl in the black water in Bran’s backing up time vision is Lady (Ryswell) Dustin. She is asking for justice since she married Brandon by the tree. Grampa Rickon and Maester rejected the marriage instead to marry Brandon to Cat. Ned was the replacement til Brandon and Rickon died. Not sure at what point Benjen went to the wall but regardless, this left Dustin with a bastard that wouldn’t even get Winterfell even though they did marry. Even after the Stark boys she was given Dustin but he “died” at the tower (really probably sent to Lorath with baby Jaqen, killed by Euron for the “dragon egg” Jaqen sold to the Faceless Men). Most of this is overlapping allusions to fairytales like two for the Yellow Fairy Book and Beowulf. Beowulf: Jon Snow (sorta Ned kinda) Grendel: Ramsey Grendel’s mother: Dustin Victim from the Meadhouse: Rob Stark (really Baratheon) aka newest Reek at Moat Calian that can hold a sword Black water over Grendel’s mother’s lair: Black water at the Weirwood Grendel’s mother’s cave: Crypts of Winterfell Unlike the show Dustin will finish off Ramsey in the crypts. Ramsey Stark true born of Winterfell eldest son of the eldest son.

@@mistermaestersirthomas9164 This sounds even more batshit than my Ramsay is Azhor Ahai theory. Roose bolton literally says that he conceived ramsay by raping a peasant. Nothing about any dustins (whom hate ramsay, because he killed her nephew).

@@mappingshaman5280 Petyr’s motives are first Cat and later protecting his daughter Sansa. Money and station was so he could get the girl, later to put Sansa in the best royal situation possible. He only seems selfish though the eyes of the people we see though. Ashara looked to Stark at the tournament Aerys was at, none of the Stark boys stood for her; fans forget Lyanna was also there. Weirdly even the ones who know she was the Mystery knight. Anyway it’s the same pattern as Lady’s death. King Robert, Ned, Ayra, Lady (wolf) King/Stark men not standing up/Badass Stark girl or woman/Lady King Aerys/All Stark men at Tournament/Lyanna/Ashara Daenerys’ story is based in part in Oedipus. The servants that “stole her” riches (actually King Aegon’s not Viserys riches) now work for Aegon. They returned to the King once the coast was clear. Next book Daenerys will accuse Aegon of being false against the recommendation of Quaithe (Ashara) and Selmy along with Aegon’s crew. This will reveal the Aegon is who he said he is and in fact Daenerys is the bastard (Ashara plus Aerys). Haldon is Howland Reed, Tanner’s wife is Septa Lemore (Selmy will confirm who she is along with Quaithe). All similar to the reveal at Oedipus with his servants and his father’s former servants.

No it isn’t, pay attention to her story in the books and it’s much clearer. The evidence is undeniable and actually more obvious in the books.

@@ItsSVO lol i am talking about the books. i think it’s more reasonable to feel that way about her just based off the show but i still don’t see it. but especially for the just the books i think it’s just ridiculous. and i personally feel that way after reading her chapters in every book over and over and engaging in and reading lots of discussion about her character and her arc for years and i’ve seen many opposite opinions and have opened myself up to different ways of thinking because i value seeing things from different perspectives but at the end of the day i always come back to thinking it’s ridiculous and that’s just how i personally feel.

I think the problem is that the TV show was written by two hacks who don't hold the characters they think are the good guys accountable for their actions or can deal with moral ambiguity, they were handed way too complex characters for their writing skills and the result is that they wanted us to cheer for Arya cooking people into pies and condemn Daenerys for a badly executed last minute "madness" episode.

No, only Targs are evil, don't you see the theme????? /irony obviously

@@targaryen7029 ahh yes, except for Jon snow of course because the starks purity neutralises the evilness.. or something..

She has hurt innocent people since book 1. I don't know why most Dany fans have such trouble understanding that nice intentions don't make you a good person but it really makes them fall blind to her destructive tendencies. She was ultimately ok with Drogo attacking the village if it meant funds for her war, she murdered Mirri for what Drogo and Jorah did, she unnecessarily killed tokar wearing boys, and allowed the torture of the wine seller's daughters who had nothing to do with anything. I'm not trying to say you or anyone can't enjoy her, btw. I certainly do. But she is heavily coded as a villain. The difference between her and most villains though is we see everything from her perspective and almost nobody's perspective of her, which means we're seeing her in a positive light that tries to dim the chaos and violence in her arc.

@@jostockton. Lmao she was not "ultimately okay" with what Drogo did to Mirri's village, she TRIED to convince herself that she needed to get used to it but it failed, she cares for them, which is the entire reason she defies Drogo's bloodriders and stops the rapes. Also, the village was attacked because another Khal attacked it first in the books, it wasn't FOR Dany, it was a normal part of Dothraki lifestyle. MMD told Daenerys that a horse was never enough, she always intended to sacrifice Rhaego because she wrongly believed that he would be the Stallion and just like his father. That is why she took the opportunity to kill both Drogo and Rhaego, she wanted to prevent what happened to her village from happening again because according to her she had nothing left to live for after. She did not order the murder of children in Astapor, she told the Unsullied to kill the men with whips and who were slavers (tokars can literally only be worn by people who do not have to use their hands) and to avoid the children during the fighting. She is the only ruler on page who gives explicit orders to not harm children during a battle when other rulers would just kill prisoners of war. Dany allowed the Shavepate to "do whatever he thinks best" to interrogate the wineseller. The age of the daughters is not written and Daenerys started her whole campaign because she hated that children were tortured, it's pretty easy to conclude that they were not children. Also, Daenerys is the first and ONLY ruler to recognize the futility of torture and put an end to it while other characters widely regarded as good who utilize torture (Catelyn, Jon, Quorin Halfhand, the Manderlys, even Jaehaerys the Conciliator) are not at all criticized. Torture is normalized in ASOIAF but Dany still banned it. She is a character that makes mistakes but ultimately learns from them. MMD taught Daenerys that it's not enough to be an active bystander, the system of oppression itself needs to be toppled to do any actual saving.

@@princessshei9171 nobody's questioning her intentions or that she's done good things. What keeps her from being a true hero and more of a villain, or at least someone whose arc leans toward villainy is the fact that she casts aside benevolence and chooses brutality and cruelty as soon as doing the good and right thing inconveniences her greater pursuit of power. It's not that she doesn't have good intentions or does good things, because she does, but I'd argue her selfishness always trumps her goodness when push comes to shove. Maybe I'm just forgetting, but at what point has she done something good and righteous at her own expense? When has she ever done something good that wasn't also to her own benefit? Okay, she locked up her dragons when they burnt up a child, but she allows them out again as soon as she needs them again to pursue greater power.

@@princessshei9171 that's a very long way of saying that the ends justify the means. That's a very heroic worldview... I get what you're saying, but we're gonna have to agree to strongly disagree.

@@Tyler_W You are so wrong about her character and actions. 1) Daenerys saved the women from being raped and enslaved which risked Drogo and his Bloodriders's wroth, she was scared that she asked too much when she approached him to tell him what happened. She was only 14 at this point. 2) She freed the Unsullied out of the goodness of her heart, there was no ulterior motive. She had exactly enough to pay for the amount Jorah told her to get so it wasn't about not being able to pay. Her and Barristan were so horrified by their training and the torture the young boys, puppies, and babies went though that she slapped Jorah for bringing her there and risked her life and tiny Khalasar freeing them. Her plan depended on the Unsullied recognizing thay she was going back on her deal, not actually buying them, and choosing to fight for freedom on their own. She was lucky they still had enough humanity to think for themselves and thinks that the Gods heard her prayer when they did not turn on her. 3) She freed the BED SLAVES of Yunkai, they had absolutely no use to her, but having been sold to Drogo she knew what it was like to be sexually abused and wanted to save them which she tells to Ser Barristan when he says she should move on. They were more detriment than benefit due to the amount that could not fight and making the food more scarce but she freed them anyway without laying a hand on the city. 4) She gave the slaves of Meereen the power to fight on their own by supplying them with weapons, they chose to make her Queen of Meereen and she put off her entire conquest to stay and stabilize it. Many times she is offered gold, ships, and political marriages to reach her dream of Westeros but she refuses EVERY time because she wants to heal Meereen and hold herself accountable. 5) She locks up her dragons to protect her people and makes herself seem weak to The Harpy (The Green Grace) by refusing to harm her wards. 6) She gives up her sexual freedom and happiness to forge a peace and stop Harpy attacks through a political marriage with a horrible person who revels in violence. 7) She goes against her morals and allows the fighting pits to be reopened even though she despises them all to appease the people she freed. 8) She starves, dehydrates, miscarries, and almost dies on the Dothraki Sea in an effort to get back to her people and help them. ADWD is nothing but a test to see how far Dany is willing to go to help her people and the answer is pretty damn far. She draws the line at being raped, enslaved, and possibly murdered when the Dothraki show up, and self preservation is not a bad thing. Daenerys DOES NOT let her dragons out at all after they are locked up, Quentyn accidentally frees them when he tried to steal one and ends up getting crisped. It feels like you didn't actually read the books tbh.

Yes but in the books she is a 13 years old girl who lost her unborn child , her husband her brother. She is as low as this woman was. Anyone who doesn't realize that needs to the books.

Mirri commited an act of murder with her hexes' she killed Dany's child with her dark magic, cursed her, AND poisoned Drogo, those are some VERY evil actions and honestly she deserved to be burned alive for her crimes, she was a murderer plain and simple defending her is like defending Tywin Lannister, they both talk of something that seems good but they are evil beneath the surface. Rotten and cruel and just petty with a desire to use her revenge to murder.

@@JediLordNathan Did she though?

​@@JediLordNathan Even if she did (and we don't know that for sure), Drogo and Daenerys attack her village, murder multiple people, rape and enslave the rest - and all that only to get money so that they can go fight Dany's war for the Iron throne and murder *more* people. Given the circumstances, Mirri would be completely justified in killing Drogo for his crimes against her people. With Rhaego, it's more complex - by an "eye for an eye" vengeance-based mentality, his life is fair game; by our standards, he's an innocent. However, there is also the "Stallion who mounts the world" prophecy, which (as Mirri and the Dothraki believe) applies to the unborn Rhaego. In that case, it's a "baby Hitler" scenario - would you not murder him if you had the chance, and even if you wouldn't, would you begrudge those who would? This is all assuming that Mirri poisoned Drogo and killed Rhaego and did both of those things on purpose, when there's plenty of reason to believe otherwise (see: the video above). But even if she did, this is not some great betrayal as Dany would have it - it's a slave taking vengeance on the masters who enslaved her and destroyed her home.

@@violax3735 How many times do I have to say to stop judging the actions of people in fantasy universes by the standards of our real modern world, much less given the setting being a medieval one. This kind of behavior is NORMAL in the time period. Also, no I would not kill baby Hitler, even if I would be saving millions of people murdering an infant is EVIL plain and simple and indefensible, you can't give me any reason to justify things of that nature, time travel and kill Hitler as an adult fine but NOT as a child that is evil indefensively so you are snuffing out a human being before they even get the chance to develop their own sense of right and wrong, Rhaegal could have been an evil tyrant but he could just as easily have been a kind and just ruler you don't know for a fact what kind of person he'd have chosen to be he was robbed of that ability. Essentially you are defeating your own arguments by advocating for child murder. And again, what is good, and evil is ALWAYS a relative for the culture and religion, the Dothraki act this way because its the way their society works. Also Dany had zero control over what the Dothraki did with Drogo in charge, she was functionally a sex slave in her own right, she had some authority but zero control over military matters much less cultural traditions, besides her brother basically sold her to get an army to take his throne she is a victim and has only slightly more freedom then Maz Durr. Also stop claiming killing Mirri was murder it was not murder it was executing a criminal that had been convicted by the Dothraki legal system whether or not she was guilty is something you'd be hard pressed to prove either way BUT in the time period people were presumed guilty and fairly often people died trying to prove their innocence ever heard of the sinking test to prove a woman of being a which, if she sinks she's normal but also dead, if she doesn't she's a witch thus soon to die, you are dead either way. But most importantly remember the genre is fantasy meaning that the laws and norms of real life don't necessarily apply and modern standards are completely out of the discussion because not only are you dealing with an entirely different universe with its own established rules and cultures you are dealing with a totally different time period, things we consider evil in our modern world were not viewed as such in Medieval times, hell it really only became the defined way we know it after WWII when said laws were created before that the behavior was the norm thru ought history, the fact of the matter is humans are capable of good and evil equally. And lastly Dany becoming the way she was is straight up SHIT writting and unneeded when they already has an established big bad in the Night King, secondly her becoming a villain did not at all suit her character arc, and lastly she only snapped because of deaths caused by more shitty writing, not having the people she needed to council her and the people that survived were utter cunts only interested in their own self-interests, the only character you could argue was morally good was Jon but everyone else who was a shitty bastard who I might add did some of their own morally evil things: Tyrion murdered his father, Sansa brutally killed Ramsey by throwing him to his own hounds which by the way is a fate worse then being burned alive, Arya is an assassin who murders people on the daily, Bran mind controlled a human being in Hodor frequently and treated him as an expandable sacrifice, Varys was a treacherous bastard who betrayed everyone he worked for as master of whispers, essentially apart from Jon who is basically the only person that has any morally good traits apart from Davos Seaworth everyone else is just as much a scumbag as you think Dany is and she only became that way because of those people choosing to drive her insane and because of bull shit writing that killed people that mattered to her. Plain and simple you are defending the worst written series finale in the history of ANY series and one that had zero reason to be as shit as it was considering they had two years to make the thing and it ended up being a baddly written and baddly made trainwreck with characters acting stupidly in ways that make zero sense and bad decisions abound like putting your artillery outside the walls in front of the army, taking a sea route to King's Landing when the overland route was completely uncontested, and characters acting in ways that completely were contrary to how they behaved previously. Ultimately by defending this your arguements defend the worst written thing in the history of television and something that will sure as hell be retconned by Discovery's execs in a heartbeat. Its about as bad for the franchise as the sequel trilogy was for Star Wars.

From the beginning? I.e. when she was a 12 year old child bride repeatedly raped? Wtf.

I think yes to all of the questions that you're asking specifically because of the Summerhall thing. I mean, the parallels are SO intense that it would seem that Aegon V also figured out how to bring the dragons back, he just didn't do it right. Of course it's possible that he somehow figured it out via research or investigation, but it seems like dragon dreams might be the source. As for Astapor, I think her reasoning there and throughout all of Slaver's Bay has essentially been "I need this thing, what is the shortest or easiest way to get it," and I think one of the most dangerous aspects of her character is essentially that she thinks that the ultimate most important thing is her taking the Iron Throne, and whatever carnage that results from that goal is collateral damage in service of a higher purpose. So basically, I don't think she puts a lot of deep thought into it.

in a fire she was ready to die herself as well? I think you people forget that part. Also after all she went through who can blame her? That line can be interprit like this as well 'You will die but I will not take joy of your pain' That is more than most of our main POV characters would have done.

@@berilsevvalbekret772 Strangely, I have no trouble at all blaming someone for burning another person alive, even if she did it while grieving. It's always an awful thing to do, and that is well known in Martin's world, as it does not appear to be a standard method of execution. Anyway, that scene doesn't explain why Dany went into the fire, so we can only assume it was grief rather than an attempt to resurrect dragons. To that point, if all Dany intended was to die as well, why even take the dragon eggs with her? And I'm not sure how "I'm willing to immolate myself" means that burning someone else alive isn't incredibly cruel. Also "but I will not take joy of your pain"? Dany was the one choosing the manner of death. If she thought Dur deserved to die (for what reason again?) but not to suffer, she could have chosen a knife to the throat, beheading, hanging, a firing squad of archers, or pushing her off a cliff. Heck, even stoning would be less appalling. I'm not saying that other characters haven't also been cruel. If burning Dur was an isolated incident, of course it wouldn't necessarily mean Dany was a villain. But that her very first act as a ruler was to personally see to it that someone in her power died in one of the most agonizing ways possible, certainly sets a stage upon which villainy is unsurprising.

@@berilsevvalbekret772 But it doesn't make much sense that Dany got on the pyre with the thought that she would die. I think it's quite clear she made the pyre and burned Mirri in order to send Khal Drogo on his final journey AND hatch the dragons. The show had already made it obvious that she was handling heat much better than the average person and she was also obsessed with the eggs. She might not have been totally sure how things would work out, but I'm pretty sure she didn't try to commit suicide.

Sorry but no, in the book she says the " Thank you for teaching me this lesson" line that they have her say after Xoro Xoan Doxos betrays her on the show. She wanted Mirri's life because as Mirri taught her, only death could pay for life. She was doing magic to hatch the dragons and it was more about that then reveling in Mirri's suffering. Just saying.

@@Daniko2 as a muslim let me tell you burning kills you faster. WAY faster. Danny is also the one trying to abolish slavery actually stayed in Mareen to you know try to fix her shortcoming , locking her dragon because one child was cooked to crisp because of them and I love the wine accident because one; we don't know the girl's ages two; there was an actual assasination plan. I don't blame her at all for the ordering of torture. Cruel but effective from time to time. As for Mirri let's look; a 13 years old girl forced to marry a barbarian forced into sexual acts to the point she literally rewires her brain to get some modicom of enjoyment gets pregnant , watched her abusive brother die then the idiot husband gets himself killed. This is after she sees the actual cost of gathering forces. Then she looses her baby in one of the most horrific ways I can imagine so I am not least bit suprised she did what she did. I don't condone it but I understand it. Your precious John Snow pressed a girl's hand into the fire in the books. In that world being too kind without strong allies who will do anything for you will get you killed. This goes for double for the Essos if your city isn't named Braavos.

Which of the Starks r@pe anyone? None of the current time Starks ever do that.

Nah, Dany continuously thinks about the eggs telling her to put them in a fire, but the fires she has access to aren't intense enough.

Yes I feel the same. I think she could have chosen to be better going forward, but she killed her slave in exchange for dragon power, largely embracing everything that the Valyrians represented in the worst way possible, and what makes it scarier is that she fully justifies it to herself and doesn't see anything wrong with it.

@@HillsAliveYT that’s it. I mean, I do feel for her, she’s just a kid, I don’t want her dead. But at the same time, she never makes the choice to fully confront the things she does and to take responsibility for them. She says she does, but she never truly owns it.

@@misskate3815 Yes exactly, like there are other kids who do some unforgivably fucked up things in my opinion as well, but I can empathize, I understand why they're doing what they're doing, and I hope they turn back. Dany's life is horrifically isolated and depressing, she never learned to do the right things from anyone, and in a large way her entire path is heartbreaking and her choice to take power where she can get it actually makes sense. But I think one of the major questions readers are meant to confront with her is essentially, how long will you let your empathy for her excuse her actions. And obviously I can't say with 100% certainty that Dany won't turn back or try to be better either, but I don't delude myself into believing that D&D just torpedoed GoT's most popular character by a mile because they wanted to and gave zero fucks about completely rewriting the end of ASOIAF, and even within the book story she has done terrible things but keeps making the wrong choices anyway. As you said, she never fully confronts it or owns it, which is not going to lead anywhere good in the long run unless she actively changes.

@@HillsAliveYT the thing about Dany is that she’s basically a lesson on why you shouldn’t give traumatized kids nuclear weapons. Which is a very specific lesson, but still a good one, 😝. Thing is, she goes from hearing only “no”, an abuse victim and child bride, to suddenly hearing only “yes”. She has dragons, and that makes her consistently one of the most powerful people in any given radius. But because she’s still a child who was never given any guidance on developing a real moral compass, she can’t use this power well at all. She has no real empathy, for example, because she was always having to protect herself and concentrate on herself. She has no real sense of responsibility because she was only ever concentrating on surviving her abuse, which coincidentally also left her helpless and dependent on other people’s responsibility. She has no real opportunity to heal from her trauma because she goes from powerless to wielding the most dangerous weapon on the planet. So, in essence, she’s an abused child who suddenly has the ability to destroy her abusers. Who all just happen to be dead. So what can she do with all that rage, selfishness, fear, anger, and hatred, except destroy the world? Even if she doesn’t know that’s what she’s doing.

@@misskate3815 This, exactly. I will always sympathize with the Dany that longs for a home, who longs for a place to belong, who is truly alone. That doesn’t make her less of a villain, albeit a sympathetic one. The quest for the Iron Throne isn’t one of a heroine taking what is rightfully hers and becoming a peaceful ruler, but a traumatized child lashing out at the world that wronged her, causing death and destruction in her path, fueled by vengeance and Targaryen hubris. Her goal are not ones we should cheer for, but ones that will lead to her destruction and the destruction of others.

Exactly this, we do see those instances where she is willing to sacrifice other people to gain whatever she wants, but her journey is about figuring out that the only live she should be willing to sacrifice is her own, and that is my prediction for the end. Dont forget that she sees Drogo beyond the wall, which means she will die there and I think she will sacrifice herself there, perhaps by burning the heart tree or something.

But all she did was get roasted, making Dany more powerful by being used to hatch the dragons, so maybe she was just fucking stupid.

No, it was badly set up, the plot breaks it's back bending over to justify the people of Westeros supporting Cersei, a hated figure, with 0 legitimacy to rule, and had Daenerys make no use of her overwhelming advantage to just take over the second she arrived, because bad advice and concerns her dragons would cause collateral damage... that's completely undercut when she later takes the city with her dragon and 0 collateral, before burning down random civilians. Her cruelty towards her enemy's doesn't equal wanton destruction for no gain.

@@arnigeir1597 Facts!!! It wasn't the fact she became the mad queen the problem was how it was executed is was pissed people off... The Writing was piss poor and lazy to the point that the story was nonexistent, the plot made no sense, turning her advisors 2 of smartest people in Westeros into idiots giving her all this horrible advice which got 2 of her Dragons killed and both of her army's severely reduced, when all she had to was to take the dragons to the red keep kill Cersei and be done with it as she showed in the bells episode she could've done without collateral damage is just nonsensical and wasn't believable, she got no character development and because the writers were too lazy and wanted to subvert expectations just for the sake of it they completely destroyed her character's legacy and her entire arc was meaningless

@@weldezzharris if they wanted to make her massacre believable, she should have said f*ck it after the 1st or 2nd attempt at diplomacy and burned her way to Cersei with no regard for collateral, it's not like dragons are precise, so it would have made the decision to kill her much heavier. having her go evil after a flawless victory and surrender is lazy feeding to the audience.

@@arnigeir1597 Exactly... foreshadowing means nothing if the execution is poor and doesn't make sense

What mercy did Robb show to the watcher who was forced to watch? What mercy did Robb show to a littely boy who had seen his parents killed and eaten by wildlings? What mercy did Ned show to a deserter who had just fled in panic. What mercy did Sansa show to the man she fed alive to dogs? What mercy did Arya show to the kids she baked into a pie and fed to their father and the entire old family she decimated without giving them a chance to surrender? Going but but but Mirri while ignoring all the other main characters is hypocrisy

@@harish123az what do any of those people have to do with Dany's evil actions? Absolutely nothing. Accept that you cheered for the wrong person.

@@jostockton. It helps to fully understand the topic before jumping into the discussion. The discussion never was if Dany burning King Landing was evil. The video is claiming that we had signs she was evil all along and uses the examples given. My counter point is that every single protaganist and main character in the show did same things but were cheered P.S. Never was a Dany fan and never will be. She is someone who faces no consequences because of her birth and dragons (unlike characters like Robb, Ned, etc) But its hypocrisy by dumb people I cannot stand the most The show makers screwed up and didnt show the evil turn properly. Accept that and move on

@@harish123az First off, deserting the Night’s Watch is a crime. Whether that man deserted due to panic or what, Ned start legally had to execute him. Also, I don’t recall Ned Stark, Sansa Stark or anyone else being painted as a “savior”. Danaerys is the only one calling herself “Breaker of Chains”

@@icoleman150 ​ Come, lets not move the goalposts now. The topic was not about who proclaims themselves savior or what Danerys called herself, its about who showed signs of being a villain before. That's the literal title of the video. And no one says Arya, Sansa, showed signs of being a villain, despite those deeds I outlined

all of the characters are "grey" but she's definitely on the more evil end of the scale. she's at least as evil as joffrey or stannis. many of the characters are, whatever their many flaws, not mass murderers. also, she was clearly planning to burn king's landing at least since the moment she learned jon snow's lineage. it was a practical decision as much as an emotional one. to the unsullied and other slaves of essos, she could offer "freedom". an illusion of freedom, really, but at least an upgrade in their status and dignity. to the common folk of westeros, she could offer nothing (besides bringing a rampaging horde of useless, murderous savages to their homeland in the dead of winter). they're already "free". she would become their absolute monarch, no different from the ones they'd already had. the only card she could play to secure her rule was abject terror. terror, and killing off enough people to perhaps "solve" the food scarcity problems her army had caused.

@@joshridinger3407 You think she's as bad as Joffrey? Joffrey regularly tortures and murders people for no reason other than because he enjoys. He has fun watching people suffer. Also, how was it clear she was planning to burn the city as soon as she learned Jon's lineage? It pretty clearly seemed like a split second emotional decision.

@@joshridinger3407 Also "all of the characters are grey" is not true. There is nothing even remotely grey about Gregor, Ramsay, Joffrey, Tywin or Roose.

there's no hero or villain, this is asoiaf, kid

@@Nihilanth first, don’t call me kid; comes off as patronizing. Second, I know that, but when you literally have someone who then starts calling herself Breaker of Chains, who then describes herself as a liberator of slaves, sounds to me that she believes she is “good” and has some sort of savior complex.

@@icoleman150 sorry, it's just that, for someone to think that way, i really thought you were a kid. can you please quote wherever she said any of that in the books?!

@@icoleman150 Nah, the Starks are the only good ones, right? Anyone else are bad.

You cheered for a murderer and feel embarrassed about it now. I understand. But the best thing to do is some soul searching, rather than dropping unwanted essays full of lame excuses that literally everyone *has already heard for years from Dany fans* defending a supremacist warmonger who murders children and slaves on a very articulate video disproving your whole point here that said warmonger is actually an angel and everyone else is worse, just because. I have faith you can do it; your defensive response hints that you're aware Hill's Alive is correct.

@@jostockton. omg thank you for pointing out those weak ass excuses dany stans loving usinf

@@jostockton. every main character was a murderer 🤡 & it’s a fantasy show so no one needs to do soul searching for liking the lady with dragons that tried to do some good though she is flawed like everyone else in the world. we also watched a man who pushed a child to his death bc he caught him fucking his sis, a “good & honorable” man who cuts off a mans head while he is frightened by the white walkers, he calls him a liar before executing him, jon executes a confused child, I could go on they’re all flawed characters duh lol many with narcissistic/ psychopathic tendencies but only dany snaps or is held to our worlds standards while Arya baked people in to pies, go Arya!

Amen. She wanted the Unsullied army for free. She felt entitled to it….as she feels entitled to everything. The fact that the guy didn’t even suspect she might do this shows just how despicable a move it was. He was an awful person and even he couldn’t fathom that Daenerys would just kill him rather than pay the price she agreed to.

And unfortunately while the shortened end to GoT bothers me, I don't think a longer series would have solved it because I think D&D likely always had this in mind as the final "big twist" for the show when GRRM isn't really intending for it to be that way.

I wonder if they wrote the ending by role playing as the characters in a D&D match

​@@HillsAliveYT I think D&D's poor writing skills coupled with their obsession in "subverting expectations" would have made the end of GoT unsatisfying whether or not they had more episodes.

I agree that the writing for Dany going mad was terrible, but I don't think it's a good argument to say she hasn't done anything to King's Landing in the books. She literally hasn't had a chance to destroy King's Landing even if she wants to, she's still a thousand miles away and her dragons are not city leveling size yet, they're hardly big enough to ride.

"Well written villains are (in their perspective) the hero of their story)." This is sometimes true, but not always, there can certainly be well written villains who are simply pure evil to the core. One of the best characters ever written is a literal embodiment of evil.

I don't think Daenerys is evil, I think that she is doing a lot of things that she doesn't understand that have really enormous consequences for all of the people she has power over, and I think ultimately she will prioritize her desire for the Iron Throne over everything else, which has been a proven dangerous mentality for everyone who has sought out the throne. Her desire for the Iron Throne is the root of everything that happens with Mirri and the Lhazareen in the first place, and while her freeing many slaves is awesome, her understanding of slavery and abolition is incredibly simple to the point where she's making moves that she doesn't grasp the meanings or consequences of. Interestingly, there is multiple instances of subtext that indicate that her "followers" actually believe that they're her slaves, and when she re-legalizes slavery so slaves can sell themselves, she starts taking a cut of their profits, which actually also makes her likely the single person who has profited most off of slavery in Slaver's Bay. Again, I'm not saying this as if she's pure evil, but I point it out as how badly she misunderstands the situations that she is forcing herself into, and as an example of the fact that thousands of people suffer for her rudimentary attempts to figure out how to actually rule. And that is largely the biggest problem. There are other characters who are in a position of power who do terrible things with that power, unsurprisingly a lot of it is done in the name of the Iron Throne, but their power is far more limited than Dany's. For instance, we can recognize that Robb's choices are understandable from his POV, but as we see from Arya's POV in the riverlands, his choices have also contributed to brutal and horrific suffering for innocent people who didn't deserve it and who likely wouldn't have suffered at all were it not for his decisions. In the wars in Westeros, the characters are at least limited by the fact that they have adversaries who are powerful enough to make a stand against them and they have lords and other people in power beneath them that have significant influence over the course of action that's taken (again to use the Robb example, he is responsible for a lot but Joffrey, Tywin, and the other lords also share in that responsibility), but the same really isn't true for Dany. Yes, she does face some adversaries that pose a threat to her, but her method of conquering makes her an absurdly powerful person with no one to really temper that power, which means that her bad decisions can have much worse consequences for those who she has control over. And I unfortunately agree, she is one of the few characters who has enough power to actually make the world a better place, but the way ADWD left off does not make it seem like that is going to be her primary goal at this point, and her desire for power has already caused the suffering of hundreds of thousands. Is she a person who sometimes has good intentions and good ideas? Yes, but that's cold comfort to the people who have suffered and died for her conquest, and I don't think GRRM wants the real cost of Dany's poor leadership and desire for the Iron Throne to be overlooked because she's not evil. Hardly any characters in the story are evil, but that doesn't mean that they should be absolved of responsibility for the horrible choices they make or things that they do, and a lot of what Mirri says very astutely points this out, which is why it's so unfortunate that the real importance of what she says is intentionally overlooked by both by the audience and by Dany herself.

Your analysis has blown my mind, thanks so much!

I think it's actually basically built into her DNA, I think the Targaryens grafted dragon DNA onto their own to give them power over dragons and so essentially her dragon side knew what to do. Like, animals don't need to be told how to reproduce, they just do it, if that makes sense?

@@HillsAliveYT you think an instinctive knowledge is coded into her DNA? I'm not so sure, there's something mystical going on, what with her dreams of the gemstone Emperor's and the like. I agree with the dragon hybrid stuff.

Dany was a dreamer. It was implied that she had “dragon dreams” which instructed her

@@jessicar4934 Oh, sure, there are plenty of references to the Gemstone Emperors, Quaithe and other things in her dreams. I don't recall anything that specific though. Could be Dragon Dreams, could be a dreamwalker. I wonder if all Targaryens get the urge to do this ritual and it's what causes their obsession with fire.

I still disagree with the idea that she was always evil, but yeah her Stans are really insane. I see so many people acting like slaughtering King's Landing was justified and saying that was her right.

Yeah she was 13 .

Like you stanned the other characters?

If you remember what she did in Astapor it was totally within her to do that…and Drogon wasn’t even big then.

Yeah this is my view too. Dany is no more cruel than the other protagonists.

@@GenerationBright Yeah i just noticed all this channels videos are simping for Sansa and hating on Dany. Wonder what their opinion is on Sansa feeding an alive, awake prisoner to his dog and beheading a Lord without a fair trial. If you are talking about choosing violence, at least be consistent

So you're absolutely entitled to your opinion and to dislike my opinion and that's cool, ultimately if the POV that Dany is a villain is something you dislike then you're probably not going to enjoy most of my content anyway, but if I have done a video involving any of these characters these are things I have specifically called out as well. The Jon thing and the Robb thing are the only things I have not directly criticized or pointed out as villainous yet, and that's because I haven't done videos involving those specific incidents yet.

Exactly what I was thinking. This comment should have more likes and be higher up

@@harish123az what fantasy world do you live in, dragon simp? Cuz I'm DYING for a place where people FINALLY realize Sansa is a better person than Miss Child Torturer 😆