Sansa’s arc sets her up to want one thing and one thing only: independence. She’s been a POW and a political pawn for six seasons and by the time she returns to her home, her desire for autonomy is perfectly aligned with the North’s desire for succession as well
Whereas Daenerys has been largely autonomous since almost the beginning of the series. It would have been so interesting to have seen this dichotomy explored.
And the safety that comes with it. She was fine with her brothers being in charge, be that Jon as king or Bran as lord of Winterfell - as long as it was one of her own that she could trust she felt safe. So much for her being "power hungry" or "Cersei 2.0".
What bothers me most about people's dislike of Sansa based on her being a "damsel" is that she was a literal child. She was an eleven (thirteen in the show) year old girl when her father was executed and she was held prisoner and had never been taught to defend herself. How many pre-teen girls in her situation would act any differently?
This! It is ridiculous how many people hate Sansa for the "crime" of being a 13 year old girl who was raised to be a lady and therefore acts like one. Imagine wanting to punish a teenage girl for having a crush on a boy who turned out to be abusive. She's literally a victim.
@@leelahasan3988 Same way Tommen gets a lot of hate for no reason when he was forced to be King after his brother got murdered, people hate him for being "too weak" or "soft" when he was a literal child, it's unfair and makes no sense.
Given her circumstances I'd say she was actually a strong character, until the writing got bad enough that none of the characters could be impressive anymore.
@@leelahasan3988 best honest opinion!!! It's that same thinking that makes adults feel like they get to decide physical punishment for children without a trial like they would an adult....adults from the age of 18 to 65 get to decide the treatment of family members >18 to
I LOVE this video. There were so many things done wrong in the series, and the portrayal of Sansa and Dany as emotional unstable bitches instead of political driven characters are DEFINITELY some of the worst.
I tottally agree with you. They reduced two amaizing super complex femele characters into two shallow girls. Not to mention that I too think Is tottally unbeliviable that no other character refused Danny as a ruler in the north. The northerns are very willded and tradicional, they have theire own royal family. The Starks.
Exactly, and it's incredibly frustrating that the show basically nerfed the biggest political drama of the entire series just because they wanted everyone to be super shocked that a character who spent 7 seasons talking about burning cities to the ground actually burnt a city to the ground.
@@HillsAliveYT Yeah and even the whole Danny going mad thing... wasn't done right. Because it took years for The Mad King to lose it. And Danny losted in one single episode. Like, happened over night.
Yeah, but If this show was logical the wildlings/probably alot of notherners to would have forced Jon to behead her for treason for keeping the Knights of Vale secret for not reason.
I read Dany's entire arc in Mereen as her attempt to govern in the fashion of Sansa. In Mereen, Dany doesn't want to utilize her dragons or military to squash her enemies. She tries to rule through negotiation and politics, but its not her forté and her inaction ultimately backfires. I think Mereen will teach Dany to lean even farther into her direct power.
@@jostockton. But the novels aren't finished. Don't forget that Seasons 7 and 8, including a good deal of Seasons 5 and 6, were not based - loosely or otherwise - by those novels already published.
@@juanitajones6900 In the books, Daenerys would probably choose fire and blood. She's on the way there, if not already on the destination. She's currently experiencing diarrhea and is probably so mad at everything.
I agree with what you said about Sansa, but man, I really wish they had her character behave with more tact in season eight. Of course she is not going to hand over Winterfell easily, but she also wouldn't be stupid enough to antagonize the dragon lady needlessly. It's just a dumb move. I was expecting her to be portrayed a lot better.
@@HillsAliveYT Right? This girl has learned when to not state her opinion and when to weaponize it in her first story arc. Why would she unlearn it now?
@@jaydenjezowski4339 Exactly, it's a political liability, and it would have been especially useful to play her cards close to the vest given that Dany is completely unfamiliar with the nuances of political maneuvering, especially when it comes to the political situation in Westeros.
Actually I thought she did just the right thing. Santa let Danny know that will she was going to cooperate because that was required of her that she was never going to make it easy. So she would cooperate just enough to survive and then overtime make herself more and more inconvenient so that the north would be more and more inconvenient to deal with. If the kind of plan that goes entirely in line with all the things she learned in King's Landing. Tyrells 101
@@devorahacts Sure, whatever you need to tell yourself. But you can’t all Sansa clever if she’s going to do dumb stuff like that. And sadly the writers did.
I guess I'm in the minority, but I liked Sansa as a character (not so much in Season 1). Dany too b/c mature people can like more than one female character in the same show. I would have loved a more complex arc between her and Dany where they work together and admire each other for how they each overcame adversity in their own ways. But their political perspectives keep them from being true friends.
People who liked Sansa prolly also still liked Arya. People who liked Dany prolly still liked Missandei and the Queen of Thorns. The Sansa vs Dany made it hard for fanboys/fangirls to not judge the other more harshly. Has nothing to do with sex; but in picking overall factions. That tends to happen when the protagonists start clashing with each other directly.
@@stephenjenkins7971 I also agree that it's more a faction thing. It's always Sansa vs Dany, Sansa vs Arya, Cersei vs Margaery, I just feel like the male characters don't polarize as much though. Who would one pit Jon against? The Night King? Not much choice. Maybe Tyrion vs. Jaime (which is an extension of Dany vs. Cersei although the brothers don't clash as much)) It's especially obvious when you look at the fans of House of the Dragon. Rhaenyra vs. Alicent is often synoymous with The Blacks vs The Greens (for those who don't know: these two are the two factions that fought in the Dance of the Dragons)
@@Bwans_Art Jon doesn't have much of a comparison barring Dany. Tyrion vs Tywin, Tyrion vs Jaime, Jaime vs Robb, etc has vehemence too. Though it should be noted that the characters you mentioned are typically viewpoint characters with a lot of chapters behind them.
Sansa always spoke to me: sheltered teenage oldest daughter people pleasure with an ideal of the world built by fantasy stories and music. Yeah.... I get it. Thank you for this video!
Yeah it always bothered me how Sansa superior claim was ignored in favor of making Jon look like a hero. In thr novels almost no lord would respect that ad it would jeopardize their heirs
In the books there is still the matter with Robb Stark's will: He named Jon his successor and disinherits Sansa for marrying Tyrion. So maybe Jon will end up as King in the North in Asoiaf as well, but for sure with more political intrigue and through different means.
LOL not to be that hyper-specific nerd on main, but if we assume that Robb's will does somehow legitimize Jon (and I'm always suss about situations like this where GRRM intentionally avoids directly stating that Jon is now the first in line), that doesn't necessarily mean that Sansa is disinherited, it can very likely just mean that Jon is now ahead of her in line. If Jon is now the heir to Winterfell, I suspect that this is what's going on, both because disinheriting someone is a much bigger deal than legitimizing an acknowledged elder son of Ned Stark, and because if Sansa shows up in Winterfell sans Tyrion and with a pretty solid claim to Winterfell herself then it's a bigger political mess to untangle.
@@HillsAliveYT Oh I totally agree that it's not the easy solution some would like. I just meant that it does give Jon a better standing, especially in a patriarchal society. And everyone just goes on and on how much Jon resembles Ned, so the northmen longing for Ned 2.0 could be possible. A written permission could help bolster this view
Oh yeah I agree, it totes does. And I know it was obviously the best choice in a bad situation at the time, but it's lowkey hilarious that Robb likely legitimized Jon in order to protect Winterfell from Lannister control, but Sansa is going to show up in Winterfell with an unconsummated, annul-able marriage and a bunch of Valemen who are expecting to reap the benefits of her claim, meaning that Robb's will probably created an even bigger clusterfuck of a succession crisis than they were facing in the first place with Sansa's forced marriage.
Stupid idea, but instead of the scene we got in Season 8, imagine the following scene: At the end of Season 7, Jon not only submitted to Daenerys, but agreed to marry her to cement her claim to the North. (Let's be real. It was ridiculous that this didn't come up before.) Sansa does not meet with Daenerys directly, but instead has a conversation with Tyrion. The conversation is reminiscent of Sansa's conversation with Olenna Tyrell in Season 3. It's clear that Sansa does not want to sabotage Jon's alliance, at least for now. But she wants to make sure Daenerys, her future queen/sister-in-law won't be a tyrant who will abuse Jon. She wants to know if Dany is a kind person, and wants to sort out Cersei's lies from the truth. Her conversation with Tyrion raises a few red flags for her: 1. Dany did burn Randyll Tarly and Dickon alive for refusing to bend the knee. 2. She crucified 193 men without trial, not sorting the innocent from the guilty. 3. Daenerys almost refused the alliance unless Jon agreed to bend the knee. She says nothing to Tyrion, but she talks to Arya later. She explains her fears, but tells Arya to keep quiet while they still need Daenerys. They can decide what to do afterwards.
Not to be a Crazy Dany Stan but How are those three things worse then the average actions of a character in the universe? Ned Stark chopped off the Head of a scared teen running from Ice zombies in episode 1, tyrion used wildfire in the battle of season 2 and many other examples
@@tibitibi9417 I think the points are meant to be looked at from Sansa's PoV; Sansa wouldn't have seen all the good that Dany did like we have, and when our loved ones are involved we tend to be far more critical of someone that might hurt them- especially an abuse victim like Sansa who may already be fearing the worst. Only hearing about those points from an _outside_ view _would_ look concerning (That's just my guess on their comment, at least XD)
@@tibitibi9417 Ned taught Bran that a man must face the consequences of his actions. Most guys who took on the black were criminals, so they could not desert their post. But the man was a deserter, and it was his (Ned's) duty as the warden of the North to mete out the punishment, which is beheading. He said to Bran to strike once, and to strike true. Ned beheading the lad might be seen as excessive or even cruel, but I personally think that he only did his duty as the warden, and he didn't have to like it, he just had to do it.
I really think that Sansa and Cat are hated by the fans because they are neither masculine (Arya, Brienne,), sexy (Margery, Cersi), or magical (Red Women, Dany). The female characters in thrones need to fit into some fantasy of the viewer to be well liked. Sansa and Cat are just normal grey women playing the game of politics and they are hated for it.
I think people don't like Cat because almost every political decision she made led to the downfall of her family. But it all began with Ned and his poor decisions, to be fair.
I think both their characterization and plot lines in the tv show were so much weaker than what they are in the books. Particularly Sansa's. She becomes so much more interesting as she develops in the story and it just felt forced in the show.
Cat is a decent, but flawed, person. Sansa is totally underrated, if you don't count the absolute nonsense of the writing of the later GoT seasons. Saving Ser Dontos was awesome, and she was strong when she (as a child, basically) was able to comfort the women during the battle of the Blackwater. A perfect foil to Cersei's degeneracy and selfishness.
Always thought the show could have fleshed out political tension between Sansa and Daenerys. Sansa was raised and learned the subtleties of politics while Dany would try but end with brute force. The scenes feel like deleted cuts added to a extended edition.
Yeah that's something that always irked me as well, I think that Sansa's reaction is understandable but also uncharacteristic given that she has spent her entire story having to play things extremely subtly without expressing her inner thoughts and emotions. Like, the notion that the most powerful person on the planet would show up at Sansa's house with the largest army in the world and Sansa would be super aggro towards her is bizarre, and it would have been far more interesting to see Sansa and Dany "play the game" with each other the way they normally would with everyone else.
Clearly the show needed Seasons 7 and 8 to be full length seasons to allow the character development to fill in these dots. I didn't think Sansa hated Danaerys because of her love of Jon Snow. She didn't like her as she was an outsider. To date, outsiders have made her life a living nightmare. You get glimpses of Sansa being a good ruler but everything ended up feeling rushed. I wish they had done 3 full 10 episode seasons to complete what they rushed in 13 episodes. They could have dived into Dany's mental state as she began to feel isolated and lose allies in her conquest of Westeros.
I mean, realistically they probably should have done like 12 seasons, but the fact that the battle against the dead and burning of King's Landing happened in 6 episodes when those would normally be story arcs that took at least an entire season is bonkers.
Yeah, I think that there are many valid criticisms of GoT and Dany's trajectory in particular, however I actually think it being "out of character" isn't one of them. Yes, the scale of destruction in King's Landing was intense, but it isn't exactly unheard of for Dany to A. presume that anyone who doesn't want to follow her is evil and B. for her to set those "evil" people on fire without deliberating on it for very long. Dany deserved better in the sense that there are a thousand layers to her character that are leading towards a disastrous conquest, and frankly I think those layers make her a far more interesting character than the straightforward heroine GoT mostly presented her as, but honestly even within GoT it wasn't particularly out of character in my eyes.
Yeah, it’s very clear from the get-go that Martin always planned on Dany burning down Kings Landing and taking over Westeros through blood and fire (the way she conquered every other city in the story). The issue was that the last few seasons of the show were so rushed and shallow that it just comes across as “Dany went crazy” rather than “this was inevitable.”
I guess it might depend on which corner of the fandom you occupy, but you'd be shocked how many people have messaged me and still basically been in complete denial that Dany burning King's Landing was even a possible ending in the books.
Yeah, she wasn't an instant favorite for me but she definitely became my favorite. Honestly, as someone with terrible luck, I actually find her hilariously relatable in the sense that in my wildest fantasies obviously I'd be the super cool warrior or have dragons or superpowers or something, but if I were actually transported to some magical world I'd probably be just like Sansa, like I meet all of the assholes and my magical pet would die and everything that can go wrong for me would go wrong.
Loved her from the start, a good balance to the wilder Arya, I was very much the princess type when I was younger, so I tried hard to become "refined" but it did make it rather difficult to relate to others until I was older. Now I'm still graceful when I'm not falling on my face as a complete klutz.
I think a primary reason as to why this is so is because she's not a wish fulfillment sort of character. If anything, she is more like them than they care to admit and they hate it.
I always took Sansa not wanting Daeny as her queen as Sansa just having an astute intuition bc of what she’s been through. And then at the end when daeny sets everyone on fire like that, it reaffirmed Sansa’s intuition for me. That’s just how I took it
100% agree and love this breakdown. We needed someone with more perspective to review this situation for a long time. Yes, I think this lack of focus on the main story theme and not staying true to character arcs diminished them. D&D sloppily tried to address a few points of this but were so committed to a “twist” that they destroyed any coherence. It boggles my mind how people still persist in calling Sansa the one who was power hungry when time and again it was shown that the opposite was true. She always deferred to the will of the North and acted as their voice of dissent even when it made her a target while Dany was forcing her rule on others and counting on peoples knowledge she has the dragons and would use them. Wonderful breakdown of the foil tie between these two characters. We need more honest Sansa and Dany character analysis content like this.
Thanks! And yeah, I know it's obviously unpopular to see them both as more complex and morally gray characters rather than Sansa = evil and Daenerys = messiah of the world, but I also find it weird that A. people still see them in such black and white terms and B. that they're so steadfast in who is the bad guy and good guy in this scenario. I also think it's lowkey hilarious that GRRM borderline obsessively subverts every fantasy trope that he can and yet so many viewers and readers are completely stuck on the idea that the characters perfectly fit into their character archetypes without ever deviating from that standard.
I love how you pointed Sansa’s story arch develops her ability to galvanise people to work together and her diplomacy. She’s never had hard power only soft and to be honest I don’t by the “Sansa is the new Littlefinger”. Neither is she the new Cersei. You can still learn from bad people, you learn how not to use your influence or charisma or strength for selfish purposes. The “If I’m ever Queen, I’ll make them love me” conversation with Cersei and Sansa in the books illustrates Sansa take on learning from this types of mentors.
I’m an absolute jerk to even ask this as it’s obvious you put a ton of thought and work into each of your videos but someday it might be cool to do a comparison of leadership styles and philosophy of power between the three Queens Sansa, Cersei and Dany. No pressure though. Keep doing the topics that inspire you to put out this great content!
Yeah, I know that everything is up to interpretation, but I don't get the Cersei/Littlefinger comparisons either. Like, even if you were to assume that Sansa enjoys hurting people (which it seems clear to me she does not), like... she's gonna kill Littlefinger? She's going to see Cersei lose everything she cares about and then die? She'd have to both be cruel and ridiculously stupid to mimic the behaviors of people whose behaviors literally got them killed.
And thanks! You're not a jerk for asking at all, as evidenced by my nonexistent posting schedule, I pretty much write about whatever inspires me when it inspires me. And I almost certainly will do something like that at some point, I love all of the whole world of ice and fire but I find the female characters particularly compelling and mentally inspiring.
Sansa was never an “irrational bitch” and she was never power hungry. Every single scene in the show between them clearly showed why Sansa didn’t like her and it was all for GOOD reasons. She knew that Dany was a power hungry conqueror and was worried for her people. And the show actually showed those things. Yes the show is horrible in many ways and flawed when it comes to Sansa but this time it actually wasn’t, and most people would be smart enough to see Sansa’s reasoning.
Right well I agree that she wasn't an irrational bitch whatsoever, but I think the show painted her that way and it seems to have generally worked given how many viewers seem to think that Sansa was the asshole in the whole Sansa vs. Dany scenario. Her reasons for not wanting Dany to be queen were 100% correct, but the fact that the show had her be the only major dissenter and had a lot of other characters like Tyrion and Jon act like she was being a pain in the ass about it really unfairly positioned her in a bad light. To be clear, what I meant was that the show portrayed Sansa's behavior in a way that made it seem like she was being an irrational bitch, and I completely disagree with that portrayal and think it was extremely shitty way to use her character as a scapegoat rather than acknowledging that perhaps invading and conquering isn't actually what heroes do.
I dont think Daenerys is a power hungry conqueror, a conqueror yes power hungry no. Sansa wants to have her home back and Dany the throne, both of these things make because its supposed to be their. When Stannis say million of times that he's the heif of the iron throne everyone Acclaim him, when the Stark want their home back everyone Acclaaimed them. Why is It when Daenerys want to get the throne it's a bad thing? She's doing what everyone is doing. Do You remember tue deal was that she helped them in the knight king battle and they supported her for the ascend on the throne well they didnt even do It. They used her and let her sacrifice her army while not even saying a thank you.
Daenerys saw the Severn kingdoms as hers. By the end of the series Sansa was queen in the north therefore it was hers. What would happen if northern houses revolted and plotted a rebellion against Sansa? Would she be considered a conqueror or tyrant by not letting certain houses have independence? Before Aegon the conqueror and his dragons this happened all the time. Heck look at the Boltons in the main story. The show depicts Sansa as jealous. She trusted JAMIE LANNISTER more than Daenerys. The man that is basically responsible for her dad, mother, dire wolf and brothers deaths. Daenerys did nothing aside from aid the north with two dragons, dragon glass, unsullied soldiers and a horde of Dothraki. Her farther killed her grandfather years before she was even born. That was the only reason we were given for the hate Sansa had. Yet she never once blinked at Tyrion or Jamie being around. The last time dragons came north nobody was burned or died. The Targaryen queen Alysanne Targaryen rode her dragon Silverwing to the wall, made marriage pacts, helped with the costs to rebuild certain areas on the wall, extended land ect. It seriously comes down to stupidity.
@@iside2373 That’s what I’m trying to say. Sansa is “power hungry” to a degree. I’m sure not every house wants Sansa as a queen by the end of the story. They probably view her as tyrannical too
They [D&D] completely disregarded the political turmoil that we were accustomed to in the first 3 seasons. The last season should've have had more politics
She was vilified because she was a complete BITCH to Jon.. especially in the books, she was never able to accept or even be cordial to Jon and was petty enough to even wish death upon him. She was jealous that he as a bastard looked more like a stark than her kids did (especially Sansa and Rob) as he had all the stark features. She treated him like crap and this basically lead to Jon being miserable and taking the black.
Probs is in the show, Jon didn’t really usurp shit…like he didn’t considering they thought he was Ned’s legit bastard son which mean has a legit claim in their eyes and the North later unanimously agreed he be their leader.
Great video! I never thought of Daenearys and Sansa as foils, but it is a brilliant observation and makes the character assassination in later GoT even more tragic. Now I hope the books will come out and we get some epic scenes between these two!
Thanks! LOL and I think if someone tried to draw a map connecting all of the characters in ASOIAF who are foils to one another it would look like a spider web, but the inherent conflict between Dany and Sansa is definitely something I'm looking forward to the most if/when the next books come out.
Sansa hated her from day one. I think it's because of Cerce ( if I spelled that correctly). She had major trauma from her family and projected to Daenerys. Because Sansa hated without even meeting her. Eventually it became a reason because the goals of northern people and Danny was not the same.
When it comes to sansa during the early seasons I hated her but over time she did grew on me even though I hate the final season dan and dave did make a good decision to make her queen of the north but I hated what sansa tells the hound during the feast at winterfell I was really appalled about that
Oh my god, lord beer me the strength it takes to not tear my hair out when Sansa essentially tells the Hound "yeah, if it weren't for all of those people who manipulated, abused, and raped me, I wouldn't have learned". Every time I think about that conversation my head feels like it's about to explode.
@@HillsAliveYT Yes! Especially because Sansa showed an interest in politics from a young age and had all the adults in Kings Landing not been awful and Cersei mentored her on how to be a queen like she was supposed to (I mean she kind of did but Sansa was a POW at that point) she would’ve learned the ins and outs of ruling perfectly well.
I love both characters so when the final season came I fully understood both their perspectives. There was simply no way Sansa and Dany could ever be friends for all the reasons you stated. I never saw Sansa as a bitch for what she did because it made sense for her character not to trust Daenerys. She’s been in the capitol long enough to see what the iron throne does to people. Daenerys also had a valid point. She came to save the north and was immediately met with hostility and distrust by the people and only after the defeat of the dead did they accept her as their queen for she had fought for them. With Sansa being the only one left to see the writing on the wall. Her telling Tyrion the truth about jon wasn’t scheming for power, it was a last minute resort to make people listen to her. She knew it would force jon into a position where he had to chose between Dany or the north and of course, she was right. Dany realizing her only play in Westeros was to use their fear of her by burning kings landing showed them dany would never give them a choice in the matter.
Jon did a complete disservice to Dany by lying. This is the only reason their acceptance of her was completely nonexistent. He pretty much tells them, she will only help us if we bend the knee. She's a great Queen, you just don't know her...yet, she'll let us all die unless we submit to her... If he were honest they would have been cold, that much is certain but the blatant disrespect may have been shelved because they would at least know the King they chose, chose Daenerys. Not that he was forced into submission.
You know who else isn't "special" in the world of Ice and Fire? Davos. He just decided to do the right thing at the right time, and his storyline is always entwined with someone else's (Stannis and Jon). He's the perpetual mentor/sidekick character, and he doesn't have any power other than his words, his acts of service and his loyalty. Like Sansa, he's also a survivor.
He’s not very interesting though. Melisandre is a more fascinating character study because she does horrifying things for seemingly altruistic reasons (to save humanity from the long night)
In my opinion I see Sansa as the successor to Cersei as the most intelligent woman character by show's end. 1. Cersei taught Sansa her most powerful weapon was between her legs. I daresay Catelyn Stark taught her daughters better than that. The Lady of Winterfell would've ensured her daughters would be Ladies of HONOR, not ladies with men ON HER. 2. While in King's Landing after the death of her father, she suffered unspeakable humiliation. With every bit of pain Sansa endured, Sansa learned a valuable lesson never to be forgotten. 3. Joffrey's biggest mistake was forcing Sansa to look at the heads of her father and her septa on spits. The Red Wolf was born right then and there. 4. Although she knew it not, it was Sansa's testimony of the king to Odella that sealed Joffrey's fate. Without knowing it Sansa avenged her father's death.
While the flesh monger Littlepenis, apologies, Little finger thought he was impressing and grooming Sansa with his own Laws of Power, he actually did nothing but teach her. After the Master of Schemes killed Sansa's aunt by shoving her the door in the floor, Sansa showed what she learned; using tears to convince the Small Council of the Vale Littlefinger did nothing wrong and he only meant to protect Sansa from her mother's deranged and delusional sister. Long story short, Sansa mastered her most powerful weapon: her mind. And Sansa never showed what she knew. The trial of Littlefinger served three purposes: 1. Exonerate Ned Stark of any and all acts of treason. 2. Expose Littlefinger as a power hungry manipu later willing to use anyone to further his agenda and kill them once their purpose has been served. 3. Execute Littlefinger and set Knights of the Vale fighting for the living. The Tully slogan "Family, Duty and Honor" was well served.
Did Sansa betray Jon's trust by telling Tyrion Jon's true lineage? Yes, but her betrayal was for the greater good of the North. "We know no king but the King In The North Whose Name Is Stark." The North would never submit to a foreign ruler. Death Before Dishonor. The North named Jon Snow "King Of The North". Did Jon Snow betray The North by surrendering his crown to Daenerys Targaryen to secure Dany's aid against the Night King? Yes, he did. At Dragon
In the caves on Dragon- stone Dany told Jon she would fight against Night King only if Jon bent the knee. When Dany saw Jon's wounds, Dany gave her word she and Jon would fight the Night King together. HOWEVER, DANY DID NOT INCEST, INSIST JON BEND THE KNEE. Jon didn't have to surrender his kingship to Dany.
Using House Tully's motto: It's the Family's(Stark) Duty (responsibility) and Honor (never betray Family and Duty) to protect the North always against any and all enemies.
Sansa knew Tyrion would tell someone about Jon's parentage causing dissent between Dany and her inner circle. That's a Cersei move worked to perfection.
So I have watched the scene between Dany and Sansa many times and it always seemed to me that Sansa was playing the game of faces that Arya taught her on Dany. To me Dany tipped her hand when she thought Sansa was cold to her because of Jon and you see Sansa kind of be annoyed at this at first cause why did it have to be about Jon when it wasn’t. It’s the end of that interaction when Sansa really lets her true feelings out and Dany is knocked back at how wrong she was about Sansa. So much so that you notice from that point on she pays no mind to anyone else but it is Sansa that Dany views as the true threat to her. If you remember the vision of the ice wall in the House of the Undying people have theorized that the the blue winter roses represented Jon, but it really is symbolic of the Lady of Winterfell. Who is the Lady of Winterfell at this time? Sansa. The truth is in that moment Dany realized that the ice wall was the North and it was Sansa keeping her from touching the iron throne because the iron throne itself is Westeros as a whole and it is Sansa protecting the entire continent of Westeros from Dany.
This may sound stupid but I used to think that Sansa would end up marrying Jon (due to a comment I saw on a spanish video), this are the reasons they mentioned, based on the books only (I apologize if something doesn't make sense, english isn't my first language): 1. Sansa wants a hero to kill Janos Slynt, but she thinks there are no heros in the world. However, someone kills Janos, who is Sansa's hero? Jon. 2. They want the same things. They both desire a home life; when Sansa thinks she's going to marry Willas, she wants to have children with him, and she wants to name her children Eddard, Bran and Rickon. She also dreams of a girl who looks like Arya. Meanwhile, when Jon contemplates marrying Val, he says that he always wanted children. He wants to name his son Robb. We also know that as a child he dreamed of being lord of Winterfell. 3. Sansa thinks no one will marry her for love; if someone marries her, they'll do so solely on her claim. After that chapter, Jon rejects being Lord of Winterfell and mentions that Winterfell belongs to Sansa. 4. when Sansa steps down from the Eyrie, she describes the snow touching her face like the kisses of a lover. 5. Jon's first crush was Ygritte, a redhead with blue eyes. One might believe-because Jon consciously thinks so-that Ygritte resembles Arya. However, Jon appreciates that Ygritte likes the songs, and he likes it when she sings. So Jon could indeed be attracted to someone like Sansa (some might argue that Jon would never be attracted to a damsel in distress, because he himself has mentioned that he likes warrior princesses. However, his subconscious says otherwise. When he imagines his future with Val, he doesn't imagine her as a warrior princess, but as a loving mother who takes care of Robb (her imaginary son), Mance's son and Gilly's son, and Sansa's arc is the one more related to motherhood). On the other hand, Sansa's first crush was Waymar Royce, who was a member of the Night Watch and was described as thin and grey-eyed (and Jon is, after all, a thin, grey-eyed member of the Night Watch). 6. Their development as characters and their respective journeys are very similar. At the beginning of the story, they both have the idea that they are better than the others, and they are both idealists. Jon imagines that honorable men go to the Wall, and then learns that they don't. Sansa thinks that the world is a song, and that princes are good and queens are beautiful and kind. She later realizes how wrong she was. They both start their journey at the same point, both emotionally and physically (and, at the same time, they were at the extremes of Westeros' social classes; Sansa as a typical lady and Jon as a bastard). As they leave Winterfell, Jon goes North and Sansa goes South. Then, Sansa is forced to live with the Lannisters (her family's enemies) and pretend she wants nothing to do with the Starks, while Jon is forced to live among the Wildlings (then enemies of the NIght Watch) and must pretend to be loyal to them. Finally, Sansa is framed for murder and Jon for treason, and Jon finally becomes Lord Commander when Sansa becomes Alayne, Baelish's bastard. 7. One of Sansa's favorite love stories is the story of Queen Naerys with her brother Aemon, and Jon would pretend to be Aemon when he played with Robb. 8. In the Stark family tree, a Jonnel Stark married a Sansa Stark. And a Jacaerys Targaryen married a Sara Snow (a Stark bastard). 9. Sansa wanted to marry a Baratheon prince who was actually a bastard, and she would end up marrying a bastard who is actually a Targaryen prince. 10. There is a theory that, as in the series, Sansa and Jon will be the first Starks to meet again. It is argued that Sansa is "the girl in grey". It is assumed that this character turned out to be Alys, however, they never mention that she arrived dressed in gray. 11. Jon's death. They say Daenerys heard Jon's death (Ghost's howl), but she describes it as a distant howl that didn't make her feel any less hungry (or something like that). Sansa also heard something similar to a “ghost wolf” howl that was as loud as the mountains (something like that) 12. Sansa is told that the red comet was for her fiancé, and at the time, both the readers and Sansa and all the other characters thought that the fiancé was Joffrey, but Sansa herself recognized that, if it had been for Joffrey, the gods would have sent a yellow comet (Baratheon's colors), not red 13. Sansa covered herself with Sandor's cloak, which was stained with "fire and blood." She practically carried out a marriage ritual with a Targaryen-related cloak and it's words. 14. History repeats itself, although sometimes not as we imagine. Lyanna was a Stark woman engaged to a Baratheon; and she ultimate marries a Targaryen. Sansa is a Stark woman who was betrothed to a Baratheon. * I didn't notice this on my own, I saw it on someone else's comment years ago.
Sansa is my favorite GoT character (she’s been my favorite since season 2). I hated how the show framed the Sansa vs Dany feud, and I’m probably biased because I love Sansa with all my heart but I was definitely on her side (and I was becoming annoyed with Dany at this point in the show) but I felt the show didn’t really show why Sansa felt the way she did they just had her act “petty” they didn’t include any nuance to the feud 😭
Yes I concur, I feel like the show tried to frame Sansa as just being petty and jealous rather than, you know, acting on behalf of both herself and her country who had all already collectively decided that they didn't want to bend the knee to the Iron Throne no matter what.
Your analysis is perfection as always!!! Would love to see you cover "House of the Dragon" and the conflict between Rhaenyra and Alicent as a sort of part 2!
Finally someone speaking sense about these two characters...finally! Thank you. It's refreshing to hear this being articulated after having to listen to ridiculus hot takes.
TBH I don't even think they will meet in the books at all. But I absolutely despise when men pit women against each other. Sure I'm not a fan of Sansa, but their catfight was rooted in pure misogyny. p.s A friendly tip, could you narrate a bit faster? that would be great!
Have you tried speeding up your playback speed? Honestly it's hard for me to enunciate properly and to talk for this long really quickly, but I watch RU-vid videos on 1.75 speed and it's a freaking godsend. FYI if you're unfamiliar, if you click on the little setting wheel in your YT window you'll see a menu for playback speed and you can make videos a lot faster.
Men pit men against each other. It's unrealistic for women not to be pit against each other as well. Get over your sexism before you cry about something that absurd. Do you also know there are hateful and vile women in the world too?
I hoped sansa would play Dany in a more subtle and sly way, like she learned in the rest of the books and show. But no.... She somehow forgot about all of that. But I can't wait to see her make her way in the books.
Yeah they made her as subtle as as sledgehammer in the final season but I expect in ASOIAF it will be much more interesting. And honestly at least in fairness to GoT, it is considerably easier to create a character who is a very low-key power player when you can literally explain to the audience what's happening in their minds without them having to put their cards out on the table in a remotely overt way.
@@lola-gs8cd At this point I'm here for it, the previews that I've seen look interesting and although this may be more based on my hope than actual reality, I get the vibe that the show might present the Targaryens in a way that is more in line with the way that I see them, i.e. a bunch of self-obsessed weirdos with way too much literal firepower who each seem to think that they're the most important person who ever lived. To be honest, of all of the speculated possible pilots for a GoT spinoff, HotD was my least favorite, but even with that said I'm extremely excited for it and hope it does well.
@@HillsAliveYT yeah the moment they make rhaenyra the hero I'm out. I can understand that in the beginning she's good but it doesn't take her long to turn. I actually have my greatest doubts about the ending of the show. Because it's basically about the targaryens but ends with the starks fixing shit.
@@lola-gs8cd Yeah agreed, and I'm hoping that they will actually present a somewhat more balance perspective on the Dance in general. I don't hate Rhaenyra either, and I am definitely biased towards Alicent because I love the Hightowers and consistently eye-roll at the Targs, but I feel like it's impossible to let the situation play out without acknowledging that, while the rules of Westeros suck, Rhaenyra/Viserys/Daemon/etc. decided that they wanted to break those rules for no apparent reason just because. They didn't change the rules of succession, they just decided to break them in this particular instance, which would ergo mean that Alicent's sons would always be a threat to Rhaenyra, putting Alicent and her family into the literal "you win or you die" scenario even though she made moves to avoid it. That's not to say that both sides aren't power-hungry politicians who are out for themselves, but it just annoys me that Alicent actually DID try to come up with reasonable solutions and Rhaenyra and Viserys were just like LOL nah.
It's like they forgot the Starks grew up in Winterfell. A lot of the northerners went to war to overthrow Dany's father, and I doubt they would see her as having a legitimate claim to any rule over the North. Plus Sansa is the oldest daughter of their leige lord. The northern lords, specifically the most powerful ones, probably spent time pushing their children as potential spouses and friends to her and probably knew her well. It's just really strange that anyone would line up behind Jon Snow and Dany without a large contingent backing Sansa first.
I wish Sansa wasn’t so catty and petty, it was ridiculous. To poke a dragon queen. It will only end badly. Sansa should’ve kept firm and fought THE RIGHT WAY, for the North’s Independence. I’m not saying Sansa should be kissing Dany’s ass, and I’m not saying Dany is innocent, but Sansa should have kept in mind that Dany helped the North immensely. She have kept it respectful, instead of being a high school brat with her attitude. Also, it didn’t help with Jon going back and forth from Dany to his family, saying one thing and twist it later, it didn’t help Sansa’s conception of Dany.
The show has a really gross abuse message with Sansa in the last season. They intentionally wanted to paint her as being the new little finger, they say you carry your abusers with you forever, she quotes him, they try to frame her actions to be little finger like, she feeds ramsy to dogs, their moral basically seems to be you’ll never escape your abusers you’ll become then, and that’s a good thing? That’s why it gave people a bad vibe imo.
I hated Sansa in the beginning because she was naive child, which I believe was purposeful. Her arc, and Theon’s (another character I hated) were the best in the series by far. Sansa’s growth and perseverance through terrible circumstances was amazing to watch, and gets better with every watch after.
The show placed too much weight on shock value. And painted Dany as a hero that she never was. I agree fully with your analysis. The two women fighting over a man part? Really pissed me off, as it reduced the characters into hormonal teenage girls. Something GRRM definitely wasn't aiming for.
What I hated about this is that the writers want us to think that Sansa is some kind of master manipulator in season 8 on the level of Littlefinger. The problem is that when Littlefinger maniupulated things pretty much no one knew unless he wanted them to. With Sansa she makes it obvious that she's going after Daenerys and if Jon hadn't killed her Daenerys would have flown north and had sansa burned alive by drogon
You are missing the parallel with Ned’s arc. Sansa understood if she told she might die. If it were to happen then the realm would know why whereas people thought Ned was a traitor but didn’t understand that Joffrey was the real traitor.
Interesting analysis. I don't necessarily agree with much of it (mainly the character critiques of dany), but I do respect the effort in making coherent arguments. I think D&D definitely disregarded her and sansas characters at the end to subvert the audience. Its really disappointing. I will say that imo Dany would never go "mad" (based on my interpretation of several book and show factors) which is why I think I disagreed with a lot of what you said in relation to her character. But it was an interesting listen!
Oh I 1000% do not believe in the "mad Queen Dany" idea either, I don't think she's remotely unhinged or insane and I don't think she's going to become that as the story goes on. I simply think that she believes that her importance and birthright trumps everything else, and she's not going to suddenly change her mind if/when the people of Westeros reject her in favor of someone else.
I dont really get where a lot of this about Sansas claim to the North comes from. The North is patriarchal and set in their ways, in no laws of the North or the 7 kingdoms were female rulers a thing. Technically thats something the upcoming prequel series is about, a bloodshed and political disaster that came when a King tried to leave his seat to his first born daughter, instead of having a cousing inherit the throne, or later on his son from his second marriage. The only known Kingdom to do that was Dorne. Which is why it was so jarring to see Sansa just get crowned Queen in the North at the end of the show, theres no reason the Northmen would follow that. Why was Jon celebrated as a hero in battle of the bastards? Because he brought the northmen, the wildlings and the Watch together to fight for Winterfell and while a bastard, he was still Neds son in their eyes, and he was raised in Winterfel along with all other Neds children. It is not that strange for a bastard to be legitimized, especially if there is no other male heir. Hell, one Targ King even made a massive mess by legitimizing all of his bastards on his death bed. Bolton did the same. True born sons always take priority, but in case of Jon there were no true born sons they knew of. Why Sansa is seen as a dumbass here, is because she hides her deal with the knights of the Veil. Instead of telling Jon so they can try and make a better strategy to make better use of the knights, possibly with smaller loss of lives of people who fought for Jon, she keeps it a secret, and lets people die. On top of that the entire plot line of the battle of the bastards, all Sansa does is complain and nag Jon to take Winterfel back, providing no information, no ideas on strategy, possible exploits etc. she comes off like one of those bitchy rich teens "just do it Jon, ugh", while keeping a possible surprise attack they couldve used in a better way a secret from Jon. On top of that Sansa isnt the only one who questions Daenerys being a ruler. Most notably, Liana Mormont has quite a few words to say, and she isnt the only one in the council to do so. The issue with Sansa is that the show, doesnt show her questioning Danny for her rule or values, she makes dumb remarks about Dragons and lack of food (Ive seen people say her whinning about the difficulty of feeding Dannys army as a sensible, logical thing, which maybe until you remember Jon left with the specific goal of bringing Dannys armies to Wintefel so they can fight against the undead, so not only was this always the plan, but they are a necessity in the fight for the living) , shes convinced Jon only gave Danny the rule because he loves her and that makes him stupid. She doesnt ask about or even mention anything about Dannys values or capabilities of ruling. This wasnt the first time the North accepted a southern or a Targaryen King. No matter how much the show lies in the last season, nothing happened when the Targs conquered the North, the King in the North took the knee and surrendered without a fight. They enjoyed a rather chill relationship, where Targs mostly left the North to themselves for years until Lianna got kidnapped and the Mad king went wilding. As far as Jon being a better match for the throne, this was mentioned in the show, however, there really was no problem there as much as they tried to push it. Jon, as he put it, doesnt want it. He is allowed to abdicate the throne. No one can force you into becoming a King. Danny has nothing to fear from him. And what the people think matters little. The people may not have been happy with being taken over by Theon Greyjoy, Boltons, or even Lannisters in Kings Landing and... Well, nothing, they ruled. Jon supporting Danny shouldve been enough for the North if they trully believed in his rule, its that simple. I completely agree with you that both Sansa and Danny were completely butchered in the last 2 seasons as characters, but I dont agree on a lot of claims you make here.
I think Sansa was favored more than Jon because yes, she's a Stark, but also because they chose her. Jon was chosen first, given the KITN and abdicated without informing anyone. Jon being male was the catalyst for his crowning, though the idea to retake Winterfell was Sansa's idea, and late or not, the knights of the Vale assisted because of HER. Sansa proved her worthiness by sticking with them despite Jon's constant bone headed behavior. She ran Winterfell in Jon's absence and did a pretty decent job. The North is free because she continued to ask for it, not Jon. If not Jon, who else? Who else has done more than her in terms of sticking up for them?
It was "I WILL DO IT MYSELF IF I HAVE TO", never "just do it Jon, ugh". Watch the damn show again, sir. Most importantly, he abandoned his battle strategies and ran straight into the Bolton trap leading his army to death until Sansa saved his arse. The slaughter of Jon's army was on Jon, a man who is supposedly a better military strategist, not on Sansa. She reached out to the Valemen as a last resort to ensure she and her brother SURVIVE. Thinking that Sansa was hiding the Valemen in her little pocket away from Jon and his army...it's not at all true. She didn't trust Littlefinger after the Bolton saga and did not want to be in his debt. She went begging every house with Jon for their rightful cause when all Jon wanted was to wander in the streets after his resurrection. She asked Jon the dumb dragon to fuking wait till they have enough men BECAUSE she didn't even consider taking help from Littlefinger at that point. She warned Jon again and again against Ramsey about his sadistic methods of dealing with enemies but Jon being Jon, didn't learn his lessons about people and behaviors even after getting stabbed to death and dismissed her statements. Let's suppose she ended up telling Jon about the possibility of relying on the Vale, despite the sleaziness of Littlefinger, what outcome do you expect? Jon would have ran his mouth most probably in his meeting with Ramsey and made the enemy aware so that Ramsey could develop some strategy to deal with the Valemen as well, confirming the death of the Starks. Somehow people would still manage to twist the blame on Sansa for this. Besides, Torren Stark was wise enough to choose to bend the knee and save his people but after Robb's death and the mess created by Lannisters, it's so natural for the northerners to be wary of another southern ruler who had no damn connection to the north in any way. AND then Jon did become a simp for Dany after all.... both were horny for each other because of their Targaryen genes. The northerners HAD huge problems with someone other than Starks ruling them. They wouldn't have started the grand northern conspiracy to put a Stark on the throne otherwise. "The North remembers", "We know no king but the king in the North whose name is Stark". A smart group would pick a leader whose interests align with them regardless of the gender. Jon had the choice on that ship to keep his crown and still have Dany fight beside him, but he surrendered his crown to the mad queen.
@@snehalpatil5166 If it was meant as "I will do it myself if I have to" it wouldve been even more stupid because Sansa literally cannot. She is lady Bolton of Winterfel. She has no claim and no followers, except for Brianne that is really on a mission from Caitlyn. Even with the giants, the wildlings, the watchmen and all the support Jon and Sansa manages to scavenge in the North (in some cases through the help of Davos) and the Vale from Sansa were barely enough to win against Ramsay, and the majority of their army is literally the free folk following Jon. Sansa on her own has 0 chances and she would most likely just be captured and sent back to Winterfel like the Umbers delievered her brother to Ramsay. Thats why she whinnes at Jon to do it. Her not trusting Littlefinger would be more reason to tell Jon of her dealings with him. and it has nothing to do with her not wanting to be in his debt, Littlefinger offers "whatever she wants" to her as to begin repaying HIS debt to her because he sent her to Ramsey. If she didnt trust Littlefinger to help its even more reason to tell Jon because she obviouly told him about when and where the battle will happen and some of the battle plans when the knights of the Vale made it to Winterfel in time for the battle. I know last seasons act like they have teleports now, but gathering and traveling an army takes a lot of time and resources, which mean she also gave Littlefinger not only a chance to surprise help the Boltons if he wanted to because she doesnt tell Jon they have been alerted. If she told him they might have options to send scouts, spies to gather info and make different battle plans. As far as Jon blabbering out stuff to Ramsay is just really character assassination of Jon, the man spent months gathering intel and pretending hes a watch deserter in the wildling camp where one wrong move wouldve had him dead. Lets not pretend Jon is a rambling, bumbling idiot now to justify Sansas bad decisions. She either trusts that she has control over Littlefingers alliance completely and is just being stupid for the sake of the plot by not telling Jon to include them in their battle plans, or she doesnt trust his alligence and puts everyone at further risk by not telling Jon, because he can now surprise show up to help Ramsey in the battle. Yes, Jon fall into his trap trying to save his brother, like Sansa warned him. And when Jon asked Sansa what should he do then, she in her infinite wisdom says "I dont know". She keeps rambling about how she knows Ramsey better than anyone yet is incapable of make use of her knowledge in any way. shes just constantly like idk you figure it out jon jesus. And while we on the topic of Ramsey, its kinda funny Sansa act so indignant to Littlefinger about her accepting to be married to the psycho, as if she didnt grow up in the North, where Boltons and Starks were always at each others throats, the Boltons, the well known psychos of the North with a flayed man as their banner and "our blades are sharp" as their house words. What did she think? They were just very clumsy barbers? The smartest person in the show kinda forgot about the northern psychos she grew up with. And I get it, this is bad writing, and it comes down to the show runners having no idea how to handle the plots. And none of this wouldve been a real problem if the show would stop telling us how smart Sansa is now. Tyrion, Varys and Littlefinger getting dumber is annoying but at the very least the show doesnt keep telling us how smart they are every episode so its a bit easier to swallow. If anything the show keeps telling us how they "used to be smart". Also on the King in the North, what Stark? The only Stark alive is Bran, whos decided hes not a Stark. Jon isnt a Stark, neither is Sansa. The biggest houses and many others of the North sided against the Starks due to Robs multiple mistakes in handling the war with the Lannisters. And given by how difficult it was for Jon and Sansa to get enough of people to fight for them in the North (from what I remember only 3 houses) it would seem they didnt have that HUGE of a problem with different rulers when it comes down to it. At the ending part Bran is technically the only Stark by the rules of the region, why would they want to separate the North as a kingdom now that the only Stark male heir left is the literal ruler of the 7 kingdoms? Just as Torren bent the knee in front of dragons, it is smart of Jon to bend the knee to Dany and her dragons and armies, especially when they need them in the battle against the freaking undead army. Jon simping over Dany is completely irrelevant. He could be the biggest simp in the universe for her and it still wouldnt matter to the situation. Which makes Sansa look stupid when she whines about it. They cant fight the undead without her and survive. They cant fight 3 dragons and her army and survive. Dany being a decent human being is a bonus. Jon simping over her doesnt change that. Not to mention Sansa whinning at Dany and her army is extra stupid because she doesnt know anything about her or even tries to figure her out so she can then be like yo, I dont know about her because this, this and this. Shes just like eh I dont like her dress I guess and my brother is humping her so I dont like her, im so smart I know. Even during the battle with the white walkers, Sansa sits in the crypts bitching about Dany, the woman that is out there fighting to keep Sansa and her family home and land alive and protected from the undead. She literally wouldve been dead without her. All of it overrun by the undead. If she was actually smart she would see this as an opportunity, at the very least you can count on the white walkers weakening Danys army, maybe she will even get killed during the battle. Forging good relations and an alliance might give her a lot more power and negotiating room after the long night. But nah, lets just antagonize the dragon lady as soon as she gets here for funzies. And again, none of this wouldve been a huge problem if the show doesnt try to shove the "Sansa is the smartest person ever" down our throats every episode. If they kept her smart but sometimes her emotions and mouth is faster than her brain but is good at wiggling out of it, character that she was since season 1, it wouldve worked. But in the last seasons they decide Sansa is just brilliant so when she says dumb reckless things we just double down instead of her using her wit to manuver out of putting her foot in her mouth. Sansa as depicted in the show was smarter as a child while surviving being a Lannister hostage than she is in the last seasons.
Thank you! Your analysis/perspective has inspired me to read the "Song of Ice and Fire" series for myself. It's always been my belief that written stories always lose their full honesty when manipulated into a motion picture.
For me Arya was the character that most bothered me later. She became a total bad ass like watching kill bill or Charlie’s angels. Arya showed few flaws and weaknesses later. She almost became all powerful. For me she became too difficult to cheer for because of this.
I sort of felt the same way. I always loved Arya. She was one of my favorite characters until Season 5... when she arrived at Braavos. I felt like her story really lost its heart and momentum. Her character development seemed to focus almost exclusively on her training and her quest for vengeance. The Arya we got to know in the previous seasons was fading away. I think that's probably why the writers decided to make her the one who kills the Night King. They probably thought it would justify all the senseless time and effort they put into Arya's training story.
@@NovaLena22 And if you watch it again, what training did she really receive? She learned how to take a beating, and learned how to use a spear a little bit. But certainly did not learn to become an assassin. If you really watch again you will realize arya didn’t get much training at all for anything. And I have no problem with aria killing in the night King, but she should have had a connection prior to killing him. And don’t build up Jon snow to make us think he should be the one.
tangent: grrm has said all the stark kids are wargs, and there is theories regarding what this means for sansa. one of them is that sansa's might have something to do with birds (hence all the bird motifs in her storyline) for example.
I'm so glad I found this channel. These takes are so well informed and reasonable. I gotta admit it's nice to have a break from the casual but DEEP misogyny in this fandom.
Dany going mad was not supposed to be a " surprise". Dumb and Dumber rushed season 8 because they wanted to throw got away and be done with it. George r.r martin and the entire cast even said ot was rushed. You cant defend season 8 or give legitimate reasons why dany actually went mad. There are none. This was a wack job of a season.
if jon got married to daenerys and have kids Sansa nieces and nephews would be princess and prince and dragon rider she would have been 1 of the most powerful people in Westeros since jon would become dragon stone or kings landing she could have been queen of the north
Sansa was an idiot even in the books. Ned's death, and The War of Five Kings was the fault of her, and her dumb ass mother. And in the books, Dany isn't crazy. She shares many of the same attributes as Arya, and is very intelligent.
I loved this review and it definitely broke down for the most part how I saw the clear parallels and contrasts between Dany and Sansa's story. It's obvious these two were always meant to clash . I never saw Sansa as a bitch or petty, I knew she was fighting for the North and it was the will of the people. I agree that they both had vastly different ideologies and their disagreements were far more complex than the show gave off. It definitely could've done with more fleshing out. I especially agree that D&D once more used Sansa as a scapegoat in order to pursue a shock factor reveal. They did the same thing in S7. Paint the narrative in story that makes the audience question if Sansa is a traitor/power hungry bitch, only to reveal "shocker," she isn't and is in fact protecting her family/people. It's easy for D&D to use Sansa this way, because unfortunately, too many viewers don't actually take in Sansa's arc, they are pulled in by the shows tactics to use her as a smokescreen. And people end up believing she really is, when a simple thorough look back at the series proves this wrong. Sansa has been backing the will of the people, and also trying to keep Jon crowned as King, but she's treated like she's just trying to take power herself by some fans. If they'd used say, Arya or Jon or even Tyrion instead, we wouldn't be getting the same energy, and in fact the audience would easily grasp Dany isn't the hero. That's why they used Sansa, they knew the audience has a pre-conceived notion on her character and exploited that. And while one can argue the audience should know better, when the writers are feeding that narrative for their own gain, that kind of belief can stick more easily, even when it isn't true. It's incredibly annoying and brings ignorant hatred onto her character. Lastly, I love how you spoke on how people have the right to choose who lead them. It's true, and that's definitely been a narrative that was repeated throughout the series. From Dany being "the queen we chose" - missandei, to Jon being chosen as Lord Commander then King, all the way up to the ending being the people deciding going forward who will lead. Its all about self determination, and Dany and plenty fans of her seem to think forcing submission to others is justified.
I think in the show she is not power hungry but a person stepping into her duty as the oldest living Stark who is able to rule Winterfell. That's what I got from the show, even though there were the cat fight elements as some sort of show candy for the unsophisticated. In the books Sansa is just now learning how to get wield some power as an attractive young woman, even though the Littlefinger, the one teaching her this actively, is doing it to use her. She is learning to have power in a relationship with a man she might marry (Harry the heir) instead of letting it make her powerless. *If her new girlfriend Manda reveals her real identity to her detriment, as she might, she might come out of that a very cynical person who does power moves to protect herself, but at the moment she is liking what she can do as a desirable match, even if it is not a fairy tale of true love.*
It honestly really rubbed me the wrong way how they were written You would THINK that two, strong powerful women who have been thru a whole fucking lot would be extremely supportive of each other Like i imagine Jon might of warned Danny that Sansa is "a bit fragile and sensitive" and might kinda hint at her imprisonment, forced marriage (that tyrion probably also mentioned), second forced marriage and then escape to the wall I had honestly hoped that when Sansa refused Danny her queen and the north stood with her Danny would of gone "ok yeah that makes sense lets both be queens" but no, we cant have anything nice :^(
Also i never saw any issue that the northerners would have with Sansa being a woman Like 1) one of the lords is an 8 year old girl 2) sansas whole story is a good point of northern strength, she went thru all of that but didnt give up and look at her now
It's almost like a show which is centered around the politics and motivations of different houses, cultures and people would have a better season if the show...focused on the differences in politics of two characters who come from very different cultures with very different character qualities.
Thank you for this video! Sansa was always my favorite character because she was normal. Just like another human being with flows. I loved how she grew, learned, and understood the game and life. To me, she was one of the most interesting ones.
Wow...great commentary. IMO, the writers of this show (I'm specifically discussing the show, NOT the books) have more than a little misogyny going on. This is also true of a big portion of the fandom. I've heard so many fans talk about how "stupid" Sansa is. Really? She got out alive, and made sure that The North remained independent with her in the rightful place as queen. She also recognized Daenerys' true nature, pretty much immediately while the "smart" character on the show - Tyrion - had to witness grand scale carnage before he got got the memo.
Ironically, D&D seem to have been inspired by Dany when she decided to burn down King’s Landing by taking the last season of this wonderful show and just setting it aflame.
I never hated Sansa, but did not think much of her until about S3. She has continuously grown to be my favorite character for a lot of the reasons you discuss in this video. Because she is not "special" she manages to use that to her advantage even if the main motivation was to survive, it ultimately helped her in the long run. Costume and Hair for the show made her screen time for me even more incredible because it told its own story of where she was a character. I was too die hard for Sansa to even realize they were trying to paint her poorly, but I was quite annoyed by the lack of scenes she got in the later season when her entire political storyline was SOOOO fascinating. With Dany, I never realized the depths of her villainy but I found it so frustrating that people were MAD that the northerners didn't want Dany. their most recent memory of Targaryen rule was of HORROR and FEAR, followed by a huge war that then gave 20 years of peace. Northern Independence aside, why the hell would they want Dany there? She was the Mad Kings kid, born of rape in the middle of a war and has no education or familiarity with Westeros. People get so excited to woo a hot girl with a hoard of dragons they don't use their brains to see past the unreliable point of view with Dany, poor show writing aside.
This was the biggest missed opportunity of rushing to the finish line juggling two completely different story arcs imo. Not an extended Jon vs Night King mortal combat episode (being facetious but you get the point), but this. The Dany Sansa conflict was not a forced conflict at all. I really hate that sentiment. It embodied the very essence of asoiaf. It was just hamfisted into dinner table drama. But the clash of the 'north' and 'south' was always the essence of it all. I hold it to be the biggest missed opportunity other than a more slowburn approach to Dany's descent into isolation and paranoia in a foreign land. "They say the Ice Queen is Kissed by Fire. That her hair is like flames, and that she has a warm smile. But her eyes counts a different story. Her eyes is like ice, like the coldness in her veins. They say the Fire Queen is Kissed by Ice. That her hair is like snow, and that she has a cold look. But her smile counts a different story. Her smile is like fire, like the madness in her heart."....Saw this fanfic quote a while ago and in one sentence they did a better job of describing what the show tried to do but ended up with couple segments of high school drama and it's also a better understanding of why the opposite fortunes of our two queens than all the video essays put together. Whoever wrote it has a future in fiction.
Exactly, this is literally the heart of the conflict that has existed around the Iron Throne since it was created and is truly the foundation of all political conflict in the current storyline. That's an awesome fic quote too!
I would really like to see as sansa reclaims her power and identity, to regain some of her warging abilities, as part of her taking back what was taken from her
Especially with her empathy and little bird nickname i could imagine her nursing a bird, having a beautiful songbird in a cage, or something similar, warging into it possibly releasing it after realising she doesn’t want to keep it caged like she was
HBO wanted 10 seasons of GoT. D&D wanted Star Wars. So they tried to stuff two more seasons into 8 episodes. I love Sansa and like Dany but near the end I feel Dany's character became too entitled. I knew she was a narcissist and hellbent on getting what she believed to be hers by birthright, and anyone who didn't believe her or stood in her way was killed. Essos was full of slaves who loved her because she gave them a longer leash. In Westeros she was dealing with free people and totally ignored they weren't slaves. Yet I still continued to like her. The Stan fans refuse to see her as nothing more than a savior though. I like how they built Sansa up from girly-girl to a strong political power that people could get behind. I hate the tripe about rape made her strong though.
The Stark sisters are by far my favorite characters in the whole GoT world, the both in their very different but very special way. If Arya is a fiery little thing and have probably the most interesting path growing up, Sansa captivated my heart from the start (and I think Sophie Turner (who is astonishingly beautiful imho) embodies perfectly the "damsel in distress". I can’t help it. I always have a thing (or two) for the most fragile and/or denigrated characters in fictions. But you know the old say : "the last ones will be first".
What I actually like about Sansa is that she takes the damsel in distress archetype but she becomes a subject instead of an object within the plot, as most fairy tales with distressed damsels don't actually explore the internal life of said damsel. And I like that GRRM actually makes it clear that being in that position is oftentimes boring and terrible.
10 Minutes in and I disagree with you on some points. the show point blank put in our faces the parallels and differences between : Dany, Sansa and Cersei. Except for season 5 and giving Jeyne Poole's role which to me was wrong for Sansa, everything else is following her Vale arc ( also minus E1 of S8 ), just not in the Vale. They showed us Dany and Sansa being naive and innocent and as one gained power through magic dragons the other lost her connection to that world, as one gained more power and entitlement the other lose hers, as one tries to control with kindness only to continuously fall back to fear tactics. the other keeps her humanity and uses kindness when possible, they point blank gave us Sansa and Winterfell in S4, and Dany wanting home for a chair. etc. They also showed us how Dany may ask her advisors, and listen, she eventually always falls back to fear as her tool of choice; Sansa will also listen and ask they also show us she's thinking things over before acting. They showed us in running a land Dany tries and fails because she never learns the people or their customs, nor develops any plans; Sana knows the people , the customs and learned her limitations and has shown to plan ahead for certain eventualities ( FOOD ! ).... So saying the show failed them, nah, I say the viewers failed to follow , and many pre-formed their opinions and dislikes in season 1 or book 1 and never cared to follow past that point for the characters.
LOL yeah I mean that's fair, maybe a better way of framing it would be that the show spent it's tail end focusing on a lot of boring, confusing, or pointless shit when Sansa vs. Dany had a fantastic foundation and serious relevance to the plot and they gave Sansa and Dany like 2 vaguely mean girls scenes and nothing else.
@@HillsAliveYT [they gave Sansa and Dany like 2 vaguely mean girls scenes and nothing else.] Outside of episode 1 ( Sansa would not act that way )where the director told Sophie to play the part as this is your( Stark ) house , they gave them more than 2 good scenes, everything needed to know about Sansa could be told from S1, S2-9, S4, S6, S7, and S8, especially 8-2 where Sansa asked Dany important questions one most notably...What's your plans for the future ? Dany, just as been shown previously never has a plan pass the IT. Dany also made the mistake in saying "Jon's war;" she and Stannis both felt the north should bow to them, Stannis actually came though as it was a threat to the realm , Dany came expecting the north to except her just for coming even though Jon warned her. Dany totally pushed aside the history from 30ish years before, something Sansa and the north did not. We again are shown with Theon's return how Dany is becoming more isolated....Theon enters halts and slight hesitance kneels and explains why his sister isn't there, when asked why he came north, he looks at Sansa, Dany's face change and he said it out loud " I came to fight for Winterfell Lady Sansa if you'll have me " everything Dany's been looking for is in that scene and the scene prior. The showrunners did rush the show, but they did not relegate Sansa and Dany to two woman cat fighting.
I can't wait to the future books to come out it will tell us a lot about sansa stark new change in her life or where she going to go next in life most people misunderstood little girl dreams about fairy tales or promise of love she want the love of what her parents have it's just a little girl living in a dream who don't know what kind of evil is out in the world her parents had not told her about or her father don't know what to do with her it's a sad story.
You do yourself a huge disservice by calling out and comparing the book versions of these two characters to their TV counterparts. Why? Because the show runners of the TV show were doomed to screw things up from the jump street. All the points made about what was done on the show are justified and accurate. I mean the further the showrunners got away from the books the more obvious it became that they dropped, would drop and couldn't help but drop the narrative ball and screw up not just Sansa and Dany but a whole host of other characters as well. Your presentation is solid, thought provoking and well laid out. But I would've enjoyed the video much more if you had only focused on the who, what, where and why of what was happening to these two characters in the books. The TV show ended up being a dreary mess which hardly holds a glass candle to the books. I really wish I could just delete those last 3 seasons from my memory banks. But I just cannot wait until the Winds of Winter finally comes out. I'll be looking for videos from you by then.
I disagree with people siding with Dany over Sansa. Jon could join Dany as *King of the North* because the lords chose him. When he bent the knee the title was moot, and the Lords and Free Folk could choose how to proceed. A King or Queen needs to *provide* something to remain in power. Dany provided 'freedom' to Slaver's Bay and new lands to conquer for the Dothraki. Her dragon was turned and used to destroy the Wall & bring on the Long Night. She was afraid to close with the Night King when he was immune to dragonflame. Her massive rmy was being killed and turned into wights during the battle. Finally, Arya killed the Nighht King & John Targaryen had the stronger claim.
I see where you are coming from but we need to remember that conquest is part of the history of the Kingdoms. The will of the people revolves around kinship,geography and power. The rules are simple if you have power you should use it to gain more power. Fealty was always contrived, you can only demand it , if you had the power to make it not optional. Danny had dragons and an powerful army. She had no choice than to consolidate that power. She witnessed the rebellion that removed her family from the iron throne, she wasn't going to allow it to happen again. The will of people was never a factor in the Game of thrones. If not for Jon Snow betrayal Danearys ,would have ruled the seven Kingdoms and nobody would have had the power to do anything about it. In the politics of Game of thrones might is right.
While i agree with several of your points, im just not sure how Sansa (or anyone else really) would reach the conclusion that the North should be independent simply because of how good of a case the white walkers and winter in general make for a United seven kingdoms. No food? Thankfully we have the reach to help us! Ice zombies? Fortunately we have someone with three dragons and a massive army that can help. Jon is great but he came to Power by basically failing upwards and doesnt actually want to do It. Dany has proved herself to be a worthy ruler as well as anyone can do in the medieval moral code the characters abide by, including sacrificing half her army to defeat the walkers and a dragon to save Jon, and shes also opposing cersei, the woman who basically murdered most of sansa's family. She frequently seeks dissent from her counsil and often times follows the advice they give her. Ultimately, d&d Just never wrote a situation where It would make logical sense for anyone to oppose Daenerys, including the people of kings landing (which would probably follow anyone who opposed cersei, dragons or not) and the people in the North Sansa comes off as CrAzY because her mistrust of Dany is basically writer claravoyence, she has a bad Juju about her which turns out to be true! its pretty deptessing what they did to both of these characters
Well you see they kinda forgot about political intrigue, book lore, and character development on all fronts, they just hoped the pretty colors would be enough to distract us all haha I love book Sansa and I love book Dany and the show just couldn't get either of them right and it always irked me the wrong way. By the end I didn't like either, but am still rooting for both in the books. I do however disagree with your assessment of Daenerys, in the books as you stated all of the characters are far more complex. In the books, she consistently seems to confront the idea of power, and the consequences of it, reflects on her actions, and deep down longs for a life away from all of it. Although I personally think Dany's destiny lies with fighting the Others, I do think that her time in Westeros before the battle for the dawn will be different. I'm not saying she is a perfect heroic angel, quite the opposite, she is flawed, but she is also a young adult of almost 16 who has suffered immense trauma trying to change an ancient system that has been abusing human beings for thousands of years, the same system she fell victim to. Essentially she is doing the opposite of her Valyrian ancestors. Its not as if the slavers are going to willingly give up their power and allow for an equal and fair society, but the system has to change even through drastic measures occasionally. But its also important to note that unlike in the show she doesn't give these elaborate speeches about taking anything with fire and blood, which in my opinion is a huge difference between the show and books.
Well GRRM has said that his interest lies in the conflict within the human heart, and I think that there is definitely a part of Dany who just wants to be a normal girl with a safe home, but there is another part of her that is a violent and egotistical conqueror. I also think that she does learn, but ironically in my reading of her, she's always learning the wrong lessons. I think of all of the characters who battle with inner conflict, hers is some of the most intense, and GRRM puts that on display by having her constantly contradict herself (a great example being that she claims she wants to end slavery but claims inherent superiority because she's a part of some "master race" that was built on the backs of slavery"). But one of the beauties of ASOIAF is that every single person can read a character and story in an entirely different way!
@@HillsAliveYT Well that's of course what makes asoiaf so intriguing is the conflict within the human heart, while I do think she does learn, its both wrong and right lessons she is learning but we'll just have to see what she decides to do with that experience later on, but yea I guess I've always just read her differently although I do understand your perspective! I'm really looking forward to seeing where he takes her character in Winds.
i hate how Sansa was portrayed in the last seasons, as this cold and arrogant character. Sansa had an incredible power. through her kindness and her flattery, plus the knowledge she gained with Cersei and Littlefinger, she could have used that power in a smart way, not by being obvious and publicly always trying to undermine her political rivals in public just to seem smart. not even Cersei did that in the early seasons. they say she is very smart in the end, but everything she does proves otherwise. from neglecting to tell Jon about the army of the vale, to being played around by Littlefinger in season 7 and the many stupid things she kept saying in season 8....
Sansa claiming to represent the people in no way negates her power it strengthens it cause northerners will always prefer to follow a Stark. Especially one who listens to them unlike Robb. Daenerys didn’t put Sansa in any position either Daenerys agreed to help Jon & fight for the north BEFORE he bent the knee her dragon’s death bought her armies fr. He bent after & gave Daenerys the north! I do agree they ruined everything including Sansa & Arya with season 7 you would think with what they been through they would somewhat admire Daenerys & at least try to play the game. Arya’s reaction to Brienne was legit & with her being a fan of queen Visenya Targaryen like she told Tywin she should’ve been more open to Daenerys. They definitely ruined what could’ve been a great political conflict in favor of a cat fight fuck dumb & dumber I will never forgive them for ruining GOT!
LOL well I have my own opinions about D&D's completely invented Arya monologue about how cool Visenya is and how most girls are idiots, but unfortunately I guess you're right, given that GoT boiled Arya down to "badass girl who loves fighting" rather than the "girl who has been horrifically traumatized by war and thus would be against anyone who was bringing war to Westeros like Dany" she is in the books, then yes Arya should have been very hyped about the cool dragons and the dragon lady who loves killing people.
@@HillsAliveYT idk if I would say she loves killing people like you said in the video she always tries to avoid bloodshed 1st but will kill when that doesn’t work out
@@tytybaby06 Oh well I definitely don't think she always tries to avoid bloodshed, I mean there are plenty of situations where she could have done a lot more to find a solution to the problems, what I said or at least meant was that she doesn't use violence immediately in all circumstances, but she typically winds up there one way or another. And to be honest, it does seem she loves killing people in a lot of instances, I mean Emilia often seemed to play things off like Dany was quite literally enjoying watching people die horrific, gruesome deaths at her command or her hand.
@@HillsAliveYT I guess we can agree to disagree Ramsay, Joffrey, Cersei, & Arya & the hound loved killing people. Even Sansa found joy in watching Ramsay get eaten by his own dogs. The only arguable instance was maybe her brother but he was abusive & threatened to let 40k men & their horses rape her & threatened to kill her unborn child.
All of this would be valid IF the world of Westeros had actually been based on self-determination up to this point. Under Lannister rule, nobody had any self-determination whatsoever. If you recall, that's why the Lannisters went to war with Robb Stark and then murdered his family at the Red Wedding. Under Baratheon rule, nobody had any self-determination. And finally, it ignores Cersei Lannister having blown up the equivalent of the Vatican in season 6, murdering all of her political opponents in the process along with multiple Great Houses and thousands of small folk-- with absolutely NO consequences. So when Daenerys arrives in Westeros as a liberator, regardless of how anyone else sees her, to claim that anyone's will was a factor on that continent with Cersei running everything is to skate right past an entire chunk of the story as if it doesn't exist.
While I agree with 95% of what this is hinting at: the missed nuance in the TV show about political power and the missed opportunity to showcase that in the disagreement between Sansa & Daenerys, I get confused when we veer off into "will of the people"? I have to ask - which people and when exactly are we referencing their will as an arguing point in favour of one character over another. Let's start with the example used here - were lowborn people in that room when Jon as selected as the King in the North? Or was it mostly Lords, landed knights and hedge knights? Do they truly represent the will of the people? Who decided that Sansa had a right to rule that superseded Jon's right such that she had a claim to press? Was it not her birthright? The very birthright that led her to engage the knights of the Vale to help topple Ramsay? I think whenever we get to Daenerys, we begin to import out of book notions about power and rulership. Daenerys feels she is entitled to Westeros in the same way Sansa believes Ned's children, including her, have a right to the North - by virtue of their birthrights. I think it's way more interesting even in defence of Sansa, when we begin to analyse and critique the ways in which she is very much a part of the very system that produces Tywin, Cersei and Littlefinger and acknowledge how much of their modes of thinking she has adopted. If Daenerys is not purely a heroine, then Sansa is not purely a victim or defender of the North. She, by season 6, becomes just as much invested in power as everyone else even if she has a better "right" to it. Contrasting those claims of the right to rule in all dynamics, including Sansa vs Daenerys, is what makes ASOIAF interesting.
Both Dany and Sansa are my favourite heroines。I absolutely hate how dirty S8 made their relationship dynamics into some sort of cheap and petty rivalry。I've read many well-written fanfictions on AO3 that made them both felt more grey，nuanced，and complex instead of just a political (and love) rival。
what if someone like the threeeyed raven took both Dany and Sansa's hands and green saw with them .Each girl saw what the other went through.Would they then bonded as fellow survivors?
I would really like to see as sansa reclaims her power and identity, to regain some of her warging abilities, as part of her taking back what was taken from her
Sansa was set up perfectly in the show (and is being set up in the books) to be a way better Littlefinger and I love it (confession: Littlefinger is my favorite character, bookwise at least). When she had that all black costume upgrade during the finale of whatever season, my waning faith in the show was renewed. But by the next season she reverted to the scared victim again. I so wish the show took the route you outlined here and prey your analysis is right for the books. If they do, I'm calling it now--Sansa will be my favorite charater by series end. I just found your channel and am loving it!
I think "the people didn't want her to rule them" is an oversimplification because it's literally just the north and specifically the nobles. And frankly if Sansa played the part and watched carefully and impartially while Dany showed actual problematic tendencies in Westeros, it would make sense. The real issue is Sansa is bitchy with no real reason. Also she is silent when Jon is elected, but almost immediately begins undermining him in front the nobles. She came across as two faced which I did not like.
"Is literally just the North and specifically the nobles" So? The North doesn't get a say in who rules them then? 🤨 If everyone else is cool with it, that doesn't mean the North has to fall in line? Sansa and the North made it clear they don't even care if Dany wants Westeros, just leave _them_ out of it. But she wanted _them_ too, against their will. "Wait until she does something problematic." That _is_ problematic. Dany from the very start of arriving, was being problematic. Jon even tells them she required him to bend the knee before helping. So they learned Daenerys essentially used the fight against their common enemy as a way to strong arm them into subservience. That _is_ problematic. Sansa later asked Dany about her plans for the North, she even _explicitly_ tells her how the North doesn't want to kneel to anyone but someone of their choice, and Dany willfully rejected their autonomy for her own wants. That _is_ problematic. Dany refusing to let her people or dragon rest even though Sansa tells her they are all tired and could use a reprieve, because _she_ is ready to take her throne, so basically damn everyone else? That _is_ problematic. And that's just a few. "Sansa is bitchy with no real reason." Meanwhile, we clearly get scenes that show us the Northerners aren't happy with Daenerys whatsoever, and it was established multiple times that they wanted to rule themselves. House Glover even backed out and went home because Jon gave their crown to Daenerys. Sansa wasn't speaking for herself alone, she was embodying the will and voice of her people. Sansa "undermining" Jon was literally just her speaking up about the dangers of potential decisions, like _anyone else_ in that room. I find it funny how everyone else is allowed to speak, but Sansa has to just sit there and look pretty. She is the Lady of Winterfell, her voice is just as deserving to be heard as anyone's. Even _more_ so in some regards. Jon made a decision that could impact himself and his own house, because it had to do with traitors and traitors had harmed them in the past of _course_ she spoke up. She wanted to protect Jon from making a mistake. She wasn't just talking to talk. It's the fact that Sansa has on multiple occasions, fought to _protect_ Jon from making foolish mistakes, but gets treated like she's just a selfish bitch that is so irritating. If one would simply look back and watch the show without such implicit bias, they'd easily see that. Sansa wanted to protect Jon, even if it was from _himself_ . That's why she told him he has to be smarter than Ned and Robert because the decisions they made cost them their lives. Hell, Jon had _just_ been murdered by his own men, because he never saw how his decisions impacted them to the point they'd turn on him, but somehow Sansa is wrong for speaking and offering alternative solutions that the people would back?
@@roseofthegarden_ Ok, so no one said Sansa can't speak her mind, but to speak against her brother's orders/plans in front of his men is wildly disrespectful. She would never have done it with Robb or her father or even her mother. It's about respect. She is his sister she has full access to him, she should have known to speak to him in private. Dany was saving Jon's life before he bent the knee to her. That's how she lost the dragon. She been allowing him to send vital raw materials to the north to help their cause even if in the end it meant nothing. She agreed to help him fight the white walkers BEFORE he bent the knee. Which apparently he told no one, sent no ravens about. THAT is why when she reaches the north she isn't expecting the level of vitriol she encounters. The fact that she is there primarily to help them defeat the white walkers and is the only person who does should mean something but it doesn't. The fact that she never speaks over Jon in public like Sansa does even though she outranks him, would mean something realistically but it doesn't in the show. Dany has proven herself capable of compromise before with Pike and Dorne. She allows and supports their independence so long as they are her allies and Pike stops raping and pillaging. A fact which is conveniently forgotten as well for some reason. In a show where the writers remembered what they wrote, this fact would mean that Sansa had room to negotiate with Dany for independence provided she supported Dany's claim to the throne of Westeros and treated her with actual respect and not a deranged mean girl. Sansa has a right to be cautious, and she has a right to her opinion, but her disrespect towards Jon and to Dany who is showing up to help and is vital to their success and survival is a problem. Season 8 is a problem because they decided that two strong, politically savvy women would only ever end up in a cat fight cause a man was involved and "only one could be Queeeen". Sansa would have been smart enough not to snub an important ally, savvy enough to speak her mind without undermining her brother's authority, and most importantly intelligent enough to suggest the MOST BASIC solution to the entire situation which is a marriage alliance between Dany and Jon. Which would have the north and south unite as equals. Which fyi is what Dorne did in the first Targaryen conquest. So yeah.
@@AoibheannStateira On the opposite end of this argument, why didn’t Jon come to her before he gathered the Lords of the North together in the great hall to speak about such important matters? If you want to speak about respect, let’s talk about how _Jon_ lacks respect for _Sansa_ . It has been shown over and over since she got back to him, that Jon does not respect Sansa enough to ever confide in her. She’s had to constantly go to him, and remind him that her opinion holds weight. Sansa even notes in s7 that Jon has never asked her opinion, so of course he didn’t tell her he bent the knee to Daenerys. And even after Jon makes that decision and Sansa talks to him about how dangerous it is to make decisions that could harm him and he needs to be smarter than Ned and Rob were, he says “and how should I be smarter? By listening to _you_ ?” He doesn’t respect her voice. She’s just his little sister to him and someone who he was never close to at that. He cares about her, loves her even. But the respect for her as an individual with something vital to say doesn’t exist. Sansa has always had to be the one to step up and remind him “look, I may have some insight too, why not talk to me?” She shouldn’t _have_ to do that. She’s the Lady of Winterfell, her voice should _matter_ to him. But he consistently makes decisions without her, he left her blindsided and people just get mad at _her_ and say “ _she_ should’ve said something in private” but how was she supposed to do this, when she had no idea what he was even going to do? Essentially, people are saying he should be able to continue ignoring her and her requests to be included, make decisions without consulting her that effectively blindside her every time and her only option is to sit there, nod and agree and then once again beg him behind the scenes to include her, only for him not to do so. It’s always Sansa doesn’t respect Jon because of this, but at what point are we going to talk about _Jon’s_ lack of respect for _Sansa_ , that even led to her making these choices? I understand Dany lost her dragon and all of that. Frankly, I think the wight hunt was stupid anyway and Tyrion once again suggested a terrible plan that got them in that mess. Jon didn’t need to bend the knee for that though. Dany _already agreed_ to help. He bent the knee because _he_ wanted to, once again ignoring the wishes of literally anyone else in his Kingdom, in order to do what he wanted. Not a shocker, as Sansa said “he never asked my opinion, why would he start now?” And yes, like I said, she did agree already, and Jon didn’t tell them this in the North, and in fact in S8 he specifically gets up in front of everyone and tells them that he had to choose between the North being saved and his crown. This was a lie. He lied and essentially told his people Dany wouldn’t help unless he gave up the North first, and Dany sat there and let him lie on her like that. (bad writing, what sense did this make? None.) We as the watchers know the truth, but the characters only know the info they have been given. So in the North’s eyes, Jon was strongarmed into giving up his kingdom so Dany would come help fight in a war that was _equally_ beneficial to _her_ safety. So to _them_ she _used_ this war against the dead to her benefit to gain more power, rather than coming to help on equal grounds as _allies_ . To me, this is just another example of D&D’s bad writing, but this is also why I don’t think it’s fair to blame the North for being so upset. They’re only working off the info they had. This is also why Sansa in episode 1, asks Jon behind closed doors “did you _really_ bend the knee to ‘save the north,’ or because you love her?” Sansa clocked Jon’s lie in that room. Jon lied to his people, and to Sansa that is a red flag. Jon gave up his crown to Daenerys out of emotion. This is why in Episode 2, when Sansa tells Dany that Jon loves her and Dany asks if that bothers her, she says “men do stupid things for women, they’re easily manipulated.” She believes Jon’s feelings for Dany compromised him, and that he was manipulated into giving up his crown to her. Dany responds trying to tell Sansa she came there for Jon when originally she only knew the goal of getting the iron throne and going to war with the family that destroyed her family and almost destroyed Sansa’s. But when Sansa mentioned the home (the North) that this same family Dany is trying to take out also took from them, how the North fought to keep their home for themselves and rule themselves, and she inquired what Dany would do about their independence afterward, she notably frowned and moved her hand away from Sansa’s. She didn’t agree with them being independent. Dany was going to be an intentional obstacle that the same family they are currently fighting against (the Lannisters) have been. Even though narratively, what sense does it make? Jon is a trustworthy man who she claims to love. It’s one thing to seek the iron throne from Cersei so the rest of the kingdoms have a decent ruler, but the North already _has_ one in Jon as far as Dany sees. She said she loves and trusts Jon, and he’s faithful to his word. So in what world would she _need_ to keep the North from being independent? There was no need for it. I honestly thought Dany would rule the 6 kingdoms and the North would be independent and Dany would have understood that she didn’t need to have them in the fold to trust they’d not act against her. Jon would be trustworthy and they really don’t care about the iron throne. She had nothing to worry about with the North, they were even going to _help_ her get the 6 kingdoms! All they asked in return is to give _them_ independence afterward. And let’s remember that the Night King and his wights weren’t simply a Northern issue. It was _everyone’s_ . Daenerys lending her aid was _vital_ to the survival of _everyone_ around the world, _not_ just the North. It was said over and over that they needed _each other_ in order to survive. I _agree_ with you that S8 was a mess for a multitude of reasons, but especially because it watered down the understandable conflict between Dany and Sansa. Sansa in a good writers hands, wouldn’t have been so openly hostile, she would’ve navigated the situation subtly and with a keen observation. And I thought Dany would come there with a more open mind, an understanding of the Northern plight and why they’d be the way they are, given everything she learned from Jon. Frankly, I think Dany should’ve rejected Jon’s knee bend after seeing the wights for herself, and losing her dragon. She should've told him this war was bigger than a throne right now and she wanted to help to avenge her child and save human lives. That would’ve been a huge showing of good will. Imagine them thinking Jon was going to go there and either die or submit to having the North taken, and instead he came back with an army _and_ his crown? The North would have nothing to say. Perhaps they still would be wary toward her because it makes sense to be wary, but they’d certainly have been less hostile knowing she had 2 dragons and a large army and yet still chose to come North to help for the good of everyone and _not_ only after a crown was placed on her head without their knowledge or approval. That would’ve gone a long way with them, and I think earlier seasons Dany would have done this. Imagine how much better it would have been if Dany came there as an ally alone, _not_ as their Queen, and the North and Dany fought side by side against the enemies of the North in the Long Night, and then fought again side by side to take out the enemies of the South with Cersei, and in the end, they saved all of Westeros from two terrible fates, so in the end they are officially made independent while she ascends to rule the rest of the Kingdoms? I even thought a nice touch would've been Dany asking Sansa for advice against Cersei, since she knows her better than anyone there, and we see how her knowledge aids in Dany taking out their final threat. That’s how I thought it would end because it made sense to me that they’d both win in the end after taking losses so long. But since they decided to make Dany unreasonable, and Sansa lose her political savviness in exchange for blatant, public snark for drama sake, this ending happened.
@@roseofthegarden_ sorry but this is bs. When the iron islands and the other kingdoms rebelled, they got put down. You can’t be independent and at the same time ask someone else for help, it makes no sense. It would be like forcefully moving out of you parents home then begging them for help when you struggle to make rent
@@hamzahussain1622 Except they _can_ . Because the North wasn't asking Dany to help come take out just any old threat. The white walker threat, the Long Night? It was quite literally an _extinction event_ that would've _wiped out_ humanity as a _whole_ . The North doesn't _need_ to bend the knee for Dany to be sensible enough to aid in saving the world. She is in fact part of that world and _will die_ if she doesn't. Not to mention it was stated that it wasn't just the North who needed Dany. But Dany _also_ needed _them_ . It was one of the _first_ things Jon told her. We need _each other_ . Her reward for helping and winning, is her _life_ .
Gurl preach. I didn't get the cattiness and it was cheap. The potential of it was fascinating. Thanks for the vid! I like that you compare the book characters to the show characters. I personally liked film Danny over book Danny. Which is why her "shock value twist ending" of really taking things by fire fell flat to me. It didn't seem like her. But the showrunners were in a hurry to finish the show when they could have taken at least one more season to get there, if that was the story they were trying to tell. Danny for hard power and Sansa for soft power and them being the best players of the Game of Thrones and two women at that, was rather empowering for me to watch. But no. That potential was squandered again because the showrunners were in a hurry.
Sorry but I didn't like Sansa. Especially in seasons 7 and 8 but that's how D&D wrote her. I did like her story arc and how she learned from all the terrible ppl around her though. They should have left Jayne Poole in the story (among many other things) but they had to have Sansa getting raped for shock value.
