Seeing those indicators staying right on the point is highly satisfying; you know that you can rely on your machine, no bad surprise from that point. Thanks for that video!
Great, informative video, Keith. I recently got a great deal on a 14” rotary table, so have to move my vise for the first time since installing and last tramming it two years ago. This video will prove very useful. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and insights.
Very nice video. Re-enforced what I know, and showed me a couple of small things I didn't. Very nicely done and well worth the time to view for any machinist, gunsmith, or even home hobbyist.
For those who have a boring head for their mill, it's simple to make a bar to hold your indicator. Then you can tram the mill's head with that. It's maybe a bit slower because you have to go back and forth between sides, but it's still only a few minutes to get it dialed in.
Most of my work is done in my 6 inch Kurt vise so I use the cylinder square on the bottom of the vise ways to tram the mill head in both directions. Thanks for making the video. Have fun making chips.
Thank you Keith, I learned how to tram a vise, i have always had trouble and I had both bolts loose and you only had one side loose. Great video have enjoyed all of them and you have a great shop. Again thank you for all the teaching you do.
Thanks for the video. Just what I needed to learn how to use the very similar two-dial-indicator setup I ended up with for my new-to-me FTV2 Lagun. Got both axes to within a half a thou. I think the machine and my eyes are both not up to much more. Thanks much. One small constructive criticism -- I'm so new to this that the third part on the vise setup wasn't enough to help me, as it didn't have any close ups to show just where the indicator was touching, nor what kind of indicator it is and how it is set up. Probably should be obvious, but then again, maybe not for someone new enough to need such a video. Thanks for getting me most of the way there.
Hey Keith Love the Videos, keep them coming, I am a Newbie to all this Maching stuff and appreciate all your work and knowledge you share. I don't ever comment because you will have many many things to read, how ever I have to say that all the tramming should be done with the tables locked, at least on my Older Mill it makes a big difference. And oh yea I have the same disease you have I just brought home my new (old) Monarch Lathe so I guess I can join the Monarch club with you and Adam Etc. Thanks again for all you videos and dedicated work
I would have to disagree with you on locking the table. If you machine with the table locked, I could understand. But you should have the table in the same conditions as you machine. This is my opinion though as I've been machining for 30+ years. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
First time attemping to tram a mill, my Grizzly G-8689 Mini-Mill... No "nod" adjustment, but, went ahead with the table length. Couldn't get the Mitutoyo 0.0001" dial to repeat during adjustments... Finally checked the indicator... the four case back screws were loose. Easy after fixing that!
you could measure to a pair of paralels set on the table so as not to measure and adjust any minute ding in the table. good tool to have though, i also like the cylinder square, that would not mueasure slight dings because of the large base
I wonder if perhaps the minor error on the cylinder square may be due to the "first" check done with the head nodded forward, as the square might not have been flat to the highest point. Rechecking the first measurement once setting the second measurement may have also show the error once the nod was straightened up by your second alignment operation
I had a costly lesson about tramming last month. I also used a last word on my vise and I also used a mallet to tap it into alignment, with the indicator making contact with the jaw view. After a while the indicator was moving unpredictably. Now I pull the indicator away from the surface before tapping. I assume that it was the vibration that trashed a pricey gauge.
You can check correctness of your square cylinder by tramming your head some other way (by sweeping the indicator across the table for instance). Then place the cylinder on the table, attach the indicator to quill and sweep the cylinder by moving the quill.
A word from the old and wise, make sure the bed rails are slick clean before traming! That one sliver of a spec can mess everything up, a good indication of specs on the slide rails is when your needle jumps when it is sliding. Rails might look clean, but there are spots you can’t see until you remove the bed from the rails.
Use a gauge block instead of a magnet (more precise) and you should also take at least a .100 revolution one full turn or a little more on you indicator which will give you more travel when checking and have the dial zero at the top of the indicator (easy to read). These tools are very easy to use and you can buy or make one in your own shop.
had a few times it took 10 times or so cross the jaw till I got it. most times its end to end and back to check. within .001 also I like that dro its like the sony packed with confusing feature's thats how I like em .cant wait to see the metal planer again hope you found some interesting history I'm sure its got a story
Keith, tramming the mill with that double dti gauge or even if with a single dti I would tighten (lock up) the quill and knee each time after making an adjustment especially on an old machine, just to make sure of any errors Edmund...........Alberta
Keith Did you use the Spindle Square to chech ig the vise is square to the table ( and thus square to the head) as well. most folks just seem to assume the vise when installed is square to the table, which is a bad assumption to make. Once the vise is trammed in all 3 axis, then you know all is right with the world. And don't forget, re-tram the vise when replacing the jaws John
@KeithRucker thanx for sharing,your gib video inspired me to check my mill. I found it was out a bit now it is right on zero sweet. thanx to the whole gang on RU-vid. metal tips and tricks a bomb Keith Rucker turn Wright machine works mr. Pete 222 Bar Z Bash I've left some out thanks everybody
Good stuff. One of the issues you'll likely find is that the quill has some play in the head and how tight you lock the quill makes a difference in squareness.. It might have been interesting to try different parts of the table to see if squareness changes. Also you could have on indicator point sitting in a dimple that would throw off the reading.
I have an precision 6" square with a bevel edge I use to get the head close then sweep a 6" radius on the table with an Indicol. Also, I use piece of flat and parallel ground stock that I can slide around the table to indicate on. Tables are a bit too rough for the indicator to get an accurate reading. I don't care for this "Spindle Square" method. They have to be calibrated each time and they don't sweep a large enough circle for my liking. Someone sales a tramming fixture that rest on the table and straddles the vice so you can check the head without removing the vice. It's basically a ground flat ring with four legs. '
I guess I'm a little different. Wherever I worked if a little additional accuracy was possible, that's where I tended to go. When I worked for the Air Force I always worked to get something like the power supply parameters exact. My contention was that accuracy would make the equipment more reliable, and I was proven to be correct.
If you are going to tip the head at an angle to drill a hole in a part, you have to tram the head to the tee slots or the hole will come out in the wrong place. No one ever thinks about the head swiveling on the base.
Rotate cylinder square, side first, 0 - 90 - 180 - 270 degrees, you will see any taper, I know I know, but slight as it is still possible. After that adjustment then do the front. Table true is another problem. Cheers
You know, when we had the scraping class a month or two ago, we used the mill as a lesson on adjusting gibbs and such so it is about as good as it will get without re-scraping the whole machine (which it probably needs).
8:00 how square is the tool to the shaft... That is what I wonder. I believe you should have flipped it again to confirm each dial is giving you the. Same reading... Never forget that you MUST check each dial to confirm how accurate each dial gauge is (within the travel you ask of it)... Again, flip each one around to confirm each are equal...
Just finished re-tramming mine with a similar dual indicator system. New mill...way out of alignment. Here is a suggestion, if you are way off like you were before you used the cylinder, do a gross adjustment by touching the indicators off the table first. If you are way off you can get lost in the number of spins on the indicator (I know the little dial is there - but can still be confusing).
Keith, I love your videos. How do you know the table is coplanar? Would this method be more accurate if you indicated off of a parallel block so that you were averaging out any imperfections in the table - just like you used to check your hand scraping with an indicator?
Yes. This was incomplete demonstration. He should check table flatness, stone any burrs. If it's still not OK, "average out" by using parallel or something like that. Same with vice jaws (if there's a wear, indicate big parallel, not jaws directly).
You can achieve the same result with an accurate combination square as with a cylinder square. I don't see the need or added expense of using 2 indicators, they aren't far enough apart to span across a vice on the X axis. All this gadget does is eliminate the need to sweep the table.
I have used a combination square as well, but I much prefer the cylinder square. The magnetic base is much easier to deal with as the square will not fall over. Also, because you have a cylinder that your are working off of you don't have to fuss with making sure that the edge of the square is square to the column.
I’m amused at how few times I’ve seen a U Tube Machinist use the box end of a combination wrench. From an early age I was always taught if you need to get it tight or break a hard one lose you should use the box end to prevent slippage and or rounding over the head. To the best of my recollection I’ve only watched a U Tube Machinist use the box end one time! Although in all those episodes I’ve not seen one misshape so it seems there was no need to use the box end. When it comes to the final tightening or loosening I always use the box end, just my way of doing things, I guess…
I use the box end a lot. Sometimes, you can't get the box end on the head easily though because of clearance. Such is the case with the nuts on the vise.
I could not agree with you more. But my comments were not aimed at you nor to this particular video but rather to yours and most all other metal working u tube videos in general. I do hope you did not take this as any kind of slant to you but simply a generalization. You are if not the very best u tube machinist to watch, you are on top in my book! I like you videos very much and yours are always the first one I watch! Thank you! Richard
The bottom line is not that that everyone should use the box end, but to not round over the bolt head or nut. My comment was in regard to the fact that on U-Tube I very rarely ever saw the box end of the wrench being used; it's always the open end or other. I did not mean that the box end should always be used, however if there is a chance of rounding over of the head one should use the box end for better distribution of forces.
with 2hich I agreed totally. I too was taught very early on to use a box end/ring spanner or a socket whenever space allowed, open end only if space or lack thereof require it, and a shifter/crescent as a last resort.
The question is how we know the dual indicator tool is accurate? The zeroing method isn’t guaranteed. If the quill has the slightest looseness, it isn’t guaranteed to be correct in zeroing the tool. I don’t see how we can. I use a 9” x 0.500 carbide rod in an accurate collet I reserve for the purpose. Using that against either a B&S master square, or a cylinder square is pretty accurate. That’s a preliminary adjustment. Nothing is perfect. But I still rather use my Interapid tenths indicator and sweep it around a 12” circle for tramming.
Keith. Why didn't you use the magnet as height gage, must have ground height ( .375 ). Now dial in full .375. Then go to other dial. ( same spot ) and go .375. Now both are zero with each other, then both will zero together. Just a thought......Ray
Is there any reason you can't turn the second indactor 180 degrees on the fixture so you don't have to read it from the back after turning the spindle?
15:32 "unlike a lot of people I take my vise on and off the mill machine a lot depending on the job that I'm doing" Well why don't you put it at or near one end of the table and leave it there ? Then that leaves the rest of the table when you're not using the vice and when you are using the vice, you're wearing a different part of the ways !
Keith, Great video as always, but I see something I would like under the flag, is that a Hardinge and if so does it have the quick release cross feed slide, ? Keep your video's rolling,,,👍👍👍👍
Dear Keith, I don't know if you are gone look to my problem, thou I'll hope you do. First, I'm new, always wanted to be a machinist, (I'm a retired printer). I bought a Adcock-shipley (1954) horizontal milling machine + vertical millinghead. I did the tramming in the x and y direction, of the vertical millinghead, as close I could get it, 0,01...mm. * But, now is my question: how can I solve the problem of leaning. When I put a indicator on the foundation of the mill and I travel in the X- direction, I have a difference between the two sides, 0,3mm. And in the Y- direction 0,18mm. Now I have shimmed my vice. I would like to use the horizontal milling more with clamps. But I dare not, I'm afraid my milled parts will not be parallel. I'm I wrong or right? Ps there's no play in the movement. Greetings Lammertyn Mc
The dual indicator setup does not need to be manufactured exactly square side to side. It becomes very "square" when zeroing each indicator to the magnet gauge block as Keith did.
If Sandy will let me I'm going to tram the dining room table in so my gravy will stay on the mashed potatoes. Seriously Keith thanks for the demo, Greg.
Why not just use a dial test indicator on an extension in the spindle to allow you to sweep about a 6" diameter? I've always squared (trammed) the head on Bridgeport mills this way. It only takes a couple minutes with a little practice, without having to purchase 'special equipment' for a routine task. I can square with an indicator faster than you can 'calibrate' that device.
Isn't a cylinder square pretty self-checking though...? Assuming it has a constant diameter along its height (which one could check), rotating it in place 180 degrees and checking the quill again should immediately reveal any non-squareness...
Yes, this is basic check. And it allows you to use worn out cylindrical square. There are also factory made tilted cylindrical squares! But that's another story.
I am a horrifying narrator cannot stand to point the camera at myself but I will do my own video to show that this double indicator thing is not needed and MORE COMPLICATED and risk of error than the normal method! that being said the poster is great guy and appreciate the upload and work--he and others usually gain nothing from their help videos.. then in the comments they almost always are belittled--however this double indicator method is bad bad bad
I can see the magnetic cylinder square being one abused tool by people who dont know what it is! (keep it away from the teenagers and the wife when they want a hammer!) was interesting to see how that spindle square was calibrated, i had been thinking about that since i saw one mentioned and did not work it out in my head!
That Spindle Square is about $85, how much would the cylinder square cost if purchased new today? I googled and found a couple for $500! Both seem like decent methods, but if it means a savings of $400 that Boring tool seems like a no-brainer.
The real advantage to the cylinder square is its faster. But if speeds not a concern then its not money as well spent. FWIW multiple vendors/companies have those squares. See them every now and then in catalogs.
Jusb1066 Cylinder squares are ground to within a couple of 10ths or less both in diameter and perpendicular. A lathe alone wouldn't have the accuracy required.
Jusb1066 To be honest they are not so dificult to replicate, precision ground bar stock is readily available and not too expensive, the hard work is grinding the base perpendicular but the beauty with cylinders is that they are self checking and if you are off a fraction there are always two points, 180 apart that will be square.
No No No. Don't need a square. just put an indicator in a collet in the spindle. rotate spindle and adjust until completely square 360° . making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be. Toolmaker here for 40 years.
@@nevetslleksah there is PLENTY wrong with this double indicator method and notice he did not do the Y--nod--he stopped because had he adjusted it both indicators would have moved the same direction totally counter intuitive. I will do my own video!! The poster is a smart guy however the other person that said this makes something complicated when its not. Its simpler to just use the normal method. The double indicator thing shows you can sell ice to the eskimos another device to get the money of beginners.. another one?--COAX INDICATORS
Maybe I'm missing something, but doesn't that work for the zero setting but when you go to tram the head in aren't you facing the same problem again since the faces are now opposite?
That sound like it would work to me. It is basically the same technique used when replacing a broken bubble level on a carpenter's framing level. When it indicates the same when flipped 180, it is on the money.
Jusb1066 yes but it is difficult to make that discernment on the table during squaring up. Assumed you are not 100% sure the quill is aligned and tip top
