An evil alignment doesn't prevent that. Any non-good character with decent intelligence and/or wisdom (12 or 13 at least) is going to be able to compartmentalize and treat some well and others badly. They have same or similar emotional range and the need for allies.
@@JMOlsen_also, if they see each other as allies, as people worth of their respect and even lovers and precious people, they may be evil to all the others, but be supportive of one another
Never trust evil people, they will discard you the first chance they get. There's no loyalty in evil, that's a virtue, and evil despises it. The evil gods of Faerun and Dnd Lore shows it.
@@amalaspina I found my older recordings of this scene (before patch 6 came out). I picked the same dialogue options there and Shadowheart approved continuing the Rite. Maybe Larian changed her approval in patch 6.
@@trangkieu8974 Uhm, ok... I recorded this scene after patch 6 and Shadowheart disaproves the rite. In my older videos, she approved continuing the ritual... Confusing 😅
I just did this yesterday with the same lineup. *SPOILER* Dark Urge, Chosen of Shar Shadowheart and Minthara. And then I went full Unholy Assassin. I'm bringing all the evil to the end game with me.
Astarion: You'll help me, right? RIGHT? Shadowheart: Ok, I killed the Last Light Inn and my parents for my ascension, you can kill for yours. Minthara: That's almost as cool as Grandma Yvonnel, DO IT! Dark Urge: Hold your horses, we need to say prayer to papa before killing 7K.. ok, I am finished, let's commit genocide! In Bhaal's name! Mephistopheles: Well, in my name, technically, but I guess none of them actually read the contract. Oh well, my new warlock will learn quickly. Ah, he is a cute one, too! How nice, how nice!
@Jaceareenopower granted through a one time payment contract is still being a warlock just because he isn't bound to any rules has nothing to do with it
@Jaceareeno that Astarion, who hasn't actually read the contract in its fullest, knows of. Mephistopheles is an archdevil, there are always terms and conditions, that's their whole shtick.
@@damiannichols1250 no it really isn't. As Astarion said when asked after turning Durge/Tav it was a transaction. It's like when Raphael told Astarion what his scars said, they were simply engaging in a trade, it wasn't a contract for continued services. Technically in my run through, he read the Necormancy of Thane to completion before we faced Cazador, in which the ritual is covered. That combined with him studying up on infernal contracts prior to dealing with Raphael should have covered him knowing what he's talking about. The thing is a warlock continuously is granted power through their devil, there's nothing one time about it, it's Warlock keeps serving, Devil keeps providing. Mephistopeles isn't continuing to grant Astarion anything, his payment was the souls, Astarion's purchase was ascension which made him into a different kind of vampire. What powers he has/develops in that role are because of what he is (which he paid for) not because of Mephistopeles.
i have a whole chart of playthroughs i want to do and this is one of them - absolute evil dark urge and party right now i’m doing dark urge but healthy relationships lmao
If you want to see the real reaction of Minthara and Shadowheart you need to speak with them after the event. This clip only says that they not complain to an Ascended Astarion.
I have mixed feelings about those... it gets weird with Laurien because they will dance between telling us a story (which is what they should be doing), and trying to scold and morally shape the players (which gets in the way of the story). It's kind of like the weird backpedaling they try to do with Cazador once we hit Act III. It's very off putting because on one hand Astarion is continuing along with our original concept of Cazador from the first two acts (for the most part), but then ridiculous notions of him having a favorite spawn, letting the one spawn have his kid along, saying the one of the weirdest (as in out of place) overworld dialogues in the game, where he says 'I've known you for 200 years, isn't that suffering enough?" (as if their relationship in ANY WAY suggested he 'knew' any of his spawn, or related to them in a way this sentiment would make sense). The only motivation for this I can see is, because they very much wanted to push the fake 'cycle of abuse' nonsense, they had to humanize Cazador just a bit to make their relationship seem a little more normal toxic instead of the completely overbearing torture that it was. It's likely also to try to further help blur the distinction between what Cazador went through with his master (who was clearly training him to be a full vampire and take over the family, and therefore punished him to teach him how to survive in vampiric society) and what he put his spawn through (needless senseless torture which he enjoyed). Honestly, I think it's stuff like that, that helps some players forget just how bad Cazador was, and how nothing Astarion does, even in the slightest, hints that he has become him, but regardless... I tend to give more weight to the cutscene if they contradict, as what they say there matches up with what happened in Justicier Shadowheart's arc, and for Minthara, her overall attitude towards power and ambition.
@@saribeepo.o5111 i dont realy get the complain here. Is up to YOU to feel pity as a player or rol character about Cazador history and his spawns. You can even side with him, help or convince Astarion to do certain things either way Acend, reject the power or become a beacon of hope to his kind, etc. There is many solution of the problem. The whole point of the game is that you are mostly the one who pick what moral outcome comes to light in your playtrough and this will link with your interpretations of the event acordanly to your information and insight. What do Cazador to the world if he ascends? What about Astarion? knowing him a little more trough our adventures. Wouldnt be better that to take those resposabilities and end it all before those mad mans take over Baldurs Gate? You cant change at will the morality of other people only yours.
@@Fairbrooke same, I like to go with a melee-fighter to Cazador's but I always go with Minthara because ✨ radiant damage ✨ is so nice, and I never went to the palace with Vlaakith's Lae either (did that route of her only once). Probably going to do a run like that just to see, now I'm curious haha.
I just can't bring myself to ascend him. He deserves it yes but he turns into another Cazador and completely loses who he is. He becomes someone completely different (which I don't like)
I understand your feelings towards Astarion here. It's true, that he becomes a power hungry creature after the ascension. But when it comes to the roleplaying in BG3, I try to play the role I chose at the beginning of the adventure as best as I can (in this case it's an evil dark urge). And this often means, that I have to put my private feelings about the characters aside, if I want to play it well. BG3 is such a great game, that I want to experience and discover it from all sides - good and evil gameplay 🙂
I at first thought I would never ascend Astarion until I realised that deleting a save is like rewinding time or at least undoing an event and making it like it never happened at all. It was easier to ascend him with that point of view I just created two save files in the same campaign called spawn and ascendant
definitely respect the decision, but I disagree with the conclusion. Astarion was always power hungry, and his motivation was always safety and reclaiming what he lost. He always suffered from his insecurities and people seem to forget he (spawn) would lash out at times because of that (examples: when you ask if he's thinking about the ascension he gets sarcastic, when trying to convince the demon Raphael wants killed to kill himself he repeatedly gets on the PCs case for talking to it, instead of just killing it 'already') . AA is no different, he takes such pure joy when he sees his reflection for the first time, it's clear that power still isn't his only draw. There are a few different reasons that I suspect can explain his shift in demeanor, but its a bit extensive. I will, for the time leave it as this, it seems like the big 'he's Cazador 2.0' for many people I've read the comments on are. 1. calls Durge/Tav ''pet', aside from this being a common pet name, he also does call his love pet at least one other time before ascension and it is at a particularly vulnerable moment for him. 2. the 'he believes you are degarding yourself if you stay with him' on the wisdom check... but putting aside the knee jerk reaction, when we consider what that line is actually saying.. its actually a revelation about his insecurities about himself. He thinks that the PC is better without him, that being with him makes them less.
@@saribeepo.o5111 so it's not just me who saw the "he thinks you're degrading yourself being with him" and thinking but this Tav does NOT think she's degrading herself being with him? Just because Astarion thinks something doesn't make it true. If I'm roleplaying a Tav that does think she's degrading herself being with him then she breaks up or doesn't ascend him. It really depends on what type of Tav I'm roleplaying
@@kairaaitken938 nope not just you. I hope there's quite a few people that take exception to this, and if you notice there is something rather unusual in this instance. The main thing, as you pointed out. The narrator is used to assert something she has no business asserting because it's an unknown. In this case how Tav/Durge views the relationship. (There is at least one other case of this involving Durge submitting to Bhaal) The other involves a missing choice. Usually when we successfully get added insight on another character's thoughts, we are rewarded an additional response option. Basically, we get a chance to use it to better shape the outcome of the exchange. In this case we get no added options, it's just there to indicate that whatever happens is a result of our 'poor' choices, and to encourage people to interpret Astarion in a particular way, contrary to what we actually see him do.
I’ll be honest, astarion is one of the 3 companions that are the least likely to ever get into the party for any playthrough, but his 1d10 necrotic dmg bonus is pretty tempting 😂
Something is off.. Cazador doesn't have the tattoos, so in performing the ritual, he ascends. Astarion has the tattoos, perform the ritual & ascends. Why no repercussions for those that wear the mark of ascending? He isn't sublimated simply because says the words? But he has the tattoos..
Ascension. Those souls are sent to the archdevil Mephistopheles in hell and some of those souls are innocent children Sure the vampire spawn will likely kill some innocents in their ravenous hunger from being starved, but at least their victims souls will most likely go to a better afterlife Whereas with ascension they go to hell including the Gur children It is the biggest act of evil possible to roleplay in this game. Worse than raiding the grove ( at least the tiefling victims in the grove raid won't go to hell when goblins kill them ) The Dungeon Master's Guide on p. 24 describes what happens after someone dies: “its soul departs the Material Plane, travels through the Astral Plane, and goes to abide on the plane where the creature's deity resides. If the creature didn't worship a deity, its soul departs to the plane corresponding to its alignment But because of the deal with Mephistopheles that won't happen There is an option to not ascend Astarion but then kill the spawn. Because they didn't die in the ascension they won't be sent to the Hells which is good I prefer to give them a chance because Astarion got it so why not them? But killing them without ascending Astarion isn't evil. It's just ruthlessly pragmatic. The greater good etc My MC who has a spawn Astarion playthrough isn't a greater good type of person. She just does what is good in the moment rather than what is good in the long run
@@xeticus5435 sure but lesser evil yadiyada If the vampire spawn kill innocents these innocents will go to a better afterlife. If any of them go to the nine Hells then they weren't innocent. Remember these random people aren't being forced to Hell by an infernal ritual. They would have to be straight up scum to go to the nine Hells However the ascension will send innocent children ( remember the Gur children are part of the 7000 ) to Hell as well as innocent adults too So at worse free vampire spawn send innocents to heaven or whatever and scumbags to hell Ascension at worse sends even innocents to hell and while the innocents ( if the spawn are freed option ) who get fed on won't like it the alternative is worse That being said I always ascend and spawn Astarion on my playthroughs. Two saves. Same campaign. One save for Spawnstarion and another save for Ascended Astarion. As it's fiction and nobody truly got hurt, the route that is the most interesting to you narratively is fair. But I'm discussing ascension morality from an in universe point of view here as opposed to a "these are just pixels on a screen" point of view
@@kairaaitken938 If you let the 7k spawn live you'll get a message from Sebastian at the end saying that there was indeed a huge blood feast after they escaped and that they calmed down after to create a safe heaven. It's presented as a good thing but idk man, pretty sure a lot of people got slaughtered in the process...
@@Synthia17 you can stop the ascension and then kill the spawn after using the staff. This causes the spawn to die a normal death that is NOT part of a hell ritual There's nothing wrong with ascending Astarion it's a fictional game. I just don't see any Tav's who ascend him as good and I'm not saying that as a criticism but I'm saying it as my point of view and observation. I just can't see a character who would allow children to be sent to Hell to make their lover more powerful as a good person. Maybe they used to be a good person but after ascension they aren't good anymore, perhaps love corrupted Tav. I could argue for ascending Astarion Tav to have moral greyness ( a grey so dark it's a shade below black ) but what I cannot see this Tav as is good™
