I’m really glad to see you pushing the comparison between 5.56 and 6mm Max because that is the real battle. 6mm Max vs 6mm ARC is not and is a trap that too many people are falling into. If 6mm Max is to have a real chance at success it needs to be a 5.56 replacement not a 6mm ARC replacement. 6mm Max gives you the same capacity, the same durability plus better ballistics than 5.56. It basically gives you everything 5.56 does plus most of what 6mm ARC does without the downsides of 6mm ARC. The fact that the first barrels that are available chambered in 6mm Max are SPR profile barrels might be a misstep. The 10.3”-16” M4 or continuous taper profile barrels would have been better to start with because it frames the argument out of the gate as “6mm Max is the M4 improved”. Having the first barrels available be SPR profile makes too many people think of the 6mm Max vs 6mm ARC comparison and in an “SPR” only role the 6mm ARC might have an edge because of its lighter firing schedule and bullets with a little higher BC. My intent is for my first 6mm Max upper to be a 14.5” URGI improved ;-). Can’t wait until I can get that barrel.
Spot on! After showing the results with the 10.5 I can image spinning on up on a 12.5 or 14.5. Bullet weight would be key but I think this cartridge can fill many roles. Thanks for the comment and thanks for watching.
@@Dexter-nw2fe with an “SPR” the assumption is that you will not be doing mag dumps or full auto bursts hence the “lighter” firing schedule than a regular combat rifle where those would be more common. Think MK12 vs M4 or MK18.
We are building our first 6mm Max as i write this. Our first two rifles are 20" barrels on AR15s not battle rifles , our hope is to have long range capabilities with 103 gr. bullets. 1000 yards out to a mile will be a must cant wait to see it perform . As to BC Precision these men are fantastic !! They are very personal i have been called back several times after leaving questions. No Ai booshit no computer recorded booshit . Good old american patriot businesses men !! God bless them , and God bless America
It's always seemed strange to me that all these AR-15 improvement calibers that have come out focus on specifically the long range side of the equation. .224 Valk, 6 ARC, to some degree 6.5 Grendal, sure they perform well at 1000+ yards and that's great. But realistically, if you're going to be hauling around a 20" barrel small frame AR, you're still going to have acceptable performance at 1000 with 77 SMK, and you'll have ammunition commonality with most other rifles used. The biggest advantage and the area where the greatest gains can be had, IMO, is exactly what you're showcasing here. The capacity for a compact, lightweight, suppressed SBR to perform comparably to a 20" 5.56 rifle. A 14.5" or 16" 6.5 CM AR-10 is great for the 1000+ yard ranges before you get to bolt gun territory. The real niche for 6 MAX that I think it does phenomenally at is acting as a direct 1 to 1 replacement for 5.56, doing everything a 5.56 rifle can do, but better, smaller, and more accurately.
77gr 5.56 is already pretty anemic at 400yds, let alone 600-1000yds. You can’t hear or see it hit the steel much of the time out here in the West. On a calm day with no winds, sure, but we don’t get many of those. I have these 12” popper steel targets with heavy bases, but they allow the plates to rock from impact. Even at 300yds, 5.56 doesn’t move them, whereas 6.5 Grendel rocks the plates pretty hard. As you go down in projectile weight, the performance on-target diminishes, even with 6 Dasher. I agree about replacement for 5.56 though. If I could go back in time, I would have had Stoner, Jim Sullivan, and Robert Fremont start out with a case that held more propellant and a bigger bore than .224” for the AR-15, although Fort Benning and the SCHV proponents were looking for .22 cal at really high speeds in the 3400-3600fps region.
@@LRRPFco52 Oh yeah, for shooting steel in particular, .223 kinda sucks. Mass is the major factor there. I just think that when we're accounting for all the things people normally do with a new wonder caliber, from self defense to hunting to military fantasy football, the difference in performance isn't so stark in longer barrel lengths for that to be the selling point for most people. That's what confuses me about the marketing for so many of these calibers, it usually focuses on being able to get that 1000 yard performance from a longer barrel setup. For a lot of people, a carbine length AR-10 would likely be a stronger contender for their time and money if the ~1000 yard space is what they need a setup for. On the other hand, advertise that your 10.3 SBR/"Pistol" can have all the power of your buddies' M16? That'd be enough to sell most people on a new home defense setup even if they didn't feel any pressing need for one. Wholeheartedly agree with your last point. The domestic and international politics regarding the 60's and 70's were a horrible mess that caused a lot of strange decisions with regards to arms adoptions. A lot of the intermediate cartridges suggested around that era had loads of promise, if only they took off. Especially the 6mm and 6.5mm experiments.
@@KeterMalkuth They did the SCHV Rifle submissions in 1957. Army Ordnance Board who developed the M14 had Stoner chasing different engineering studies with larger cases in the AR-15 to keep him chasing his tail while they pushed the throttle on trying to get the M-14 standardized and adopted before anyone else could see the AR-15. Those slightly-larger cartridge designs would have been similar to some of the chamberings we've seen over the past 20 years in the AR-15.
Oh heck yes! Love this content! I went (not related comment) into Cabelas a couple days ago and saw H4350 for sale at $65/lb. That makes my 6.5C cost about .$83/round. Any cartridge I own has to be reloadable to keep the cost down. I love the 6max performance. What a great time to be a gun nut!!
You aint kidding. I was expecting it to be frisky. Wasn't disappointed. Imagine popping that off in a hallway on full auto... Even ear pro isn't going to save you from that thing.
@@Caoimhin777 That's all Hornady Doppler Radar data for the 103gr ELD-X showing supersonic reach, drop and drift for each barrel length. The speeds remind me of 123gr 6.5mm in Grendel, which has more ft-lbs of energy on-target. One difference is 20" Grendel is typically around 2550fps mv with 123gr, but will do 2700-2820fps with 107gr. My 12" Grendel does 2698fps avg with 90gr and 2400fps with 120gr Federal Match so I've been realizing that CQB-capable/LR Mini Carbine/Pistol concept since 2017. I shoot a lot of 123gr ELD-M from the 12" at 400-800yds, and the 110gr PPU I've taken out to 900yds with a shocking 1st-round hit. You can have better performance than a 20" 5.56 from 10.5" Grendel, mainly because you have 35-36gr of internal case volume with a more efficient, short powder column and 30° shoulder.
Exactly! Always having a sling that isn't dangling or getting caught up on the things is really nice. I have tried the ranger bands and they do work well but the VTAC sling just makes it perfect.
I got bit on the 6mm calibers 30+ years ago! When I saw the 6mm MAX, I liked it more than the 6mmARC. I use it to hunt coyote out to 200 yards. I don't need a gun for any further than 250 yards. Many times, I use a pistol for the close in shots. This kind of hunting requires a shorter BBL with as much weight near the stock as possible. Many people don't understand the balance, and how the center of gravity should be behind the trigger. Long BBL ARs are great for shooting the ground!
did the math for m855a1 out of a 6" barrel, based off pressure and BC it'll be getting roughly 2200fps at muzzle with a 62gr projectile, and would fall below the 1900fps threshold for fragmentation within about 100 yards... LOL!
One of the coolest rifles I ever had was a 6.5 Grendel in a 12" package. At 1000yds it only had like 53" of drop......not to bad for a shorty/commando rig.
6MAX looks freaking awesome . I'll more than likely build out 13.7" in the future . It would be freaking sick if 13.7 6Max could get 2900 FPS with 77g bullet . I absolutely love the 6ARC . I have 14.5" that's served me very well . I have not Chrono it in a while . Last time I did I got 2505 FPS with Black 105g BTHP. I'd love to see 90g - 105g velocity on 6max . I just wanna see how it compares to the 6ARC .
It’s about 50-100fps slower with the 100-105gr bullets. An 18” ARC will shoot some of the upper end 24” 6mm Max speeds, but the lighter bullets are really fast in 6mm Max where it might overlap with ARC.
I wanna see the short barrel velocities for something like an 80 grain 6max. I feel like that gets you into some ballistic coefficients that would be really impressive and probably still have respectable velocity
Picatinny isn't gone man...Centurion sells nice hand guards with them (not to mention they're super nice and appreciative of your business) and I even picked one up some time ago from Midwest Industries. I actually prefer picatinny. M-Lok drives me nuts because the slots always end up being over the gas block where I want an accessory and it ends up making contact.
XRING, That suppressor wrap has a unique wire retention to it. Where did you get that? Also, I am a big fan of 6MAX. It has way many advantages over the 6ARC. Hopefully it will get the marketing hype Hornady is capable of. Great Video!
Hello Ray... Did you say in another session that the 6Max uses 6.8 mags... I am convinced in the Max for my usage! Be in touch... Awesome display my friend! Respectfully, Seth
2:10 You caught hate over the LWRC?? I remember that video. In fact, yours and a couple of other youtubers videos on Lwrc products are why I bought my fist LWRC a 10.5" IC-A5 SIX8 in 6.8spc. ... but I did not stop there, I own a 16-inch IC-DI and an LWRC SMG 45, and that is it for my LWRC guns, but yeah, i started looking at them orginally because of your video. So, no hate from me, only thanks! My wallet hates you, tho! Hahaha! They are not cheap!
I want to love 6mm max, it seems to solve a lot of the problems ARC has in an ar. My only concern is I still want to run 103 and 105 grain projectiles. I heard rumors about 103s velocity out of a 24” but nothing confirmed and nothing in more reasonable barrel lengths. Have you done any velocity testing with heavier projectiles with your mk18?
Seems like a cool round but I’ll never understand why the 5.56 necked up to 6mm never gained much popularity. I think it only has a couple less grains water capacity than 6max and obviously it would be trivially easy to reload for
i've got a couple hog guns with thermals on them in 6.8spc. i could see switching over to 6max on those guns. definitely not going with 6arc after it became clear that hornady thought it was completely acceptable to bait n switch everybody with their 7prc ammo.
Thanks for dropping this video, lots of great info on the capabilities of 6max. This is my next build, but probably in 11.5 Couple of questions. 1. 100 yard grouping size for factory ammo? 2. If I am doing 11.5 would mid length be the way to go? 3. Proper Gas port size?
You won’t see shorter barrels yet without getting custom barrel. Only 16. 18, and 20 available so far as far as I know. Factory loads I was getting 0.94 to 1.2 moa size groups with average of 1.146 from 10 groups of 15 rounds with 90g and 105g with my ability to shoot. Found 90g factory loads were slightly more accurate in my 18in gun. I know a better shooter with tuned gun can get better. It takes standard 0.750 gas block.
I carried an 8” AR in 5.56 or a 9mm AR with a 5.5” barrel for 12 years doing protection detail in and out of vehicles and buildings all the time. Velocity becomes a non issue when the rifle is too large to carry on you and have it in play as fast as you can draw a sidearm. No Hollywood vertical grip just a light and a 1x ACOG and sling; nothing points faster than something you can wrap your hand around. The PCC is the perfect home defense and vehicle gun, especially in an urban environment where long shots are unlikely. Would I like one in 6mm, sure but I’m very acclimated to what I have and ammunition to remain proficient is $.25 or less per round if you buy in bulk.
That’s awesome m. On a sod only. I had never ever ran a vertical grip on an AR until Kyle Lamb showed me why you wanted one. There me are some techniques that really justified having one on a rifle. The pros definitely outweighed the cons.
Why is it that a rifleman told me that the lowest a shooter can go for long-range marksmanship is .270? Why do the Germans prefer a hot 8mm out of a 22-inch barrel?
That’s quite interesting. I guess it depends on what you consider long range. In PRS competition there really isn’t anyone shooting anything bigger than .264 with the majority of shooters using the .243. In my opinion, PRS competitors are some of the best true riflemen in the world. 👍🏼
What do you mean 30round mags are only prototypes? Is the 6max not a 6x45 cartridge? Is it not cross compatible with 556/223 mags since it has the same case dimensions like how 300blackout is cross compatible? I thought that was a thing and one of the original draws of this cartridge when announced?
@@codyboland8109 ahhhh thats good to know i got this 6mm max confused with the 6x45 cartridge which has almost identicle performance and slug weights but it uses a 223 parent case thats necked up which allows any 223 or 556 mags abd all other parts bar the barrel cross compatible with 223/556 ar15 type platforms and magazines Man that sucks it would of been great if it was cross compatible i was hoping i could use my 60round quadstack 223 ar mags with this but i guess not 😢 that other 6x45 is more of a niche wildcat round people handload and which has like 3 different names i got all excited thinking 6mm max was a companys standardization of the round to make it avliable at stores. Like mom said if it sounds to good to be true it probably is
6 Max uses slower burning powder that needs a longer barrel to prevent a fireball from coming out of the end of the barrel. It might run fine, but the military could never use it because it would give away a soldier's position. This is why Sig developed higher-pressure rounds. Not for superior performance, which would require a more significant case that could hold more powder. The higher pressures permit faster-burning powders, ideal for shorter barrels like the 13" the military is using. Comparing the 6.8x51 to the 7.62x51 will never significantly improve because the case capacities to bullet weight ratio are close. However, a 308 from an 8-13" barrel will have the same flame thrower effect as the 6 Max, where the 80,000 psi .277 Fury will not give away the shooter's position. Combine the extra powder in the 6 Max with the steel base and higher pressure due to the faster burning powders, and you have both increased performance and the ability to utilize a shorter barrel without flames giving away your position.
I kinda wish he had just necked 224 Valkyrie up to 6mm. Ready to go mags and lowers. You’d have to change bolts but all the components are out there and the brass conversion would be super simple
@@RockSolitude I don’t know that I’d say better. It also looks like all those cartridges need weird mags that don’t exist too. 6 Valkyrie would answer all of that
@@RockSolitude it isn't based on a 223 rem case it is a 350 legend case put through a sizing die and given a shoulder with more powder capacity than a 223 rem case.
Hornady made 6mm HAGAR several years ago for some High Power shooters. It's a longer 6x6.8 SPC case pushing 6mm fast. Works from 6.8 mags with 6.8 bolts. But none of them reach the 6.5 Grendel. 100gr ELD-VT beats 6mm ARC, which beats 6mm Max. Nobody has really played with lightweight bullets in 6.5 Grendel either, from short barrels.
Hey Tim, I appreciate it. It is a beautiful area but the only fishing I have done is Trout and bass fishing in the central part of the state. Never tried Muskie fishing .
These rounds run very similar powder charges at very similar velocities. Therefore I would think barrel life will be Similar. For example. Both are within just a few FPS and couple tenths of powder of H4895 and 75VMAX on published data for each. Same for the 87VMAX.
SOLGW has been shipping to dealers and distributors for the last few weeks. I know that Paramount Tactical Solutions had 2 for sale this week. I would think those are already sold.
Mk18 is an actual rifle. It’s the designation given by the Navy to rifles created from the factory to use the 10.3” Close Quarters Battle Receiver. Mk18 is definitely a codified term in the military with specific meaning depending on whether it’s Mod 0 or Mod 1. But we’ve gone on to treat it like a concept in the civilian world.
😂 I love it! This was like a physics class for thugs... That' 6 mm is very impressive... Makes me want 95 grain bullets like I would shoot from a 243 case. Give it a little more oomph
I may have missed this but this requires a different rifle than the 556 right? a different barrel? the round looks scary similar to 556. I def take care in not shooting my 300BLK rounds through my 556 for sure. I am waiting on my 10.5" LWRC 556 to come in stock so they can ship it to me. I opted out going with their 7". going to run it suppressed so that 7" would have been rad too bad I heard so much negativity with the 556 that short like unburnt powder filling up a can making it a grenade hahaha that's what made me choose the 10.5" :D
I’ve got a plethora of 5.56 cans including RC3, have you had any issues with 6mm max through 5.56 cans? I know the very basics about 6mm max and 6mm arc but I’ve been looking into them lately and using the rc3 instead of my polonium k would be neat. I don’t know any of the bullet diameters though and couldn’t find them with a quick google search. I’m assuming the bore in the rc3 is quite forgivable
I don’t normally use 6m through any 5.56 suppressor but I measured the openings in the RC3 and it seemed to me more forgiving on my specific model. I haven’t had any issues but it is not recommended for this application.
LOL. No, but it does look like it. They are the Liberty Suppressor covers. They are probably the most bombproof covers out there. They are costly though.
Im concerned that his trademark is going to keep this round from gaining the market share it could have otherwise gained. Seen this play out so many times.
@@XRING Yea I was referring to the developer. I remember cartridges like 6.5 Grendel and .264 LBC-AR trademark ordeal. Also the 300 Whisper and Blackout. There is a good chace something similar will play out with the 6max. Id love to see this get SAAMI approved and gain wide factory support, it looks like a great cartridge.
Hey sir any chance you can link your video for the LWRC PSD/PDW? I remember watching it a long time ago, 5 plus years and that's how I originally found you, but I can't seem to find it anymore
