No video :(

MMOs Have Better Bosses Than DnD

Подписаться 42 тыс.

Просмотров 2,6 тыс.

50% 1

Games like World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy 14, and ESO are way ahead of us in the DnD and RPG community when it comes to building better boss mechanics. I'll explain how MMOs utilize the concept of counter play to make the kind of satisfying gameplay that we need more of in our TTRPGs. This is how you improve your Role Playing Game Design.
Be mean to me on Twitter: / willsysrefdoc

Опубликовано:

21 авг 2024

Ссылка:

Скачать:

Готовим ссылку...

Добавить в:

Мой плейлист

Посмотреть позже

Комментарии : 24

@sharpienate 2 года назад

Another reason to keep D&D boss mechanics simple and clear is that we are humans using analog means to calculate and enforce immaterial rules. We don't have the luxury of computers that can crunch countless calculations per second and perfectly restrict player actions within bounded software.

@Xararion 2 года назад

Myself and my friend started taking cues from MMO boss design to spice up our bossfights after we just came to conclusion that in most systems any single entity boss will just get automatically action economied into death, leading to relatively quick and dull bossfights, or alternatively slog fights against enemies that are overly difficult to hit and soak attacks like nobody. Nowadays both of us use a variety of telegraphed special attacks on our bosses. I've gotten to habit of giving all my bosses 2 special turns, 1 that always happens first thing on the turn where the enemy performs some manner of callout, telegraph or other action that gives players a clue on what kind of mechanic is coming, and another turn at the very end at initiative 0 where the mechanic actually happens, with most bosses getting an initiative turn with limited actions on their rolled initiative. This has for most part worked well, my players have been engaged in the fights that aren't just punching matches with numbers. So I wholeheartedly agree with the message given in the video, you can add lot to good bossfight to make it memorable by usage of telegraphed attacks. And as long as you are clearly giving players clues on how to deal with the mechanic then if they decide to take damage from it anyway to attack one more time (greeding), then at least you won't feel as bad if they get mauled a bit.

@Detson404 10 месяцев назад

That’s a really good idea. I might steal it!

@vincible7023 Год назад

How would you include damage zones or a similar mechanic in a turn-based game, though? There is no challenge in moving out of the telegraphed attack on your turn so the big hitters end up being an empty threat that are flashier but ultimately boring.

@selkiara1272 8 месяцев назад

I actually did this once or twice, and it comes down to adjusting the philosophy behind the 'Dead Area' zones, and therefore the 'why' of implementing them. In an MMO it is about testing the reflexes of the player, forcing them to move out of the dead zone or face the consequence. This is technically true in our TTRPG example, but with an added benefit for the Boss Monster, and an added challenge for the players. Use your Dead Zones to strategically move the players, and exert field control. Make the area directly in front of the boss into a quicksand pit to discourage a head on head collision, and make the melee hitters consider alternate avenues of attack. Drop a sport of viscous acidic bile in the middle of the boss arena to divide the players, then have adds funnel in from stage left and right. Electrify 1/4 of the field, and do a stun / damage combo to anybody who does not leave the area. Have the electricity deactivate at the push of a button, or the pull of a switch. Sink a section of the map into water, and anybody who falls in needs to climb back up, otherwise they will need to vace the vicious sharks with laser beams who live in the water below. Drop lighting fixtures on the party, then have those lighting fixtures cause fires when they land on the carpet. The players can either put out the fires, or be gradually exposed to more spreading flames. Have nearby tombstones spawn ghosts until the tombstones are broken. I JUST used a variation of this where the ghosts spawn on turn A, and move in a straight line on turn B, and anyone they touched took CON damage. They could not otherwise take any action but to move in a straight line. This forced people to keep an eye on where the ghosts popped up, and put someone on the duty of busting up tombstones to limit the amount of ghosts. Don't do something that is 'Move out of the way or take big damage' on it's own, because it is easy enough to move. It works for MMO's because the input of the players is tailored to that. For a TTRPG it really needs to be a more strategic thing that could be a detriment if they do not puzzle out a solution, or strategize a way to work with the battlefield control the boss is exerting.

@hopeforescape884 2 года назад

"Either they are stunned or they are not, there is no counter play" I have to disagree, you can get abilities to boost saving throws - favored by the gods, arcane deflection, flash of genius, saving face, dark one's own luck, protection of the talisman, lucky to re-roll, etc are all reactive abilities that let you save against stuns and there are others such as bless, emboldening bond, aura of protection, magic resistance, or even the dodge action (if its a dex save) that are preventative against failing saves. That being said I wish there were more abilities like these in the game and more reaction spells/abilities like shield, absorb elements, counterspell, etc.

@selkiara1272 8 месяцев назад

Depending on what the save is against, Counterspell is a good one! Had a recent encounter where the bard challenged my boss to a dance battle. (The boss was a Necrodancer, using bardic necromancy to try to rule the world) The boss lost the dance battle and then tried to cheat by disintegrating the party bard. Paladin used counterspell and then the party pushed the boss' **** in for trying to cheat in an honorable dance duel.

@LegalKimchi 2 года назад

i like this idea! taking notes!

@WilliamSRD 2 года назад

Glad to hear it! Let me know if you come with any cool mechanics!

@Dndditches Год назад

Hmm I dunno. It essentially boils down to grinding down the HP sponge and dnd combat is slow enough as it is. MMOs encourage you to play for long period of time hence they tend to drag out their raids so players feel like they get their moneys worth, but in ttrpg it translates to a long low quality session.

@n0etic_f0x 2 года назад

One fun thing I have done is change your role. I had a sun boss with a sun staff that was vey evocative of the sun and a moonlit mage a homebrew druidic mage who was obviously themed around the moon. The mage had very good mobility, too good in fact and he would often move and let the party take damage just so he could take no damage at all. The solution was obvious, the sun attacks barely hurt the moon mage. In fact, they let the moon mage cast fire spells that while they did little damage to the sun boss they could kill his archers. So the solution is easy, have the moon mage get hit and kill the sun archers, have the rest of the party kill the sun boss. This solved a lot, the moon mage realised he could take damage and in fact, had more than 1HP. He could also not try to hog the spotlight as he could hardly damage the boss if he did his job and this was easily the most important part and the one I think any DM should try and use. He had fun killing the archers, he had fun aiding the group, he had fun *playing his role* and not acting like the game was Skyrim and he as the Dragonborn. So yeah, if you have a spotlight hog as the DM there is a solution, just do not let them do the main task but you must give them a role, it is literally the genre of game you are playing and should be why you are playing it.

@WilliamSRD 2 года назад

This is a great example! And yeah, one of the things I forgot to mention in the video is that it's so crucial to ensure that your fight mechanics always give the players something to do, rather than have phases where players are entirely irrelevant. Your example solves that perfectly!

@deadly_artist Год назад

Number 4 was smooth :)

@sko_psy 2 месяца назад

Sweet advice!

@LutesDice 6 месяцев назад

I couldn't agree more

@chipsalom 2 года назад

Good points. Rules lawyers and ppl who grasp for "RAW" and whatnot and are constantly looking for Sage Advice will revolt, ofc, haha, but I say let them. Having abilities that don't always get explained away by something already existing in mechanics players can find also generates more mystery, thinking... I mean, do we not often see traps and puzzles that players have to figure out quickly that don't have themselves perfectly laid out in advance in DnD sessions? It gets the players looking around their imaginary environment... gets them to interact with more than their book of rules... it immerses them more, basically, lol. To mention CR here, they encountered bosses that were completely homebrewed, not in some Monster Manual and etc., and it really causes the players to run away from the first encounter, look for strategies and try to understand what was going on so they could return prepared and with more understanding IN GAME, not IN BOOK, lol. I'm already hearing players who encounter a boss who is primarily explained as a "necromancer" screaming that, "Necomancers dont have that ability" ;). Nope, they don't. This isn't JUST a necromancer. This is a BOSS with forbidden knowledge you as players will never have acceess to. That is why they are a boss, and you aren't :P.

@selkiara1272 8 месяцев назад

I am playing 5th ed right now. The Big Bad of my setting is a Dark Lord who has been the bad guy since I ran in 3.5. As part of his boss encounter he literally said "Here's one they don't teach you kids anymore!" and used Great Cleave. My rules lawyer pointed out that "Cleave doesn't exist anymore They got rid of it in 5e! He can't do that." and I pointed out that the boss acknowledged that nobody taught that technique nowadays, but he has been doing this a long long time, and picked up a few things over multiple centuries of villainy. He was simply using combat knowledge of a bygone age. Someone else asked if they could learn cleave and I told them if they found a teacher, they could... The party then proceeded to never look for a teacher.

@ServantRules Год назад

Check dungeons and Dragons online aka DDO. Boss/raid fights there merge the ttrpg and mmo mechanics

@supersmily5811 Год назад

D&D doesn't do this because 4e attempted to adapt MMO mechanics into itself poorly, and a game design team that sees a good idea be so universally panned will generally write it off entirely as a bad idea, rather than looking at the actual specific mistakes they made. I know. SEGA does that all the time.

@sebastiansoroczynski9760 Год назад

Yep, I agree. I had a lot of fun with my players when I "rip-offed" some warcraft raid bosses 😁

@selkiara1272 8 месяцев назад

An old campaign I ran back in the 2010s used some of the mechanics from Throne of Thunder and Siege of Orgrimmar, and they were some of the most engaging encounters of the campaign because it gave the party something to do other than just "I dunno, hit him til his big number is a zero." I used the electric paneling from Lei Shen, combined with the sinking floor of the Blood Lizard. And a different encounter with the ballista towers against a dragon. I changed things up because I didn't want to copy / paste, and I wanted it to make more sense for my world. (Lei Shen style room had a robot boss who would heal in the Lightning, and used his shock charges to power an assembly line that could pump out variants of himself to act as adds, for example) Since D&D is more freeform, the party just disabled the machines instead of doing the stance dance around the platform. It made for an entertaining subversion to the fight the encounter was inspired by.

@saboogly 6 месяцев назад

I use mmo bosses in my game lol

@patrickbuckley7259 Год назад

As someone who regularly plays MMORPG's, no, they really don't. Most are heavily scripted and repetative hit point pinata's.

@selkiara1272 8 месяцев назад

That is more a pacing problem than a mechanics one. I find that even bosses who have fun mechanics tend to drag on too long, and you get tired of the mechanics by the fifth go around.