Moon Wars: Sighting vs Calculations? Part 2/2 

in Montreal, many brothers I spoke to who celebrated eid on sunday was because of schedule management. deen has boiled down to convenience if you had local sighting on a weekend and calculation on a weekday, the majority of the supposedly 80% would flip just like that

Maulana Omar Subedar: Salah time is so important that Jibreel came down to Prophet (SM) to show the time line for each Salah.

Sighting vs Calculations ? ===== Sighting the new moon is not the MAIN act of worship in itself, but It is a means to achieve the goal of certainty. Now if the goal of certainty can be achieved by a different and more accurate method, then, following such a method will be as Islamic as sighting the moon with the naked eyes. There is no single verse in the Quran to actually see the Hilal with the naked eye, but the Quran confirms that the Sun and Moon move based on a calculation. ٱلشَّمْسُ وَٱلْقَمَرُ بِحُسْبَانٍ “The sun and the moon move by precise calculations”. (Al-Quran 55: 5) أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّ ٱللَّهَ يُولِجُ ٱلَّيْلَ فِى ٱلنَّهَارِ وَيُولِجُ ٱلنَّهَارَ فِى ٱلَّيْلِ وَسَخَّرَ ٱلشَّمْسَ وَٱلْقَمَرَ كُلٌّ يَجْرِىٓ إِلَىٰٓ أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى وَأَنَّ ٱللَّهَ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ خَبِيرٌ “Do you not see that Allah causes the night to enter the day and causes the day to enter the night and has subjected the sun and the moon, each running [its course] for a specified term, and surely Allah is aware of all you do.” (31: 29) لاَ تَصُومُوا حَتَّى تَرَوُا الْهِلاَلَ وَلاَ تُفْطِرُوا حَتَّى تَرَوْهُ فَإِنْ أُغْمِيَ عَلَيْكُمْ فَاقْدِرُوا لَهُ The Prophet (s) mentioned Ramadan and said, "Do not fast until you see the Moon and do not break the fast until you see it. Estimate it in case it is covered." ( Sahih Muslim 1080a Book 13, Hadith 4, Bukhari, Musnad Ahmad) إِذَا رَأَيْتُمُ الْهِلاَلَ فَصُومُوا وَإِذَا رَأَيْتُمُوهُ فَأَفْطِرُوا فَإِنْ غُمَّ عَلَيْكُمْ فَاقْدُرُوا لَهُ ‏"‏‏" 'When you see the crescent then fast, and when you see it, then stop fasting, and if it is obscured from you , then work it out."-Sunan an-Nasa'i 2120 Gumma (غُمَّ)/Gumiya (غُمِىَ)/Ugmiya (أُغْمِىَ): These terms mean "covered," "veiled," or "concealed" by clouds, dust, fog, or no moon effect due to new moon, preventing the moon from being seen from the earth. The Hadith scholars confirmed that the direct report from Ibn Omar through Imam Malik only contains "Faqdiru Lahu" and does not contain "Akmilu", akmilu was added over time when exchanging the Hadith from person to person. The practice of Ibn Omar also proves this, he used to fast early on doubtful days. (AL-MUWATTA : 18.1.1, 18.1.2, Abu Dawud: Book of fasting, 2312) Mutarrif ibn `Abdullah, Ibn Suraij, and Ibn Qutaibah interpreted them as demanding the use of astronomical calculations when the horizon is covered. Abdul-Karim ibn Hawazan Al-Qushairy "the calculations to confirm the month of Ramadan if it was cloudy. It being covered was a genuine Islamic reason to accept the calculations" - [Ihkam al-Ahkam Sharh `Umdat al-Ahkam. Matba`ah as-Sunnah al-Muhammadiyyah.] Mutarrif ibn `Abdullah, Ibn Suraij, and Ibn Qutaibah interpreted them as demanding the use of astronomical calculations when the horizon is covered. Imam Ahamad also has similar opinion. Also, the same word "Faqdiru Lahu" used in a hadith related to the time of coming of the Dajjal, to calculate prayer time,when a day is too long. قُلْنَا يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ فَذَلِكَ الْيَوْمُ الَّذِي كَسَنَةٍ تَكْفِينَا فِيهِ صَلاَةُ يَوْمٍ قَالَ ‏"‏ فَاقْدُرُوا لَهُ قَدْرًا ‏"‏ “That day which is like a year, will the prayers of one day suffice us?' He said: 'Make an estimate of time (and then observe prayer).” - [Sunan Ibn Majah Hadith 4075, Riyad as-Salihin - Hadith 1808] Taqiyyu d-Dīn as-Subkī recommended calculation for rejecting the fake Hilal sighting reports, years ago “Calculation provides certain and confirmed information, while testimony based on sightings provides only probable information. What is probable cannot counterbalance what is certain, let alone be preferred to it. Evidence is accepted only if what is testified for is possible physically, logically and legally. If we assume that calculation indicates with certainty the impossibility of sighting, then a testimony of sighting must be rejected because it testifies to what is impossible. Islamic law does not make impossible requirements.” (Source: ḫaṭīb aš-Širbīnī, Muġni l-Muḥtāǧ, 2/143, Dāru l-Kutubi l-ʿIlmiyya, Fatawa al-subki Vol 1: 210). إِنَّا أُمَّةٌ أُمِّيَّةٌ، لاَ نَكْتُبُ وَلاَ نَحْسُبُ الشَّهْرُ هَكَذَا وَهَكَذَا The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "We are an illiterate/unlettered nation/community; we neither write, nor know accounts. The month is like this and this, i.e. sometimes 29 days and sometimes thirty days." - (Sahih al-Bukhari 1913 Book 30, Hadith 23) This Hadith is explained by Sheikh Ahmad Shakir as follows "The command to depend on physical sighting was given when the ummah was un- lettered (*We neither write nor calculate"). A ruling's validity goes only as far as its justification. So if the ummah were to learn how to write and calculate, as well as to make accurate calculations concerning the beginnings of the lunar months, thereby ending the need for actual sighting, it should rely on calculations. In other words, it must not use the old method of sighting except when there is no alternative, as in the desert or in villages where reliable data about the calculations may not be available. Ahmad M. Shäkir, Awa'il al Shuhür al 'Arabiyah , 2d ed. (Cairo: Maktabat In Taymiyah, 1407 AH), 13-4. Imam ash-Sharwani on his commentary on Tuhfah said, “ذكر شيخنا الشهاب الرملي و وافقه الطبلاوي الكبير على الوجوب و الإجزاء قال م ر و لهما العمل بالحساب و التنجيم أيضا في الفطر آخر الشهر إذ المعتمد أن لهما ذلك في أوله و أنه يجزئهما عن رمضان و أن قضية وجوب العمل بالظن أنه يجب عليهما ذلك و كذا من أخبراه إذا ظن صدقهما هـ “ "Imam Ramli said, ‘it is necessary for Hasib to follow their findings and also those who trust them.'" Similar opinion by Shaykh al-Islām Zakariyā al-Anṣārī wrote in Asnā al-Maṭālib (أسني المطالب ج 5 ص 269), his commentary on Ibn al-Muqriʾ’s abridgment of Imām al-Nawawī’s Rawḍat al-Ṭālibīn

I just finished listening to this part 2. Mashallah good work. You did a good job hosting and moderating the debate. And a good list of questions for both sides. It allowed for this matter to be spread out on the table with proper dialogue. Inshallah I hope to see more content like this in the future.

Ml Yusuf also mentions that sighting is not a requirement rather it is certainty. In defence of this point he mentions that the 'Hanafī's would not accept the sighting of 5 people if the skies were clear. Again Ml Yusuf fails to understand that the 'Hanafī Scholars were trying to establish certainty of sighting with the naked eye, that did the 5 individuals really sight with their naked eye or not and why others who were present could not sight.

The whole point of moon sighting Hadiths is to understand the moon is mature or sightable after its birth. There were people who fixed months 29 and 30 days alternatively, without considering the cycle of the moon. ie their months were not aligned with moon cycle. Prophet was very strict about this. Also, some can make a calculation without considering maturity/sightability of the moon, that also we are not suppose to do since Prophet was very string about the sightable moon. Also, the Quran suggested using the APPEARANCE (sighting) of the white and black thread of dawn: “…And eat and drink until the white thread of dawn appears to you distinct from its black thread; then complete your fast till the night appears…” Presently, we do not adhere to this text literally but rather in spirit by following watches and calculated timings. If we take this Quranic command literally, we can never make use of prayer charts for Fajr prayer or to start fasting. Following these specific commandments strictly without considering their essence has never been the true objective of Islamic Law. The aim of Islamic Law is to ensure the fulfillment of the goal of time certainty prescribed by Allah SWT and His Prophet (s).

80% Masajids following calculation? what a BS

i shudder to think of a time when the ummah is "united" upon calculations, because that would necessarily imply there is no one left to actually "see" the new moons. This calculations movement, in my lay opinion, is antithetical to reviving the sunnah of "sighting" the moon

38:47 What about the Grand Mufti of Saudi clearly stating in the viral video that NO country should follow Saudi moon sighting, Rather should sight locally

Sighting the moon is a سبب (cause) to begin your month just like how sunset is سبب (cause) to pray Maghrib. Sunset which is a cause can be known through calculation, however *sighting the moon* which is a cause to begin your month *cannot* be known through calculations. Huge difference between the two. Ml Yusuf Badat fails to understand this.

Use criteria of Al-Qayyim Hijri Calendar, best solution I ever seen. Also read their article

Ml Yusuf: How do you decide if calculations tell you that there is a slim chance of sighting? How does your calculations certainty work here?

We all know the true reason for moonwar is not the method used but rather the lack of central authority. A central authority would decide on a method and the community would comply. One thing I've noticed as a possible hidden agenda to using calculations (with such mental gymnastics that would qualify one for the Olympics) is to prevent the establishment of a Khalifa. As that would quell any moonsighting method disputes and truly unify the Ummah. Using calculations would override the need for a Khalifa in this matter (among other things) and really slow it down.

Calculations can prove the possibilities, not the facts..

So with the calculations method, is it ok to sacrifice the Sunnah (of actually seeing the moon) in order to gain 'unity' among our fractious communities? Trying to make sense of it all.

Where has Shaykh Yusuf Badat done ifta? I hear it was done online, is this true? And if that is true isn’t one of conditions of ifta ملازمة المفتي?

"Do not fast till you see the new moon, and do not break fast till you see it; but if it is obscured from you calculate about it. " A. If the Hilal (crescent moon) is not visible on the 29th day of Sha'ban, the Prophet commanded us to either resort to calculation or complete 30 days according to some interpretations. This implies that we may commence fasting without sighting the Hilal if we have a strong understanding ('Ilmul Yaqeen') of the beginning of the month. This means that the principle of 'do not fast until you see' can have exceptions if we obtain confirmation through other means. B. When the term 'Tara/Yara' is used, the Prophet primarily meant 'naked eye sighting'. However, as inferred from point A, we understand that entering the month without seeing the Hilal is permissible through confirmation by other means such as knowledge obtained through wisdom. C. This hadith mainly consists of two clauses: 1. "Do not fast" 2. "Until you see it" The first clause, "Do not fast," applies to all individuals. Therefore, the second clause, "until you see it," should also be applicable to all individuals. It is universally acknowledged that not everyone desires/able to personally witness the moon; hence, if anyone reports a sighting, the Kazi (judge) typically announces it. Consequently, the second part of the command, "until you see it," would logically imply 'until you know it' thereby ensuring its applicability to all. Otherwise, we would be implying that "only those who sighted the moon are required to begin fasting." From the above points, we can conclude that the 'Ilmul Yaqeen' about the Hilal is important to start the fast.

Million dollar question: if "certainty" is the metaphorical meaning of "seeing" the moon, are we then (God forbid) blasphemously blaming the Prophet (saw) fir not being articulate enough to use the term "certain about the moon" and instead used the term "see the moon" and that he (again God forbid) is the cause of our disunity? No way! If we all conform to the clear text it would solve our disputes. What would make us conform? Binding authority ...Khilafa, imam mehdi. What else????

38:16 Not Oman sir. Just an fyi

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-mAdeyo6Ce44.htmlsi=hM-oaWAn-bqF5xxd Dr Zakir explains how just like Salah times differ throughout the Globe, onset of month will differ. It really sheds light on the issue of moonsighting and food for thought on the foolishness of having a pre calculated Calendar for Islamic months.

Jumua' khutbah is still being performed by Hanafi in Arabic specifically by Deobondies but rest they do it in English. Do people care about what Deobondies are saying???

Sheikh Omar claim that Muslims/Jews during the Prophet's era were able to calculate the movements of the sun and moon, but still didn't use that knowledge to calculate the commencement of the Islamic months, we need to clarify that the Prophet also never used or suggested calculations for prayer times during his time.

If these two Maulana can not agree to moon sighting for unity of Ummah then forget about other political issues. Let you guys be ruled by secular people and you stay divided with your Ego.

Form committee headed by Deonbondies like Helal Mafia Association.

After so many contradictory arguments by these two Maulana, moderator is still asking from them what is the Solution? Subedar has boxing gloves, snatch from him and knock both of them out of Ring.