Most Frequent META Ruling Arguments | Melodious vs Negate, Tenpai vs Karma Cannon 

The problem is the "then", which is considered "and if you do". 0 is valid it's just that if a doesn't succeed b won't trigger. It's still attempts to resolve just doesn't send because a card isn't booked

"I ate 0 cookies" is the exact same as "I didn't eat any cookies" so this is just semantics. "Then" requires "part a" to do something in order to proceed to "part b". For what you describe there is the "also" keyword. For example Sky Striker Multirole _Once per turn: You can target 1 other card you control; send that card to the GY, also your opponent cannot activate cards or effects in response to your Spell Card activations for the rest of this turn_ Even if it doesn't send anything, the protection will still apply.

​@@brandonshepard5303@babrad I don't think you get what he means. He argues that part A has successfully been done as "as many monsters as possible" have been flipped face down and 0 also counts. Obviously, it does not count though. I guess you could have worded the card better.

Mechanically "then" and "and if you do" are a bit different. Then is one after the other and and if you do is simultaneous. There are niche spots where the distinction matters but unless you play fish.dek it's not very common.

@@dtfreak2276 "He argues that part A has successfully been done" that's why I said it's semantics, since "I ate 0 cookies" means I didn't do the action of "eating" at all. While I agree "(min. 1)" should have been used for clarity since this card doesn't lack the space for it (unlike the old Beatrice, Toon DMG or Relinquished texts), it would still be redundant since "all" and "as many as possible" have always been ruled to require at least 1 card/target/etc happening for them to be successful. That's also why I mentioned the "also" keyword. Ironically, this is one of the very few rulings that has been consistent.

Its honestly quite fun to think about rlly, if anyone here would like to jump in on it please I would love to read it.

@@fredplaysbgs5756 TLDR; you flipped 0 monsters, so you essentially didn't perform any action. Since "then" requires "part a" to happen (where you did nothing) it stops applying there so "part b" is skipped. Detailed: This confusion comes from math, were people still argue if 0 should be considered positive or negative (answer: it's neither). Yugioh works more like real life where the concept of 0 means you didn't do something (saying "I didn't do x" instead of saying "I did 0 x"), or even better programming if you will. For example the effect structure of [condition : cost ; effect] in ygo text is similar to branches/loops (especially Dark Worlds that are identical to nested ifs), where 0 can be equivalent to "false", or a counter of a specific action happening at least once (typically named as "flag").

Yeah I’d argue that nothing(0) was flipped so anything after or then can’t be applied I feel like this would be something you and your friends drunkly argue over at a duel night at a friend’s house and it would get put to a vote where the second half can’t be applied

Typically the "( )" are to explain rulings on new terminology or to throw in a limiter. On Kaiju slumber as many as possible the (min. 1) is explaining how it's ruled not functionality. Same with the ishizu cards when a chain of events bring someone's deck count under 5.

As you said, nothing happened so the "then" keyword stops the effect there since it requires the previous part to do something. If an effect told that you gain the ATK of every monster you destroy as LP, then you destroyed 0 monsters, your LP would stay the same. Saying "I don't get any LP" instead of "I gain 0 LP" is just semantics.

Bacha wins, fatality

Also would like to know!

Bacha's continuous effect to prevent effect negation isn't negated, Feather Storm only negates activated effects. Therefore, Bacha WILL protect your Melodious fusions from being negated by the lingering effect of Feather Storm.

Since Harpy Feather Storm doesn't stop Bacha's continuous ability, it's effect to summon from the deck will not be negated by Feather Storm's lingering effect. To give an example using other cards, If you have The Splendid Venus and Jinzo on the field, your face up Continuous Traps do not have their effects negated (though Jinzo would still prevent you from activating any face-down traps as it prevents you from taking that action).

You can Veiler/Imperm Bacha as it negates the entire card. Card effects like this (Veiler/Imperm/EPurrely Beauty/Chixiao) can negate it.

The sending part effects the player, not the card

@@chewdoom8415 thank you!

A "resolving" effect would be something like Mirrorjade destroying the board during the end phase, and at that time since you only apply the effect (it doesn't activate again) it isn't considered an activated effect (the reason it bypasses Noir that has the same protection as Sangen) Also "affects the player" isn't correct and shouldn't be used, this is an effect that forces a player to make an action. Same as evenly. Same as IP or Tribrigade Revolt forcing a Link Summon. Finally another interesting ruling is Samsara D Lotus. While FIRE Dragons are unaffected by activated card effects, Samsara (and Phantom of Yubel) change that effect to something different, so they work bypassing the field spell's protection.

As a zombie player I would say no bc they don’t have lvls to increase

Banishing is not the cost, it banishes for effect. If the effect is negated it resolves negated and Etoile stays on the field

Aren't you still attempting to send cards from the deck to the graveyard even under Shifter?

It is attempting to send them from deck because you have to send the cards from the deck to the gy as fusion material. Shifter just changes where the cards would go. Ash does not care about what about what happens upon resolution

@@DonaDagger Yep.

@@DonaDagger Functionnaly, but Ostinato never says "by sending materials from the hand or deck to the GY" or anything similar, it's just asking to "use materials from the hand or deck". It doesn't care where they go, they simply go to the GY by game mechanics, which under Shifter wouldn't apply anyway, hence my question.

Because you cannot use an effect that would summon monsters while Kaiser Colosseum is active if the opponent controls the same amount of monsters the owner of Kaiser Colosseum does. Even though Nibiru does tribute all monsters on the field, there are possible interactions that would make it not tribute your opponent's monsters before summoning itself, making the activation not legal (e.g. they chain Mask of Restrict, they chain an effect that makes their monsters unaffected, etc.) Same reason you can Ghost Belle something like Nadir Servant even if there are no Dogmatika cards/Fallen of Albaz in their GY, because there is a possible gamestate where you could add a card from the GY (even if an effect like Shifter is active where cards couldn't be sent to the GY regardless). So since there's a possible gamestate where Nibiru wouldn't tribute your opponent's monsters but would still summon itself, you cannot activate it under Kaiser Colosseum.

I think they need to chain the shuffle effect in the previous chain. So for example with Seals, if you tribute to return a card as cl1, it goes to GY as the tribute is cost. Then, if your opponent chains dd crow as cl2 and nothing else is added to the chain, the chain resolves with Seal being banished and then the Seals target being spun. The seals is then unable to activate in a new chain because it cannot confirm it was tributed as its position was changed mid chain before it was able to apply its effect onto the chain. Same reason why summoning a rescue ace air lifter off of emergency before tributing it does not let you use air lifters effect to search. However, if you resolved the chain to pop your yubel and in a new chain you activate her trigger effect to summon as cl1, since it’s on the chain even if it’s moved it will still resolve since it’s a monster effect. It’s like if you normal summon tour guide and use her effect to summon from deck and your opponent activates a raigeki break as cl2, your tour guide dies but since her on summon effect is on chain and was not negated you still summon a level 3 fiend from deck. Tl;dr if he chained mudora in the chain yubel was sent to gy, yeah yubel is shuffled and can’t confirm the destroy effect. If you cl1 yubel and they chain mudora they get fucked afaik. Idk tho I’m not a judge.

same tho

Wait do you not say baka

@@Code117 yes, you do xD

Since Feather storm negates "the activated effects" (unlike Imperm or Skill Drain" Bacha's protection effect would be live. Then "Storm" tries to negate "the effect" and not "the activation" (unlike Baronne, Savage or Apollo) so the protection forces said effect to resolve successfully.

@babrad oh ok thank you for the explanation

Bacha is only for fusion melodious

Feather Storm only negates activated effects, meaning Bacha still applies its protection. Your Melodious Fusion monsters activated effects will resolve successfully.

Why would it?

@@chewdoom8415 i got told that cause little knight came from banished it doesnt remember it was special summoned so it can activate under empen

@@miicyah5 I could be wrong, but I think that applies to when it is special summoned by a specific method outside of general methods like xyz or synchro. Hopefully someone will correct me if I am wrong

it does remember it was special summoned, it doesn't remember what monsters were used for the summon.

Yeah, you got cheated buddy. Always make sure to read. The tenpai field spell says, "During your main phase 1"

@@johnkiggs108 thanks

@@miicyah5 another thing to note about Raiza, it's a mandatory effect so you have to do this even on their own MP but because Raiza uses "also after that" even if you don't return the unaffected monster to the hand/top of deck the 2nd part of the effect that returns a card to hand will still work properly.

It will be negated by Skill Drain. Branded Lost only prevents the *activation* of a card or effect that fusion summons from being negated whereas Skill Drain negates the effect.

Exactly as said by @iamnotmandjtv. For Branded Lost to protect the "Activation" AND the "Effect" it should have been worded like Altergeist Protocol

@@babrad what the diferent then?

@@RaineBarredo-qq1nk Branded Lost: The ACTIVATION of your [[[cards and effects]]] that include an effect that Fusion Summons a Fusion Monster cannot be negated Altergeist Protocol: The activation and effects of "Altergeist" cards activated on your field cannot be negated For Lost to protect from Skill Drain like Protocol, it would be written like this: The activation of your cards and effects, or their effects, that include an effect that Fusion Summons a Fusion Monster cannot be negated. The Revived Sky God The activation of this card, or its effects, cannot be negated, nor can its effects be negated. While this seems redundant: - "The activation of this card" covers counters like Solemn Judment or Baronne that would negate the activation of the card on the field. - "or its effects" covers counters like Baronne or Belle that would negate the activation of this card's effect in the gy - "nor can its effects be negated" covers counters like Ash Blossom/Skull Meister saying "negate that effect" and also a floodgate effect like Trap Stun or End of Anubis.

​​​​@@RaineBarredo-qq1nk I should have responded to this back when you first asked this. I came back here because of how the interaction with Bach reminded me of the new malic link 3. This is probably not the best explanation, but "use" applies to the overall attempt of using the card while "activate" refers to activation. Lost protects activation. Using ash as an example, it specifically negates the effect so the card will still activate but resolved negated. This is why a card like Desires cannot be used again because ash negated the effect, meaning it still successfully resolved, where as a card like hope Harbinger would negate the Activation meaning it did not happen. In the case if skill drain the effects are still allowed to activate but will just resolved negated. Altergeist protocol says that "the activation and effects of your altergeist cards activated on the field cannot be negated." So, this means that activation is protected as well as effects. This means that your opponent can attempt to negate these cards but they will still work. Even cards like skill drain will still be applied to the field but you monsters will still be able to activate and resolve resolve without being negated. It is important to note that this only applies to cards on the field and that "cards" refers to s/t as well.

Resolve not negated

If you're activating the Bystial in response to the activation of Prayers then Skull Guardian hasn't even been summoned yet so there's no way they could respond with it. (Lo also wouldn't have been tributed if that's how they're summoning Skull Guardian but I'm assuming Lo was in the graveyard already and they're using something else)

@@iamnotmandjtv no he activated the spell card lol was the card he used to ritual summon but thank you for the response I've been wondering how that specific interaction worked

@@joshcavins1477 if Lo has been tributed, then you've already allowed them to resolve Prayers and summon Skull Guardian. In which case in a new chain your opponent would have priority to activate the trigger effects of Skull Guardian and Lo, then you would be able to chain your Bystial and target Lo. Your opponent would not be able to use Skull Guardian's negate in this scenario since they would not have Lo on their field

@@iamnotmandjtv thank you for the information person I was playing said that low hits the field the same time skull guardian does I thought it was weird and wanted to get clarification on the ruling

Like he said that because he used low for the full tribute it immediately gets to come onto the field the same time as skull guardian does like he said that it's not a cost to summon skull guardian with prayer and to use the low which I thought was a little weird when he explained it to me

It would. But read Sangen Summoning, first sentence is "During YOUR Main Phase 1"