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Musgrave 9mm: A Gun for the Black Market 

Forgotten Weapons
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In the brief couple of years between the election of a new black-majority government in South Africa in 1994 and the dissolution of the Musgrave company, it attempted to produce a new 9mm pistol to sell to the burgeoning market of black South African citizens buying handguns. Ownership of pistols by black citizens had been legal under apartheid, but was (not surprisingly) quite uncommon - this began to change in 1994. The most popular pistol at the time was the Norinco 213 Tokarev in 9x19mm, which was available in large numbers and at very low cost.
To compete against this, Musgrave designed a simple blowback, polymer framed pistol chambered for 9x19mm using Beretta 92 magazines (which Musgrave had a large supply of, being the license Beretta distributor in the country). The gun was extremely simple, held together with a handful of screws and using a single action only hammer-fired mechanism. It was a commercial flop, however - unable to match the quality and price combination of the Tokarev and only about 500 were made in 1995 and 1996.
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12 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 1,3 тыс.   
@thecynic75
@thecynic75 5 лет назад
Ian is probably the only man on RU-vid who can clickbait you and still end up pleasing you intellectually.
@jacobriddle7230
@jacobriddle7230 5 лет назад
But it is technically not click bait
@jocaleb0236
@jocaleb0236 5 лет назад
I know another channel that uses clickbait but actual does what’s in the clickbait until they do some really dumb math and conclude they’re done It’s officialduckstudios lol
@Psiberzerker
@Psiberzerker 5 лет назад
LindyBeige!
@Lazarus7000
@Lazarus7000 5 лет назад
This one surprised the shit out of me inasmuch as it's exactly what it says on the tin: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-2fjMpn7JCJ0.html and you click on it half expecting it to be footage from a video game and instead there's a real man who moves like a character from a video game.
@C0LDW4RK1D
@C0LDW4RK1D 5 лет назад
Yes, I love it when Ian pleases me.
@birdkiller776
@birdkiller776 5 лет назад
I love that; after Ian said it came in "package" deal," I thought to myself "package deal including what? The gun, a safe, and a bag of concrete?" And that's literally what it was. Genuinely a super cool story I think.
@esper6119
@esper6119 5 лет назад
Freedom as Heck
@dominicksmeech2994
@dominicksmeech2994 5 лет назад
It would be kinda nice for a package deal like that to be available in America for new shooters. You get a reasonable handgun, a small wear resistant case, and maybe a small firearmes saftey booklet.
@ToastyMozart
@ToastyMozart 5 лет назад
@@dominicksmeech2994 One would hope someone gets more than a small pamphlet's worth of safety information before taking ownership of a firearm. Tis a bit like a pilot's safety training consisting of that emergency guidelines card airliners keep in the seat pockets.
@dominicksmeech2994
@dominicksmeech2994 5 лет назад
@@ToastyMozart Well yes, i understand that it wouldn't be a fix for good training, but it would just be a reminder of the basics. Besides, it sould include training like the deal in the video.
@krisrhebergen
@krisrhebergen 5 лет назад
@@dominicksmeech2994 well hi point does sell a package similar to this.
@Leander_
@Leander_ 5 лет назад
2:42 That "anyway" is basically Ian saying "let's not go into the issue of apartheid in a twelve minute video about guns.."
@jackroutledge352
@jackroutledge352 5 лет назад
Babooshka00 I actually respect the fact that manages so consistently not to get into politics on this channel. That’s a good idea when you’re talking about an issue as sensitive as firearms, and a doubly good idea when it’s racism and firearms. Both are a can of 🐛
@imadrifter
@imadrifter 5 лет назад
@@jackroutledge352 a can of Caterpillars?
@ericsmith5919
@ericsmith5919 5 лет назад
@@imadrifter Can of centipedes
@cl0vvntiem
@cl0vvntiem 4 года назад
that "anyway" in written format would have a MASSIVE footnote
@Sip_Dhit
@Sip_Dhit 4 года назад
@@imadrifter yes,
@Thefifthloko
@Thefifthloko 5 лет назад
"A cheap gun" Huh, how cheap could it be? *disassembles gun* Wooooow
@paulrutherford3580
@paulrutherford3580 5 лет назад
Baaaahaaaa cheep piece o crap ! The lower is molded in two pieces and screwed togather! Say what????lol
@Firstname137
@Firstname137 4 года назад
Ever seen a Clarke Special. The barrel in those has a barrel inside..I imagine that it was cheaper to buy a barrel pre fab and stick them in there.
@Nate_the_Nobody
@Nate_the_Nobody 4 года назад
I mean, it looks better than a hi-point
@Edeinawc
@Edeinawc 4 года назад
@Mr Papagiorgio Did you watch the video? It wasn't meant to be illegal at all.
@baconator1377
@baconator1377 4 года назад
"How cheap can it be?" *dissassembly* "Oh..."
@andyrichter2714
@andyrichter2714 5 лет назад
Hard to believe there’s a new manufacture gun meant to be cheaper than a surplus Chinese tokrev. Those things are nearly cheaper than scrap steel.
@jhoughjr1
@jhoughjr1 5 лет назад
I liked my Tokarev
@matthewpham9525
@matthewpham9525 5 лет назад
Oh, the wonders of not paying your child workers
@nindger4270
@nindger4270 5 лет назад
@Lassi Kinnunen certainly not these days, thanks to the one-child-policy the Chinese population is aging so rapidly that they are bringing in foreign labourers themselves because there's not enough young people to do the unskilled labour in the factories; not to mention wages have doubled or even tripled in a decade or two.
@molodoy..
@molodoy.. 5 лет назад
Ahahahah in 90s russian gangsters very liled those because they were cheap and some of them lacked markings and they just throw them away after few shots
@gregoryfilin8040
@gregoryfilin8040 5 лет назад
@@molodoy.. yep. My father was in the Soviet police. He told me you could buy one for about $35 USD, and maybe get 8 shots off, and then toss it in the trash.
@crackedConstant
@crackedConstant 5 лет назад
"Black market".. Oh Ian.
@invictusprima4437
@invictusprima4437 5 лет назад
South Africa the black market of the black market
@thegoldencaulk2742
@thegoldencaulk2742 5 лет назад
We call it the "Urban Market" now
@nejinaji
@nejinaji 5 лет назад
It's African American market you degenerates
@madmarauder9925
@madmarauder9925 5 лет назад
@@nejinaji not in south Africa
@Qardo
@Qardo 5 лет назад
@@nejinaji Gun was sold in South Africa....learn your Geography....
@denverabrahams3535
@denverabrahams3535 3 года назад
To those who don't know, it is literally called "The Black Market" here in 🇿🇦. And not in a derogatory manner. The title of this video is spot on.
@Redmenace96
@Redmenace96 3 года назад
Factual, but hard to swallow. "Blacks want cheap guns" has many implied meanings. All over the world.
@denverabrahams3535
@denverabrahams3535 3 года назад
@@Redmenace96 yes, you're right, it has. But when the market was opened up to everyone to purchase a firearm, the majority of black people (me included) in South Africa simply could not afford one. Our economic disadvantage at that particular time in our history, coupled with our desire to own firearms, created what seemed to be a very lucrative business opportunity for the capitalistically inclined. They quickly realized that "Blacks want[ed] cheap guns" and responded accordingly.
@Redmenace96
@Redmenace96 3 года назад
@@denverabrahams3535 I'm feeling you. I have lightly hunted in my life, and owned a firearm for protection for like a year. Now, I am interested in collecting and historical firearms. Go to the range 2x a year. Cheap, mass produced guns are just a non-starter for me. Only me. Speaking personally. It is really nice that you typed a thoughtful and interesting response on YT. Most people are just nutz. As an American, I do believe that owning weapons should be universal. But, I also think it is ok to point out the problems of cheap and easily accessible handguns. I'm ok living in a world where thinking and responsible people deal with those problems. Banning and saying no, is not the answer! SA has at least one thing in common with U.S. You are a young country, and are figuring things out. Nobody has the right to yell at you! ha,ha! Both our countries are 'teenagers'. SA is standing just outside the big curtain , and I believe will be an important and powerful place when Africans step onto the main stage. Please pardon me, if I am too presumptuous.
@hi_im_elli
@hi_im_elli 3 года назад
@@Redmenace96 I think its bad to have firearms for everyone. The government should have the "Violence Monopoly" and everyone else shouldn't have the power, right or weapons for violence on their own
@Redmenace96
@Redmenace96 3 года назад
@@hi_im_elli I feel you. Why do you feel that way? What is the downside of People having weapons? Is State Power the best power, and the only way? Why?
@bwhog
@bwhog 3 года назад
I love the concept. "Let's see how cheap we can make a gun that actually works the way its supposed to." It actually ended up having its own visual appeal. Not saying I'd be the first to buy it but it was a good attempt at their goal.
@juanon_industries7256
@juanon_industries7256 Год назад
If only the nambu creators knew💀
@1337penguinman
@1337penguinman 5 месяцев назад
I love the aesthetic of South African firearms. Sort of the anti HK.
@Roshake77
@Roshake77 5 лет назад
Is this title clickbait? *Well yes, but actually no*
@theoneand0nly874
@theoneand0nly874 5 лет назад
@U Tubred there technically brown people so its the brown market
@krewaskysalter3872
@krewaskysalter3872 5 лет назад
What if he was a g nd said a new market opened up and numbers were going for the company so they manufactured a cheap pistol to get more out . And thats the truth though
@jer1014t2th
@jer1014t2th 4 года назад
"Gun for the Black Market" *....YOU LIED TO ME.*
@nopnopnopnopnopnopnop
@nopnopnopnopnopnopnop 4 года назад
It absolutely is clickbait.
@Hewitt_himself
@Hewitt_himself 4 года назад
I clicked this to make the joke the other way as South Africa... it backfired, so maybe not clickbait
@GreenblookUK1
@GreenblookUK1 3 года назад
At exactly this time, a friend of mine worked in a gun shop in central Johannesburg and they were brining in hundreds of Tokarevs in from Russia every month. Sold for a ridiculously low price with holster, 2 mags and a handful of rounds.
@markjones2859
@markjones2859 5 месяцев назад
I bought the Same package here 🇨🇦 . I paid $399 Canadian. I love it. Powerful little cartridge. 😊
@svtirefire
@svtirefire 5 лет назад
The way they put screws through the company logo really screams "quality."
@candidmoe8741
@candidmoe8741 5 лет назад
That doesn't affect the gun mechanical operation, and why spend money making it pretty?
@BleedingUranium
@BleedingUranium 5 лет назад
@@candidmoe8741 Why not just stamp it literally anywhere else?
@candidmoe8741
@candidmoe8741 5 лет назад
@@BleedingUranium Because every change costs. You have to spend time designed a new frame, making a new mold, ...
@WJS774
@WJS774 5 лет назад
@@candidmoe8741 Doesn't that imply that they made the mould _before_ they designed the gun?
@calvingreene90
@calvingreene90 5 лет назад
It screams redesign an cost savings; it might have been a marketing ploy.
@mkzhero
@mkzhero 5 лет назад
"What's your job?" "Oh, i sell stuff for the black market" "WHAT?!" "What? I sell stuff to Africa"
@Davo996
@Davo996 5 месяцев назад
It South Africa selling guns to the world in this case.
@battleborn2002
@battleborn2002 3 года назад
I was impressed with the gun laws in SA. I was able to rent a 1911 with a holster and a full magazine at the hotel for about $20.00 a week.
@sartainja
@sartainja Год назад
Was any ammo included?
@battleborn2002
@battleborn2002 Год назад
@@sartainja One full 7 rd mag.
@sartainja
@sartainja Год назад
@@battleborn2002 Bar-gain.
@nopc9728
@nopc9728 Год назад
How do they know someone wouldn't steal it? Did you have to sign some sort of contract? Then again they have all the renters info.
@-TBH-
@-TBH- 11 месяцев назад
@@nopc9728 Weapons are usually dirt-cheap in war-thorn shithole countries.
@charles_wipman
@charles_wipman 5 лет назад
Even being so basic, crude and cheap... it looks good to me; very Distric 9 or Elisium like IMO.
@joshualance6005
@joshualance6005 5 лет назад
Same here looks like a ruger mark pistol in 9mm kinda
@jaanikaapa6925
@jaanikaapa6925 5 лет назад
Elysium and District 9 are both films made in SA, the director too (I believe) is from SA too.
@Oldage429
@Oldage429 5 лет назад
@@jaanikaapa6925 He is, yeah.
@1tulip
@1tulip 5 лет назад
Mecka Doyle k
@daveweller9579
@daveweller9579 5 лет назад
I think I have Musgrave love
@Doug_Narby
@Doug_Narby 5 лет назад
Ian, I finally figured out the thing I like the most about your videos. You act like we are as smart and interested as you are. I like to think I am as interested, at least. Thanks for the great work.
@garfe5555
@garfe5555 5 лет назад
The mechanical segments are a mindfuck for me but i love the information.
@S3Cs4uN8
@S3Cs4uN8 5 лет назад
@@garfe5555 I've found the more of these videos I watch the less confusing and more understandable all the engineery parts become. Good old fashioned learning.
@thesturm8686
@thesturm8686 5 лет назад
He treated us like almost no teacher has ever done in the entire history of teaching
@dscrappygolani7981
@dscrappygolani7981 4 года назад
That is an astute observation, sir.
@socalgn159
@socalgn159 5 лет назад
Wondered what a 9mm Ruger Mark series would look like, now I know.
@paulhenry8174
@paulhenry8174 5 лет назад
Me too. Hope ruger makes a target 9mm soon.
@joshualance6005
@joshualance6005 5 лет назад
Yep except ruger uses a bolt instead if a slide like this firearm
@ThetaReactor
@ThetaReactor 5 лет назад
This is less fiddly to reassemble.
@karlt8233
@karlt8233 5 лет назад
I would love a Ruger Mk in 9mm.
@joshualance6005
@joshualance6005 5 лет назад
@toeff7852 no ruger uses a bolt like a nambu pistol. The Musgrave uses a slide like all postols
@RicusCoetzee
@RicusCoetzee 5 лет назад
Musgrave has actually been reborn, a couple of years ago, JJ Weapons based in the town of Ermelo in South Africa acquired the naming rights as well as the patents and left over actions and barrels. They are currently manufacturing hunting rifles, and have even developed their own Mauser-style action which they are still busy field testing.
@frikkiecoetzee6198
@frikkiecoetzee6198 5 лет назад
Ian. The pistol in case is very rare over her in SA. I have not ever seen one personally and believe me it is not because of a lack of trying. One mistake in your video however. Before the Firearms Control Act of 2000 you could buy a pistol or rifle with no proof of training. This requirement was introduced by the aforementioned act only. In terms of the previous 1969 act, you inly had to convince the police ( Central Firearm Registry) of a need to possess a firearm.
@john-paulsilke893
@john-paulsilke893 5 лет назад
Frikkie Coetzee so much disinformation about SA gun laws. Even SA’s are poorly educated on the subject. I’ve been trying to parce out the specifics and figure them out for some time very much like my Canadian gun laws which are also poorly understood.
@Captain_Wet_Beard
@Captain_Wet_Beard 5 лет назад
@@john-paulsilke893 The disinformation was intentional, it made it easier to selectively crack down on those the state or police didnt like. The old requirement of convincing the police that it is needed, accomplished similar goals in a more direct way.
@seanrossouw9936
@seanrossouw9936 5 лет назад
@@john-paulsilke893 Join Gunsite SA or Gun Owners South Africa if you want more info
@daddydank2665
@daddydank2665 5 лет назад
See I can tell you’re from Africa since your name has more syllables than a polish city
@ovk-ih1zp
@ovk-ih1zp 5 лет назад
@joe jitsu They still don't. Why do you think the Dems are still pushing gun & speech control so hard?
@legionitalia309
@legionitalia309 5 лет назад
The metal plate embedded in the frame appears to be a heat shield to prevent the heat of the barrel from warping the frame at the contact point. The excess heat may have caused binding with the slide or may have interfered with trigger movement, likely as a direct result of the frame being made as two halves. Great video as usual.
@oldesertguy9616
@oldesertguy9616 5 лет назад
I was thinking it might be part of the metal the screws thread into. It might be simpler to have a plate you drill and tap rather than individual bushings inserted into the plastic.
@harryhudson5140
@harryhudson5140 4 года назад
Maybe its to re-enforce the trigger area to keep from folding the frame in half?
@ST-zm3lm
@ST-zm3lm 5 лет назад
Honestly I think this is a pretty neat idea. With the latest materials and processes this could be a genuinely decent design that gives Hi Point a run for its money in the dirt cheap market.
@kuebby
@kuebby 3 года назад
I've watched this video like 5 times because the explanation of selling a handgun with a bag of premix cement and a steel poll is just hilarious and awesome all at the same time.
@JenniferinIllinois
@JenniferinIllinois 5 лет назад
It's a South African Hi-Point but not as ugly. 🤣🤣🤣
@RalphReagan
@RalphReagan 5 лет назад
Certainly better looking by far
@cleidsonaraujopeixoto163
@cleidsonaraujopeixoto163 5 лет назад
Damn, that was exactly what I thought.
@ThetaReactor
@ThetaReactor 5 лет назад
I wonder if it's as reliable.
@billylin5404
@billylin5404 5 лет назад
An advantage of this pistol over the Hi-Point is that it uses Beretta 92 magazines.
@jic1
@jic1 5 лет назад
That steel bolt/slide thingy is definitely more compact than a Hi-Point's zamak slide, but I wonder if it's more expensive to make?
@Quality_Guru
@Quality_Guru 4 года назад
An extremely simple firearm with minimal parts, but most importantly what an amazing story that only Ian can truly bring to life. I can just picture someone carrying a bag of cement along with the purchase of this pistol. Not sure what I would enjoy the most, disabling the pistol, shooting it or telling its history. What an amazing pistol for anyone to own!
@koopa_6ghg257
@koopa_6ghg257 5 лет назад
Talking about Africa : The poachers guns were quite interesting ! Are we gonna see more of them one day ?
@edwardteach3000
@edwardteach3000 5 лет назад
he did do a couple awhile ago if I remember correctly
@xAlexZifko
@xAlexZifko 4 года назад
id love to see more homemade guns on this channel, but its also not exactly fitting i realize.
@macoppy6571
@macoppy6571 3 года назад
Instant upgrade by 3d printing the lower! Refine the fire control group, et voila!, a decent, safe pistol. I really like the safety mechanism, chunky 🙂
@jeffreyplum5259
@jeffreyplum5259 5 лет назад
The metal plate in the lower unit gives the screws for the barrel something to anchor against. I believe the metal can be seen through the two screw holes. It is the only structural metal built into the lower unit. I guess it helps achor the two lower halves to the barrel anf slide group. It seems very nice gun, as close to the old "Lock, Stock, and Barrel " an auto pistol can be. BTW good luck with Headstamp Publishing. I look forward to window shopping your unique cataqlogue. Headstamp books seem amed above my paygrade. Would be gun designers could really use an " Encyclopedia of Terrible Firearms. " I cannot guess how many books would make up a complete set, You could include a video DVD of range time with them. I say "range time" because shooting them may not, always, work. Your work in always great, even with terrible guns.
@moofushu
@moofushu 4 года назад
I like it for how simple it is. I hope one of the firearms companies takes a shine to this and comes up with their copy of it. Some of us are STILL living in mud huts!
@lordhumungus8720
@lordhumungus8720 3 года назад
Ben Musgrave was a relative of mine, so it’s always kinda surreal to see videos on his companies weapons.
@Rugby2000
@Rugby2000 2 месяца назад
Ben or Bennie Jnr?
@normanmccollum6082
@normanmccollum6082 3 года назад
For those who don't know, Norinco 213 is a TT-33, but China produced TT-33 pistols both in 7.62x25 and 9mm to my understanding. Also, 7.62x25 has the same rim as the 9x19. 7.62x25 is effectively a 9x19, with the casing extended to 25mm instead of 19mm, and necked down to 7.62mm. God bless, take care, Jesus loves you. I don't normally end my comments like this but for some reason I had this sense of love come over me and so I included it, sort of felt like someone might read this who's in a dark place and could do with a message of genuine love. It's true, Jesus loves you, take care.
@amirbutcher2147
@amirbutcher2147 5 лет назад
That two-part screwed polymer frame is very reminiscent of the plastic toys I used to play with as a young lad. Another sign of how cheaply these are made.
@twiggss4344
@twiggss4344 5 лет назад
Also Kel-Tec. lol
@guyrigby109
@guyrigby109 2 года назад
@@twiggss4344 YEP. As a fan of Kel-Tec. Yeah lol, also keltec.
@J.DeLaPoer
@J.DeLaPoer 4 года назад
This looks uncannily like an antique air pistol I used to own. The name escapes me right now, but it had a similar grip angle and profile, the same tubular type top assembly. Call me crazy but I really like the way this thing looks
@KC-bg1th
@KC-bg1th 2 года назад
Definitely not crazy. The way the top hangs back behind the grip gives it so much more character.
@ukaszwalczak1154
@ukaszwalczak1154 9 месяцев назад
Not an air-gun expert, but seems like one of those Webley air-operated pistols.
@user-ex3ik9pn7l
@user-ex3ik9pn7l 6 месяцев назад
How was your air pistol cocked?
@steelblade1
@steelblade1 6 месяцев назад
As of 2024, that 1000 Rand is about $250.00. Gun, safe, training, and everything.
@_ArsNova
@_ArsNova 3 года назад
Probably the only RU-vid "bait and switch" that I wasn't mad about.
@Omnihil777
@Omnihil777 5 лет назад
That thing is so simple, and kinda elegenat because of it's simplicity...next month comes my mini-lathe, I'll guess I'll give it a shot (no pun intended & of course just kidding)
@mrsaturdaynightspecial3055
@mrsaturdaynightspecial3055 5 лет назад
Let me know how it works out?
@mrsaturdaynightspecial3055
@mrsaturdaynightspecial3055 5 лет назад
You could post on your channel. I'll subscribe.
@browndd
@browndd 5 лет назад
When I saw the title I started thinking "What the hell" why in the world would anyone intentionally invest the time and money in inventing and manufacturing an expressly illegal firearm. And then I confidently told myself "well I already know why it's on forgotten weapons"! Clever play on words Ian. And also an interesting and novel market for the people at Musgrave to try and pursue.
@geraldrandall1566
@geraldrandall1566 5 месяцев назад
I am from South Africa and I have never even heard about this pistol. Your videos are always very well researched and interesting.
@quentinhoward99
@quentinhoward99 5 лет назад
"The handles are screwed together." Just like the Maverick nerf gun I took apart yesterday.
@GoblinHero
@GoblinHero 5 лет назад
"black market" lol
@planescaped
@planescaped 4 года назад
That's African-African-American market mister!
@yoinkster6491
@yoinkster6491 3 года назад
Takes some black magic to make it work.
@shupp6267
@shupp6267 3 года назад
@@yoinkster6491 African American magic, sir
@yoinkster6491
@yoinkster6491 3 года назад
@@shupp6267 ._. Your one of those people are you.
@shupp6267
@shupp6267 3 года назад
@@yoinkster6491 *You're, and nah I just saw my opportunity to be unfunny
@zorro456
@zorro456 5 лет назад
I actually LOVED my Norinco 213. I could swap between 9MM and 7.62X25 with just a barrel swap. All the 7.62X25 needs is a good expanding bullet and I would chose that over the 9mm.
@RedXlV
@RedXlV 5 месяцев назад
The Norinco 213 is a Tokarev with a safety added, so it's a quality pistol.
@swissbianco
@swissbianco 5 лет назад
i had one of these firearms in my hands at the iwa dealer show in nurnberg many years ago. the south africans did exhibit it and because the price was so low there was a good interest for the swiss gunmarket in it but they never made it to swiss unfortunally.
@williamprince1114
@williamprince1114 5 лет назад
Better looking then a HiPoint.
@_Atzin
@_Atzin 5 лет назад
*than
@davidbielski8621
@davidbielski8621 5 лет назад
Probably works a whole hell of alot better and has fewer parts... I'd rather mess with 5 screws than 1 roll pin, come to think of it
@arianaml743
@arianaml743 4 года назад
The hypoint is currently reliable
@ronaldcolman6211
@ronaldcolman6211 5 лет назад
How is this so much cooler than a Hi-Point? I actually like it. The double stack mag from a known good design just makes it better.
@molochi
@molochi 5 лет назад
I would reserve judgment for testing. HiPoints work more reliably than the knock off Tokarev that this pistol failed to compete against.
@sneakysnake7695
@sneakysnake7695 5 лет назад
The hi point for all the crap it gets is pretty indestructible, watch Demolition Ranch he shot at the thing and it still fired
@bensmith7536
@bensmith7536 5 лет назад
Most prolific content poster, on youtube. Your publish rate is insane, how do you maintain the rage??? BTW, awesome, love your work.
@vvvppp6021
@vvvppp6021 5 лет назад
he is Gun Yisus, he can do anything!
@otm646
@otm646 4 года назад
It seems like he films several of these in one day, still requires a lot of research, but that lets him head to an interesting location create a bunch of content then release an episode every few days.
@joeydubbs763
@joeydubbs763 5 лет назад
Thank you for the complete teardown Ian. Best gun channel on RU-vid.
@TheStraycat74
@TheStraycat74 5 лет назад
I would LOVE a video on obtaining technical data packages for guns like this one. because a few minor changes and that'd be a very nice gun for the US market as well
@otm646
@otm646 4 года назад
What niche do you think this would fill in the US market?
@lIlIIlIllIIIllIIllIlIllIllI
@lIlIIlIllIIIllIIllIlIllIllI 4 года назад
@@otm646 "Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated." - Marx
@chrisdooley6468
@chrisdooley6468 4 года назад
Honest to god up until I started watching you I thought I was generally well informed about the history of many weapons but good grief you have forgotten more than I ever knew lol. Every video I learn something new. It really is a pleasure watching these
@dbmail545
@dbmail545 5 лет назад
I'm impressed that the buffer spring is not very compressed like the Astra M600.
@christianfritz6333
@christianfritz6333 3 года назад
To my knowledge the little metal plate is twofold, it gives reinforcement to the barrel mount, and acts as a heat shield of sorts.
@arkboi6425
@arkboi6425 3 года назад
This thing is built exactly like the $1 BB guns the ice cream man sells
@WhiteDwarfVR4
@WhiteDwarfVR4 4 года назад
"Takes Beretta 92 magazines". Okay, I want one!
@mobrien7211
@mobrien7211 5 лет назад
So the gun designed to be cheap and available to the masses, ends up being extremely rare and expensive to own.
@kevinwise1997
@kevinwise1997 5 лет назад
It's just like CCR's "fortunet son" Made as an anti-war song, used in all war movies and games
@sebastianlaczewski63
@sebastianlaczewski63 5 лет назад
So glad I find your channel.So many forgotten weapons,some of tham I never heard of.Videos are put well together,informative.
@michaelhughes3302
@michaelhughes3302 5 лет назад
2:41. When Ian realizes he's about to open a giant can of worms. Nice save ole boy!
@blamokapow137
@blamokapow137 5 лет назад
What a really neat, crappy pistol.
@TheMaritimeHorror
@TheMaritimeHorror 5 лет назад
Blamo Kapow I kind of want one. Just to have it
@thesturm8686
@thesturm8686 5 лет назад
@@TheMaritimeHorror i know, right?
@ILikeToLaughAtYou
@ILikeToLaughAtYou 3 года назад
@@TheMaritimeHorror You still lookin for your friend?
@TheMaritimeHorror
@TheMaritimeHorror 3 года назад
@@ILikeToLaughAtYou I am. Thing is, I’ve been searching all my life for Gavin. I don’t even know what he looks like.
@joshglover2370
@joshglover2370 5 лет назад
This kinda looks like one of those Crossman dart guns from Wal-Mart. 😅
@wilemelliott
@wilemelliott 5 лет назад
Watching the disassembly, I see about 3 things that could be changed to improve it [replace the two barrel screws with a single dual pin unit with HK style pin detents to simplify field stripping for instance] that might improve its marketability...oh well
@wilemelliott
@wilemelliott 5 лет назад
@@iatsd true enough, I just thought the external design was neat and a little refinement might be a good idea. Not that its going to happen, of course
@TheEnglishLongbow
@TheEnglishLongbow 5 лет назад
I'm a bit confused as to how such a light looking blowback pistol can handle the 9mm parabellum. Hi-Points and Astra 600s are certainly heavier with sturdier recoil springs, by the look of it. I also recall the difficulty Ian described with the Dreyse 9mm that had a system bypassing the strong recoil spring in order to cock it. What is this Musgrave like to fire, I wonder?
@rogerwennstrom6677
@rogerwennstrom6677 5 лет назад
I was thinking exactly the same thing. Won't the gun beat itself to death with that little mass and that weak a spring in it?
@ricklyons6125
@ricklyons6125 4 года назад
Ian, you're awesome man. I can't tell you how many nights I go to sleep and decide im going to learn something and end up on your channel
@7come11two
@7come11two 4 года назад
I think it's beautiful. Beautifully simple. And actually quite attractive to look at. The Beretta magazine sealed the deal for me. I want one. I don't need one. But I want one. I think these would sell quite well in the US, if it's not manufactured with Union labor. It's far more desirable than the Remington R-51, and could probably sell for one third the price.
@flyinbiker2001
@flyinbiker2001 5 лет назад
The little plate of metal in the frame is more then likely a stiffener to keep from distorting the frame when the screws are tightend realistically this is a much more aesthetically pleasing gun then the Highpoint , I wonder why it has not been produced in the US
@therideneverends1697
@therideneverends1697 5 лет назад
ahh the tokerev, when you have 250 or so dollars and need a gun that could survive a bomb detonation.
@asteroidrules
@asteroidrules 3 года назад
you can really see the economic thinking in the way this thing looks. On the grip frame they did a decent job of molding the grip and logos since it was just being cast so having those details on the casting didn't affect cost, while on the bolt everything was made around having the simplest machining operations and fewest parts possible.
@Ksportin
@Ksportin 5 лет назад
if i were to guess about that metal plate, i'd guess that it was there to protect the polymer frame from the barrel piece that protrudes underneath the barrel. Perhaps they were worried about either the force of the hammer dropping or firing causing that to wear that part of the frame. A very thin piece of metal would be a cheap way of increasing the longevity of the pistol if that were the case and would be cheaper than having to repair and return damaged frames.
@jayzenitram9621
@jayzenitram9621 5 лет назад
That piece might not have been just a flat plate. I'm betting it was a U channel which the screws bolted into. I don't see how you would screw the barrel directly to polymer and not have those holes wallow out within a few hundred rounds.
@Celebmacil
@Celebmacil 5 лет назад
@@jayzenitram9621 Between these two posts, you guys came to the exact conclusion I was thinking of.
@Tiger351
@Tiger351 5 лет назад
I was thinking the same thing as both of you guys as well, at certain angles it definitely looks like the metal is also around the screw holes in the frame.
@Ksportin
@Ksportin 5 лет назад
@@jayzenitram9621 I was thinking that too. Only reason I didn't say it was Ian said flat plate and was taking his word on it
@monkeyship74401
@monkeyship74401 5 лет назад
I wonder if it was to provide some stiffness/resistance to the bolts that hold the barrel in. So it wouldn't get over tightened?
@nevillecartwright7292
@nevillecartwright7292 5 лет назад
Wow, what an interesting video! I am a South African and have never seen this pistol before! It reminds me a lot of the old Astra 400 9mm pistols. Thank you for an interesting video.
@RadiantFeline
@RadiantFeline 5 лет назад
That pistol looks like the offspring of a rough night between a CZ SP-01 and a Ruger MkIV
@edwhitson9873
@edwhitson9873 3 года назад
I like this design. It looks to be very reliable, simple construction, obviously lightweight. I want one. If any weak point I can see, the cast rear collar
@ronschramm9163
@ronschramm9163 5 лет назад
The Hi-Point of South Africa...Hmmm...maybe Hi-Point could get the patent rights for this thing. It disassembles slightly easier than a Hi-Point.
@karldensmore6191
@karldensmore6191 4 года назад
I would buy it
@weswolever7477
@weswolever7477 7 месяцев назад
Same here
@anvior45
@anvior45 5 лет назад
If you update this gun slightly and make it in the US, people will buy it. People buy Hi point c9s. This gun looks a lot less blocky and if you had to use it as a carry gun i think it might fit more holsters and be easier to hide. Also it comes with flush fitting 15-shot magazines, Berettas, so cheap, available and a good design: Also there are 92 mags that are 18-30 rounds out there. When it comes to disassembly/reassembly.. It is perhaps a tie, but for me it seems easier to just unscrew four screws and then have it all apart then the c9 breakdown.
@toddostrander1026
@toddostrander1026 4 года назад
What about the long lost Wamo pistols from the 50's. These are hard to find as well as a true mystery because the current mfg denies they ever existed. Thank you for all you have done to educate us on these forgotten weapons.
@purpseatpeeps8641
@purpseatpeeps8641 3 года назад
I just wonder how it would go down if every gun in that room had 1 bullet in it, and they were all set off at once.
@darthmetallord
@darthmetallord 2 года назад
Alot of Explosions
@bungalobill7941
@bungalobill7941 5 лет назад
Love hearing the history of firearms as much as seeing how they operate
@twilightzone39
@twilightzone39 5 лет назад
The slide assembly along with the fire control group reminds me of a miniature AR-15 BCG and FCG.
@saltygrandpajoe6375
@saltygrandpajoe6375 5 лет назад
Gun Jesus trolls RU-vid ... that title will come back to haunt you 😏.
@soldat2501
@soldat2501 5 лет назад
"Trigger pull is not great....yeah, we'll just go with, not great." I spit out my coffee on that one, LOL!
@calvingreene90
@calvingreene90 5 лет назад
Clearly he remembered how cheap the gun was and was surprised about how good the trigger pull was for the money.
@warlockcommandcenter
@warlockcommandcenter 5 лет назад
Ok bit of further history, back in the days before the end of apartheid if you went to South Africa with a hand gun the customs officer would give a form that was a concealed carry permit and stamp your passport with a concealed carry notice and told you not to leave your pistol in your hotel room. Remember South Africa was embargoed on firearms so unless they made it in South Africa you legally may not be able to buy it. Furthermore current conditions have made it dangerous to be in South Africa without a firearm however under the current government firearm are restricted.
@playboicartiismydad4842
@playboicartiismydad4842 5 лет назад
That awkward moment when the murder rate has halved since 94....... Dont believe the propaganda its fucking everywhere South Africa was on the brink of civil war in the 80s and 90s it i objectively safer now. And stop conflating farmers to all white people in SA their situations are very different
@christianweibrecht6555
@christianweibrecht6555 5 лет назад
@@andreahighsides7756 can you provide a link to your source of information?
@vaclavkrpec5554
@vaclavkrpec5554 5 лет назад
That thin mysterious thin metal plate in the frame, just below the chamber & the screws through the company name... Looks to me like they intended to make some sort of more handy take-apart mechanism. But it didn't work or, more likely, was too expensive---so in the end, they ended up with 2 simple screws and since the frame moulds were already done...
@Stormcloakvictory
@Stormcloakvictory 5 лет назад
From a quick glance (before the video starts) it reminds me of of a Ruger .22 but 9mm
@rognvaldrasbjrn3972
@rognvaldrasbjrn3972 Год назад
When i saw the thumbnail, and the title, it made me think of some copy of a Welrod or similar assassin pistol used in black ops etc.. the thought of a handgun for the masses only registered once Gun Jesus started talking pre-94 Then I was like okaaaaay..... I was not aware that Musgrave made handguns. I used to do standard and Bisley. My standard rifle was an R1. My Bisley rifle was specially made for me (being in the SAP team) as I shoot mostly off the left shoulder. Thanks Ian for enlightening me with this video on this jewel which is part of our national heritage. Respect from South Africa 🇿🇦
@somebody3143
@somebody3143 5 лет назад
This is quite fascinating and quite the turn of phrase when talking about the “Black Market!” Lol
@karolfialkowski7894
@karolfialkowski7894 2 года назад
I don't know why, but I am really impressed by that gun. Its simplicity is outstanding, nothing fancy but I just really like this slide unit.
@richardsveum8452
@richardsveum8452 5 лет назад
reminds me a lot of the WW2 Era Astra 400 series pistols, Greatly simplified and made more cost effective.
@jameslooker4791
@jameslooker4791 5 месяцев назад
I wish there were more videos on RU-vid about this gun.
@thebiteasmr6428
@thebiteasmr6428 5 лет назад
Hello forgotten weapons and I think you can say You like guns. Well so do I, but this helps me learn more. Thank you.
@herbderbler1585
@herbderbler1585 5 месяцев назад
Blowback 9mm, but it doesn't have the giant brick slide of a HiPoint. I bet that's a snappy shooter.
@thequesomanishere
@thequesomanishere 5 лет назад
From now on the "urban demographic" should be referred to as "The Black Market"
@stevegable2707
@stevegable2707 5 лет назад
love the simplicity and the look of the little beasty !
@JippaJ
@JippaJ 5 лет назад
I really, REALLY, like the design. Fixed barrel, low complexity and low cost (at least at the time).
@neutronalchemist3241
@neutronalchemist3241 5 лет назад
This is actually brilliant. For an handgun made to be inexpensive, it's so much more elegant than an Hi-Point. It only needs a simpler disassembly method (not really difficult to implement) and a better trigger (there is no treason for it to be worse than any semiauto SA hammer trigger, it's only a question of specs and assembly).
@americanmade6996
@americanmade6996 5 лет назад
I think the disassembly process is fine. Any additional parts and/or machining locking lugs will make production costs jump. Musgrave's goal was a price point, not quality; they were competing with Norinco and homemade guns.
@neutronalchemist3241
@neutronalchemist3241 5 лет назад
@@americanmade6996 Screws are not bad and their price is hardly beatable, but a ball-lock pin costs few cents, and a pair of them could have made the disassembly process entirely tool-less.
@americanmade6996
@americanmade6996 5 лет назад
​@@neutronalchemist3241 You've gotten me to watch the disassembly several times. What I see is that the screws add much needed rigidity (two piece frame!). I don't see where any of them can be eliminated or replaced without requiring heavier parts and much more precise fitting, which of course equals cost. What do you see?
@neutronalchemist3241
@neutronalchemist3241 5 лет назад
@@americanmade6996 The "tail" of the barrel can't really pass through the frame when the halves are screwd togheter. Other screws do the work of tightening the frame, and others can be added without interfering with the barrel (IE in front of the "tail" of the barrel). All the barrel need is one or two pins to secure it to the frame. That can rise the manufacturing price of the gun of few cents, but mind that the competitor was a Makarov clone, that didn't need tools to be disassembled.
@dentistguba
@dentistguba 5 лет назад
Could the metal plate be there above the trigger for out of battery protection to stop your fingertip getting blown off?
@MonkeyDespot
@MonkeyDespot 5 лет назад
My guess is that it's an reinforcing and alignment plate. Since there are only a few screws holding the frame together, and it is made from relatively soft polymer, the plate would help the two halves come together properly and hopefully prevent warping and misalignment from occurring in that area of the frame. ...Just a guess though.
@sambaggins2798
@sambaggins2798 4 года назад
In another few years that will be a Star Wars blaster.
@Willian_Boa_Tarde
@Willian_Boa_Tarde 5 лет назад
See what you did there in the title! 😜
@notactuallyADJ
@notactuallyADJ 5 лет назад
It is still very dificult to aquire a fire-arm here in south africa, the new law (2003) means that you still need a training certificate but you then need an additionional certificate per fire arm type you wish to own (rifle, shotgun or handgun) and a safe that is mounted. Only after you have done this, can you apply for either a sporting license or a self defence license that the police can deny without giving your a reason why (At this point you have already paid 4000 rand minimum ($500) to meet legal requirements). note... nowhere here have you even bought a gun yet... the entire process takes a minimum of 1 year (waiting for approval and backround check) but some people have been waiting upwards of three years... whats worse is their is talk of outlawing defensive fire arms entirely.
@buckshot4428
@buckshot4428 4 года назад
Needs some bailing wire to hold it together.
@Waldemarvonanhalt
@Waldemarvonanhalt 4 года назад
Getting into the gun owner market in RSA isn't difficult from a financial perspective if you're only looking at available firearms, the real prohibitive aspect is the time and cost associated with getting competency and licensing.
@gregcampwriter
@gregcampwriter 5 лет назад
It looks suspiciously like a Ruger .22 pistol--with an improved disassembly procedure.
@wizardofahhhs759
@wizardofahhhs759 5 лет назад
Exactly what I was thinking😃
@reedr1659
@reedr1659 4 года назад
Until you find a Mark IV. Two second field strip. Huge improvement over previous versions.
@fuzzydunlop7928
@fuzzydunlop7928 5 лет назад
Selling literal bags of concrete in order to get around gun legislation sounds like such an American gun-owner thing to do.
@mazkact
@mazkact 5 лет назад
Interesting, still would take the Chinese 9 mm Tokerev over it. Hope you can do a video on the Musgrave Palma rifle.
@s.armitage3963
@s.armitage3963 3 года назад
I think that piece of metal above the trigger on the frame bends up to the side and gives the screws something metal to screw into. It looks shiny through the holes.
@Sevensixtytwo
@Sevensixtytwo 5 лет назад
Would be intresting to see this vs hi-point shooting video.
@BTArnold100
@BTArnold100 5 лет назад
Very rare gun. I think I may have only ever seen one of these at an Uncle's house. He had a friend who's a collector and has some other Denel pieces. The gun looked like it was still in good firing condition, well that is ENTIRELY subjective to your opinion of what is "good".
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