I'd be angry too lol. Imagine how often he has to play against those same 5 broken characters as PEACH. That's NOT fun. I don't care about Hurt or ApolloKage, Snake is lame as hell. Sonic is lame, Game & Watch lame, ROB is lame, Steve is very lame. Of course the top 5 characters is full of lame ones. Thanks for the lack of balancing, Sakurai and friends. Really makes this game oh so exciting at the top level.
"my mom plays ROB and she's pretty good. she can just do whatever she wants, she just runs around and presses 3 buttons" this sent me to the afterlife LOL
I really appreciate you being detailed and being patient to share more in depth with your thoughts. That shows respect to your viewers. A lot of content creators are very surface level. And I think you went beyond even your last vid when it comes to that.
thank you! i am always told on rules of the algorithm and whatever and most creators try to fill that and I never wanted to even do content because of that, but I've been doing it my own way like this I wanted to have more substance and I'm glad people seem to enjoy it for what it is.
@@MuteAce Understood. 💪 👨🏫 I personally do. I feel others do too If they take the chance to see the value even without a intense click bait or something. I was thinking of starting of little RU-vid channel regarding my day job(nothing with gaming)one day and I would hope the same. Better to enjoy it.
@@sauce8277 As someone who hates "algorithm baiting" I'm glad to see more people like MuteAce just do what he thinks is right, I generally try to do things I personally like then just try to sprice up Likes/Subs/Views/Retention
I think the way in which you convey a character's strength and weaknesses (or lack of) in terms of the greater view of the game shows you are one of the most knowledgeable players. A lot of top players can narrow down cloud's strengths (as they should be able to) but you actually acknowledging his lack of variance in pressure as a main point as to why he's not higher is nice to hear. This is just one example, but I really appreciated how this tier list was done. There'll never be a fully objective tier list but I can tell you tried your hardest to actually go off of current results and potential. This just reinforces why you're one of the best fundamental/neutral players in the game, because it takes a lot of knowledge to play that way. Off topic, but have you tried other fighting games? Your style of play and view of the game could make you really great at picking up new ones if you ever wanted to try them. Could make for some fun content as well!
have never tried a different fighter besides just hitting some combos in tekken 8 training mode beta lol. appreciate it! i try to use my knowledge for relative good.
@MuteAce I think coney brought this up when you were on comms at the lmmm pre local, but whenever there's an off season or something you should try melee or PM. You have fundies enough that you might have a whole talent you don't know you have Also melee peach is funny cause she's still super technical when she wants to be with like 5 different types of float, but she also has "glue" in her turnips and dsmash and throw combos and everything Also look at mokys peach combos they're ridiculous Anyway yeah you're like my favourite player rn, keep clutching sets and thinking about the game
I think Shulk is just not nearly as good as Mute thinks. There's a reason if barely any Shulk does amazingly with the character, if even Ramses who is one of the best coaches in the world, has amazing practice whenever he wants because he lives in the Netherlands never made a serious splash with the character you know something's up.
@@Mattroid99 Practice in NL is not amazing at all + I have a job. I have very little playtime compared to the top level European players let alone the US wifi grinders. I also have some physical limitations that prevent me from performing well in tournament unfortunately.
As a G&W player, I always found it weird that people STILL think he gets hardcountered by swordies. Neutral isn't that difficult for G&W and his advantage and edgeguarding game against them are insane. He juggles most of them super easier and he can edgeguard them very well and most of them can't really deal with Chef ledgetraps. It doesn't help that the commentators STILL keep the narrative alive. He goes even with most of them and arguably beats Sephiroth, and Swordies were constantly said to be the main thing holding him back when that's not remotely true. Maister just gets thoroughly outplayed by MKLeo and a literal top 2 player and people for some reason act like that means he's hardcountered by swords even though Maister and Miya usually steamroll other sword players. It's ridiculous, lol.
Swordies are definitely his bad MU’s, that’s undeniable. However, people saying swordied completely invalidate Game and Watch is just not true, Cloud and Sephiroth are arguably even or +1 matchups for G&W
The thing that pushes gnw’s bucket over the edge is the fact that he keeps it for the next stock. You can usually avoid filling it 3 times a stock or even avoid getting hit by it that stock, but then you still have to worry about it the rest of the game 😭
Great video! I really like your Kazuya explanation! With his clearly over tuned strengths. But Mute also acknowledges some of the weaknesses. Which in my opinion is more fair for Kaz than a lot of people who just say he has no weakness.
Great list. I love hearing you talk about the truly broken stuff in this game. Also LOL up balls I think Joker does better vs G&W than you imply though. I think it's by far his best matchup vs the broken tier characters. Gun being the (I think?) only projectile in the game to not care about bucket is pretty huge. Shinymark sometimes entertains the idea of using him for the MU on twitter (and obviously there's Leo's crazy set record vs Maister + Tsubaki beating Miya sometimes)
Bayo two whole tiers above Palu and Roy is crazy, interesting to me how currently dependent on top results this list is. Like Kola started showing up for two tourneys and slapping people tf up, if he was playing more throughout the year would Roy be ranked higher? In a game with such comparatively few top players repping characters, I don’t really get this mindset But then there’s Shulk who’s just sooo broken that the results > theory thing doesn’t apply to him lol
Tbf I think Roy being rated so highly before was due to Kola popping off but I believe that was more Kola being built diff and lack of top level Roy (I think, not sure). I believe that led to people rating him so highly for a short time until people got better at dealing with his gameplan/pressure. people realized Roy has one pace and if he doesnt get it he kind of just flounders. Roy has no choice but to approach and while his pressure is amazing, it can be stuffed out often and I think a lot of characters are good at setting the pace to where Roy has to play the way they want him to. So when he constantly has to approach with his linear options, he is super prone to getting punished/reversaled/etc coupled with bad recovery he can just die off one bad option yet he constantly has to make those choices. Ofc this is just imo, I am no expert, just a Roy main who tries to understand the game as best I can🫡
have you considered that there are 3 top bayos (lima, bloom, tamaP), and only one kind of relevant roy? keep in mind, there are at least a bunch of other high level roys (goblin, mugen, alice, endeavor) who cant really do much with that character. not to mention that at the only 2 super majors kola went to (LMMM and PP8) , he was blessed with god brackets. i also find it funny how you just decided that this list was based only on results when its convenient for you (roy being low), but in the same breath, poke fun at shulk for being to high based on theory. mute literally spends the more time talking about theory than results. imo the only problem with the list is that palu is too low and should possibly switch with mega man. i lowkey think this is the most apparent instance of mute's bias, as he was one fo the leaders of "incineroar better than palu" movement. if this list really WAS a reflection of results, as you claim, palu should be top 5. this isnt even mentioning the fact that a purely results focused list would have cloud way higher.
I was thinking before Sonix started popping off this year that Sonic was underrated on some people's tier lists especially if you put him anywhere outside of top 5 and I'm glad people are finally realizing how oppressive Sonic's gameplan can be if you're efficient enough. And I don't even know if there's a solid answer to circlecamping for some characters, if he's camping it's pretty hard to get a solid hit or confirm on him to kill sometimes and you're also trying to keep up with him while doing that at the same time so I don't even know.
I appreciate your knowledge on some pretty uncommon characters. It was in one of the other videos but you had so much to say about mii gunner where anyone else making a tier list would say uhh idk miis don't count
My hot take is that any character that can change form, be it Pokemon Trainer, Aegis, or even Joker and Arsene, will always fall off more and more as the meta progresses because characters like that have more obviously designated weaknesses
Most of the characters that go even with Game and Watch have a good way to mix up a high recovery at disadvantage (zss, bayo, shulk). If you don't, he can cover all three recovery options for free. Bacon automatically covers neutral getup. He can do it from the position you would roll to if you do roll get up. Then if you do jump getup, he up air juggles you.
I love hearing Mute’s perspective always, and I genuinely think this list is better than most other top players - prob my fav so far. Diddy Kong is in the CORRECT tier :) I wish this list applied to me more tho - feel like this list doesn't apply to my skill level along with playing online. I’m like ‘okay’ at this game. I’ve hit my skill ceiling and can’t really get better tbh - and I’m okay with that. But the chars that wreak havoc within my skill-level are NOT Sheik, fox, pikachu, wario, diddy kong, etc. It's never the chars with small hitboxes who require more precision and execution and can't just mash and not get punished. I feel like the true, intermediate-online meta is unpunishable, mashable, big hitbox coverage tbh. for me at least
Thank you for placing Bayo, Wario and Fox as high as they are and for not placing Cloud in Top 10. Bayo is super meta-relevant right now, Fox and Wario are really broken beyond just Gluto and Light / Kaninabe...and Cloud despite having a busted Neutral Game is so much more exploitable than other characters.
I think a big problem of grinding with shulk is that he SUCKS online. He already has slow frame data and it becomes attrocious if you add the endlag for online. Like, ive tried and its legitimately rough
I can't believe MuteAce is one of the VERY few people who actually says "Hey, maybe it's not that Aegis players all suck. Maybe the character just isn't that good." You would assume that a super broken character that's easy to play and is piloted by some of the best players would do MUCH better than it does. It feels like you have to whisper these words in this community, but...maybe she's just not that good. *gasp*
@@legrandliseurtri7495 I didn't say he said they were bad. But considering what the community in general says about the character, 6th place is VERY low. It's usually considered the best, second only to Steve, and in some cases even up there with him. Saying that any character not called Steve is better than Aegis is almost a sin.
I’m glad I’m not the only one who thinks bayo is absolutely broken. Wish you also mentioned her killing jab AND forward throw. Who thought this was good character design 😭😭
@@casablancahunter1606I see everyone downplaying bayo in this game just because she isn’t smash 4 bayo. She’s really good in this game and I use “broken” very loosely lol
I feel as though nintendo over tuned the increased length on witch time vs projectiles as she can often punish you from half way across the stage from it.
I’m not a top player so definitely don’t know the game as well as someone like MiteAce, but I really don’t see how Shulk is that good. I feel like shulk isn’t consistent enough.
Im just happy that the vast majority of wifi players who play the top 5 are rarely very good. I'm genuinely more worried about fighting a Jiggly Puff or Donkey Kong than a Steve or Kazuya online, at least i know you had to play pretty well as jiggly or DK to get up in the ranks, where most Steve and Kazuya players are either cheese lords, or just decent enough to be able to abuse the stats, but not good enough to actually use the tool kits even close to optimally. And Sonic players are the most likely SD at somepoint, and that's always funny. I know it's all about the scale of player level, and bracket is completely different than online randos. But it's still gratifying to know that some people play the best characters in the spirit of being a "sweaty try-hard"and still suck.
The Sonic hitboxes just cement it further that Sakurai and his team went out of their way to make uninteractive characters way better than everyone else. Sonic's fair/fsmash legit out hitboxes most Belmont moves.
Mute, you are one of the most knowledgeable players in this game and I value your opinions a lot. However, no one can convince me that bayo is top 20. Top 30? Definitely. I think Lima and bloom are JUST. THAT. GOOD. I also think Lima is top 20 in the world skill wise, so…
Another Bayo just got top 2 at a Japanese tournament today taking a set off of Miya and going to game 5 in the reset. Also not sure if she’s too 20 but this character is just really strong in this meta
TamaP has just beaten Yaura, Miya, Shuton today, her punish game and playstyle works really well in this meta where high punish game is much more prominent
@@royd.6021it's not even just having an insane punish that's strong, that being so much more common place means characters with great disadvantage tools that can /also/ hit crazy damage or kill confirms are the ones who are defining top tier in this meta. Bayo excels at everything that's good right now
I do agree that bayo is good in this meta, but you also have to realize that Japan has a new dark horse every other week. Hero, banjo, joker (insert any other character we think sucks here), lucario… we might not see this bayo do as well in the future, but of course, as a bayo fan, I hope I’m wrong.
@@guilejustguile1647 It's the same bayo that beat Acola twice at some local. And I think it's also the same bayo who upset Tea at Kagaribi 10 a while ago. I would be very surprised if we don't see more of him. Also, why are you mentionning banjo as a dark horse? Toriguri is actually pretty consistent with him. He's already made top 8 twice.
He has a positive mu on Steve and ROB and look of the other meta characters. Doesn’t really matter if his losing mus are lower tier characters like DK and Bowser
But Sonix, Ken and Wrath have all been playing Sonic for years and have all had done well for years too; Sonix is now pulling ahead of them by doing even better than they ever have, so it does feel a bit like he's one of a kind. One also has to consider that the character isn't that popular and doesn't have that much success at lower levels of competitive play, while Steve is literally the single most successful tournament character of the year. Also, Acola, Onin and Ddee kind of showed up out of nowhere with Steve in 2022. As did Jake and Yonni, and now Big Chungus(and I could name several other examples). A lot of previously nobodies started doing drastically better after picking up the character, in a way that I don't think Sonic, or any other characters, has done. Sure, Acola is the most consistent among them by a large margin. But I think it's telling that Onin's peak is arguably better than any of Acola's peaks, with his dominant smash con 2022 run against many top players. Meanwhile, Sonix was the first person to ever win an Ultimate supermajor with Sonic, and he's still the only one to do so. Miya... well, he's the first instance of someone who has already become a top player with another character deciding to invest time into Steve. In a Watch the throne interview, when asked why he's playing the characters he's playing, he stated that it was because G&W and Steve are the easiest characters to practice online in his opinion. And now Dabuz decided to pick up Steve too, and not Sonic. I think Miya could win a major or even a supermajor going solo Steve right now if he wanted to, and Dabuz might reach that point in a few months if he commits to Steve. So we already have three Steve players able to win supermajors, with a fourth one that might be coming soon, vs one Sonic player able to win supermajors and two Sonic players able to win normal majors.
He beats Game and Watch with a -2 matchup for G&W and has a rather decent matchup chart, he is top 20. However, I think he’s more of a secondary character like Aegis
Ive always found it funny how ppl over rate aegis, and call them easy. Yeah theyre broken, but mythra is actually very hard to play, her moves do like no damage which means you really have to hit all your combos, and they die SO easily its insane. And despite having pyra, they actually kinda struggle to kill since they dont have a kill throw and pyra is just so slow and telegraphed that often she just gets destroyed before landing a hit. The character is still amazing dont get me wrong, but they are not easy lol. if they were easy, leo wouldnt be getting washed with them
Leo's aegis getting washed is more on leo than the character, his entire character roster is not as strong as people claim to be since they want him to somehow know every answer to the meta lmao
People need to chill on Ike. I get that against some certain characters once you've passed the toddler test its kind of all the same from bottom to mid up, but dude he's definitely better than that. No character who swings aerials that big and fast can be less than mid
The aerials aren't really fast, they have a lot of startup, especially when he needs to hit below him. Also all his big swinging Aerials are still smaller or barely on par witht Cloud, Corrin and Shulk's Aerials. Yet the first two have much better aerial drift and Shulk's aerials are about 50% larger (+Monado), and all of them have less landing lag on their big sweeping aerials or even Auto-cancel out of SH. Ike at most is Mid Tier
@@thecapitalisticdictator2256 Yeah and that's the only thing keeping him balanced, the same goes for the other characters you named. You don't give big swords low start up. They're still very belligerent and not as easy to deal with as people make it out to be. For how big they are, yes they are pretty fast. It's a combination of nobody playing Ike anymore + nobody really caring about rankings in the lower ends. Ike has a solid kit, he's low high tier imo.
@lokks2130 Yes, but you're the one who said he "swings aerials that big and fast". "for how big they are, yes that are pretty fast", means that they aren't big and fast XD. Anyway ill just take it that you conceded your point. And read closer, I never said the other characters didnt have high startup, I said they have lower landing lag/better Auto-cancelling, better Aerial Drift (Cloud & Corrin) and way more reach (Shulk) than Ike. plenty of players play Ike, almost every state has a Ike with Solid fundamentals, he's just bad. No way lower high tier lol. If you lose to an Ike you just got outplayed, he doesn't have the stats/tools Cloud, Corrin & Shulk have all with just as big if not bigger aerials
@@thecapitalisticdictator2256 Yes, and I don't take that back. Slow start up on a big move is fine, range compensates. All you need is low end lag for a pretty belligerent and annoying character, which Ike has regardless of the characters closer to top tier you named. If you got "concede" out of that, then that's pretty sad. They indeed do. Ike's still fine in those departments relative to the size of his moves though. You're talking about local level? I don't live in the States, so I can't verify that. The only one I know is Yez who is very solid but usually MIA and that one Ike from Japan who beat Gackt. He's a very rare pick. "You're just getting outplayed" yeah, that's lower high tier. Characters in that tier aren't THAT good. They're just decent.
@lokks2130 hey man everyone can check that you're wrong and im right, just by going through ultimate frame data stats. And if you didn't concede your point, why don't you continue saying Ike's aerials are "big and fast", rather than "fast for how big they are"? Finally I guess you're not old enough to remember, but lots of people played Ike at the beginning of Ultimate. That's why every state has an Ike. But despite him having such a large and passionate player base, his results have fallen into an eternal abyss. Even Yez, who you mentioned, quit the game pretty much because he was getting emotionally heated by how difficult the character was to play and get a win on anyone who isn't just a 2-2er. Literally Doc had gotten more recent and better results than Ike at majors. The character isn't good. And no plenty of low high tiers are amazing counterpicks that can help you beat a player without you having to better player them to get a win, or at least beat the majority of mid tiers and low tiers. Ike barely beats low tiers and goes even/slightly loses to everyone above
There is genuinely not a single character I hate fighting in this game more than snake. Want to combo him, better be literally frame perfect or he frame one escapes. Want to hit his shield, well if he has grenade you just can’t unless you want to blow up. Want to edgeguard him, well he’s going high so you can’t, hopefully you read his landing options and can start a juggle. It’s not that nothing he does has counter play, it’s just that everything he does is so unfun that playing around it isn’t enjoyable in the first place.
@@killercore007yeah but a big ass up tilt and nikita are arguably top 1 moves for their categories. I think he’s stronger or even with Game and Watch, or Rob. He deserves top 3 or top 4
You don’t understand Nade. Everyone says it’s a frame one get out of combo move. It’s a frame one get out of combo still take the move that hit nade plus even more damage from nade (more than the opponent) and still stay in mid disadvantage. But yes. Blame the character because you’re bad at the mu.
@@Mangler_ Just because snake takes a lot of damage doesn’t mean it’s not worth it a lot of the time to escape. He gets put in disadvantage but that’s better than being in the middle of a combo or string. It’s not a viable option to spam out of every single combo of course but it’s still useful and something snake players use at top level. And it’s not a completely broken tool, that wasn’t my point, it’s just annoying. Like I said most of the things he does have counter play, that counter play is just less fun than playing the game normally. Yes I can just hit him if he pulls grenade during a combo and then juggle him from there, but it’s more fun to just be able to do my combos. If he pulls grenade in neutral, it’s easy to just wait it out rather than trying to hit his shield and getting punished for it, it just slows down the pace of the match in a way that isn’t fun. And also snake is both frequently rated as a top tier and as one of the most annoying characters to fight, this isn’t just a me thing. I will say, he’s no longer my least favorite (sonic or Samus now) and I think that’s at least in part that I’ve gotten better at fighting him. So I don’t think it’s wrong to say that why I used to find him so frustrating was in part matchup inexperience, but there’s a ton of things that are annoying about the character himself too and you can’t deny that.
@@JacobPDeIiNoNi There’s annoying things about every character. Point is, snakes still one of the hardest characters to play. And I’m telling you as a snake main, nade out of combos isn’t always the smartest thing to do. Not to mention comboing with him isn’t traditional like others because it’s specific, and requires timing and spacing. I can’t just grab someone and do 80 or hit someone and then do 80. And to counter your other point, a lot of top players think he’s one of the hardest characters to play. I can pull that top player card too.
People still think Shulk is one of the best characters even though he has not topped in any tournament since the beginning of Ultimate? the whole "yes, shulk, the potential" that doesn't exist 5 years later.
@@benross9174 To be fair, every time I watch a Dabuz bayo match, I always scream at the choices Dabuz does. Olimar ABSOLUTELY has the tools to beat, if not straight-up, demolish Bayo, and he just does the same retreating whistle and fish for purple Strat that never works for him. Lima labs bayo WAYY more than Dabuz labs olimar/minmin and nobody can tell me otherwise.
Wario is ultimates Melee-jiggly puff. He’s the only one of his kind. Has the best Air game and a “rest” except he’s very heavy reducing weakness. Meaning, if you were to make “the four corners of archetype” he would be the best in air while say Fox in ground and so on for others. These characters have bad Matchups but being they are the best of their archetype, it means it’s mostly about outplaying the other peak archetypes since other characters can’t play their game better then them.
@@sauce8277 wario's air game is not that good in this game. the strength of his air mobility is the mind games he can play with his drift and fast falling, but if you compare his buttons and frame advantage he has on average it's not even that good in this game compared to any sword character. he doesn't have a disjointed horizontal aerial that is almost impossible to challenge, all of his air normals tend to whiff on dashing characters while rising, etc if he lands on the top of your shield he's gonna be like -10 and punishable with almost anything, those buttons are good if you don't expect them but in the current meta a lot of his tools just aren't really that good He's more of a generalist character than an extreme archetype too, idk why you bring that up, fox doesn't even have the best ground game, Rob and Little Mac have better ones
@@shavingrabbid You are misunderstanding what outplaying is. Having a clear flowchart to over power your opponent isn’t outplaying them. …A perfect safety. A perfect poke. A perfect projectile. Outplaying is about rotating your OPTIONS and playing the Rock Paper Scissors and hoping your cards are played correctly. There is no guarantee for a W even if both players know the MU 100%. What being the best or only one of your kind means is most characters are forced to respect his mix of air speed and acceleration. Sure his lack of safety may reduce a 50/50’s or 30/30/30’s reward and add more risk. But the point is, you can’t shut down the persons game because they are the best of their archetype. It’s up to Gluto to force his archetype’s will upon you and then make that 50/50 count. And he does because the point is the OPTIONS are almost always possible.
@@shavingrabbid Sorry you feel that way. From my experience, what that tells me is you actually don’t grasp it. So yea it’ll look like chaos to you. Thanks for taking the time to read, anyways.
Literally nobody picks up Snake. Tf are you on about? Nobody plays that character except for dedicated solo mains. He’s not a pick up and play character.
I feel like zoners in smash feel so much worse to fight than in other fighting games due to the length of games. Really does make it unfortunate when a whole archetype becomes even more frustrating due to outside factors
@@RealBroccoliHour while I agree with your definition it doesn't make it any better, the strategy is very degenerate, hit and run is a disgrace to all the rushdown characters
@@mglikeabossplaysMC it feels worse because their recovery and survivability is too high for their risk, so for them is all reward and 0 risk, length of the game isn't a problem, watching olimar or min min isn't as bad because they risk when get approached
