My Pupil Failed a Test For Driving Safely! 

@@MrHalfPintSam Was that supposed to be funny..? It wasn't. Have you ever seen the results of a crash involving a drunk driver..? 😡

@@MrHalfPintSam Either your sense of humour is way off base or you're dangerous and irresponsible. Or possibly both. Either way, I hope you're never on the same road as me or any of my friends or family. Have a nice evening.

Exactly. There is no way anyone can learn the local peculiarites of every weird intersection sequence in teh country. The examinee was safe and clear, and arguably quite reasonable in his/her assessment. To fail on that seems extremely harsh.

​@MrHalfPintSam you're not funny but the person who thinks you're legit is funny lmao

Yeah, also it's suspicious how the test routes purposefully exclude that one particular combination of exits Ashley mentioned. What does that imply? If you happen to need to take that route, then you shouldn't because, according to them, you can't do it safely? And how are we supposed to know that?

Bingo!

Unfortunately, it also comes down to bad road design. Confusion would be avoided just by modifying the road markings and an additional direction sign guiding drivers in to the correct lane.

Doubt it. My instructor said the same thing back in 2006 and before that, my dad’s instructor said the same thing back in 1983 and also, my uncles instructor said the same back in 1986. You’re not taught to drive, you’re taught to pass a test, and my instructor said you only start to learn how to properly drive when you get out on the road by yourself. So no, the system will never change.

⁠@@mortyc137a2I think that is really down to the instructor. All the evidence of somebody like Ashley is that his online communication is about driving safely - obviously the purpose at hand is to pass the test, but with assessment skills rather than rote learning. My instructor told he to get out and practice and build my experience once I passed but, importantly, I had learnt to ‘drive’. He also advised me to get in touch with IAM (I didn’t) once I had built my confidence and to keep learning. My concern with the message of ‘now go and learn to drive’ message after passing is that it gives licence to people to drop a lot of the discipline of driving to test standard, and to ‘learn’ by assuming miles clocked up is ‘experience’. On the contrary: by definition, test standard is the _minimum_ standard acceptable.

Although without local knowledge, I would expect to be in the right lane when told to turn right at the roundabout. It seems more like they assume a lack of general local knowledge, but some specific local knowledge of where you could go "wrong".

Absolutely: safe and legal driving should not be failing. However, if the examiner said "turn right, taking the second exit", then he has communicated his expectation (however flawed) and the required information is available to the student.

Looked perfectly safe to me. I feel bad for the student who will now have to wait months for another test.

⁠@@bloodspatteredguitarFair enough, if the examiner said to turn right. With no local knowledge, the pupil might have needed to approach from “6 o’clock” and exit towards “3 o’clock” so it could well have been more of a right turn (making the left hand lane less appropriate). But it seems a cheap trap to fail people for doing that, when the sign on approach suggests it’s “straight ahead” x2 and there was no “left turn only” paint on the road, so (if given a free choice) both lanes are fine.

Exactly, local knowledge should be required to pass a test. Was it a *safe and legal* manoeuvre ?… Yes fine, then bloody well pass them and stop being ridiculous.

There's also 2 lanes going left at the roundabout though

@@as37g10 true but you can’t turn left from a right lane

An earlier one of your videos says to approach in right hand lane for this exact manoeuvre just as you’ve said is wrong now. I remember shouting at my iPad, then asking my husband if he thought the right-hand lane was correct and he thought yes but I said route for both roundabouts is essentially straight on, not a right turn at the second one and left lane for both is better, rather than having a car on your inside also turning left which is better avoided especially now as cyclists and horses can go round a roundabout to turn right from the left hand lane. That’s my tuppence worth.

@@benfiller3157you have fallen for the trap of believing Townsend to Townsend is a left turn whilst accepting that Townsend to Utting (the one after The Townsend continuation) is somehow allowable in the left lane 😮

Nope I’m just reading the road and lack of road markings of someone who has never driven there. Would 100% do it as the pupil did and I’m certain the vast majority would also.

Hmmm if it's safe and legal should be fine.

In my country, even if you took the wrong lane once, you would not fail. As long as you solved it in a safe and legal manner. That is how it should be in my opinion. In this case he technically did not even took the wrong lane. Just not the lane they wanted him to take.

@@ronrolfsen3977 I recently passed a class 1 Lorry test I got 0 minors too the examiner at the end pulled me up on the fact I made life slightly more difficult for myself at one of the roundabouts by going round in a lane that was more difficult in an artic, I wasn't marked down because the examiner said I handled it fine and it was safe and legal. The fact that the learner failed for what they did in this video is insane.

@@gravemind6536 Agree, the student driver was entirely consistent in the choice of lane lane - what is there to complain about, when in effect going straight on in the "cautious" line through the route. To be in the "outer lane" throughout, (the "pass" route) would be the "white van" route, but both are entirely correct.

It should have been a minor. But when pedants are running the show, you get things like this happen.

Ha! Why would someone overtake you through a deep puddle? Some common sense please.

@@ric4397 They said undertake not overtake. They failed the test because they were avoiding the puddle which could've resulted in slowing down a car behind in the lane they were avoiding the puddle on. If they done it safely and checked mirrors and didn't slow or make anyone have to brake then it shouldn't be a major. As a matter of fact you are taught in driving school to avoid puddles because you can't see how deep they really are

@@Yooki97 Agreed, this is no different than moving to avoid a parked car on the side of the road.

@@re_stricted Yes, but whether passing a nother motor vehicle or bioycle, the overtake should not be excessively wide so as to form room to be undertaken.

I failed my first test, I waited 8 minutes to get onto a 2 lane roundabout that went onto a dual carriageway with only one lane, traffic was horrendous and nobody let me out because it was in a learner car, the examiner told me I should’ve just started pushing out and somebody would let me out…

Exactly, that's pretty much how I deal with double roundabouts if there are no markings to signal which way lanes are heading.

The Highway Code (Rule 186) states - When taking any intermediate exit, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise select the appropriate lane on approach to the roundabout you should not normally need to signal on approach stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want. the reason why there are no road markings saying left only on the approach to the round-about is because there is 2 or more lanes to choose from on the exit to the left. if it is a single lane only to the left then the road markings would be left or pointing in the direction of the first exit, and if Ashley was right on it being left only, the only way traffic in the right hand lane would be able to turn left is if they also have road markings in their lane saying that they can turn left also.

I agree!

But what if the 2nd exit was a single lane? Without local knowledge, should you use the left lane or the right lane? (Genuine question, I'm not sure the answer)

@@hippopotamus86 again, either lane will do except inner lane is safer. If you take lane 2 through the first and second roundabout, and the final exit is single lane, you have to do a merge back into lane 1 to take that exit. There is a risk of somebody being too close on the nearside so watching out for that is important.

I had exactly the same thoughts when I watched it. As long as it is legal, safe, and doesn't confuse or inconvenience other road users then there should be no problem with it.

Didn't follow the examiners instruction to use the right lane?

The first thing I noticed was _perhaps_ undue hesitation when approaching the first roundabout. The car appears to slow and nearly stop when there is clearly nothing approaching from the right. But that would likely just have been a minor.

you're reply is wrong, and so are the replies before mine, rule 186 of the highway code states left lane is left turn only "unless road signs and markings say otherwise", the lack of road markings saying left turn only is because there is 2 lanes to choose from on the exit to the left. it has been well hidden under round-about rules for decades, and unless you remember it, then you would have failed sorry to say. but would agree it is a c***y move by the driving examiner when there is nobody around, and the student is under pressure of an exam, and there is enough room on the round-about to turn right, and be in the left lane, but that is what they test for is paying attention to road signs and markings, and looking for ways to fail a student. like had one examiner say take the 7th exit off the round-about. so there I am the round-about has 5 legal exits, so I knew he was being awkward, in the middle of rush hour in the morning, and me doing my LGV driving test so not the kind of thing to swing all the way around a narrow round-about, turns out to be the 4th exit as he was counting the none legal (wrong direction) exits as well because there is a flyover carriageway over the top that we just pulled off and the slip roads counting as 2 for each side of the round-about even though 2 of those would be breaking the law if I had turned up them, but waited until he could point out which junction he wanted me to take once in the correct lane, and nearly on the round-about.

@@michaelthomas3646 that is a wrong interpretation of rule 186. it says to only use the left lane to turn left, not that the left lane is the only lane to turn left. so traffic turning left must be in the left. traffic going ahead can use any appropriate lane, including the left lane.

It takes a lot for examiners to be able to change their guidance based on local quirks. In my first test, I refused to carry out a request to pull over on the left of a particular road as I knew there wasn't anywhere I could do that without becoming an unnecessary obstruction (a lot of cars parked on my right and so I would have had to become a chicane forcing any other drivers to negotiate around me and said parked cars). The examiner did not like that and added it to the list of what they didnt like. I failed but the next test, I noticed a new sign up saying that they will not be doing anymore manoeuvres on this particular road so it's likely that someone at some level saw the same issues and risks. Smashed the next test.

while I would like to agree it is one that has caught many learners out in the passed, and will continue to do so until they are taught that anything upto 12 o'clock position is left turn, and anything passed 12 o'clock position is classed as turning right, and turning right from a left lane is classed as breaking rule 186 "unless road signs tell you otherwise" it is unfair on the learner as it wasn't totally the learners fault as only being a spit passed 12 o'clock is really hard to determine especially on a double round-about sign, and when you got other things to think about as well. but many learners have failed in the passed, and pretty sure many others in the future will fail for the same thing, and the instructor should know this rule.

​@@michaelthomas3646Yes! While I have sympathy with Ashley's position and that of his pupil, I too was taught on my bus-driver training that anything even fractionally beyond the 12 o'clock position on the roundabout sign should be conducted as a right turn. You do sometimes see 'straight on' routes intentionally signed just a few minutes after 12 o'clock to give exactly this prompt.

Wait, so the instructor (presumably riding in the back seat) reached forward to sound the horn during a test? That sounds unprofessional to me, unless I'm missing something in your description. Or did you mean to say the Examiner reached for the horn? Again, that seems unprofessional on the examiner's part.

@@Eric_Hunt194 The story I was told the examiner sounded the horn at the taxi and was annoyed that he had cut them up, however he still failed the student.

so you would know rule 186 then, while the student did not disrupt the flow being in the left lane, the rule says that left lane is left turn only, "unless road signs and marking say otherwise", but the lack of markings on the road is because left turn has 2 lanes to choose from on the left exit, whereas a single lane would have left arrows on the approach to the round-about, that is why the learner failed I am 100% sure, because the 2nd round-about is off to the right of the first round-about, and more than 12 o'clock position. it is a c***y move by the examiner, they want students to fail, so they will look for ways to make students fail when they aren't aware of what is happening like this, but the examiner should have said why the student failed to the student if not to Ashley.

Failing a test for something like this must be heartbreaking, I feel bad for the fella. Do you also teach around this area

As long as it is not illegal to do I can understand that way of thinking. He solved his mistake in a legal and safe manner. So why not. If it is illegal it should not matter whatever or not there was a conflict with other traffic. I believe in the UK it is not illegal to do this right?

@@ronrolfsen3977 I think if you taking the 3rd exit (assuming a normal evenly-spaced 4-way roundabout) from the left lane it would be borderline illegal and dangerous (if there's other vehicles around of course). I would certainly fail a driver for doing this in a test. Not sure if there's an explicit law covering this one, probably falls under the "driving without due care and attention" catch-all law.

Meadowhall roundabout in Sheffield is a bit like this. Coming out of Sheff I take the middle lane on approach, then stay in that lane all the way to the 3rd exit. The first time I drove in the 3rd lane, thinking that was needed to take the 3rd exit, but I just had to go round again, and they drive too fast and tight on that roundabout anyway so you have no chance at changing lanes.

I did the same on my test 9 years ago. In my head I was still at 12 o'clock line, but in reality it was after that and it was right hand "turn". My test was stopped immediately and I was told I'm danger to myself and other road users (I was taking motorcycle licence). There were not a vehicle besides me.

@@davem9204 But it would only fall under the "driving without due care and attention" if there was actually a conflict with other traffic. Correcting a mistake in a safe and legal manner is not "driving without due care and attention".

And a recent trend in keeping right turn signal on whilst exiting left.

That must be the reason for the policy. Knowing that learners (arguably) have poorer reaction time, keep them on the right hand side where possible and away from other people's sudden left turns.

The Highway Code (Rule 186) states - When taking any intermediate exit, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise select the appropriate lane on approach to the roundabout you should not normally need to signal on approach stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want. Your interpretation does not appear to be correct.

@@donmacdonagreed, it is technically a right turn in the left lane due to the exit being passed 12 o'clock even if it is by a hairs margin, and one that has, and probably always will catch learners out in the future as well. unfair on the learner not having it explained to them after the test on what they did wrong, and shameful on Ashley not knowing the highway code like the back of his hand, while not remembering the code number as anyone can forget that, Ashley should have known the rule itself. and the other downside is the learner had the double round-about sign hiding the fact that the 2nd round-about is classed as a right turn off the first round-about.

​@@michaelthomas3646 It would be far more dangerous to do what the highway code tells you on this particular roundabout so clearly something is wrong in the highway code. You can clearly see in the video the lane layout, how people are using that lane layout, the logic of how they are using and it works perfectly well. Just because something is written down doesn’t make it correct, its just people applying something called common sense, which is also something the people at organisations like the DVSA are in short supply of.

That's totally unfair on the pupils and is taking away what could be a better option for flow etc and a little bit is teaching to ignore the road layout. Surely we all use the road as marked out safely.

I would make an exception for "making progress" though. It's reasonably that examiners want you to make progress quickly enough, otherwise they can't measure your driving skill. It's safe to sit in a parked car all day without moving it but you wouldn't pass a driving test doing that.

As we all know, driving is not black and white, therefore it is the case that hard and fast judgements would be unfait and unattainable.

That must have been a very long time ago :) I had my test 9 years ago, and we were taught 12 o'clock rule: If the exit you require is 12 o'clock or before you need the left hand lane.

@@PovilasPanavas It was in the early 90's.

@@JoannaHammondI started my lessons in 93, and 100% in the highway code back then that left lane is 1st exit on a 2 exit round-about whereby 1st exit is normally classed as left, and 2nd exit is classed as straight on or right as normally passed the 12 o'clok. and while can't remember the highway code number specifically from the highway code from 30 years ago, it is rule 186 in the modern highway code that states you are not allowed to turn right or go passed the first junction in the left hand lane "unless road markings and signs tell you otherwise". the lack of road markings before the round-about means there is a minimum or 2 lanes to choose from on the exit left, whereas 1 single lane would be marked as left turn only before the approach to the first round-about. but you are right on your thinking for a 4 or more direction round-about being left lane for straight on and left, or right hand lane for right or a u-turn to go back the way you came "unless road markings and signs say otherwise". but since passing my driving test my local council have changed the road markings so that you can turn right on a round-about in the left hand lane, and on a lot more than one occassion so that it allows for better traffic flow to get to the motorway from any part of my town, so constantly having to watch out for signs to make sure you don't cut someone else up if new to the area especially knowing the old highway code.

Sadly not every roundabout follows that rule. One near me is right hand land for straight over, left hand lane is left only, many drivers get caught out because they don't look at the signs or road marking which clearly show how to use the roundabout...

while it is true for 2nd exit to be up to 2 o'clock on a number of roads I have encountered in my 30 years of driving, what matters in this situation is the road markings vs. number of exits on the round-about, and where they are in relation to 6 - 12 o'clock, and what 12 to 6 o'clok is counted as for exits. the highway code does state rule 186, and that is only use left lane for turning left, and right hand lane for turning right with the icing on the cake being "unless road signs tell you otherwise". and while a spit passed 12 o'clock that means the learner did turn right on the first round-about in the left lane. even though the lane doesn't say specifically "left turn only", and the highways agency/council should be held liable for the test failure, and other signs like a wide open round-about to get 2 vehicles around safely for driving straight on even if it is fractionally to the right, it is still against rule 186.

@@michaelthomas3646 Reference rule 186, it does not state that.

Hesitation is such a poorly assessed part of the test. I held back from a VERY badly behaved cyclist on my test in Barry and eventually he started going straight, on Broad Street, but as I finally trusted him enough to make an overtake a bus appeared over the next crest, some distance away. Rather than fudge the judgement that I could get out and back in before the bus (risky to me and cyclist) I aborted the overtake. "you can always abort an overtake." nope - not to my examiner. I think I was lucky he didn't put in a fail for it because he was not impressed by me not risking the cyclist and my life.

while you are right that you would need to straddle the lanes with a truck, the highway code rule 186 states left lane is left only, and right lane is for turning right "unless road signs and/or road markings say otherwise", and that is where the learner failed their test as even though hidden on the road sign the 2nd round-about is to the right even by a whisker, because it is more than 12 o'clock position leaving the first round-about.

I don't disagree that the learner done it in a safe manner, and the fact the round-about layout is such that the learner didn't/wasn't forced to cut up the round-about due to the road being wide enough for 2 lanes of traffic to allow long vehicles to get around it without getting stuck. and the fact that part of the driving test, and driving on a daily basis is the fact you are supposed to watch out for someone in the wrong lane or changing their mind at last second. and that the highway code is a guidence unless it says "Should"/"Should Not" or "Must"/"Must Not", but at the end of the day it is totally up to the examiner on whether a student passes or fails, and while Ashley teaches this way for best flow of traffic, then he could also see a lot more people fail for the same thing when the lanes don't have specific directions marked on them. and yes it is normal for a novice driver, and also an experienced driver who is flustered in a new area to make this mistake, by listening to their sat-nav instead of the highway code. and listening to the sat-nav is only a guidence tool, it does not control the car or person behind the wheel to suddenly take an extremely scenic route through a field of cattle, but think the closed gate might be an indication that something is not right here, or at least hope so!! like had my sat-nav on to seperate occassions: 1) say drive straight on which the road bears sharp left, but a junction for a country lane directly straight on, and then turn around and say please make a u-turn where safe. because it meant for me to go down the country lane, and still not changed in probably 10 years of TomTom updates. 2) road bears sharp left (less than 10 mph speed in both directions in a car) and telling me to turn left. so therefore the junction on the right slightly offset to give them a better view of the road in both directions, with a giveway lines must be straight on? or 3) oh yeah speed limits was another like got a 60 mph speed limit on the satnav in a 30 mph zone, so do you blame the sat-nav when you get a speeding ticket for doing double the speed? although due to the 20 mph speed limit restrictions there are a lot more 30 mph repeater signs here in Wales due to 20 being the "normal default speed limit".

The road sign needs be accurate. I would always use the left hand lane approaching that, although I will say I have never seen a double roundabout in that configuration before so very unusual and should be taken into account by an instructor.

highway code rule 186 disagrees sorry to say.

@@michaelthomas3646 care to explain? to me its left lane the whole way. how does rule 186 disagree?

2nd exit or straight ahead is the left hand lane, unless otherwise stated on the road markings. Just because the examiner "wanted" them to use the right-hand lane, using the left is legal and safe. You can't read the instructors mind! I'd say both lanes were safe - but only if you know the area and know the positioning of the exit and that it's a dual carriageway. But if you don't know the area, you should use the left lane, as that is what is safe (you don't know exactly where the exit is and if it's a dual carriageway). What if the pupil didn't know the area and went "straight ahead" in the right hand lane? Wrong to fail. I wouldn't have been happy if I was the pupil.

>Also there are no road markings no signs stating you can’t do that. You've sort of got that back to front, and it is exactly why there is an issue here. The rules say you can only use the left hand lane for up to and including straight on *unless* marked otherwise. And as they interpret this as a right turn, and it's not marked that's what caused the issue here. >There should be signs and road markings stating that you can’t use the left lane to go straight/right. But in the absence of markings the default position (if you use their interpretation of 'right') already prohibits that. Basically you don't need markings to prohibit the movement, it's exactly the absence of those markings that already prohibits the movement based on their interpretation.

Same here. That's what I was taught. If you were unfamiliar with the area you would position yourself according to the approach sign.

I was taught not to think in terms of left-right but of 1st exit, 2nd exit etc. to avoid thinking you have to go in the right hand lane just because the 2nd exit is past 12 o'clock.

I was also told past 12 o'clock use right hand lane. In this example the exit is at 12 o'clock so I would always use the left lane.

@@hencole On the approach sign it shows it beyond the 12 o'clock position, so if you didn't know the roundabout and it's foibles, you should approach on the right hand side.

@@hencoleYou clearly did not pay attention to the video as on the sign it shows the exit just past 12 o'clock.

If you don’t follow the examiner’s instruction but do it safely you can still pass. If they say turn right and you accidentally turn left, I’m pretty sure it’s a pass. So all this student had to do was say ‘I thought you said straight on at the first roundabout, not right at the first roundabout’. Instant pass!

But Ashley just explained that the examiner's decision was the result of following the instructions given from the DVSA. I would assume that this examiner tries to follow those instructions consistently, and I doubt that can be blamed on a single bad day.

It's almost like the DVSA/some examiners expect you to have a co-pilot at all times after you pass, giving you specific directions on how to do everything like there is only one set way to do it... *sigh*

​@@123MondayTuesdayI was thinking this as well. It's pretty common knowledge that you don't fail for going the wrong way so I don't see how this is a fail since the pupil drove safely and correctly

I always wonder why companies with drivers don't operate periodic classroom and practical CPD and retraining especially when new HC rules come around or a new situation arises. The entire industry seems lackadaisical towards true safety - contrast with rail or air transport. The idea that the driving test makes you *competent* as well as qualified to drive for life is bananas.

Arrows on the ground? Most do. A lot of people would find road markings very useful. It's a shitty argument not to put them in for the people who would find them useful just because "most others wouldn't care" lol

I slowed down on a 30mph road because a young mother had just pushed her pushchair out between parked cars. She stopped with the pushchair well into the road. The car behind tooted me for slowing down, partly because he was also driving too close. I don't think he was actually aware of the pushchair. As I passed her, the idiot began to pass on my right at a junction and then turned right as he drew level. It left me wondering how such a poor driver would think they are good enough to tell others off for being a nuisance on the road.

@@johnnyfearlesszrx Loads of drivers like this now. Just impatient & think they're better then everyone else. I tend to stay far behind these drivers or let them overtake. They can have their own emergency without me involved lol

I stuck to my guns on my bike testin 1980. About lanes to use on a roundabout going straight on. He said right hand I said left hand and pointed out the hc said both. Passed.

They do this as they want the pupil to use the right lane on approach to the first roundabout to ‘protect’ the examiners from poor drivers who will assume driver using the left lane will go left, so the pull out and could be involved in an accident. There’s a similar situation at a local test that I’ve used many times, and they’ll get a fail for not indicating right if they use the left lane, when the road signs, examiners instructions and road markings define it as ahead. Maybe in @Ashley’s video, the cynic in me suspects it’s a deliberate ploy to ‘test’ the pupils, as picking the right lane on approach will encourage them make mistakes and leave in the left lane, thereby cutting drivers up……. but I’m old and cynical.

Failing for not overtaking? Nowhere in the law says you *must* overtake, it says you _may_ or _may not_ overtake.

@@erkinalp Yeah, he failed it under not keeping up with traffic... how dangerously overtaking means keeping up with traffic I do not know. Been driving nearly 10 years now and still think about it when someone brings up driving tests.

@@grita382I failed for not driving at the national speed limit on a rural single track road with countless blind bends and driveways everywhere. Apparently not driving AT the speed limit was a cause for failure... My instructor was fuming, he said it would be wreckless to even attempt to drive at 60mph down that road. over 20mph later I'm still angry at that lol.

I agree with you. The sign shows straight on being able to get to the motorway exit. The pupil continues around, past this exit. This would cut off any traffic in the right lane trying to get to the motorway. Local knowledge isn’t relevant as the sign for a roundabout is the first rule. Markings,arrows and local knowledge are secondary and often contradict.

I agree. I’m pretty sure the sign before the roundabouts tells the driver that both lanes go to the motorway, then the pupil turns right and cuts off any traffic that would be going to the motorway exit. This must be the fail.