Most "reactions" aren't raw reactions, they're predictions (or "guesses," which is a dirty word for some). You're expecting (predicting, guessing) that your opponent will do something, and you think about what you will do in response, and when they do it, you react accordingly. Raw reaction is only one part of it. People in gaming like to fetishize reaction times as though it's a purely physical and instinctual thing, something you either just have a talent for or don't; but there's actually a lot of conscious thought and practice (and lots of failure) that goes into developing the skill and knowledge to have good "reactions."
Fighting Games are rock paper scissors with 50 options instead of 3, but rock is still gonna beat 20 of them so you only gotta look out for the 20 Paper will beat
Sometimes it's a guess, sometimes it's knowledge, sometimes it's knowledge the opponent DOESN'T appear to have some knowledge and you can loop something abuse able. Weirdly the more balanced a fighting game is the more it looks random/like rps.
Good example of this is hit confirms. I explain a Hazama hitconfirm and people say I have to have good reactions, when in actual fact I have a default (it's blocked) and something I change to (it hits), then I Practise doing both so they're both set in muscle memory. Then I do them back to back. Then I do them with random enabled. Then I think 'is this guy likely to block this?' Like... is it an overhead hitconfirm and does this guy react badly to overheads. And basically it is still a guess and while training my responses helps, basically all I can do is reduce the mental stack. If I'm playing Clarinet and I'm busy looking at where my fingers go or struggling to read the music, there's no way I can react to the drums in my orchestra losing their rhythm. Taking the weight off your own shoulders is so important.
@@MH3Raiser That's good to tell beginners, but there are people with thousands of hours who already knew about all that and are still limited by reaction time, just like genetics limit your performance in physical sports. Esport pros in games like fighting games have an average reaction time of 150ms, which is even faster than formula 1 drivers.
@@guapjones5700 Yea I think it’s more a stigma thing. people see a big guy who happens to be a gamer they immediately think he must spend all his time in doors playing games.
What you said about teaching as a learning tool, that right there isn't said enough. After over a decade of teaching the English language, I know so much about its intricacies I scare myself. New teachers always wonder how I and other veteran teachers know our shit so well and the answer is simple: we've taught the language so much that it's become automatic. But it's not just that I'm teaching but also that I'm learning at the same time. Case in point, I got far better at blocking by explaining to some newbies why they must get comfortable with blocking and how blocking is usually going to be their go-to option until they know better. Great points as always, Sajam!
It probably helps that for a long time, I had planned to be a teacher! I really enjoy reading and discussing methods and styles of learning/teaching. Since most of my content is built around discussions or lectures, I think it's pretty similar to what most teachers do for lesson planning.
Sajam Definitely recommend you read a book called “Pedagogy of the Oppressed” by Paulo Freire. It’s a great book for all teachers that teaches you how to teach more effectively to the most vulnerable.
This is why I love it when someone asks me how to play the drums or guitar. I get to review the basics and it always leads me to a better understanding of the more advanced stuff I'm personally working on.
No lie, recently only started doing this because of him and yes, I have his kinda hair. Them Mediterranean genes, Sajam being French and me being Spanish, Italian and Greek.
I connect so much with this video. One of my friends refuse to play fighting games because reaction time, but he plays hard af rhythm games and super hard platformers. I always was baffled but don't know what to say. Now I know.
The thing about rhythm games and platformers though, is that they appear less daunting. They're also more streamlined. The game is telling you, "Do EXACTLY this and you win." A fighting game is way more spontaneous and trial and error. It LOOKS more intimidating.
@@rhondahoward8025 I know I'm 3 years late, but this was an awesome way to put it. I was like the original commentators friend until my early teens. However, I was dope at Amplitude XD Guitar Hero, DJ Hero, Crash Bandicoot, etc. Then I picked up the sticks for a fighting game and realized all that was almost identical. Then went on to realize that all games are kinda the same, in terms of "Here's some buttons. Press this to do that." It REALLY changes when you look at the kind of game it is. Fighting games, RPG's, MMORPG's, Platformers, etc. Which made me into a gamer, aha. Swinging back to the topic, Now here I am not being able to really fight anyone seriously XD Apart from one of my friends who is one of those "I can pick up and play most games" type of people, aha.
PSA: Most of the learning process actually happens while you're asleep, and frustration creates a flag in your memory that tells your brain to revisit that moment while you sleep. So if you can push through the frustration, you will learn significantly faster than if you stop playing every time you get frustrated.
What you're saying sounds rather contradictory; if frustration tells your brain to revisit the moment when asleep, that means you should put the game down and _go to sleep._
I've found this to be the case for many things. Tangibly speaking, executing tricky combos feels significantly easier after I've slept. I was learning a combo from the left but not so much from the right. It felt so weird and unnatural. A bit of time in practice and a day later, it felt just the same as the easy side and I can execute much better. I've found in puzzle games too that going away, sleeping and coming back often leads to a solution to the puzzle within minutes when before you were struggling for a long time. Don't sleep on the power of sleep.
This is my dilemma now. Here I am trying to understand if it was just too fast for me, aha. Never thinking "I haven't actually put in time in this game like I have other fighting games." I mainly play Tekken, but I started to want to get into this game. I've invested more into combos than learning the overall mechanics and Neutral. So now I have access to loops and high damage, I have zero opportunities to even perform those combos or even get damage. Now I'm resetting and starting from square one. Learning to block and learning Neutral. If I get a simple combo, that's fine. If I can punish with something small, that's fine. I'll optimize it all once I'm able to do it consistently and confidently.
Me as a beginner can say, that one of the biggest mistakes you can do when picking up a new fighting game is not really watching what your opponent is doing. I started just being busy on trying to brute force cool combos i learned in the lab. Ignoring i had to win neutral game first. So you start just mashing buttons and arent really reacting to stuff. You throw shit at a wall and see what sticks.
Such a common mistake that I think is way overlooked in terms of teaching people FG's. People practice some cool tech they've seen others do in training or against CPU, but they lack the ability to get themselves into a position to execute that tech. Learning the game offline will often make players SOO easy to read because they have no mind games. Their game is so computerized and predictable. Sure, of they get lucky and find an opening for their tech, they can look cool, but they will suffer badly getting there. I've been guilty of this myself, especially in games I'm unfamiliar with and have little practical experience on. That's why it's not always a terrible idea to actually learn the online game first, then start to lap cool shit. Not the other way around. Basics first, swag second.
Excellent video Sajam! Loved the whole mentions around the concept of Mental Stacks. You've pretty much explained why FG's like Killer Instinct & Dead or Alive are more difficult to play competently than most other FG's due to the combination of things that you have to account for along with all the decisions you need to make within a given match. Basically, performing "combos" is the easier part in the grand scheme of things.
My problem with certain fighting games is that I don't have enough time to play, and after that I don't have enough time to memorize best course of action against every character or optimizing my damage... The life of a working class
thats why I am not playing Tekken. SC6 had a nice enough training and single player mode to get used to the game even if not playing well, but Tekken is kinda insane with the lack of features. I would rather just wait for other games to come out and try them.
I have the time but my problem is I won’t counterpick when someone is countering my character and it’s online so it’s impossible to consistently 1 frame punish whatever braindead specials they happen to be abusing.
This helped me so much thanks. Started playing fighting games a few days ago and was having some issues with some moves in sfv now I understand it isn't about purely reacting to it it's about being ready for it
Great video - I really dug this! After learning about John Boyd and the 'OODA' loop a while back, and instinctively knowing this could be applied to fighting games in meaningful ways, I've done a lot of thinking about how human reaction time and real-time human conflict in general work in the context of a fighting game. Ideas like minimising the number of incoming stimulus (studies show each additional stimulus you might need to react to DOUBLES your reaction time), mentally 'pre-programming' a stimulus by making a read on the opponent to essentially turn an otherwise 'unknown stimulus' into a 'known stumulus' (and so reduce your reaction time to it)... Obviously labbing out your responses to common stimulus and cultivating the neural pathways and muscle memory necessary to act on them quickly is a key one, a la the AA example used towards the end of the video. In Boyd's terms you could say this allows the player to bypass the 'Orient' and 'Decide' stages of the OODA loop. This in combination with knowledge and experience of the game and the use of your instincts allows for a 'shortening' of the loop that is something Boyd would have referred to as 'Fingerspitzengefühl' (an old military term). The FGC at large might call this 'brain off' :). I've found there to be some really interesting science behind this sort of stuff (did you know that having a single beer right before Grand Finals might give you the edge over your opponent's reaction time?), and this is the first video I've come across from an FGC content creator that discusses these kinds of concepts in this context. So Sajam, I salute you.
I been watching your videos a lot lately. The more I watch the more I realize learning fighting games is the same as how I learned siege. Like here, early on I had so many options to consider, now depending on the situation I'll place myself in a corner that gives me the widest range benefiting my chosen weapon with as few angles that my opponent can come at me from. I reduce the number things to consider down till if I see an abnormal pixel movement I shoot. And more often than not I get the kill.
Sick vid. I'd say the concept of Mushin, 'ultra instinct', is largely just optimal prioritizing of the mental stack during combat (or whatever other art). Attained primarily through lessening the mental strain different parts of moves take to 'free up' the stack - by making moves come out effortlessly through repeated practice and, like you mention, dealing with different micro situations multiple times. This is seemingly true of all arts and practice.
Ty sajam for everything, your really helping the community grow, I wish you the best. I’ve been a fighting gamer since I can remember. Obviously casual as a kid but still has passion for games like tekken 3 and guilty gear xxaccent core. Before that was virtua fighter. But decided to go competitive with umvc3. Still haven’t got a w now 30 I really thinks sometimes I should just quit, but I love this so I choose to keep working. Right now it’s t7, Sam sho, ggrev2, among other. Many blessings, and I love the fact that this is a future worth “fighting” for. Sincerely Drake_Von_Duke. #misski
I like this chart here at 5:33 . Usually when I'm learning a new game, or new character really, I'll look up some tutorial to tell me which buttons are good. So it skips me to the 2nd or 3rd part of it(Depending on the game/character). Of course from there, you just have to keep playing and apply it to various situations. Trial and error.
In the air: anti air In the air: anti air In the air: anti air On the ground:??? PROFIT Seriously though this reminds me of a series that Push Button Win has about how to build a basic gameplan with with 5 moves and build on it from there. It's made for complete noobs (like me) and I highly recommend it.
Its insane how much of this applies to other games like shooters too. Good crosshair placement, recoil control and positioning is more important than sheer reaction time.
The difference with a shooter is when enemy appears, you press one button. In a fighting game, when the situation appears you're too late to do your move.
@@ganondorf66 this isnt completely true, youre also using the mouse, if you for example hold a corner very tight in csgo, even with very good reaction speed (
Started listening/watching to a few of your vids, never knew you had a channel but ive seen u on screen for years haha. New sub and like for you, keep up the goodwork. greetz from Holland EU
Knowing what you looking for, and knowing what the enemy can potentially do, or want to do because you either learned that character as well or have enough matchup experience playing against specialist will help you build foundation for reactions to initiate and counter attack, esp. When countering habits opponent tends to do, Understanding the opponent will help you make better decisions on what you should do while weighing risk vs reward. Putting your opponent in position like corner where you limit their options also helps make these decisions, knowing is half the battle the other half is anticipation, decisiveness, reaction, and pre-emptive space awareness. Once you have a gameplan next step is optimizing damage and labbing potential setups & frame traps, because there is always different paths, pressure, to break defense a character can do, while fighting an opponent that will benefit you. Doing the 1 same technique will eventually leave you open to counter strategies, and if you don't explore your gameplan weakness, or options to condition your opponent to not assume you will do same technique the better you will be at winning sets. Next step after that is exploring other characters to help cover poor matchup.
I agree it's about learning when you're trying to react to. A similar vein in FPS is cross hair placement, better players will have their crosshair in position they expect enemies to be so no adjustment of aim is required when they shoot whereas not aiming correctly means when you see someone you have to adjust aim which makes it harder. The first time I really noticed this was punishing sweeps and come Cr Mk with dudleys rolling thunder on reaction as I was looking for it.
When I learn a new fighting game, I always rely on the sage advice of Mr. 801Strider. Don't get rushed down. Don't get mixed up. As long as my decision making train isn't getting blown up, I think I can play pretty evenly with most casuals.
Saying you don't have the reaction speed to play is the nice way of saying they quickly get mind-flooded and don't make decisions with their brain, forget all their strategies, and just end up focusing on the bad fundamentals they hammered into themselves when they played through arcade on easy. I know this to be true because I used to say the same thing.
Or they just don't have the reaction time. Hitting block or dodge and it not fucking working despite knowing that was the proper move ahead of time and properly predicting it IS bad reaction timing.
@@AirahsELL if you correctly PREDICT a move and still dont get the proper response out in time, that means you havent internalized/automated the proper response yet.
Tekken tends to keep a lot of moves and move properties between each game. So the "pick up a new fighting game" process also applies to different games in the same series.
As a casual anime FGC player (Blazblue CF & Cross Tag), I kinda really wanna try out Street Fighter V. Some of the characters in the base roster really called to me, even the Arcade DLC ones. So when I saw that SFV had a free demo trial period, I jumped on it and downloaded. Did some trials for some characters like Sakura, Ken, and Laura. What I learned is that the button combinations are more precise than what I am used to. I can complete character trials, but there is a lot of adjustment I have to do to get the combos done. My reactions are okay and it just needs some trial and error to get it done.
Very interesting to me how this concept of reducing the cognitive load to improve "reaction time" applies very similarly to my experience with fighting games and fencing. I'd imagine it applies to most other fast paced competitive activities as well.
If *literally your granddad, Alex Valle* has good enough reaction time to play fighting games at a top tier level, yall young spring chickens have the raw neurological speed to play fighting games too. Trade that time you spend whining for time spent playing and studying the actual game.
Honestly I get into the lab and work out options/routes for combos like normals ( low, mid, overhead, light, mid, heavy ver.) Specials (light, mid, heavy, unique) Supers Find out what changes for each with counters, punishes, delay/links, ect. Then I find what my opponents char can do to deal with each. (I go thru all of their options) For the most part ive learned what i needed to react to because of this. Gives me an idea of what to expect since they have limited options for certain situations, which allows me to kinda "forsee" the future. Granted its monotonous at first, but that enki counter on reaction at round start is so satisfying 😌 I cannot stress enough how you can literally feel your opponents next move thru that repetition.
You should do a video laying out a fighting game curriculum of sorts. Sort of a play something from this more simple group then move to more complicated games like this other group.
I would say that there are some games that prioritize reactions way too much like SFV and 3rd Strike, but also there are many things people say is a whiff punish that isn't an actual reaction whiff punish which is difficult to know unless you did frame by frame analysis of the situation. A lot of what it comes down to in fighting games is knowing what is reactable, and what is just a read.
that part about decision space made a lot of sense to me actually :0 i don't have much experience in fighting games- i've played a lil bit of KoF, even less SamSho, and rn i've picked up GGST. but i did notice that ST felt way more "full" or "active" as i put it than SamSho or KoF, and now i know why- cus it *is* more active! when i played SamSho i did pretty decently, i played Ukyo, i knew his inputs, i knew what they did and i would usually play against my (now ex)bf and he's much better at games like this than me but i was actually doing decently well against him. but now in ST, i felt like i had lost all of that! even tho ST is the more beginner friendly out of them all, it's still a lot to keep track of and i've had lots of difficulty with it( my choice of Faust main probably doesn't help since he's listed as not very easy to play, but tbh i find him pretty straightforward and simple- helps that his inputs aren't too bad either)
All of this is absolutely true, but I think the modern era has brought another hidden factor to this to. I took a long hiatus from fighting games, so long that the last time I was playing regularly I was still playing on CRT TVs. When I started seriously playing again it was with SFV and I was really struggling, I thought I had become old and slow. But I had this little suspicion buzzing in the back of my mind and after some research I found out that I was the victim of display lag. Replaced the flat screen TV I'd been using with a properly fast gaming monitor and I had immediate improvement. A couple frames of display lag make a huge difference. Ever since then I've wondered how many people think they don't have good enough reactions to play fighting games because they're using some crap TV, and this situation is especially exacerbated by the fact that so much of playing fighting games is online now, so you opponent might very well be using better equipment than you. Shit TVs are the real frame trap.
I dunno if its just me though as i love combo challenges but I really wish during the combo challenges they really taught you the nuances for the more Hard core games like for example in one Ragna combo its says do a move and then dash....but when i played the demonstration it was actually a double dash and i really wish it helped teach the timings.
This video also explains why you might struggle or the reason why you struggle playing multiple characters in a fighting game. This is why you should pick a single character or a single team and stick with them.
itagaki once said fighting games are like wine, some of them you want to drink slow and enjoy, some are cheap and you just want to get loaded! I like the saying because I think all fighting games pretty much have the same core, it's the nuances that tend to separate them, how many games use qcf + P for input and most games/chars can feel or be different.
Actually for me is the other way around i dont have issues playing GG, undernight or BB but i have a dificulty with street fighter or tekken mostly beacause they are slower
I hear all this talk about getting good at fighting games but the only ppl I see getting good is the ppl already good at fighting games. Then go to lower lvls and smurf
It's a lot of repition and muscle memory. If an opponent jumps, you have to do an anti air. You don't have time to think about doing an anti air, it's just gotta be a part of you, it's like automatic.
Well I mean, yes and no, people don't have the same ractions, like, biologically. Sure, learning the game will probably make you rely less on reactions, but still, there is something to be said about mental skills (like reaction, coordination, etc...) and the lack thereof... age REALLY doesn't help either. That's why it's good to have different kinds of games that fill many niches.
I can never react fast enough for Baby's First Hit Confirm. By the time I process whether the first hit landed or not, the ship already sailed. I pretty much never get the combo unless the opponent makes a huge whiff where I don't have to guess about the first hit landing.
I'm gana think about the mental stack when I'm playing other games See if I learn something new I'm sure some us were subconsciously doing this but knowing the term is nice
SF reactions seem to me a lot faster since there are a lot less options in comparison to a games like bb or gg Those game prioritise reading movement more. See the air dash, you don’t just stuff it you need to think about what move they are gonna press and how to counter the most or a specific option.
I played a sub zero as sindel about 20 times last night. In the ranked game I got slaughtered. Took it to kasuals and got slaughtered again. Slowly I built my mental stack up. He used slide, low mix up or overhead. The slide and overhead were easy punishes when blocked and I could take my turn with certain moves when blocking the low. My problem was that I knew what was coming. It was going to be one of those 3 moves. I eventually learned to keep space and eliminated his slide as I punished it too often but the mix ups caused me agony time and time again. I felt my reactions were just bad. The overhead was a launcher so has more combo potential but the low was faster and caught me over and over. Just when I'd block low after getting hit by it 3 times, in comes the overhead and I'm hit for full combo damage. I did take some games but maybe only 5 or 6 from the 15-20 or so that we played. I just felt helpless getting hit by the same thing over and over when I knew it was coming.
it's not just about reaction time, it's about whether they expect it. It doesn't matter how bad your reaction time is, if snake edge is the only thing you're looking for, you can react to it. Probably won't be able to react to anything else, but if you can make people so scared of snake edge then you can go for other slower mixups that they're not ready for.
But I think my reactions are actually kinda bad, like say the move snake edge in tekken, i can barely see and block it offline sometimes and only when im expecting it 100%. But in online even if I'm 100% expecting it, and see it I just can't block fast enough on reactions alone, when you're supposed to be able to see this move with enough practice. so I'm in this state where i have to almost treat it as a faster low and guess it's coming, which is really dangerous because that low comes with a full combo after and so do the mids if I'm guessing low too much.
I feel you. This is why I tend towards characters with big normals that can be used to shut down a wide variety if aggressive options. In Tekken, that's Asuka. I've also switched to Josie recently, and being able to mix in her orbital type move to preempt lows helps keep the opponent from having an easy way to punish my guessing at their lows. Basically, push buttons on defense to avoid blocking too much.
Tekken's hard to react to because you can't focus on what to expect without priorly experiencing that specific situation beforehand and learning how to deal with it.
"It's hard to react to a dash and anti-air at the same time" Maybe it's because of the airborne nature of platform fighters, but I play Smash and I find it pretty easy to do this, and I am by no means even a decent player. Maybe this also comes down to the fact that you can safely attempt to stuff jumps with aerials in Smash without eating a huge punish like in more traditional fighting games.
It doesn't matter if you can react to a dash and an anti-air "at the same time" because playing reactively gets stuffed by some options that proactive and meant catch you "waiting". Throwing out a button to stop your opponent's approach, waiting to react to this whiff and doing something to catch a waiting opponent (like empty jump throw or dash in throw) are a rock, paper, scissors. Reaction is only 1/3 of this exchange.
I disagree in part, this mental stack idea is true in theory but it doesn't translate 100% to practice. In fighting games there are things that are meant to be reactable (that you need to manage on your "mental stack", eg. jumping, whiff punishing) and things that are meant to be unreactable (you just have to guess in advance, eg. most throws) and moves and concepts are often designed around those two concepts. But that line is not black and white, there is also a grey area of things that "technically reactable" that you can react to if you are sharp but can't if you are not. Examples are some overheads in 2D games that are like ~16f or a bit faster, or some lows in 2D that are ~22f or a bit faster (numbers can vary per person and per move, some moves have deceptive animations). For those moves some sharp players can have them in their stack and react , others can have it in their stack but can't and have to guess regardless. Two different players can be having two different types of interactions with the move. Not even accounting for online play where that line gets further blurred (regardless of netcode or match quality).
IMO, these are the kinds of differences that matter at the top of a bracket and aren't a meaningful concern for the average player, let alone people refusing to get into fighting games because they think it's all twitch responses. I'd also say that even the stuff you mentioned as reactable isn't necessarily. I don't imagine all whiff punishes are on reaction, so much as realizing in advance your opponent has botched their timing/spacing and there will be a whiff to punish, which puts at least some of them back in the mental stack.
Blazblue CS was my 1st anime fighter and the combo challenges broke my spirit. I always thought I was good at fighting games, just not anime fighters.... I just don’t have the dexterity
Blazblue Cs straight up has some of the hardest combos in the industry. Coming from a long time anime player here. Even basic bitch Ragna has some hard ass combos in that game. That's why they're way easier in every BB game afterwords, unless your a naoto player.
