I'm a Navy Vet. (1958-1964) The ship was on was part of the Cuban blockade ( an ammunition ship) an I've come full circle back to 22lr shooting. I used to hunt deer, grouse, squirrel, etc. Now I'm older so I hunt targets not animals. That's what Groceries stores are for. And its cheaper, But I used to like just getting outside enjoying the hunt, even on days without bagging anything. I live in Maryland an its hard to find ranges for target without driving 50 plus miles. I have weighed my ammo but not had a chance to evaluate my findings. If I can shoot half as good as you, I'll be happy. Keep up the vids. I watch them all,.
Pay no attention to the nay sayers. Enjoy all your great information. 73 year old Navy vet and I too have come back to the 22lr. Low noise and low recoil have me smiling from ear to ear. Thanks again.
Jerry I agree sometimes its hard to ignore the noise. My dad gave me the same advice he said "son put on your ear muffs and keep doing what you do" at first I was like what in the heck oh man dad is finally going down hill 🤣🤣🤣 then he said ignore the noise, there is always space for noise and it will always be there. Sir I am so glad you stopped by and hope you continue to get out as a date with 22LR is always a smile.
I agree! I think you should also get a budget rifle like a Savage B22F and do more videos testing all sorta of ammo to see if they're subject to improvement with sorting! If you ask me you'd be doing God's work😂
I've watched every 22 video that you've made, and I must say that you make the most informative, entertaining target shooting videos on the web. Weather folks agree with the data or not, it's helpful to get the information and make your own conclusions. Please keep making 22 rifle videos...love 'em. Would also love to see you do more 22lr rifle reviews. Keep up the great work...much appreciated. bb
I really enjoy your videos, the setup with the cameras really gives the feeling of beeing there with you, keep it coming I'll be with you until the group is a round and nice .22 hole :)
Please don't pay any attention to the naysayers. This is the exact type of scientific method which is fun in sorting out the best ammo for a particular rifle. I enjoy this immensely. So much so, I'm going to do a similar workup with 3 of my 22 rifles. My newest is the Bergara B14R just acquired. Thanks for putting the effort into your tests, it is appreciated.
You keep having fun, because I;m having fun watching and learning from you. You are saving me tons of time and money and I'm just getting back into 22's after years of letting them sit in the safe. I forgot how much fun they are to shoot.
Good looking equipment, enjoy yourself at the range and keep up with experimenting. I found the biggest improvement with the cheap ammo when I was sorting.
On both your challenges I used weight sorted SK long range. The smallest group was also batched by rim thickness and the result speaks for its self. The hostage target ( under peacemaker) was just weight sorted and batched @ 51.5gns
Here is my answer to that one ; with Blazer or SK yellow or CCI Std. I sort only by weight and clearly cheaper ammo benefits from sorting are very clear. I shoot 100 meters and with sorted Blazer by weight from CZ 455 Jaguar(stock), with bipod and sand sock and each five shots will cover with nickel . 50 yards may not show a difference as much but 100 meters (110yards) it will, if shooting is done with economy ammo.
@@Dayattherange as an aside regarding your question about sorting. For me, I put a $ value on my time (my work hourly rate of $35/hr) and it's more economical to spend the extra $5-10/box on premium ammo rather than "wasting" an hour or more sorting. Obviously for those on a fixed/lower income, retired or a on a strict budget then it probably makes more sense to sort cheaper ammo options.
I recently started sorting, by weight, and I shoot budget ammo like CCI Standard and Federal Auto Match. I also bought a Labradar to monitor muzzle velocity. I have been watching your site for a few months now and many times you are shooting a great group and then a flier or two. So far, what I have seen is when I weigh bullets, the ones that are light or heavy either have lower or higher muzzle velocities respectively. If I shoot ones with equal weight my SD reading is 12 or below and muzzle velocity between rounds is 35 or less, mostly less than 10FPS. My groups are tighter and fliers are a minimum or non existent. I have taken these high/low weight bullets and used them to season the barrel. I can tell you at 50 yds I am grouping 2" or more between shots and it looks more like a 410 shotgun blast. Muzzle velocities with those rounds go as high as 200 to 300 difference between shots depending on the brand of ammo. One of my buddies turned me on to weighing and rim sizing. I thought he was doing it for a laugh but I found out he was right. I havent done the rims yet but let me ask you. You have a lot of custom guns and barrels. How many of these barrel makers or gunsmiths have asked you what kind of ammo you shoot? They want to know your biggest grain you will shoot and brand so they can get the proper headspace and match chamber specs tight, correct? People can razz all they want. I see the difference in the target. If you or I are wasting time, in their opinion, big deal!! Last time I looked it was my time to waste and I am having fun doing it. In 3 or 4 hours I can do 1000 rounds. If I buy 5 boxes of Lapua super x I will spend over 100 bucks and have to find certain lot numbers that are compatible. How much time does that take? I have been amazed at 100yd groups I got out of junk Remington Thunderbolt at 5 cents a round or less. Is it better than boutique ammo groups, maybe not. Some bean counter screwed up the ammo because back in the 60's and 70's some of the best ammo was Remington, Federal, or Winchester and they all shot good!!! Tomorrow I am going to order the PDC chassis you have on your 455. I like it and am building another 457.
I do things that would make all of your critics cry and scream and throw tantrums! Back when Jim Clark installed one of his target triggers in a Ruger 6 inch standard and won the Internationals with it, I realized that the "select few" that think they know everything, actually have a lot to learn! I shoot my MTR with common off the shelf ammo. I expect a few fliers and I know that I will cause some, so I simply don't count em! I shoot 3 shot groups because as a Hunter, that is what I've always done and that is what I will always do. More often than not, that rifle will put 3 into a tight cluster or one hole the majority of the time and that is what I consider a "rifle that shoots"... I'm an informal shooter and left the world of competitive shooting behind long ago. Not many real rifle shooters around anymore in my opinion! They rely entirely on technology to do what they never learned how to do in the field and that isn't shooting in my opinion. You should do what you wish and the critics be left in the dust my friend! GOD Bless.
It's funny that you commented on the smell of the ELEY ammo. I had only shot North American manufactured ammo prior to getting into Rimfire PRS and NRL22 style shooting a few years ago, and the smell was the smell I had known for over 40 years... First round of ELEY and I knew something had changed. It was a bizarre "oil paint drying" smell, to me. Very different. Now. I've fired tens of thousands of rounds... but that smell from ELEY, SK, LAPUA , RWS, and Fiocchi is still so noticeable. Everything scratches up your bore, eventually... and that's not to say that handling the ammo doesn't pick up the occasional piece of grit from the tabletop to your hands, especially in windy conditions, or , ( and come on, admit it, we've all done it, ) that dropped round that you wipe off and shoot anyways... All .22 RF ammo has waxes or oils that are dirt and dust magnets. It's gonna happen. As for sorting vs. not sorting: I suppose it boils down to what discipline you are shooting and how much your OCD kicks-in, and then also your budget. If you have the cash, and don't want to spend time sorting, then buy trhe best you can, and shoot it straight-up. If you're shooting .22 RF Benchrest, you'd probably buy many different lots, shoot them all to find the winner, then buy as many as you could of that lot and THEN sort them( By weight AND rim thickness), because those matches are won or lost in the thousandths of an inch. In PRS and active shooting, again, it boils down to your competitive nature, how much time you have on your hands, OCD and your budget. I have seen studies where they sort mediocre or mid quality ammo trying to get match ammo out of it, and it helps to a point, but doesn't really result in "match" ammo. In PRS you want consistency. MOA will get you trophies. Sub-MOA will get you close to first or at least on the podium, and will eliminate a lot of guesswork. .2's and .3's removes the gun/ammo from the equation and puts it all on you to do your part. Sorting leaves me more than a few rounds that go into a "plinking" pail. Those can be some pretty expensive plinkers sometimes, and makes my wallet ache just a little.
Don’t wrap this up keep going! Everyone will always have an opinion and that’s all it is; an opinion. What works for you might not work for everyone else. That’s what sets us all apart but none the less we are all here for watching you have fun! Can’t wait to go to the range and have me some 22lr fun as well this weekend! God bless and keep them vids coming! 👍
I have just ran across this video and I see its a year old. I have been sorting my ammo for about 3-4 months, thanks to my great friends on Mewe (I have a great group of friends there and we LOVE the Ruger 10/22). I dont have anything fancy as far as rifles go. I have a 10/22 with a Green Mountain target barrel. I can attest that I have CCI-SV (sorted ammo) that will shoot under .5 moa at 50 yds. I have also had great success with Norma TAC-22 as well. I will say that I sort by grams and not grains and it has tightened my groups up tremendously. Sorting by weight, seems to get rid of any flyers, you might have. I am a FIRM believer in sorting .22 LR ammo. LOVE your VIDEOS, please keep up the GREAT CONTENT !!!!!!!
Sir, THANK YOU for putting in the time on this. It was VERY nice to see another set of data on this. I did a similar experiment, using a CZ 455, sorting only by rim thickness. I had similar results, about a 20% shrink in group size. However, I decided it wasn't really worth all the time that went into it as a working dad. Especially since I shoot NPR style matches, not F-class bench. Biggest reason of all I quit doing it, I really found it tedious, and didn't enjoy it. I enjoy reloading, but this rim measuring was no fun at all to me. Keep up the good work, cheers.
I have never sorted before then I have never used the high end ammo. I would like to sort according to lead weight since that is the heaviest part of the 22 and would make the biggest difference.
Another awesome video 👍 …… when i shoot my .22 i have Nothing on the end of it with holes in it as over time the holes can carbon up and then your groups start widening - this has happened to me and when i took it off and just put on a thread protector my group sizes came back… also with the .22 the only two finger i touch the rifle with are the Thumb and Trigger finger… grabbing hold of the grip as well can twist the rifle - do a test yourself - Look through the scope and grip the hand grip tight and then let it go again - you’ll see the rifle move…. But thats how i roll… you guys do what you feel is best for you… 😊 - and your thumb should be like directly behind the trigger as though you are going to touch your thumb and trigger finger together in a straight line… happy shooting !!
Great video Marine. You asked, so I''ll answer. Last year I won 7, 150 yard, 22 lr matches at our club. All with SK Standard Plus (yellow box). Rim thickness didn't seen to matter much as all were within a half thousandth of each other. But sorting by weight made a phenomenal difference. I only wonder where the weight difference is at. Lead weight, powder weight, or brass weight. Keep up the good work.
Semper Fidelis! As a kid, Dad and I went rabbit hunting with a single shot Stevens, in .22 short, which was okay for small game. When I returned home from boot camp, I bought a Marlin carbine, in .22LR with cheap optics that I really didn't need. It was a "tack driver" at 50 yards, though. Unless I was target shooting regularly in competition, I'd likely never sort ammunition. With a medium bore weapon, perhaps, if I planned to take game at over 300 yards. With a condition known as "essential tremor," though, target shooting seems to be therapeutic, and calms me down almost as good as the meds that I take. Something about that "B.R.A.S.S." mnemonic we learned on the range almost sixty years ago! Enjoyed your video, sir. Thank you. Respectfully, Ken -- MOS 2831 - 1st Marines, Viet Nam / 13th Marines, Camp Pendleton 1964-1967.
Please do not give up,your information is great to follow some experimentation gives a direction to follow. Did a bit of rim thickness checking on Eley Club and it all measured as 0.039 thou so the standard of manufacture was extremely good,also did same with CCI subsonic at 0.040 also good manufacturing . Enjoy
You are right,have fun and dont worry about others opining.... sorting works.all anyone has to do is look at how... say a company like Elly makes their high end ammos and what lot # s are. I appreciate your videos.
Thank you for this interesting video. For your information, serious ISSF small bore competitors are definitely sorting their ammunition, but they do it differently. They only sort the top of the brands (Eley Tenex and the rare equivalent brands) and they do it by "batch". A company like Eley is "offering" this service, provided you purchase the appropriate number of 1000 rounds packs of the batch that suits your match rifle the best. More local compagnies do it too, and sometimes with a larger palette of ammunition brands, but with a more restricted set of Tenex Lots. Yes there are small differences between various batches of Eley Tenex, some batches may work better in one match rifle, and other batches (or other brands) will work better with the next similar model. For serious competitors, even a small difference in performance may have huge impact (like being on an olympic podium or not). It is not clear wether this is also relevant for other, more affordable brands. This is where sorting individual cartridges, like you do, may be relevant, at least to some extent.
My friend and I say it's unholy to go home with 22's in a box. Lol Oh, by the way the CZ 452 mag fits the JW 15! I finally got an extra mag. Great video
I weight cull, not sort. I usually cull around 25 rounds out of a brick of Eley Target. These are rounds that are well out of the norm. It absolutely helps with fliers. About a month ago I went through a brick and culled 23 rounds. After that I shot 4 five shot groups with the good stuff and 4 five shot groups with the culls. At fifty yards the good stuff averaged .588 inches while the culls averaged 1.37 inches. In all four of the cull groups, fliers are what really opened them up. The smallest cull group was .787 inches. I use to rim sort but really never saw that much difference in my guns. I also haven't seen any real improvement when weight sorting by the .10 of a grain.
DATR, let's put things into perspective, so why do you spend $22 on Lapua or $4 on CCI standard is there a difference in specs & quality or just marketing ?? proofs in the pudding. I'm retired so I have time, and $22 a box for plinking is crazy, so I buy and sort bulk ammo and just let me say, take a box of 300 or 500 and weigh them out , and see what you get, you'll be amazed at the high & low and that's what you get for $4............. I have seen overall weights from 37.0 gr to 45.0 gr at a bullet listed @ 1180 fps will that produce flyers High or low !! The rabbit hole is deep, 22lr is a peculiar little round, keep shooting and we'll keep watching.
Even if it doesn’t make that much difference in actual terms if it gives you just a little more confidence that you can shoot better with sorted rounds then it is worth it. Everyone who shoots competitive matches knows it is critical to find ammunition that your rifle really likes and gives you that extra confidence to shoot you best. So spending a little extra time to give yourself that little extra is worth it.
You do a great job a lot of information..I shoot 22 BR yes ammo sorting does help with mid grade ammo. I shoot mides+ for compation I do check it for weight and rim thickness, it does change with lot numbers, not much but some. I can reset my tuner for deferent lots . It works for me. Keep up the good work.
Keep doing your thing, the trolls gonna be trolls and expose their ignorance, the rest of us like what you do and actually you help less experienced shooters, soooooo, keep on trucking my man.
There is a thread on rimfire central about ground glass. The comments said that all 22 rimfire cartridges have it to induce friction. It's not just eley, but all have it according to what I read. I would say, no worries.
Yes, Yes Yes - Having FUN. Like the series, like the info. Sorting ammo? Hmm, not sure it would make a noticeable difference in my shooting - mostly off hand or using a sling. I'll give it a try, though.
I did a review of a motorcycle that has over 100k views. I said one thing wrong and boy did it bring out the keyboard warriors. Granted most people are nice but the ones that aren't are filled with so much vitriol that it's disheartening. Keep doing you bro, I enjoy your channel. Just bought a CZ 457 Provarmint and will be doing the same thing with all the 22 ammo I have that you do with your video... I just don't think I will post a video.
I sort by weight & rim thickness. I have shot both sorted & unsorted & the sorted is always the tightest groups. I also warm up my barrel before I start & I have a clean barrel before I test. I shoot IBS 50yrd. Bench rest at my club & just knowing that my ammo is as tightly matched as possible gives me one less thing to think about as I go through a match shooting at 75 dots. I shoot both a Tikka T1x & a CZ 457 Varmint MTR. I shoot both SK Rifle Match & SK Pistol Match Special sorted. Oh and great Video as always!
I tried it, rim thickness only, the results were, for my rifle and ammunition, inconclusive. Also the effort took most of the fun out of shooting 22lr, for me anyway, If you enjoy sorting, go for it. Never let the piss ants wear you down.
I don’t sort, but I shoot Lapua Midas +. I weighed some and measured rim thickness. I couldn’t find any differences. I don’t think that you should count the initial groups. My clean, cold bore shots are always spread out. Suggestions for better accuracy: Single feed. Varying magazine spring tension affects your bolt position in the receiver. Use at least a 30X scope. Aim small, miss small. Allow the rifle to freely recoil. To that end, you need a 3” front bag, a 3” plate on the fore end, and a sub-1 oz trigger. Test different lots. I tested 12 round groups of 15 different lots of Midas +. The groups ranged from .264” to .967”. Test action screw torque. 15 in lbs works best for me. I shoot a CZ 457 with a Lilja barrel in a MTR stock. I added a bag rider to keep the rifle level in recoil.
I very heavily 'sort' every single round of (center fire) ammo I make. I never gave any thought to sorting .22 LR but absolutely various brands produce much different results. I've never had good luck with Eley and Federal bulk box shoots pretty well for me. Edit: Thanks for bringing us along!
You are behind that long gun in the perfect position. I watch a lot of videos where shooters are shooting to fast and in each case their fliers are, I believe, as a result of them canting their head on the stock.
Great video as ALWAYS!! Very much appreciated 👍 I only have a Lithgow 101 and here in the U.K. we have a worst ammo issue than you do! I don’t bother weighing/rim-thickness the mid to high end ammunition but always weigh and check rim thickness on the cheapest ammo ( American Eagle etc) and it DOES make a difference out of my Lithgow! Hope that helps. Do you first find ammunition that your firearm seems to like and then weigh/rim-check or weigh/rim-check and then see which seems to shoot better? Once again many thanks for taking the time to bring us these great videos, regards Clive from across the pond in deepest Dorset 👍
great work, great information, my three favorites are SK, Amrscor, and Aquila for target shooting at this time, more consistent from round to round, lot to lot. Sort for real serious, very serious, shooting, just serious the above are my top 3 pick for my Rem 513T an my (16 pound) Rem 40X
In my experience only: Sorting by rim thickness using my Neil Jones gauge has made a difference. Two factors made the biggest difference for Me. I had to press the same amount of pressure on the gauge to make it effective; this was accomplished with practice. Secondly, the lower the cost of the ammo the bigger fluctuations and larger improvements I saw. Measuring Tenex was not time effective for Me. Sorting CCI standard was worth it. Fed automatch was also worth it, but not time effective due to way to large of sort piles to widdle down. So for Me, I sort Eley/SK/Lapua midrange for improvement. Eley Black/Tenex, Lapua Exact I purchase by lot number for improvement, and the thickness when I check, are already usually the same. I always wondered how if too much handling had an effect. Thoughts? ( I do not weight sort at this point )
With a lot of gun things, I do what I think is right and experiment when I don't know myself I rarely listen to the crowd or the popularly acceptable course of action. I'll take their input sure and factor it into my own thoughts but almost never do I take others words as gospel truth until I can experiment and see for myself I trust my own experience over what others have told me every time, and I think you should too
Sorting premium/high quality ammo probably isn't as effective as the manufacturing process probably has a tighter quality control regimine. However, I would be willing to bet sorting cheap/ bulk ammo could pay big dividends at the range. Don't listen to the haters, if you enjoy it, then it is worth doing, just maybe less worth it in some instances.
Great vids, love your intensity, you should just stick with your Lithgow, I get great results shooting eley std bulk box, love what you do, keep up the great work
Clearly shows he beifits of sorting ammo. Plus I enjoy doing it. I cannot afford Tenex or Midas+. I can afford Eley Club,Eley Match and SK Pistol Match. I got similar results you did. But, I did get much better results when I sorted for rim thickness and weight. Love your videos. Do more with your family. How about doing a Family challenge?
You may not see the results of testing sorted ammo at 50 yards. Where you’re going to see it is out to distance. I’m sure testing sorted ammo out past 200 yards would yield better results than using unsorted ammo at the same distance. Plus finding the correct rim thickness that your gun likes in a particular round would yield better results especially for guys that tend to shoot out past 200 yards.
Everyone i competed with in ir 50/50 sorted ammo, via several methods.. either by rim thickness, others by bullet straightness, weight or all. (with tenex, match or lapua center-x) Team ammo should benefit even more!. Someone who criticizes this is peculiar?? (bullet straightness sorted ammo showed most promise) by the way,, why don't you use your forend stop on the rest? Also, you will reduce your left/right variation with use of wind flag. When shooting at bullseye size of the dot on an eye (the x) , highest score size of the bullet,, sorting certainly don't hurt! Get some 50/50 targets & find out... Like your videos! made me buy another 22!
Clearly, sorting makes a difference. But it is a small difference. I am happy with the sizes of groups I get from my two highly accurate .22 rifles, so I don't sort. This was, however, a fun and interesting experiment.
Great shooting, I also sort, but only by weight. The Eley Club was from 48.8 to 57+ grams I sorted by .3 grams, the big difference was, the lone flyer that pops up here and there. But .6 to .48 was best. On the Eley TeneX they weight spread was much closer. 48.9 to 52 grams, again sorted by .3 grams much ore consistent, .48 to .51… again the extra weight could be powder therefore minimizing that lone flyer….at least on my Tikka T1X at 50yrds on the ARA target. They also stay tighter at 100 and 200yrds. I too enjoy sorting and shooting and it’s all about the fun isn’t it?
I dont care what others say, i enjoy every video you post, sir. Everyday i come into youtube just to see if you`ve uploaded another video. Just keep making videos! We know YOU are having fun as much as WE are having fun watching your videos.
I did shoot both unsuppressed and compared those groups to each other and then wanted to see if the suppressor would make a difference as bonus content.
Don't pay any attention to the naysayers .22s are so much fun and so frustrating. I have tested by rim thickness and weight as well and found its not worth the effort but it's fun to experiment.
Just getting into rimfire and i bought a Neil Jones 22lr rim thickness gauge so im hoping to sort some cheap ammo and get some gold out of it. According to CCI their SV and Green tag are the exact same except they are sorted by thickness and weight so if they can charge .30 cents a round instead of .10 then ill definitely give it a try Love the video! Keep em comming! Whats your set up for your scope camera and target cam? Are you using a Tacticam for the scope?
I shoot in a league weekly. I started sorting by rim thickness this year. It did seem to close my groups up considerably. By about an inch @ 110 yards.I never shot a score of 100 before I sorted the ammo. I scored 3 100's after I started sorting. However, I do not shoot Ely or any other of the better .22 ammo. I shoot standard velocity 40 gr. Federal ammo. This may be why. It is nowhere near the consistency as Ely.
I will sort with range of 1/10 of a grain . One group example (51.4-51.5) next (51.6-51.7) and so on. Some lots of ammo are very close and some are bad enough to make 5 sort groups. But .22 LR ammo is around 51 grain and bullet is 40 casing around 10 grain if differences are it is in mostly bullet weight and casing /shell. Match ammo should be very close to be good . Again importance is to grade ammo purpose for size of target at distance . Hitting beer can at 100 yards almost any .22 LR will do. 😆
Man we have a guy that shows up at our 22nrl matches and wins the whole matches with sorted cci sv and a bare bones tikka t1x. You’re not wasting your time
I started out just shooting CCI STANDARD VEL in a RUGER RPRR in a NRL22 MATCH not sorted & did not score well then I sorted by rim thickness & weight 6-7 out of 10 after sorting if the wind isn't blowing 16-20 mph across your target. Ive had just bought a CZ 457 MTR just got a scope on, it no ammo test yet. you do what you think that would give YOU the advantage at making the smallest don't
