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To be fair, Nadeo were right in saying that they can't change the hitbox without changing the gameplay...although it's a possitive change & should have happened when 1st bringing it to the new game, glad for those who play that they are doing so now.
once again it's modders fixing their game for them. this could be a turn in the right direction at least. the community often has really good feedback and they would do well to listen more often. Can we talk about royal yet?
I agree. I know hindsight is 20/20, but bringing the car into the new game was absolutely the right time to fix things. Now the impact is significant, but better late than never
If only Nadeo was a long standing game developer with 20 years of experience, with a series of racing games... Maybe then people wouldn't need to explain to them how easy the fix is.
@aprophetofrng9821 You would be surprised. I've seen some weird takes regarding landing bugs on snow car. Even people going so far as to say new players are entitled and should learn how to counter the landing bugs.
Granady also said that he thinks its part of the gameplay and learning the snow car to avoid landing bugs. So by that logic he would be against fixing the hitbox no?
@@SoroISF That's the funny thing, there is no way to counter them if the jump is from high up. A low jump, sure, maybe you can help it by making sure the car is angled in a certain way. Still feels random as hell though. But it's legit impossible to stop from higher jumps. Unless there's some super secret tech I don't know about.
Even devoid of all the mild drama and personalities in the background, this is a good change purely because it makes the game more intuitive. A new player won't know the community-sourced ways to mitigate these sorts of physics problems, and this change reduces the gap between dedicated, enfranchised players and the casuals who only check in every couple of months to clear the new campaign tracks.
I like how snow car became a mapper issue for tm2020 due to landing bugs. In theory you could design a map to not trigger hitbox at all and it brings nice design variety. Though I wouldn't miss the bug)
"But we can't easily update it without breaking the original gameplay and feeling." My brother in Christ, if we wanted 2003 experience we would just play 2003 game
I'll repeat myself, but whenever a dev/dev team says they can't update something because it would interfere with the original vision/functionality, they don't mean it. They're just being lazy and disingenuous. Nobody likes the buggy hitbox, and they used the nostalgia factor in order to not fix it because they deemed it as something hard, and then tried to fool their players like what they've done with the keyboard/controller tweaks drama.
The very different geometry of the modern tracks also makes the old hitbox much more of an issue. Big issues just driving on a large part of sausage and dirt tracks definitely made a change necessary even if they did want to keep the vanilla driving feel, including the bits that made driving the car awkward.
If a company deserves calling out for bad choices they also deserve praise for good choices, on its fact this seems like a solid move, let's hope it doesn't introduce some kind of weird bug or something lol
I think an overlooked reason for this could also be out genuine neutrality. Of course Nadeo would know there would be difficulties with a 2003 model, but allowing the bumps in the road, so to speak, to be subject to the response of the community rather than subject to nadeos own opinion and releasing the car with changes made already is the right choice. Not to mention the possibility of backlash from dedicated old school players who received a different snow car from day 1.
@@Tyzaem64 I really doubt more than like 1% of TM2020 players are even United diehards, and most of us actually had beef with the snow landing bugs as well. So idk, I'm inclined to agree with them just firing the model raw.
I'm really happy that I showed up on your video Wirtual at 6:37! I agree that listening to everything the community asks can be a bad thing as well, but if the big majority of the community are unhappy with a change or addition, then it would be wise for them to take action like they're doing with the Snow Car.
i don't remember the exact source but there was a talk i saw online once: users are generally very good at finding problems and very bad at finding solutions. this happens to be a weird exception where a user was able to find a very simple solution
@@robynkolozsvari Great quote, but I wouldn't consider this case to be an exception. Users that know how game works internally let alone how to modify it to their will are a very small subset of the entire playerbase. And if you take whole playerbase the rule will still apply. (pedantic semantics, I know)
@@robynkolozsvari the problem is that Nadeo often treats people that know about the internals of the game (be it because of hosting competitions with their tools, mapping, creating and importing assets, skinning, pro drivers etc.) as the average player. The average player at most engages with TM community either through Wirtuals chat or by maybe with a reaction to a TOTD twitter post. I've seen way too many complaints, even from dedicated Alpha testers, be ignored or decided against without explanation.
hylis' ego and it's effect on nadeo's culture really gets in the way of innovation. "it's right because this is how we did it" will be the slow death of this game. Very glad to see they that might be changing.
Just like the complete ignorance of modern input hardware and push towards accessibility. The game is clearly run by boomers and owned by one of the most regressive companies now.
I cant help but wonder if the downward trend in player engagement is causing them to rethink. They largely killed off the TM community once before and they are lucky to have a second chance.
THIS "once again it's modders fixing their game for them." I'd really love to look under the hood of the Nadeo company. Coming from an IT/Programming field, I need to know if there is a product lead or Ubisoft or whoever is blocking/forcing Hylis to release unfinished features. Or is it Hylis all the time? Like he has some voting right and always plays the ego card? (just assuming) Also, when do they really take the time to fix their net code? I know that they aren't that big like some AAA studios, but after twenty years of this game, I still can't have 5 opponents visible in front of me without them lagging like no tomorrow. Also, I lost so many good runs because someone joined my server and I got a Massive lag. Happens with as small as 10 people lobbys... Last time I got something similar was during my United time. We are here 15 years later tho
I think they can "clean" the hitboxes up without completely jumping away from the original feel. Like just reshape the undercar hitbox to be flatter in the center and ends instead of circular and raise it up a bit. You can still get landing bugs but it won't feel annoying or random. Then modernize the entire top surface hitboxes to give some fun potential interactions when making maps.
"without "breaking or changing" original gameplay" as in, losing speed and landing bugs are part of original gameplay... to fix it and keeping original gameplay would mean a shit ton of testing and research to figure out all the different situations that are common in the original game as well as deciding how it should act in new situations with the new game. finally they'd have to add a unique way for the car to "crash" or lose speed. to change it to just not have the same behaviors is incredibly easy and would take minutes. basically it's more the discussion and decision aspect that's hard.
@@kiranaun9593 To be fair, that's like how it feels playing almost any game these days. The devs will be really slow with updates, changes, or content. And randomly there'll be some guy who pops up a week after the game's release and goes "Hey, I made this mod that lowers the load times by 50% and increases performance by at least 30 fps, here's a free download."
@@aprophetofrng9821Because modders have nothing to lose. If someone doesn't like what the mod changes they can choose to ignore it exists. But developers don't have such leniency. They have to make sure that the community wants it, then make sure it works the way it should after the patch on every single possible interaction that they should be used on, then they'll have to go ahead and have it approved, make it, and then make a patch for it specifically for everyone. And that's just the tiny list of things that goes on. Depending on the game there might be more testing. Do I agree that they're slow? Yes. Is it intentional? Most of the time? No. Lots of them are down to company procedure slowing shit down.
@@astupidlylongnamethatstoolong You have got very good points and it looks like you did some research. But what I was always wondering was why they dont have test servers. It would be much easier in my opinion. Work on update throw it on test servers let players try it and then fix bugs etc. Sadly as you pointed out it is almost always company procedure s fault.
I recently got the gold medal on 08 @ 5:07 and boy did it take me too much time to even get the run I needed for that, the Snow Car really did need an update, thank you guys for raising awareness about the Snow Car
I'm sure if they had fixed the hitbox since day 1 there would be a group of people complaining that they haven't kept the original hitbox. Nadeo tried to be neutral, got feedback from the community and finally acted, nothing wrong with that
I hope this means that Nadeo will also be willing to fix the collision boxes and/or change the physics for the rally and desert cars before they release.
I think this makes sense and is good, but I also think it makes sense Nadeo didn’t want to change anything at first. A lot of the, “we want the old stuff back!!” gamer crowd are opposed to any changes whatsoever… at first! This is exactly how I’d have done it myself- release it as is so that none of the older players could say that we ruined their favorite car, watch the world set on fire because holy shit why is it so janky, and then you change it. You’ve given the people the 2003 experience, they, as a community, have said that the 2003 experience is not very fun with the modern tracks, and then you have updated it. I think this makes the most sense.
Yeah I confirm you Wirtual that the hitbox improvement is a very positive news even for an old player like me. Especially on TM2020 where landings bugs occurs more often since there is way more surfaces and lot of blocks that are not flat. It's need to be modernized, I'd not even mind if the gameplay changed a bit, it's not exciting to play the exact same gameplay again and again. I'll start to hunt more if they get rids of landings bugs!
Kinda funny. My AT run on 08 was because i got a weird landing boost jumping to the right. People also forgetting that making the snow car better buffs Granady even more
I think the pikachu analogy makes a lot of sense. I would like to add that the difference is, that almost all oldschool pokemon players think pikachu is great and should not be changed, but in this instance, even the oldschool players agreed that snowcar is wrong. Nadeo would not have known this, had they not kept the original hitbox. Thanks Nadeo :)
they could have made a 2nd variation of the snow car that doesnt have the odd hitbox so old maps arent broken with the current snow car and they can keep the very original car in game if they want to
speaking of downward trend in player engagement mentioned in this comment thread, the fact that they have removed more than half of the campaign from free tier, now those players will probably play less if not outright quit, because free tier players have not been interested in paying in first place, im certain they wont be paying after this, so they just get less people talking about their game
And it took them only two decades AND for a complete random on YT to actually fix it, with quite some ease, for them firsthand. Way to go, Nadeo, way to go!
Nah... I fully understand Nadeo on that one. Sphere colliders are extremely computationaly efficient, much more so than box colliders for example (non axis-aligned). Nowadays that's not as relevant anymore, but usually physics collisions are extremely unstable and hard to tune towards a fun gameplay. It would take many of hours of playtesting to make sure that one particular collider would work the way its really expected. If it doesn't, its back to the drawing board. Maybe they tried, maybe their first try turned out not to work, so they didn't follow up on it... As it turns out though, the community suggestion seems to work as a charm, so they will take a deeper look into it. I'm a game designer myself, and I would probably take the same course of action as they did, especially given that they probably have a huge backlog of other issues they want to take care off...
OMG. I was just screaming at my monitor for this to happen last night. It was driving me absoluteley insane... I think my sarcastic remarks were something like "Oh... I guess I landed too perfect.. WTF?!?!?!?!?!?".
Hopefully this will let us appreciate the snow car as something that's excellent at its own thing, and not as a gag or a new gameplay mechanism that's bogged down by janky design. This will surely pave the way for new vehicles and more varied track design.
can you link content you react to (like yt videos, reddit etc.) in the description? Its just a small extra, but it would improve the viewer experience by a lot. Thanks for keeping us updated
i feel like they had a better hitbox for the original snowcar, but the put the wrong file in. and had no idea until today that the hitbox they thought they were using wasnt there
I guess they initially valued recreating the original feeling more than adapting it to the modern game's feel. But as many people said, some of the original feeling was "frustration with landing bugs" and I don't think that's worth keeping for nostalgia. Sometimes, reviving the old things allows you to make them even better and it's great. So good on Nadeo, and I hope that if they actually bring all the old car models into the current game as some have said, they will immediately update the hitboxes.
1st things 1st, sometimes developers spend days finding one line of code that is breaking stuff and fixing it... props to community for helping them out. props to nadeo for understanding the community value speed and consistency over the classical feel, which may have been what they were inteded. Understanding your playerbase disagree with a design choice and pretty much admitting 'yeah ok this is terrible we´ll fix it', I think is very well done from nadeo 👏
Nadeo saw wirtual grinding Winter 08 and thought, lets make him do another 5 minutes 😄 Jokes aside, i think Nadeo can still keep the original spirit of the snow car alive by including a second version of the snow car with the original hitbox in the next update. Like its surely not a limitation today to just add another block and car that has the fixed hitboxes maybe called Snow (Competitive) and Snow (Legacy). It would keep the game feel alive and those who wants to make maps with the same legacy feel as the original snow car but competitive players get an experience that is well, competitively playable.
This reminds me of how Nintendo didn't implement the original NES Super Mario Bros physics to Mario Maker, because it felt wrong to play testers. I believe they ended up using the New SMB Wii physics on the Mario Bros 1 levels in Mario Maker
I mean, it's kinda hard to call this "clarity in hindsight" because...well...they had the hindsight already That being the Trackmania snow car they imported 1:1 from TM 2003
Nadeo should be praised for just making the obvious change, but I think there's also a learning experience here for them. In 2023 their customers expect them to consider things like "should we remove the landing bugs from this old car?" when introducing content. To most people that seems like a pretty basic thought when adapting old content. Nobody has ever liked landing bugs, it was just something that had to be dealt with as part of the limitations of how the old games were made and that slight negative didn't overwhelm the greatness that was the rest of the game. But if they have the option of removing something frustrating like that because technology has advanced then they should. And if they're going to introduce more of the older cars, then similar considerations need to be made from the start. Maybe they want to keep the physics as authentic to the old games as possible, but they can do that while still removing glitchy behaviour resulting from older technical limitations.
With records, they should label old ones prior to a major patch that would make it easier and have those ones stand on a separate leaderboard so that people can still be proud of their old records instead of them being completely wiped off by other players because it is now easy to beat.
i dont think the problem was nadeo not doing it before when people said that it should be fixed, but that nadeo "lied" that it would be difficult when i would say it clearly isnt that difficult as multiple random dudes did it by themselves and it didnt take long to fix it afterwards for nadeo themselves
Nadeo: "Analog keyboards/custom steering keys hurt competition!" *𝙖𝙙𝙙𝙨 𝙖 𝙗𝙪𝙜𝙜𝙮 𝙘𝙖𝙧 𝙩𝙤 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙜𝙖𝙢𝙚* Nadeo: "Well we don't want to fix it, because it might ruin the feel of the car..."
"Gloating" is the right word. Also, "rubbing it in" is a common idiom for it, as well as "I hate to say I told you so, but..." and it's not uncommon to riff a bit on the last one.
Good on Nadeo for changing their mind under general public feedback. But, are you telling me that they made a downhill jumping map in the campaign using a car that was guaranteed to landing bug after every jump? That was a decision.
You could have at least had the courtesy to link the fixed collision video in the description. Anyone interested in specifics (like me) has to go search for it themselves and that's not cool.
Did i overhear, or is there no news on fixing landing bug on stadium car? I mean, it's good they fix such an atrocious case of hit box problems. But yknow.. people have been using the normal car for even more time. I'd love to see that fixed some day
Here is the thing, bugs that are just bad and objectively affects the performance of the player need to be fixed. My thought, after watching the video, why circles, though? The hit box should be poligons and not hitboxes.
Note: Hitboxes not matching visual models is still common in most games, especially any real-time online ones. Physics calculations are incredibly expensive, so reducing hitbox geometry to a bearable minimum is a requirement even for modern computers.
I love when developers say something would be "too hard" to do and yet modders do it in less than a single day of unpaid work with no real issue whatsoever. Modern game devs really are something else sometimes man.
@@tntreeHow much did Nadeo consider by implementing a one to one copy of a 20 year old car that has an exceptionally bad choice of hitbox? It was already bad and easily avoidable in 2003 but it could have been fixed at any point when implemented in United, TM2, and now TM2020.
@@baba0rum I highly doubt they'd still be using the same engine or is compatible between versions. They more than likely had to manually make it this way. Which, to be fair, I get as it's basically nostalgia bait for early trackmania players and having it function like the original is great for that. And in all likelihood people would have also complained that snowcar wouldn't drive like the original.
@@relo999 I mean, there's not really any reason for a 3D model to not be compatible with any software like game engine, they def didn't have to remake it, if something they maybe had to convert it to like gltf or like whatever the engine copes with the best if it used to be different. But that's kinda just like converting audio formats or whatever, not that hard to do.
I'm soooo beyond happy that they really got rid of their old mindset of "If it's broken, sucks to be you". Best example being the landing bug in TMNF to TM2. Or the backwards driving bug. Or the Rammsteinbug. Or ....
