NBA Players and Analysts Expose Why The Ring Argument Is Flawed 

Lol I get tired of everyone at r/nba hating on you. Idk how to use cash app though. If you set your video to premier I could totally donate through super chat. I'm all for that you have a great channel

Keep up the good work. Glad to have you back

@@Arcanenix smh r/nba

@ Ibrahim Smith He'll probably take it personally and release another documentary.

Jordan probably doesn’t care, does it change his bottom line?

@@dlbarnes for him I don’t think it’s about a bottom line. It’s about competition and wanting to be the best at all times, never being outshined.

This video is more damning to Kobe’s career than Jordan’s... but I guess he won’t take it personally...

@@floyd9727 interesting point actually. I notice Kobe never gets mentioned in those GOAT debates.

Anybody that watched the games should've seen that the only time Kawhi carried was that series against the Sixers. Every other series was a total team effort.

@@slackerofhell Which was important but yes it was a total team effort. Siakam actually if it wasn't for game 6 could have won Finals MVP. That's how close it was for the Finals

No one said that ppl where talking up spicy p last year

Toronto was literally the best regular season team in the East multiple years in a row even while LeBron was in the East with Kawhi. The only problem they had that kept them out of the Finals was beating LeBron James. They had no way to contain him. Nobody good enough to match his numbers and DeRozen and Lowrey kept choking. But only against LeBron. It's not like they were choking against every team they faced in the playoffs. It was just LeBron in their way. Then Kawhi comes in as an upgrade over DeRozen and simultaneously the one guy who kept beating them LeBron goes to LA so Toronto gets to go through the playoffs without facing LeBron. Upgraded team after already being best in the East. LeBron leaves the East side open. Then Klay and KD get injured after Golden State butchered their roster to sign KD. Everything fell into place for Toronto and Kawhi

See Dirk Nowitzki and Hakeem Olajuwon... more so Olajuwon actually did to it mostly by himself...

Rings count but instead of taking them at face value I think we should look at how much each rings weighs (how much did the individual contribute and were they a focal point) cause 7 Robert horrys rings as great as they are still pale in comparison to LeBrons 4...we need to appreciate finals appearances more...it to is a hell of an accolade

@@GhostD0G8 I agree. But when two great players are similar in legacy then you have to use rings into equation. Obviously you can’t just use rings when one player is great and the other is not so great

It only matters if you don’t have a championship comparing champions to champions you don’t say one is better than the other because of ring count

7 rings? Big Shot Bobby is the GOAT!

@@tomstorm7926 not the rings but the performances to get them.

I agree with you about the context. I also strongly feel that "the ring argument" is usually oversimplified to argue that rings measure greatness AND to argue the opposite. So you couldn't say that Kobe was greater than LeBron only because he had more rings (I'd say he was because of how he dominated him when they went head-to-head) but equally you can't say that LeBron isn't less great than Jordan only because Jordan's rings aren't so important. My personal measurement of a player's greatness is made up of two things: the domination over the opponents and the ability to pull your teammates to great performance throughout the season(s). This normally leads to rings and finals MVP titles. To simplify lets call these two aspects of greatness 'dominance' and 'leadership'. In dominance my all-time list is: 1 Jordan, 2 Shaq, 3 Kobe, 4 Bird, 5 Kareem, 6 Olajuwon In leadership my all-time list is: 1 Jordan, 2 Magic, 3 Duncan, 4 Bird, 5 Kobe, 6 LeBron It's also interesting how the players changed in these aspects in different parts of their careers.

@@thejesterjester Kobe never dominated LeBron. No idea where that false narrative spawned from. In fact, LeBron is 15-6 against Kobe. www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/sn-stats-kobe-lebron-head-head-ages/#:~:text=For%2013%20seasons%20now%20Los,battled%20each%20other%2021%20times.&text=Bryant%20has%20put%20up%2030,has%20done%20it%20eight%20games. LeBron teams has a 71% winning record against Kobe teams, but someone would come out their mouth say Kobe was more dominate. Not only did LeBron beat him twice as much, he statically had better games on both sides of the floor most of the time.

@@ddavis8988 you didn't watch those games did you? Even if LeBron's teams won more often, when they competed directly, Kobe was the dominator to anyone who had eyes - I recommend you watch some footage from the all star game when the old, smaller, less strong Kobe completely shut down LeBron who acted too scared to do anything. And I'm not a Kobe fan by the way.

@@thejesterjester you obviously didn't see the link I just provided you showing LeBron averaging more points, assists and rebounds on better shooting. And yes I watched most of their match ups. Its how I knew someone saying Kobe dominated was BS.

@@thejesterjester you don’t know what simplify means

Agreed. The word everyone doesn’t seem to understand is context

Right

Honestly

Agreed

I think you're the point of them doing that.

I can understand that and Respect that bc Kareem actually has a Legitimate case

@@Azariah-Israel the number of people who call me stupid over an opinion is absolutely insane. And it's always the same fanbases every time. Either MJ, LBJ, or Kobe fans.

@@slackerofhell No disagreement here. Kareem has a case for sure.

My ONLY knock on Kareem is that he played with the greatest PG of all time for a nice chunk of his career & if the greatest 2 players at any position TOGETHER can't surpass that 6 threshold that has to hold some kind of weight in the discussion..... Kareem HAND DOWN has the greatest basketball career on lock from high school to the pros & its not even close

Kareem is mines also

Where are the Cavs now? 😂😂

GOTTEM

Perfectly stated

Actually no, you don't break tiebreakers between 2 "individuals" by going to team accomplishments, that makes no sense at all; especially in different eras.

@@BasketballExamined oh really???? Let me ask you who's better Jimmy Butler or Paul George & why 🤔🤔🤔 Also how you gonna say my way makes no sense at all but then you give no solution yourself so how would YOU decide who's better in the scenario I described?

I'll only give the era argument but we've always used rings as part of the criteria just cuz y'all wanna move the goalposts for you boo thang Lebooboo

@@Tonio5100 I'll answer for you. George is a better talent but butler is a better player and I personally don't think it's close. Butler has performed in big playoffs games and at every stop he's elevated the potential of his teams. When he leaves a team theres a tremendous drop off in success (bulls, sixers, wolves) also when he joins a team their level of success increases (wolves, sixers, heat). On the other side george is extremely talented but he lacks accountability and he usually shrinks in big moments. I will say he's had a few great games but he shrinks more than he shines. And every team he's left hasn't had a fall of in success. The pacers were still a playoff first round exit but have actually been better since he left. Okc still was a playoff team after he left and the clippers were still a playoff team with him there 1st/2nd round team. In closing if 2 players have similar individual statistics then it's only natural to look at team success as a deciding factor becasue usually both players in question are the best players on their teams and the best players should elevate the overall success of said teams whether it be through getting alot of wins, far in the playoffs, or championship victories.

That's called being selective/cherry-picking to find accolade stats that fit your narrative.

@@adonispaloma6664 I have no idea what you just said.

@@MistahUnknown Exactly! Jordan's fanbase cherry picks every stats that makes him superior! I agree he popularized the world of basketball, but this is a team game. Instead of debating who's the best player, maybe we should start debating which team was the best team to win the championship!

JeevS I don’t know how you cherry pick Jordan’s career you can try and downplay his first 8 years we’re he showed he can lead a team and stats and bring them to the playoffs then from there go on to have one of the best careers on nba history so you can’t cherry pick Jordan’s career when it’s all great

@@MrBakerman58 that’s some convincing denial ya got there

Facts. People out here in the comments section are acting like MJ single handedly won 6 ring. Yes MJ is a great, but he wouldn't have any rings if he didn't have descent teammates.

Bruh MJ has less all star teammates BUT Pippen and Rodman are great defensively. Meanwhile LeBron may have more all star teammates but is Kyrie a defensive juggernaut? Is Love a rebounding machine? Sure they can play defense but not as elite. The only times IMO that LeBron has better defense teams, not just offense are the Miami Heat championship teams and 2020 one. Not to take away that special 2016 title tho. Came back in a 3-1 deficit, but at the same time why are they in a 3-1 deficit in the first place at that time? If LeBron has like MJ's teammates like Pippen, Rodman, Harper, Kerr, Kukoc, etc. Better perimeter defenders? I don't think Warriors will have that 3-1 lead. Also all star games are popularity contests. Sure best players can get to play on those games but there are times some players deserved to be all stars but didn't get to be there, as well as some players who don't deserve to be all stars get to be there. So yeah...

But Lebron has 4 rings and 4fmvps

Lmaooo Lebron is a winner you sound insane

@@applycontext9161 4 finals MVPs is a great accomplishment.

@@jemirtoussaint3440 yep not one, not two ... but 4 out of 10 in 17 years is a great accomplishment.

@@LargeDude2023 then why are you acting as if he just puts up empty stats

They should be the last thing in the argument when it comes to comparing individual players and their abilities vs each other, and the players roles on winning those championships should be contextualized in that argument.

He didn't lose. His team lost. It's a team game. The same concept in the video that you might've missed out on.

Lebron underperformed in that Mavs series. Sure some blame should be placed on the team but LeBron shouldn't be exempt from blame cos its a "team game". Such a cop-out

Yes, I forgot LeBron was the only player on the Heat's roster during that time. While it's perfectly ok to criticize LeBron's performance in 2011, it's not ok to blame him for losing to the Spurs.

@@MistahUnknown Bro don't say it's the team. It was LeBron who messed up and choked like hell. He scored 8 points in two games in the finals where it matters the most ...This is why he is no.2

@@nahdissean In 2011 Wade would have won the FMVP..

It usually is used with other stats but anti-ringers like to strawman and pretend the ring argument is only a ring argument. Nobody making the case for rings has ever said Horry was the goat or even top 100. Nobody making ring arguments ever says Russell was better than MJ. Because it was always obvious to everyone that the argument for rings was limited to players who similarly lead/carried teams, achieved great stats, won MVPs, All NBA and All Star selections etc.

You can assess the role and amount of impact a particular player had in his teams title runs along with the competition that he played. The main reason why ppl dont put russell over jordan is because his competition in the 60s was very weak and he had way more help.

@@CopycatNinja875 yeah that’s true as well

Y'all just don't get it. There's no reason to include rings and accomplishments. It's just a lazier way to compare and rank players. No one is saying that people only use rings, the point is that championships and team success don't need to be used at all. You talk about context. Ok so if context matters, then what's the point of even considering the end result? Just look at everything they did individually.

But Russell has 5 MVPs I fail to see how he didn't have the proper accolades. That's more MVPs than anyone but Jordan (tied) and Kareem. As for the other accolades, DPOYs didn't exist his whole career, FMVP existed for 1 season, the one year all defensive teams were a thing he was first team despite being in his last year. As for stats, he regularly led the playoffs in rebounds as well as defensive win shares, which were the only defensive stats at the time. And he led teams that were all time great defenses but average- below average offenses. So even if he wasn't amazing statistically on the offensive end, that doesn't make too much sense. If there's an offensively dominant team like the 87 Lakers, we give credit to the most important offensive player in Magic Johnson. But we don't seem to do the same when it comes to defense. And even looking at his offensive stats, in the early 60s at least, he was often the top offensive player on his team if you look at points, assists, and field goal percentage combined. While after like 63/64, his scoring tapered off, before then (so for about half of his championships) he was one of the top scorers in the league as well as being one of the top assist getters, and in a category of his own for a big man. And besides just the stats, the Celtics offensive strategy was getting stops, rebounds, and then Russell would often throw an outlet pass to start the fast break. He was the most important part of the defense and offense for his whole career, even if he wasn't as impactful in the later part of his career. And that's not even mentioning things like screening which was a big part of his offensive role.

Right, so the Cavs losing in 2007 counts against LeBron? How about 2015 without Love and Irving? 2017 against arguably the greatest team in NBA History? What about 2018 with a clearly inferior team? That's all on LeBron? It's a team game. Not 1 vs 5, player empowerment or not.

@@user-hq4et2wm4v harden is a playoff choker, don't @ me.

@@BasketballExamined 2011 finals choke says hi

@@BasketballExamined he gets credit for each of those teams success so he equally takes blame for their shortcomings. To be clear 2007 IS his fault. He is celebrated for a finals run but conveniently left out was playing a 7th seed (41 win team), a 6th seed (41 win team) and a Pistons team sans Wallace (3x DPOY and Rim Protector) and a HOF coach in Brown. He followed this up by getting SWEPT shooting 35% from the field and 20% from 3pt and under 70% from the line. Yes we can put this on Lebron. 2015 he was overmatched but lets not forget he tried to stack the odds in his favor getting a PF who avg 26ppg and 13 rebounds as the THIRD OPTION. Lebron also shot UNDER 40% as a player who takes a 1/3 of his shots inside of 3ft and was a turnover machine. 2017 his team made a midseason trade that provided depth that acquired Hill who was leading the league in 3pt shooting at the time, Clarkson avg 16ppg and Hood avg 17ppg. After a 40pt blowout vs the Celtics didnt Lebron say "We got a f****** squad now"? 2018 After an alltime great performance in G1 in regulation he went 0 for 5 in overtime. After the game instead of being encouraged they nearly stole a game on the road...didnt Lebron punch a wall and fracture his hand/wrist? Lebron is an amazing talent but the Lebron System (which ironically you yourself made a video about) isnt a winning strategy. Running a stagnant heavy spread iso/pnr system doesnt lend itself to wins (see: Nash, Harden, Giannis, and even Lebron). Lebron didnt run the 'Lebron System' this year. Yes he got assists but he still had a secondary ballhandler (Rondo) distributing (previously Lebron would have micromanaged this) in addition to having AD as well.

@@playthatagainbruh394 he’s been to the finals 10 times but it isn’t a winning strategy? I guess I’m dumb

Yeah people think those 4 wins and 6 loses surpass 6 rings and 0 losses with two 3 peats... Ok you may say rings don't count what about the MVPs fmvps scoring titles all defensive team Mj has more of them ( even though LeBron player longer)... The records he made and broke people neglect these things. LeBron has a great resume but it is not enough to put him ahead of mj. Jordan doesn't need his rings... His other accolades would still beat lebron's... LeBron best of our generation..

The reason they say it does not matter is because wins and losses is a team result. in order to compare players on wins and losses you will have to prove they had equally strong teams and were playing equally strong competition. once all things are equal then you ask who performed better. For example, When the Cavs played the Warriors in the first finals match up both Kyrie Irving and Kevin love got hurt, so the 2nd and third best players on the team were not available. but we count that finals loss as if it is Lebrons fault. How many finals games did Jordan win without his 2nd and third best player on the floor?

@@wizdumbbk That’s called life bro

​@@fury_021 1) MVPs- this is an award that is voted on (by people who do not play) that even the voters acknowledge DOES NOT go to the est player in the league. 2) Finals MVP- this is an award that is voted on (by people who do not play) that is given to the best player on the best TEAM. it is never given to the best overall player in the finals, except the for the first time it was given, when Jerry West got it in a loss. 3) scoring titles cannot be compare when looking at a player who's primary desire is not to score. over Jordan's career he avg about 23 shots a game and avg 30ppg. Lebron avg about 19.6 shots a game for his career and avg 27ppg (a better FG% BTW). so OF COURSE he would not score as many point, he does not shoot as much. The only people you should compare to MJ when it comes to scoring is other people that took 23 shots a game. then we will see who is better 4) All defensive teams- again an award that is voted on but Lebron stopped playing hard defese in the regular season once he left Miami. Why? because he knew he would have to carry an infeior team into the finals and he wanted to extend his career. to compare. to compare MJ and Lebron in most of these categories is like saying MJ beat Lebron at something Lebron was not even trying to do. you get no points for that

@@TPD45 Exactly, that is life. so the only reason to say Jordan is better is because "Sh*t happens" not because he is objectively better

you can't hold that against him. He was born in that era. That's like faulting jordan for playing in a watered down expansion era with 6 different expansion teams.

@TruMusic89 so were the 1990-1998 bulls they only went to 2 game 7s throughout his championship runs. But we call that dominance if its lebron etc its a cakewalk. Non of the teams he beat in the playoffs won a championship when he retired twice expect the lakers but that was a completely different team

@TruMusic89 you do realize the 1990s was more defense oriented. Lots of scores were below 90 hell the jazz scored 54 in a finals game. Now players are so much more skilled that scoring is hard to stop. You can't compare the scoring output of today's game with those of the 90s

A very common misconception is that Bill Russell played against weak competition. There was only 8-12 teams in the league, but less teams meant more competition because teams only kept the best players. Celtics were the league's best team, but they were hardly the only stacked team. Damn near every team was stacked back then.

You're both wrong

@ Lsaac Navarro I don't think so. I've seen some of his videos that aren't necessarily "pro-LeBron" videos.

This argument is the kind of argument and idiot makes. Yes, you can judge a TEAM by how winning they are. But the argument falls apart when you talk about individual greatness. KD won rings with the Golden State Warriors when he went there. He was a top 2 player on that team, you could argue he was their best player. If we instead signed with a team like the Bobcats, think he would have any rings right now? Nope. Does that mean KD would have somehow been a worse player or should get less credit for his career if he signed with a shit team vs. one of the best teams in NBA history? Also nope. He's a great player, but he won because he was on a great team. No GOAT caliber player has ever won a ring on a shit team. Jordan didn't, Magic didn't, Kareen didn't, Kobe didn't etc. If Jordan played with a team like the 2011-2012 Bobcats his whole career and won 0 rings which would have likely been the case, does that mean he's not in the GOAT conversation? Of course not, smarten up.

you have to remember that Imprint on the game has a lot to do with corporate marketing. There were people that never saw MJ play that called him the best because Nike and Gatorade said he was the best. The "like mike" commercials were everywhere. a large part of the reason people think MJ is the GOAT is not based on what he did on the court, but based on what corporate marketing and media put together

@@wizdumbbk and the same will and does happen for most all time greats just not to Jordan’s extent. Most ppl’s top 10’s consist of 50% of players they never watched

@@wizdumbbk Jordan is the reason the NBA is global. So you think they saying he great because a bunch of commercials!?!?Only people that didn't see MJ play would think like this. Lol

for more than half of basketball existence, 23 was just a random number...

@Bob George I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me

If a franchise doesn’t do shit for you then you don’t deserve to give them anything back in return ESPECIALLY when you’re an all time great. It doesn’t make sense to stay in a Franchise that doesn’t compete at all time level, lebron from 2003-2011 had so many bad rosters but yet made the best of it, do you really think if he had stayed in Cleveland they would’ve make a championship team? It goes both ways.

@@josuerojas4157 nobody in the league wants to be in Cleveland. Bron would have been ring free had he stayed in Cleveland all those years. There's no way Cleveland would beat any Western finals squad. He would've kept it real though. In his HOF speech he could talk about how real he was.

That's the whole point of this video, that you can't evaluate an individual by just looking at team success, because some teams are better than others. That includes Final appearances.

He said he didn't do it my themselves, look again. That 81 and 86 championship teams Bird had 3 HOF and 4 HOF when they won, but oh Larry Bird never won with a stacked roster. He did it himself which is false

not relly parish and mchale came in the same year aswell who are all so hof

Facts

you mean the playoffchoker who averages 18 points in 47 minutes for his finals career?

Ntsakiso Chauke Rings aren’t everything, but they are something. The point is that people can’t use rings alone to say which players are better than who. You need to consider other factors like how you preform in the playoffs, how many awards you won, how thought were the opponents you faced, etc. For me, Jordan is the GOAT not solely because he has more rings and that he has a better Finals record than LeBron but for other reasons

None of them are as great as shaq stop it

@ ROME RUSH Same.

@kostas pap Lebron won 4 championships and lost 6 finals, 1 confrence finals, 3 semi-finals and missed the playoffs 3 times. If we shorten the time span to 13 seasons he won 3 championships and lost 4 finals, 1 conference finals, 3 semi-finals and missed the playoffs 2 times. Lebron has had good and even great casts around him but he did miss a lot of opportunities because he was never fully forced to be anything outside of a slasher until 2012 when he started playing PF. Magic had a great cast but he maximized them to the fullest. The Lakers went from losing in the semi-finals to 5 chamionships, 4 finals finishes, 1 confrence finals finish 1 semi-finals finishes and 2 first round finish.

@Reese B because my initial comparison wasn't with Lebron and I shortened it to standardize the comparison with 13 seasons just like Magic and Jordan. You should atleast try and read comments properly in order to understand them instead of whining. I could write a billion notes about anyone's career but that wasn't my goal. My goal was to show that people should evaluate playoff finishes if they want to also talk about championships. Magic was drafted into a golden opportunity, and he made the absolute most of it by going on an unprecedented run of success.

@kostas pap Worthy never played Chicago in the playoffs. He was injured.

but if rings are gonna be relegated to a team accomplishment, then making the finals is also just a team accomplishment. Teams make the finals not individuals

@@kd35beast24 your right but again my point was to showcase the flaws of just saying rings are all that matters.

@TruMusic89 facts

Most of em won some too tho.

@@No-Hassle but, none of them have that undefeated record in the Finals. That's a whole different club that not too many greats are in.

@@chrisgibson2106 That’s grounds to dismiss them?

@@No-Hassle a lot of those guys have a personal vendetta against Jordan.

@@chrisgibson2106 I can understand IT possibly having a vendetta, I don’t know about the rest.

Your argument is dumb and just goes to show how 1-D your simple mind works. Yes, a great player gives there team a better chance to win a championship. And if this was an individual sport like golf or tennis I would agree with you more. But you've got a dozen or so other guys on your team, and they're performance also impacts if you win. Jordan won his last 3 rings with 2 other Hall of Famers. Scotty Pippen nearly won a championship with the Bulls WITHOUT Jordan or Rodman, which shows you just how good the Bulls team was even when Jordan was out. Then you add Rodman, the best percentage rebounder of ALL TIME and one of the defensive GOATS and when your team is stacked like that it's hard to win a championship. Even Steve Kerr who is often overlooked was one of the best 3 point shooters of the 90s and helped that team space the floor. I'm not necessarily saying that a guy like LBJ is greater than Jordan, but look at the first like 7 years of his career on the Cavs. The Cavs were a shit team both before and after Lebron left. They won 17 games the year before he joined, and 19 games the year LBJ joined the heat. They sure as hell weren't winning 60+ games and were championship contenders like Pippen did when Jordan went to play baseball, and that was before they added Rodman. The fact that LBJ help take a garbage team like the Cavs to the final against the loaded Spurs teams is probably the greatest Cinderella story in the history of the NBA despite them not winning the championship. What other team in NBA history has been that weak but made it the the finals? Lots of people like to say the Sixers with Iverson, but the Sixers had defensive player of the year, six player of the year, coach of the year, and were one of the best defensive teams in the league and were better defensively with Iverson off the court then on. Now sure, guys like MJ and Kareem are all time greats, but I guarantee you that if they played on a team like the 2003-2010 Cavs their whole career they wouldn't have many rings if any at all. And I also guarantee you that they wouldn't have won many rings if they were going up against the Warriors with Steph, Clay, Durant, Green, and Iggy who I would argue is the strongest team ever assembled, with maybe only the late 90s Bulls on par with them. No other team in the 90s was on par with that Warriors team. So yeah, you should look at how a players impact on their team, not just how well their team did as a whole, because team success does depend on your teammates and no HOF player no matter how good they are is going to ring a ring if their teammates plays like the 2011-2012 Bobcats.

Hmm, funny cuz when had zero rings they still said he was the best player ever, when he had 3 rings and retired they still said he was the best. So no the narrative hasn't changed. What has changed is fans like u has turned basketball into a individual based act while hating on 1 man in Lebron james because he challenges your fav of all time.

That’s not true. What are you talking about? A smart person should rings in an argument if your comparing 2 players that the MAIN reason for their team winning a ring. The only thing a smart person shouldn’t do is use rings as the only argument.

@@SBGamer30 rings dont determine greatness in any context. Jordan is better than LeBron even if he only won 3 rings LMFAOOOOOOOO there are thousands of reasons Jordan is better than LeBron and I dont even have to use rings.

That’s not the point though

They should be removed.

@@carusohighlightreel4275 your reason for this being?

@@brandon.crotchett Championships are not individual accomplishments, it’s that simple. No matter how great you are, in order to win, you have to be in a right situation. Like Elgin said in the video, “you can only go as far as the team can take you”. This is simply the fact that there is too much out of one player’s control. When you say “championships matter”, you’re using the championships themselves, but then people will say “context matters”, and to that I say, what’s the point of considering the championship itself if you consider all the context, kinda redundant. So yeah, don’t use championships, and just look at what a player does individually.

@@carusohighlightreel4275 then by your logic, anything a player does in a team sport is not individually. Whether it’s awards that are decided subjectively by other people (out of the player’s hands), or statistics, which rely on teammates to accomplish. You can’t get an assist without someone to pass the ball to. You can’t score if all 5 opposing players are guarding you (many mention Kobe, Jordan, LeBron on “bad teams” even though they still had teammates taking up bodies). One can’t rebound if they’re getting boxed out by 4 other guys. And good luck getting a steal or a block in 5-on-1 with that ball movement. It’s a team sport, no matter how you slice it, it takes a team to win, put up numbers, and take home awards. No one player ever truly does it on his own. And for my final point. Athletes play to win, whether it be the game or the title. Excluding that from these arguments literally removes the main purpose and drive of sports players.

@@brandon.crotchett You’re looking at it wrong. I’m not saying winning doesn’t matter, I’m simply saying an accomplishment is meaningless on its own. It adds no unique value, ergo it doesn’t need to be considered. The point players in a team sport never truly accomplishing anything completely on their own is somewhat true for very vague descriptions. Regardless, it doesn’t disprove what I’m saying.

Yes, the narritive changes every year, Lebron get another ring and they will talk about another thing. This is the same thing with any other fan, they are just "jordansexuals" like they call lebron fans as bronsexuals. Even if someone in the next 2 decades won 10 rings, they will still say mike was better, and tougher "the nba is soft right now".

This is his last ring.

@@vicshephard9231 I wouldn't speak so soon, peds or not, Lebron is literally playing as if he's still 29 or some shit, and now AD is staying too? I highly doubt this will be his last chip unless injuries or another team just straight up stack the deck like Golden state did. But we'll see...

@@TH-ph9br his age has been showing for a while now. I remember LeBron at 29. You're smoking if you think he's still on that level.

@@vicshephard9231 Mans literally chased westbrook around with little to no problem, at age 35. Like I said nigga, this dude is moving like he's still 29 or some shit. You're the one smoking here but stay sleep

And I stress one of and even then you have to apply context, when Bill Russell won 11 chips that was a different league with less number of teams and lesser quality players

For me another factor is the fact that had it not been for Michael Jordan, chances are I wouldn't have known and loved the game as much as I do now, Jordan made the game global that a kid from South Africa like myself now follows the game, that's impact very few can say they have imprinted on the game

That’s not the point though.

But if a guy doesnt have a good team how is he suppose to win?

@ Lighthouse maccabee Many of Jordan's teammates said that Scottie was the true leader of some of those teams.

@ Lighthouse maccabee Also, many of Jordan's teammates said that he didn't deserve one or 2 of those Finals MVPs. MVPs are subjective.

@@MistahUnknown site the teammates names

@@lighthousemaccabee8133 "If I had a vote in that first championship for MVP it would have been Scottie," said Grant. "He brought his whole game and everyone could see. The way he played Magic (Johnson) and made him turn and turn and turn and made him work like that was the difference, especially after we lost the first game. And he averaged more than 20 points. I think he was our leading scorer when we won." "When Michael retired, Scottie became our leader and we were one phantom foul from playing Indiana in the Eastern Conference finals," said Grant. "And we beat them that season (4-1, including the last meeting in Indianapolis). That season showed his leadership and that he could carry a team. He had to step into that role and he did, and we were successful, more than anyone thought we ever could be. Everyone wrote us off, but we knew the kind of players we had and we knew how good Scottie was. I wasn't surprised at all." "He was the most popular teammate we had," says Grant. "You could laugh with him and joke and he wasn't the kind of guy who got mad. He was a fun teammate, fun to be around and always cared about everyone. If you had a problem, you could always talk it out with him. And he loved the game and the team. He was unselfish, but unselfish to a fault. We knew when he had the ball he was going to make a play and score or find the open guy. We had some great times."

@@lighthousemaccabee8133 Check out the 2 videos by Jaranarm titled "Scottie Pippen - Made Man" and "Scottie Pippen - Mr. All Around". I think those have the answers you're looking for. If the not, I'll find the answers for you after work.

Sure he's close, but he's chasing a dragon he'll never catch

@@kor6bigtime592 and that's your right to think, however LeBron has a few things going for him that MJ doesn't and vice versa. Both have their side to the story. MJ's scoring, defense, skill, and perfection is an edge over LeBron, but LeBron's passing and playmaking, versatility, and insane longevity gives him a case too.

Sean2k I think it’s all about what people value. I value peak so I go with MJ. Lebron definitely wins on longevity

I respectfully disagree and believe that rings should matter because when trying to split hairs amongst the all time greats, ring should count because Rings are the ultimate accomplishments. And although championships are a team accomplsihment, there are players on the team who are more important to the team than others and that should be considered. Like LeBron only started getting into the GOAT debate after 2016 when he won a ring. Like by the logic that rings don't count, then Jerry West should be a top 10 player of all time because he greatly impacted the Lakers chances at winning and went to 9 finals but we knock him because he only has 1 ring.

@@darrengordon-hill so playmaking/passing, defense, longevity is all predicted on LeBron SOLELY bullying smaller players? What makes LeBron so deadly is that he's been able to combine elite guard skills with his once in a lifetime physique.