That polymorph change seems kind of extreme; didn't elf use cyclone to essentially neuter orc for 10+ years? And cyclone at least makes whatever it targets invulnerable.
@@operationancut you generally have archmage mana aura at 2 by then, it will fill up the sorcs mana "fast enough" if you skip on spamming slow ... i see what they wanna do, but you already have mk for the hero control ... so vs undead i can see hammer + poly - hero focus ... or even vs night elf , if the dh is not on top of the game with mana burns, this can turn nasty maybe make the hero invulnerable while polymorphed ? or reduce mana cost in general and make all targets invulnerable when polymorphed ? maybe even reduce from 3 to 2 seconds ?
Tbf I'd prefer stronger spiked carapace than beetles coz beetles are dispellable CL could've been super tanky hero for late game with tome of retraining
Well Infi and Fly both agree that the polymorph change won't matter at all, at least for 1v1, because everyone will still prefer master priest's inner fire over polymorph given limited resources, and you won't mass sorceress just because of one skill that requires 200+ mana. The same goes to tauren, because the major issue is that it costs too much lumber and 5 food supply, no one can afford tauren at tier 2 anyway if you still want some raiders
Why even upgrade grunts with berserker strength on tier 2 when you can get Tauren. Hex, raider, and tauren on tier 2 will be ridiculous in most match ups.
They spread insane disease clouds. They dont need to be anything else than tanks and mana sources. Every ud unit does more than enough dmg. Fiends, heroes, orb with statues are insane, ud does not need abo to do better than right now
I agree, and I think giving them an armor buff would be the way to do it. This would reinforce their role as a tank/disease spreader rather than auto-attack damage dealer like the other heavy T3 melee units. And it would make coil more efficient on them
It's a bit absurd just how much better at razing bases it is compared to its direct competition (Earthquake, Death & Decay, Tornado, etc). It's not necessarily a problem - it's not like ultimates need to be equally strong - but this is also just reverting a buff that Volcano received on 1.32.6, while maintaining the higher damage it also has now, so it's just evening things out a bit I think.
Wand of Negation is a really cool but also dangerous change. Cool because having dispell in an accessible item without the need of a unit is special. Dangerous because that basically opens up supply that you otherwise kind of need for destros (for their dispell not for their strength). UD armies could be so much stronger if no need for destros. So, the item must be expensive, but not too expensive to avoid rendering it unplayable. I would almost dare to bet that figuring out the right balance will take a while and, until then, the item will not be popular (either "gamebreaking" or "useless"). But once it is fixed, I think it will be a very healthy and cool change.
Yes or it would make status spells: buffs debuffs useless for your enemy. It would also do damage to summons. It would make many strategies unviable reducing variety in the game wich 8s baddddðd Rip summons inner fire cyclone bloodlust slow roar feary fire curse and cripple It would be boring. I am making the assumption wand of negation works as in the campaign. It jumps multiple targets like healing wave and chain lightning
Something else to think about is how Destro's have such a low CD, that between 2-3 of them, you will always have it up. Wand means you have limited uses to get rid of Hex, Slow, Entangle, etc.
I see no reason to assume UDs will change their army makeup. In addition to dispel, Destroyers are also the primary source of Magic attack in the UD army, which is the most direct counter to Heavy armor units. And if they don't change army makeup, it will simply give them a far quicker access to dispel which gives a fast way to invalidate Water Elementals, Feral Spirits, skeletons and Treants (as well as Entangle) so I imagine its sheer presence will be a buff in every matchup. It's quite a dangerous move at the very least. But it may open up the possibility to increase the cooldown on Devour Magic as well, which could balance it back out.
@@Karifean Destros are not good fighters. Players play them for dispell not for their fighting strength. Without the need for dispell, alternative army compositions will be stronger. It will lead to stronger UD armies IF the wand is worth it
grubby didnt talk that much about wand of negation, but that change is as big as having taurens in t2. as you said, ud will no longer be relegated to destroyers to dispell things, which means more strategies become available!
I think POTM change actually is a bit more impactfull than you predict. The most POTM usage is with AP rush, so you won't have tier3 for orb. Also vorpal blade upgrade change supports AP rush. I think it will make AP rush with POTM much stronger.
If yiu want to fix glaives lower the repair time. It is currently higher than both meatwagon and demolisher, meaning if it takes damage you can't repair it in time.
I think Searing Arrows should have some additional utility or it will never be good and never better than Venom Orb. Maybe it could grant a small damage boost against targets for a time like +5%/10%/15%, but I don't know if the "team" can implement that
Poly is obviously silly. Blades is good and needed imo. I am not sure what the solution to taurens are but I don't think this is it. POTM will still be bad. MG and glaive changes are whatever. UD ghoul frenzy is a good change. Good to see that UD casters get some sorta buff. Taking out scrolls makes sense but what else will UD get from their shop beyond an orb? Wand of negation? I guess. Destroyers are one of the absolute best units in the game and that item will not take the place of their usage accept the earlier parts of the game when they are unavailable. Freezing breath? What units use that again? LMAO. Wagon speed is good.
Curse being able to target mechanical unit might be a huge nerf in some case, after human gyro finish off undead destroyer, they can now act as spell absorber to deplete banshee mana
First take for me: Polymorph should heal up the unit they used on and brake immediately on damage taken. Like the same way in WOW. That would at least give consideration to the human if they dare to use it or not. Tauren main problem still not fixed, they are slow. Give them a charge ability in tier3. That would allow them to get close to the desired targets. wand of negation is clearly a counter to the new polymorph. other updates looks fine
No need of Taurens at tier 2. What Taurens really need is somewhere between 15-30% magic resistance, to be able to sustain vs magic dmg and spells. That's it.
@@4bafiafzil999 it's not the same. Orcs have the most useless t3 unit of all, and it is the only t3 unit they have. NE have bears and chims, UD have destros and wyrms, HU have knights and grifs. All other races except Orc have heavy magic dmg dealer (chims/grifs/wyrms+destros), which is the hard counter of the heavy armor that taurens & grunts have. Also this t3 unit is like beefier and more expensive grunt. No justified reason of producing it against other races. It needs magic resistance and there's a lot of reason behind that, not just for the sh*t talk. Even Remo advocated for it, if I'm not mistaken!
Nobody plays Taurens ^^'. Also Not on Tier 2. Change the Movemetspeed, Delete the Totem and transfer the Taurens into the Baracks and the Spiritwalker into the Spirit Lounge. That were a Change that helps Orc!
Although I am new to the game and have no clue about balance, I don't think allowing polymorph on heroes is a good thing. Hex is casted by a hero unit, it makes sense that they would work on heroes since you can't spam them. I don't see how that's going to make up for good interactions and fun gameplay. Let's wait and see but I'm skeptical of those changes
Good thing they are changing gargs match up through removal of scroll of healing. At some point NE can't keep up with buying heal scroll, so I think it is a step in the right direction. The negation wand does make destroyer optional, although t3 is still a must for ud
@@orcuser Can you link me the game where warden panda beat gargs. Warden AoE has limited targets so it is not good against 100/100 supply, ult is useless against gargs, panda drunken, and gargs just press stone form and they don't care at all
@@joking3862 I'm sure there's plenty out there, elf can also go alchi heal spray my boy, where UD are basically forced to always go DK, because ud only Regen on blight so need aura, and basically all their unit speed is balanced around it. Also aren't hypos lite armor while garg are unarmored? Zzz
Some of changes are wierd like the curse which is already broken Esp when used on heroes with such long duration . Some changes are good like the healing scroll remove from ud shop . Tauren change is big ? But might be good for the game we will see Ghoul frenzy right direcetion but how Neo said it is not enough . In my opinion polymorph is might be right thing because it cost so much mana , but can be potential broken. The night elf changes did not gonna change anything , but maybe they just need other races like ud to be nerf to get better .
I do like the idea of undead not being dependent on destroyers. I mostly played back in the very long patch several years ago. Before the destroyer nerf. Played human, so that is kindof matchup specific. But that unit always felt over-centralizing. Air and magic immune. So many things can't kill that. Not that bad against bats. Dragon hawks are mediocre against it. Overall kindof a boring unit. The fewer destroyers I see on the screen, the more fun the game
I think everyone in this comment section forgets a few things about Polymorph: - It costs 50% of the Sorceress maximum mana - Every source of Dispel is either free or costs considerably less mana (even considering lvl 3 Brilliance) - It breaks upon taking damage (it's not Hex) - To effectively 'chain CC' an enemy Hero, you'd have to mass Sorceress, and then you'd probably lose for that reason alone I'm much more worried about Taurens being on the battlefield at T2.
@@bryansweeney3077 I just tested if Polymorph breaks upon taking damage, and you're absolutely right, it does not. I am with everyone else now, this change is way too much.
I think the pm owl should be able to pick up moon wall healing to have in a fight but make to where you can kill the Owl one of ne biggest problem is they have no healing in a fight unless they are home
@@hunlepto2239 Actually, there are only 6 hero spells with damage cap: Carrion swarm, fan of knives, cluster rockets, breath of fire, rain of fire and blizzard Others, including ultimate has no AoE damage cap
@@4bafiafzil999 Oh yeah, true, though 5 of those are basically main spells heroes use. I wouldn't mind others getting a cap too like MK Clap, tho atleast it should have a higher cap considering it's not a ranged spell.
The "neat thing" that Orcs get at tier 3 is tiny great hall, which is a pretty good unit. Overall I'm okay with Tauren at tier 2, but I think maybe they should have say 1200 HP and the pulverize upgrade should also increase hp by 100. Tauren are still expensive in terms of food and build time taking 9s longer than grunts, 2 food more expensive, +80 gold and +80 lumber over grunts. Tauren and Shaman sounds really fun though. I think Tauren are still weak to Banshees and Destroyers in the UD matchup.
Orc t2 is the fastest in the game, you can tauren rush before destros are out. That's kinda the problem. Spirit walkers which are trained from the same building as taurens, gets dispell vs curse from banshees. Possession on paper counters taurens, but at the time they come out, the orc will most likely have raiders as well, which can interrupt forever with ensnare. Gonna be interesting how it plays out.
@@user-cp6hx6vu9c Sure you could go demolishers I guess. But they're slow, fragile and now vulnerable to stuff like curse and they need to be manually repaired. Tauren at t2 are probably most oppressive to night elf from what I've seen suggested.
@@Vigsoe14 I thought UD and potentially HU were still hitting t2 the fastest. I don't think banshees are a "hard" counter to tauren, but certainly strong. I just wonder what NE is going to do against t2 tauren.
Late game boost for human. Human struggles with undead at top tier in the early and mid game. So a boost in late game solves nothing for that skill level.
Maybe poly for 1 sec heroes... big cost, small debuff... a trade off Crazy Tauren proposal If course and cripple are used on mech, it should be half time and half the strengh Ghoul frenzy debuff is not enough NIce shake up in general
Not really, if you make 4-5 grunts during tier 1 and they all survive to tier 2, it's worth the research. But taurens at T2 sounds imba, especially because no race can hard counter them, dragons are available only at tier 3. Somebody here had a good idea, make weaker taurens at T2 (lower HP, no pulverize), and add a pulverize+HP research available at T3. That might be cool to see...
I don't think so? You still get more bodies and HP per point of food (275 hp/food vs 260 hp/food) to do things like bodyblock or serve as targets for lightning shield. Grunts are about similar in terms of hp/gold (~4.15 vs 4.64) if you factor in that tauren also cost lumber. Though Grunts do have less armor and don't hit as hard. If you want to play raiders you're going to continue to use Grunts, if you want to play walkers you're going to continue to use Grunts. Transitioning from Grunts to Tauren isn't going to be quick or easy as it's 70s build time on the totem and then 39s on the first tauren out of it (at a whopping 5 food!). More bodies is sort of a good thing because it helps with Spirit link, should you choose to opt into that and it still allows you to produce grunts off of barracks and walkers off of totem as opposed to.... headhunters or nothing + tauren.
@@hkgamma the problem with that is the fact that they will either be too week on t2 to even bother building them until t3, or they will be to imba. Unless you make the upgrade to buff them on t3 and it also raises their pop cost..... which is also kinda ass....
It seems all this balance patch turns arround Happy. If they continue nerfing ghouls they are going to kill them, and they know it. They are strong in T3 but if cross the line they become free XP. Curse is a good way to reduce 1/3 tank damage, and is good to see how they realize this unit is boring and abusive (poor risk great damage potential) I would personally prefer they cant be targeted by staff. Would be nice a useful and situacional T3 item in UD shop replacing the scroll. Dispell on T2 is not mandatory, you make destros because is the best dispell in the game (and free.) Ud had played without dispel in T2 for many years, i cant see the point. Good change for taurens, i like it. Elves... meh, dissapointed. Polymorph is not going to be used. 175/200 single target spell that can be dispelled easily is not realible enough. Maybe for temporary stop a TC stomp or similar... but slow is way better way to spend sorc mana.
ghouls are kind of lame in concept, making them a strong unite and gather wood is just too much..... Considering how much other races invest into wood economy with mostly useless workers...... 50 /50 supply ud always has the larger army because of that which is silly. The best thing to do here would be to nerf ghouls and turn them into t1 workers with a strenght of lets say militia and give ud a dedicated t1 unite. But thats never going to happen since blizzard cant be bothered to do more for then game then tweak basic numbers.
@@123pa1n Not completly agree with you. Wisps are cheap, faster, can detonate and collect wood from every point of the map, they are very good scouts. Once upgraded HU with the same population will collect wood faster than gouls, add the power building and milita and you will get best worker in the game. Orc... well they are well protected and have the most HP, and most value in defence, but still think they are the worst. Workers fullfil other roles than harvesting but if you don want to invest pop in them just take one shredder. Are ghouls, a T1 unit, too overwhelming in late game?? this is the main issue with them. Yes I know they are really good taking wood and also can fight but lest be honest... acolytes sucks, and you have to compensate this
@@Aidemusss its not about them being the best wood collectors. Its about them being also being a viable combat unite all the way from t1 to t3. Which means if you pull all of them for major fights you always have a supply advantage.
@@123pa1n And you dont need to, workers while fulfilling other roles or shredder in late if you dont want to invest in workrs. Ghouls are dangerous at T3, but in T1 they are an EasyToKill footman. in T2 they are horrible, fighting vs riders, rifles, huntress or fiends is not easy. they shine in early T3 when frenzy just finish. After that you need some kind of adventage, because in every exchange your are going to lose a few. Heres with good lvl are going to kill them easy and some late units trade with them very well (specially taurens). For me, the final solution would be increase frenzys time investigation, give opponent more time to react.
Mass dispell needs a nerf of some kind, if necros should ever be viable. Either make it more expensive, or give it a target cap. Will also help A LOT against the tauren armys that will march against the undeads in the ptr. RN necros just feeds the opponents heros with skeletons, and cripple is pretty expensive as well. Not to mention, that when you get cripple, every race has dispell already. I'm torn about the curse change. I think it's a problem that the only counter UD has against gyros is a hero abillity. Curse could be cool the see against gyros. On the other hand, it's broken vs. tanks. Polymorph seems crazy strong, I'll rather let it stay as it is and make it cheaper in mana. Neo's take on taurens I rly agree with. If they should be avaliable t2, then nerf them a bit, and give them an extra upgrade at t3. It will still be really strong, and I bet we will see tauren rushes. Potm is a hard hero to balance due to it's design. It's the kind of hero that either feels super bad, or super broken. An effect on her fiery arrows could be cool. Maybe let the target burn for the damage recieved by the fiery arrow over 10 seconds. Then you'll get rewarded for microing her (least micro heavy hero in the game atm), and spreading the burn by her auto attacks. Ofc the damage would need to be nerfed a bit, or it would be too broken. For reference the orb of venom does 9dmg pr. second for 6 seconds, meaning 56 dmg to the target you hit. Alternatively it should get a secondary effect. Increase the dmg the burning unit take from spells by x%. That would make it a cool support hero for the DH, to make mana burn more effective, or make wardens nuke better (also since you can spread the effect before a fan of knifes). If it's a scaling effect it could be 10/20/30. Meaning that if you get hit by a lvl 3 fiery arrow, followed up by a lvl 3 mana burn, you'll lose 195hp and mana. Could be a pretty cool dynamic. Most importantly, it will provide the potm with an abillity the NE player will have to actually micro to be effective. Crypt lords damage return when hit should be way higher. Make him a terrible target for melee units. Give tinkers engineering upgrade a mana regen bonus or buff the hp of pocket factory or give him more base int.
Polymorph on heroes has to be close to the worst idea I have seen in a while. Taurens on T2 is bonkers. Wand of negation.... yeah UD sure needs more shit to just fuck up the game. Ghoul frenzy nerf is not enough. Scroll of healing removed from UD shop is actually something good. Night elf "buffs" are just random stuff. Doesnt matter at all.
They should stop calling these balance changes. The game will never be balanced and it never should be. These are just changes to create new strategies and make the game more interesting
Take away the stacking and buff the entire race to help them out... Just need to see how comparatively how trash the heroes are to the other races. Why would moon well get nerfed when they already have the worst healing? :/
Lol ghouls are already free tombs of xp Tauren the strongest melee unit at t2 when they already have kodos is just crazy Looks like the game is gonna go back to ud having to play 350 percent better vs orc to stand a chance, what do u make ghouls? Lmao...fiends will ve tauren NP, ok lets make unarmored garga into bat/raider then???? Lmaaao fire whos ever in charge of balance.
Hi Neo, Chaosfr0nt here ;) Comments on your comments: Polymorph: If polymorph is now already “incredibly” strong - why is it also the least used HU spell as you said? If we are talking pro play here, like we always focus on, we are talking about a dispellable cast on T3, where every race will already have dispel, so I strongly disagree with that making it overly powerful. You see sorc master training and have your dispel ready, this is just mechanics at that point. Sundering blades: is It clear at which tier the upgrade becomes available? I don’t see a problem with knights being too strong. Tauren: this is maybe THE least used unit in the game, so something had to be done there. maybe change the armor type and only let them upgrade on heavy at T3 alongside pulverize? Potm: agree, this will not change much, but appreciate the effort MG: agree, won’t change much, but in general, 7 supply is just ridiculous for any unit. 6 should be the top. Vorpal blades: Don’t have any opinion on that either xD Ghoul frenzy: has to be nerfed, doenst impact the lumber harvesting “upgrade” within frenzy, so guess it’s a start, have to see how it plays out Curse: I don’t get the intention on the mechanical stuff, cant be just against tanks, but it has to be nerved on heroes. 33% miss on heroes is too strong. Either don’t let it last as long or make it 15-20% miss chance Cripple: not the right move to get cripple played more often Scroll of healing: agree Wand of negation: I agree UD could use dispel on T2, but this is too easy and early. Don’t even need any T2 building is crazy. Is keeper even going to be playable any longer? If the prize for going out vs keeper earlier and less risky is 200 gold UD will pay it any day of the week… Meat wagon: Don’t get the reason; wasn’t necessary Frost wyrms: Yeah could use something else as a buff
I don't get it. I have been saying this for years. Skellis from Rod and Dark Ranger need to give more XP. At least 20XP. That should be the first and foremost change for UD. Human buff is ridicolous. Won't last. Humans are fine as they are. Tauren need to be more playable. I would suggest to make them 10 Gold / 10 lumber cheaper as a start. Or increase the movement speed by 5. POTM change is a refreshing sight. The rarest played hero of all the four races.
Frenzy should work in a similar way as berserk, great bonus, but with a flaw ( more damage taken). Also add a tier 2 tech that increases ghoul survivavility). That way, without frenzy they can stay in the fight for longer and if u want them to hit harder, take the risk.
I don't think that fits the game design. Upgrades are supposed to be... Well, upgrades. Universally good. The only upgrade that has a "downside" in the game, as far as I can remember is the orc burrow upgrade (That changes armor type to fortified) but there's very few units that deal siege damage so it's considered universally to be good. The other upgrade like that is necromancer swap 1 skeleton soldier with 1 sskeleton mage for their ability. But that ability is otherwise strictly optional.
i mean come on, if your giving undead t2 despell without any upgradecost/time whatsoever, then atleast nerv destros..... otherwise what are you supposed to play against this goddamn race. YOu cant attack the base most of the time. Now your hero summons become ass the moment they reach t2 which makes the situation worse..... I mean come on Neo 200 gold is a lot? If uds play ghouls how much money do they actually spend on t1 on economy only? They build 2 accos and are done. How is that fair exactly? Not only do they save PoP, they also save all the money that other races spend on workers...... ghouls being a viable strat at t3 is a mistake.... PS. Maybe give the defense upgrades like 5% mag resist for each tier? Along with the armor? I never understood why you get 0 tools to deal with mag dmg. Also watching an ud hit and run killing atleast 1 unite with coil+nova isnt just bullshit, its also lame...
For Human-Players this PTR looks kinda bad. Even if Polymorph would be insane you still have no usecases for sorcs on T3. Then Knights get a huge nerf. Human is the only race which will get nothing to work with out of this patch if this goes through. Again: Polymorph sounds insane but there are no usecases for sorcs armies on T3. If you think different tell me pls which Matchup and which Army-Composition.
knight nerf is not "huge" ... it just nerfs how fast HU late game arrives by making it so that u cannot make 2 knights right at T3, but after that the power remains the same as it is now.
it could be good against undead, Hu often go T3, if you make enough gyros to counter destros then you could use sorcs on the ground to polymorph undead heroes, to focus the lich and morph the dk to unable him to coil.
@@Eudemoni_ i mean its clearly a nerf and will definitely have an affect, but it's not a "huge" nerf like the person im responding to is trying to claim it as.
ne still needs to be nerfed ud needs mine built time back to 100s orc spirit walker a bit mana buff like shaman and catapult buf, maybe oil buf human footies defense passive armor add, so immolation and nova still works, but heroes auto attacks are less effective, and breakers back to heavy armor, may be animal training t2 for hawks
