I think if the build quality and workflow is the same as the Zero it will be a very capable flat burr grinder. I do think the decision by Niche to only sell the grinder with the two burr sets, rather than giving people the option to choose between espresso or filter focused burrs is a strange one. Especially considering the competition in the market now with Sculptor 78S and DF83, it seems like selling one burr set and bringing the price down a bit might give them a bit more of an edge.
Having both burrs will add value with time. Reselling, upgrading your espresso grinder from it so now it makes filter, even you changing focus from this to that. But yes, totally unnecessary
A new set of mazzer burrs is 70 euros so it wouldn't significantly change the price I think. Maybe they could sell it for £725 instead of £800 but I'd prefer them including it over making it a £100 upgrade.
@@jadoei13 Some people have made the point that they would even want to replace the mazzer burrs with 83mm SSP, so a single burr option would probably be appealing to them even if only saving 70 dollars.
Thanks, I’m looking forward to your full review. Since many of us own the Niche Zero already, it would be good to compare the Duo with the flat burr conversion of the Zero.
I think I’d be interested to hear your impressions on the flat burr of the duo vs. conical burr of the zero and if that makes a noticeable difference in the grind and the taste.
@@lars14701 Niche Zero has such a wide grind distribution that made it very easy to dial but also bound to have a muddled taste. It is quite bad and a waste of money if you brew light roasts. Probably not worth the upgrade if you only drink dark espresso, especially with milk and/or sugar. It will most definitely beat Niche Zero if you drink light to medium espresso and some occasional brews. I would really look into sculptor 078s if I were you.
First off, good for Niche! I almost was starting to feel sorry for them, so much every new grinder out there has been dubbed a potential "Niche killer" for the past two years. I still like my Zero a lot, especially for the textured espresso shots it helps me produce. Personally I would be most interested by a comparison with the new Timemore Sculptor 78s, which seems to be its closest competitor and quite a bit cheaper at that. And for someone like me who likes filter in the morning and espresso in the afternoon, how likely would I go to the trouble of swapping burrs, as easy as it is, for that extra bit of possible perfection in my cup(s)? Bravo for your quality and to the point videos, as always!
At $997 USD (today's conversion) it seems like Sculptor 078S, especially at the $529 USD Kickstarter price, is the compelling choice. I mean, for just a few extra dollars you could get a Sculptor 078 with the turbo burr set AND a Sculptor 078S and run both filter and espresso programs without having to swap burrs or compromise. Dang.
Don’t forget the duty you’ll incur being over $800. Very likely to be over $1100 after delivery. By not removing VAT it will give pause to many US customers. However, I’m not sure they did it for the zero either but the price was low enough to justify over competitors.
@@yoyoma9846 good to know. However the niche zero would have been under $800 DV which would have avoided duty in most cases. In the US, DHL was good about collecting, unfortunately. The new duo retail price and regained strength of the gbp will likely put it over that safe $800 number. I sure hope everyone makes out well and gets to enjoy the grinder. That said, I’m excited for the review and to actually hear it compared to the original. The NZ lower pitch while grinding is really enjoyable compared to most flat grinders and appealing in a house with little kids 😂
I have a Zero, which I love. I am definitely interested in the Duo, but I’m not sure I like the idea of switching burrsets; I want this to replace both the Zero and my Ode/SSP: swapping burrs makes the workflow *worse* for me. Fortunately FOMO doesn’t affect me much, I just want less stuff on my coffee bar at some point.
@@aaroncook5928 Nothing can replace Zero and Ode SSP at the same time. We are talking from a thick body muddle tasting to one of the clearest. And Edipis would be correct about switching burrs, complete impractical if you want it to pull double roll(as the name implies). More like Niche sold you two pairs of cheapo Mazzer burr sets in carrier frames that you most likely will ignore one of them down the road, instead of maybe providing you with something good in the middle(or even two versions) like the 078S. It would be a nightmare if I wanted a black in the morning and an espresso in the afternoon, OR if my friend wanted a latte and then I want a black.
Sell the Zero and get 078S, or sell your Ode SSP and get 078. I prefer the first option if I were you. 078S looks like it will completely outperform Zero in almost every way, while there aren't many replacement options for Ode SSP. One grinder won't work especially if you already have a pair that's completely opposite of the spectrum. Even P64 with Cast burrs won't give you the clarity of MP and body of Niche Zero at the same time, that is a very well-balanced setup for already a much higher price.
Even if the burr swap itself only takes 2mins of hand motions. In addition you will still need to have the tools and the other burr set at the coffee table, clean the fines in the grinder, some will stick on your hands and some will fall on your grinder and on the table. I got a P64, and as good as it is, it still takes minutes to open and clean. It will cost a few more minutes to swap burrs and maybe another few minutes to re-zero the dial. I'm glad cleaning is only required maybe once in a few months, staying away from nasty beans and purging with a few fresh beans will keep it almost maintenance-free.
Or just use the espresso burrs for filter… just depends on taste preferences. I believe the filter burrs will not grind fine enough for espresso - but like all espresso burrs you can do filter….
With the pricing being what it is, I think a lot of people will find themselves asking "Duo or p64?" I'd love to hear your thoughts on this as lagom owner in a followup!
I got P64 w/ MP burrs, and my friend has a Niche Zero. They are both excellent in terms of workflow. Assuming Duo is everything as good as Zero, plus flat burrs. Here's what I think practically what it boils down to: Are you gonna be perfectly happy with one of the burr sets that comes with the Duo? Or will you be happier with the P64 and can justify the additional cost? Here are my brief thoughts: While they both are easy to switch the burrs, you aren't gonna switch back and forth very often, if at all. I see the Duo has the burrs already in the carrier; that leads me to think if you ever upgrade 83mm burrs for it(fewer choices and $$$!), it will likely require a complete alignment process(b/c of that I also believe Duo has looser tolerances than P64). Also the Mazzer burrs are $70-$90 a pair(THE default 83mm cheapo burrs). While P64 comes with an SSP of your choice (~$200 value, top of the 64mm and no need to upgrade) and will take any 64mm burrs and guarantees alignment. Lastly, a bigger burr size requires a more powerful motor and stricter tolerances, maybe even better key components. I personally would prefer to stick with a more well-built and proven 64mm grinder.
@@veganpotterthevegan I understand the tolerance increases as the parts sizes increase for the same tolerance grade. Not sure how much easier for only ~30% dimensional increase, can't imagine more than a few microns if any. But if we are talking about angular deviation, the same degree of error will result in a bigger partial size deviation on bigger burrs. A good thing about Lagom P64 and P100 is they are both QC-ed for＜10μm dimensional and ＜5μm flatness on critical parts. I have a friend who decided to go with the DF64 and told me I wasted my money buying P64. Then deeply regrets the purchase after researching, buying parts, modding, wasted a few bags of coffee and spending time on that thing. He sold it in just a few months while I have just enjoying my P64 every day. You get what you paid for, for the most part.😉
@John its really a pretty sizeable difference. As for claimed QC, that doesn't mean it's actually met across the board. And with getting what you pay for, my ex-GF got a really terrible grinder from Weber that was replaced after lots of complaints with a grinder that was also not very good🙃
First thought. Glad I bought the original. I love a complex pour-over that is not too fruit-forward. I get a nearly perfect up with my Niche(with incredible room for adjustment ). I wonder if Niche is now offering a super-clarity" burr and a pure espresso burr. I worry that I might lose that sweet spot with these 2 new burrs. FYI, after the first 1000 pour-overs, my Niche still is like new. Looking forward to the review and how each burr compares to the original. Best wishes.
Me too! I am a Niche Zero owner as well and would mostly be interested in a comparison between Zero and Duo. In the recent years there were so many complaints about the Niche Zero being bad for pour overs and lacking clarity for Espresso. To be honest I sometimes think a lot here might just be repeating what others said. Namely on the other hand Niche Zero kept on winning blind comparisons. I absolutely like the Niche Zero for its smooth Espressos (I drink mainly light and medium roasts and I had flat burrs before) and I also like the pour overs which stopped having muddy beds after some months of grinding. But of course I would be extremely interested how much more there could be from the Duo. While I am not sure swapping the burrs can still keep the easy workflow from the Zero it indeed is a "no compromise approach" which I like a lot.
I really want one. Definitely a little annoyed though that they force the extra burr set on you. Having the option to choose between them based on preference or to buy them in a set would be nice, but I don’t think that’s an option. I never like having hardware forced on me and would rather save the $100 or so and just get the espresso set. I feel like this product is intended for first time purchasers and might irk the masses out there looking to get it as an upgrade. The ease of burr swap is impressive, but I just don’t feel like too many home brewers would do it that often, as they’d probably prefer using a separate grinder they already have for brew or espresso (or would prefer an all-in-one like the DF, which can really do both quite well). Also, with many makers knowing the popularity of SSP, and even making their factory burrs the same size for compatibility-or just providing SSP options in the box-it just seems odd. If I were to get a Duo and if it’s compatible with SSP, I’d have been made to purchase two extra sets I would never really use. Am I alone here in my reasoning?
Compare it to some of Timemore's new grinders if possible. Make the video as long as you want because I find it really relaxing to watch your videos ha.
I've seen several people stress test the Duo's motor by grinding green beans with apparently no issue. Not that I'm suggesting it to anyone, but that's honestly surprising in a weirdly good way, given that it seemed to have no problem chewing right through them without stalling or sputtering. Everything is a bit bigger, from the noise to the footprint to the price, but nothing out of bounds, and so far I have high hopes. The price point is going to be prohibitive for a lot of people, I think, but who knows what options Niche will have once it really gets off the ground. The company seems pretty responsive to the community, given all the design tweaks and upgrades available. Looking forward to the in-depth video!
Ahh yes, the April fools grinder. The burr swap looks super easy. That’s very good news. I’m interested in how the retention and workflow are compared to the original. If it’s able to have similar workflow to the OG, but with 83mm flats that would definitely be something worth taking note of. Also interested in how the alignment is out of the box on both sets of burrs. Having something truly aligned out of the box at this price point would also be impressive.
Really enjoyed this style of the video! It felt like just a casual chat. Not exactly sure what I would want from the duo review since I’m confident you’ll cover mostly everything but I will ask what does the “pony boy” at the end of your videos mean?
So, this may be a bit of a weird comparison but at essentially $1,000 USD my decision would come down to a Niche Duo, or getting a Timemore Sculptor 064 AND a Sculptor 078s. Swapping burrs is a neat party trick, but it doesn't seem like something I'm going to do when I want to start my day with a latte then have a nice afternoon V60. I may as well have a dedicated grinder for each that I'm not having to fuss with dialing in the grind from drink to drink or that I can go full overboard mode when I have guests and make multiple drinks at a time.
This is really interesting. I have a Zero right now (in Oz), and placed an order for a 64 and 78s (the 78 is not available via KS here). Would love to know how well the 64 does for filter vs a 78s (particularly for recipes like single pour which can use a much finer grind at 400microns or so). Equally curious as to whether the 78s outperforms the Zero completely for espresso.
@@tzetv I figure the 64mm is a good choice for non-espresso since there is no shortage of end game 64mm grinders and a wide assortment of aftermarket burrs if you were inclined to want to experiment.
Really interested in the alignment out of the box and how shims work with swapping burrs. Also curious about retention. Of course would love a comparison with other flat burr grinders in your arsenal.
The alignment is one I’m very curious about. Once all the questions come in over the next couple days I’ll begin to try and answer as many as possible in my full review.
Awesome video. Im sure you plan to do this. But for your review video of the Niche Duo. Please include segments of the video of comparison. For example "coffee A" is used in calibrated Niche Zero and Calibrated Niche Duo at both grind settings of 10 with a Kruve sifter analysis, taste profile analysis, etc etc. If same grind cant be obtained with setting of 10, maybe demonstrate how Niche Zero @ 13 gave me results of Niche Duo at setting 10, but was less consistent, etc etc etc. Looking forward to this video and a comparison. So far my niche does both espresso and filter good for me, but it would be great to see just how much better or consistent the duo may be.
I'm looking forward to your thoughts on this. @Spro do you feel that the 64mm flats of your P64 leave anything to be desired from espresso I'm trying to gauge how much different something like upgrading to 83mm in duo or DF83 vs 98mm in a P100. You clearly could have gotten any of those grinders to pair with your GS3 but you didn't. Why is that? Workflows aside are they really not worth upgrading to?
Looking forward to future videos on the Duo - and I expect more than one. You can compare the espresso burrs to the Zero. The two burrs for espresso. The two for pour over. The Duo to other grinders… So… just yesterday, I received the Kaffelogic Nano 7 roaster. I’d send it to you to review, but I can’t give it up! I’ve just done three batches, but it kind of reminds me of the Niche, in that the workflow is so frictionless for small batches in a home setting. I highly recommend that you get one to review. Mine was in the 560s and just arrived. There is a boost kit that allows larger batches, and those are just starting to ship. Having roasted with popcorn poppers, in cast iron, in various cheap air roasters, and on a Behmore (for many years), this is truly a game changer for the home roaster. Its tall format is great under a kitchen hood. Its set and forget workflow and repeatability are fantastic. I can’t recommend it highly enough.
As someone who worked in the business of selling and repairing commercial espresso machines and grinders, seeing that strap on the styrofoam is brilliant. Selling feature.
I’m glad this one has 3 springs holding the upper burr set like my former (much missed) Fiorenzato commercial grinder. When I initially saw the 2 spring system on my Niche Zero, and being a photographer and a tripod kind of guy, I wondered about instability and alignment issues. But this is much more confidence-inspiring.
Two springs are absolutely fine in the Zero, because conical burrs aren't so fussy about alignment as flat ones are. Conical burrs have an innate tendency to align themselves during use (provided, of course, that they aren't unreasonably misaligned to begin with, which in the Zero doesn't seem to be the case).
Thank you for the quick open box I ordered a few days ago and can’t wait for you review video. Nice videography with transition to ads of Standard Magazine. Keep up with your video and reviews.
How does the static build up compare to the zero? Plus just for the inquisitive side of me, what happens if you use one part of a burr set with the opposite part of the other set?
This just got added to my "Encore upgrade" list, even though it blows my budget. My questions: - first, taste notes for both filter and espresso, using both burr sets for both drinks. How do they compare to other high clarity burr sets? - can other burrs (SSPs?) be used? How hard is it to change burrs in the carrier? - how does the motor stack up? RPMs? Stalling?
Things I wonder. Are both burrs really aligned and do they maintain alignment? Can you install other 83mm burrs into the carrier, and if so are they similarly aligned? And then taste comparison with the Zero for espresso and different roasts/beans. And when someone may prefer the Zero vs Duo (regardless of price). What type of coffee will the Duo replace the Zero vs complement. And then compare to other grinder... DF83 specifically, but other flat burr grinders.
While in the testing phase, the thing that I'd be most interested in is seeing is what you think about the practicality of burr swapping. Niche is obviously positioning this as a do-it-all grinder, so I'd like someone (you?) to live with it as your only grinder for a couple of weeks, at least. My inkling is that swapping burrs will lose the novelty appeal pretty quickly, even if it's a
The obvious question is: can you force the filter burrs to make espresso? I feel that this grinder is actually suited to a very specific user - someone who makes espresso (or filter, I guess) every day, and then only wants to switch occasionally to another brew style. I feel like the fussiness of switching burr sets would get old pretty quickly.
Looking forward to this, I really wanna know how the alignment is and if it made more sense with more thought into the burrs. I know the burrs 151B and 151F and although fine not my favourite burrs, still look forward to your impressions of these on lower RPM. Yeah the dual design is a bit odd instead of single so really look forward to what you think about that…
Some questions that come to mind are how bad is the static, is RDT recommended, does this grinder not need the anti-popcorning slow feed disk, does it stall on very light roast beans, is this still "Zero" retention, will the burr carriers seat other similar sized burrs, what RPM does the motor run at?
The shot of the grounds for filter coffee didn't show much in the way of fines. Is that correct? Were there actually that small amount of fines produced when grinding for filter or did you sift the coffee before placing in the filter cone?
curious that there's two burr sets to switch between, but no RPM control - would love to hear how much you use the RPM control on the P64 and whether that's a missed opportunity for Niche here.
I would want to know how the new kids on the block perform, the Timemore Sculptor O78s and the niche DUO. And of course, do you really want two sets of burrs when you could just buy the Niche Zero and be done with it. If I had to guess I would say that the DUO probably punches above it's price class, so what grinder does it replace?
I just bought the zero a week ago after spending weeks researching if they were in the works to make a flat burr. Everyone said they werent making one any time soon. Just muck f*cking luck
Great video. I’d specifically be interested in whether the hopper capacity is any larger and in general the workflow for a large batch of coffee on this vs the Ode v2 or a Timemore. The ability to do pour over and percolation brews seems like the biggest plus for this over the zero
The price of £799 (which should be more like £660 for customers outside the United Kingdom) means this grinder is now well over the $800 threshold of general import duty exemption for those in the U.S.
I read on reddit they don't drop the price for non-UK customers, they keep the £799 price exc vat, and for UK it's £799 inc VAT. Given the import duties UK customers have to pay on e.g. the Timemore 078s, its value proposition in the UK is going to be different than that of most of coffee youtube.
I love what Niche has done to move the industry into single dosing but saw people talk about Niche not deducting UK VAT when shipping overseas I'm not sure if that's still the case but something I wanted to point out - probably due to not wanting to set up and paper work
Can't wait to hear your impressions after some use. I'd like to know what the espresso body is like compared to the Zero. I don't own either grinder, but it sounds like that's the place where the Zero is undefeated, at least at its price point.
Only halfway in and I gotta say: nice, calm pace of storytelling and great videography! I think you could actually ease up on getting so many angles but I understand that you probably wanted to capture this grinder in all its glory :)
I wonder if this is a good idea. I would suspect buyers that want the full range (espresso to filter) would either go for a grinder that can do both well enough out of the box. Or go for dedicated grinders. Because no matter how simple a burr swap is, its still too much of a hassle if you brewed a filter in the morning and wanna go for an espresso in the afternoon (and back to filter next day). Isn't it? (I honestly don't know, I only brew espresso and never change to filter anyways). And whoever is looking for a new grinder and only needs either or and would like the Niche because it is good (if it is good) would bay for a second burr set they'll never use. So I think this should've been an option rather than a default?
I was thinking of using the Niche Zero and almost bought it, then I saw they added the Duo. My context is, I want to use it for sales of coffee. I'd take my different coffee beans to a cafe/coffee shop etc, and use the grinder to make them my coffees to taste. Is the Niche Zero good enough or should I spend extra and get the Duo?
Wow! $1000 price for the US, plus ~4.2% ad velorum duty rate plus $90 in freight plus customs entry fee you are talking about $1200 for a coffee grinder that you have to change the burrs to go from espresso to filter and back. Buy two excellent manual grinders and still have money to buy some coffee beans.
I’m not gonna lie, when I first saw this announced I thought it somehow contained two separate grinders, one for espresso and one for filter. I was very curious to see how that was gonna work, but this makes much more sense.
It's nice to see Niche come out with 2 burr sets to enable the best for filter and espresso. My niche has pens marks on it for the filter settings as it's all the way round from the espresso grind, so just being able to have dedicated sets would clean everything up. I feel I'm missing just a bit of finesse for using a single burr set all across the range of grinding. Glad they have kept as many of the design features as possible, because if it ain't broke, why fix it. It's called the Duo because it comes with........ 2 sets of burrs. Thought that was obvious tbh.
Long time watcher, first time writer. I'm considering replacing my Comandante C40 with an electric grinder, primarily for espresso, and have watched many DF83 reviews with interest. How does the Niche Duo compare, and perhaps more generally what is the *best* grinder for espresso in this sort of price bracket.
Coming from a Comandante, too - wanted to upgrade to a Niche even though it was another conical grinder, and the day after I started looking they release this. Don’t know much about custom burrs, but if people normally do SSP conversions then it would be interesting to see the comparison between stock and aftermarket.
I mainly want to know about clarity. I bought a NZ and while I love basically everything else about it (aesthetics, sound, workflow, build, texture), I primarily drink light roasts and feel like I don't get any clarity from the NZ (I drink both espresso and filter - primarily espresso). If I am prioritizing taste profiles of light roasts, is there enough of a clarity gain over the NZ to merit replacing it?
The real Q Id hope to see answered is: is the Duo a Zero Upgrade or is it an alternate experience. Should we be choosing between the 2 or hoping to have the different profiles of borh?
Wondering if the motor itself runs on lower or higher revs/min comparing with the Niche zero? Now,that the new burrs are flat,that would be interesting to know.. Secondly, I don't see much of a difference regarding the material used for the bean funnel, cause mine got a bit rusty after 18 months of using and yes, did some water spraying to reduce the static..
I enjoy a cup of coffee and an espresso in the morning, having to swap out burrs everyday would become annoying and start to take away the joy. I’ll stick with my 2 grinder setup.
This puts me in a blind. For the longest time I adored the Niche Zero, but been wanting a flat burr grinder for espresso, I really wanted Lagon P64, but I’ve been on the waitlist forever. Right now I have the Timemore Sculptor 78s and 64 backed. I do like the idea of variable RPM. I do wish they did 82 mm instead since more burrs exist in that size. And now this was dropped, it is 82 mm, but no variable RPM. I am considering backing out of the Timemore and get this instead. I didn’t see it listed on the website, but what is the wattage on the motor on this?
About the naming, its very straightforward: Niche Zero was about 'zero' retention, the Niche Duo is about the 'duo' of burr sets. They were never meant to be zero one two, cause zero wasn't about it being the first of their grinders.
I can say now that they aren’t too similar, the dynamics of conicals and flats are pretty different and result in grinds that are more shaved than crushed, which extract a little differently. The biggest difference I’ve noticed off the bat, and was to be expected, is the Duo gives more clarity, and the Zero more mouthfeel. More thoughts on this coming soon for sure.
Please in the next Niche Duo video, test the following: Grind per seconds, Decibels (between Niche's), motor torque. Will be perfect compare with DF83 SSP and Single Dose Oro (grinders in the same price range).
I’m concerned about the plastic auger and what the burrs screw into. Are the threads over moulded ? PDM injection is cost effective but will wear. Cast auger and burr mounted is more precise. The cost is way way off.
With the espresso burrs, how are the sweetness, clarity, and body of the espresso? How much worse is the filter or French press coffee from those espresso burrs? Would I really want to swap the burrs each time? If/when I buy a High Uniformity burr set, or a Ditting Sweets burr set, could I attach them to that self-aligning piece? Could I buy a spare self-aligning piece? (I mean that blue plastic doo-hickey in the middle of the burr set, which seems to remain attached when you insert or swap it out.)
i wouldn't want to swap the burrs all the time depending on what i want to grind. i'd rather just get an all in one grinder like the sculptor 064s. really don't understand why this is needed.
Nice video thanks! I’m still waiting to buy the right grinder for filter and espresso. This might might be a good candidate. You do have a lovely coffee cup at 2:15. Can you share the brand ? Thanks 🙏
This is a cool grinder but I'm not sure who this is designed for. Many people have a preference between filter and espresso and those that love them both and are constantly switching, would probably prefer to just invest in a second grinder rather than switching the burrs every time. It strikes me that the duo could be sold at a lower price point with a choice of one set of burrs from the two, and this would make far more sense. For those that truly will use both, they could just buy the second as an add-on.
I would like to know about how both burrs perform with distribution size of the grind. Also, does the flat burr Niche truly give you more clarity than the NZ. I am an NZ owner and am considering the NDuo as the flat burr for my coffee bar.😁☕☕
Hey! Do you think this is a “upgrade” from the zero? Especially when someone wants to use for both espresso and filter. I do enjoy the espresso from the zero, and would be curious how much the sacrifice is for the flat burrs. Or would it make more sense to just get a second grinder for filter, such as the ode with ssp burrs and keep the zero for espresso.. thanks!
Why is the Niche Grinder with zero retention claim, still requires user to clean the grinder every few months? What's the thing to clean if there's nothing much suppose to be in it?
