Today, a bit of free-style discussion on Ceramic Bearings in pocketknife pivots. In short, they're nice to have, and I'll never object, but they're not crucial for a quality action.
From my experience ceramic bearings have 3 advantages over the steel ones: 1. They will never rust under any circumstances. 2. They are less likely to deform. 3. Because they are made from a material harder than steel - with time they will create grooves in the steel washers and the blade and will run inside those grooves, which will make the knife (maybe not significantly) smoother. So, they do have advantages in the long run, but maybe not such that will be noticeable or such that will justify swapping all of your steel bearings to ceramic ones. IMO it is better to let the knife operate with whatever bearings it comes with, unless there is a problem. Great topic, cheers!
while they are less likely to deform, they can deform the steel or ti races if over tightened too much, or if the knife see's side to side torsional forces. and if its too much force they will crack and break.
Do you honestly think wearing grooves in your knife would be a good thing? What about that difference in tolerance? You think your knife will just compensate for that and not develop play?
Aaron Oosterhoff in theory it could develop play, but the grooves are so small that actually developing a significant level of blade play would take decades of constant use. The only possible exception to that would be a detent ball path that's been heavily acid etched. And as Nick has said, you shouldn't etch the detent ball path anyway, as it makes the action gritty. It's actually incredibly easy to just mask it off. So, yea I guess it's possible, but in the amount of time that would take, steel bearings would've rusted away anyway. And if they hadn't, there would be other significant problems regardless. And hell, steel bearings wear in a groove too, so it happens regardless.
Yeah my stance is that ball bearings are unnecessary for a folding knife and just add and extra variable to worry about. Just an extra complication and now you have to worry about how they designed it and cleaning them and some knives will have them some won't and if a knife comes with them you'tre kind of SOL. I've literally never had a knife and been like wow these washers are garbage! The problem lies in the lock, with a back lock or axis lock or ball lock, its all about how they shape the back of the blade and whether or not they polish it
The grooves are insignificant and you can compensate those by tightening the pivot screw, they are a part of the breaking in process. My Rike came with steel washers that have a bearing track from the factory BTW.
I think that stupid little detent ball can often have more of an affect on the knife's performance in terms of smoothness than any sort of bearings or bushings.
A good low friction nano partical lube should be often applied to the detent ball. (Realize this is a 5 year post) but makes a huge difference, and less friction for the track, meaning less wear.
Great video idea! My Observations, (all anecdotal) are as follows: 1. ZT makes the smoothest ss bearings I have ever experienced, and would not anticipate an improvement in going to ceramic. My guesstimate, is that you need to try the swap on a lesser quality company using ss. All though the argument that point is that it's a predicated upon quality not material. Hmm... 2. I think that ceramic "break in" the bearing track at a much faster rate than ss because of the increased hardness, and in a short term comparison, would yield a smoother knife. Long term, or swapping to ceramic post "break in," does not yield any noticeable improvement. Cheers,
Nick Shabazz I think most makers believe ceramic is not idea and refuse to use them. Or they did what you did and tested them and found out no change in action.
I am an automotive technician and most, actually all production vehicles on the road have steel bearings, except for the jaguar xe sv project 8 which has ceramic. that is because the steel bearings are more durable in most situations and offer an acceptable smoothness for say a corolla. However in racing like F1 ceramic bearings are used almost exclusively because that little bit less drag achieved by ceramic means the world when your are driving along at 200 mph. in conclusion yes ceramic does make a difference but unless you are flipping your knife open at 200 mph, i doubt you will notice
ceramic bearings in the auto industry will absolutly crack. they are not made for jarring forces seen in that industry. heck even skateboards or bicycles, as they are expensive and just not reliable. i dont even think F1 uses ceramic for most of the bearings in the cars. i think maybe in the turbos, i dont recall.
As mentioned by a commenter or two, due to the force/surface area ratio on detent balls it is highly beneficial. And the fact that they don't rust or put in humid/wet environments is a huge plus. It's not a matter of immediate performance enhancement as it is longevity and consistency of it's inherent functions.
yes, this is exactly true. in fact a flat detent of either material will be smoother even so. i have not tested ceramic vs steel flat detents tho. i would prefer the ceramic as they wear in faster.
Hi Nick. Really enjoyed the video. One thing I would really like to see you do is to do a before and after on the ceramic bearing “upgrade” but with the implementation of a torque standard. IE use a torque driver on at least the pivot hardware to insure the same load. Then use some sort of weight scale to pull the blade on stainless and ceramic to see if there’s any appreciable difference in effort to move the blade. Just my $0.02 but i think it’d be an interesting experiment
IMHO ceramic makes a difference More so in the detent. Having a well executed ceramic detent will help smoothness as it presses against the lock bar. Don't get me wrong I love ceramic bearings in the pivot, for smoothness, but I think they also serve the role of corrosion resistance as compared to steal bearings. Love your vids Nick,
Another benefit may be rust resistance, steel bearings can rust, and are pretty hard to clean. No issue with ceramic. That why many skate shops at least in New York City recommend them
I am a skateboarder and I have used both ceramic and steel bearing in my skateboard. For me the ceramic bearing can't take huge impacts like steel they crack. But that's just my 2 cents.
in knives, especially pocket knives we dont see huge impacts. but if someone were to impact a knife as such with ceramic bearings, they would indeed crack.
Paul Seitz In the bmx world, ceramic bearings are overpriced and honestly useless. If I'm not wrong, at high speeds the ceramic does not warp like steel due to friction heat.
that is correct, because in bmx the bearings are seeing heavy forces which dramatically wear in the steel around them, making them go out of round. not only that but the ceramic will crack from these forces eventually.
If a bearing is made perfectly, it shouldn't be able to have a shock, it should be contacting the sides of the housing so that it can't collide at any time (becasue if its already touching it can't hit) and get smashed in an impact or sudden stop, its like trying to crush an egg vs, dropping it. Ceramic is strong as hell but brittle. I would say whoever made your ceramic bearings didn't really know what they were doing unfortunately
Ceramic roller bearings are where its at. They feel superior to the round bearings for me. But I am oldschool and will happily take bronze washers on a good folder any day of the week.
I have recently installed grade 5 ceramic bearings in 3 ZT knives 2: 0562's and a 0452 the main reason for me was the rust factor and after seeing the pitting on a cheap USB microscope on new stock bearings from ZT. Honestly the ball bearings fell shut smoother with lube of course than the ceramics on my particular knives. However I can crank the pivots down tight and run them with no lube and they open great and their blades have zero play but this is just my experience and why I will continue to do it if possible. I personally think they should be stock just for the rust factor and anyways it seems to be on all the knives from China as of late even on their "dice roll" knives as Nick calls them.
Since ceramic bearings a much harder than steel, wouldn't they be more likely to damage a bearing race way, especially one that does not have some sort of steel surface for them to ride on? I'd rather replace a cheap set of steel bearings than a titanium frame.
If ceramic is less likely to deform, it serves as a preventative measure, not a performance enhancer. My concern is about whether or not the harder ceramic is more likely to wear a deeper groove into the metal race of the knife over time.
Hey nick how ya liking that wood Delica from knife center? Got mine a week or so ago and I'm loving it. Like the little extra beef too. Doesn't add to much but feels good.
@@Midgaardsormen mineral oil, or whatever else that's food safe on the market. Its best to remove the bearings and roll them on 1 drop of oil. 1 drop is enough to coat all the bearings. Anymore is excess and just collects dust, lint and dirt.
I'm not sure I've seen people say they're a remarkable change from stainless steel bearings. The advantage of them is that they resist deformation better than steel balls, however, there's a concern they could crack under a lot of lateral stress (not sure this has ever actually been seen). Stainless corrodes in certain conditions and isn't as hard. They have been seen to flatten in spots... particularly in detents.
Nice review nick. Really love that zt. What is the washer material itself made from ? Plastic? Any thoughts on valyerian steel made from dragon fire ? Is that stuff any good ? Always a pleasure to watch pal carry on
You only have 7 bearings in that race (be they steel or ceramic). If you take the inner diameter of the race, the outer diameter of the race & the size of the bearing (you can also measure the knife's pivot, which should be the same or a tenth or two less in mm than the race's ID) you can then go to Skiff's site & pick out new ceramic races with say 11 or 15 bearings in each race at dimensions: 5mm ID (really 5.08 mm for clearance), 8.5mm OD & bearing size of 1.2mm (which match the sizes of the Vosteed Raccoon Top-Liner-Lock knife I just swapped bearings on) & noticeably improve the action & blade stability (blade rock) over the stock 9-bearing cages. Skiff has a wide number of options, including double row bearings with 18 bearings per race if your knife has the OD dimensions to accept them. They are between $13.00 & $14.00 a pair & can be installed just by partially disassembling your knife, cleaning & lubing everything (including the bearing races) and merely re-assembling the knife with 30 bearings in my Raccoon (as opposed to the 14 you currently have in your ZT). Simply switching from steel to ceramic will have the benefits that @TechReviewKnives - below - mentions. But, increasing the number of bearings to 11 or 15 per cage will make a noticeable improvement in your action when you deploy or retract the blade & hold it more steadily with no blade rock. I do a Skiff switch on ALL of my bearing-based knives even if they come with 8 or 9 ceramic bearing races. It's like why I always start out with each M3 Bimmer I intend to race by giving the ECU (Engine Control Unit) software (on older ones, it's actually a chip) an upgrade to widen the power band & add torque & horsepower. Most people won't notice a difference, but any driving fanatic (very much like knife fanatics) who demands 10/10ths performance will instantly tell its a better machine. BTW, that and low-profile (but NOT TOO LOW!) performance tires designed to give you larger tire patch & better traction are the first 2 things to improve ANY performance car.
Running ceramic bearings against steel is similar to running hardened steel bearings against titanium, they may scratch and gouge the surfaces. They are also less impact resistant and more expensive.
In the Radio Control hobby we prefer ceramic bearings because 1, they won't rust. Water is often a factor when running RCs and 2, performance. When a motor's rotor can be spinning anywhere from 30-50 000 RPM ceramic motor bearings can make a big difference. Fortunately RC doesn't have to deal with quite the forces that skateboarding and BMX do so we don't have nearly the durability problems. In a knife though, I really don't see that big of a benefit to worry about it. The speeds the blade moves at just aren't that high and the distance it travels is miniscule. And proper maintenance should keep any rust at bay.
I swapped my zt0095bw steel bearings for a ceramic bearing set but the way the balls are there is more balls that are staggered and I feel a huge difference but I can be because there is more balls that are smaller and staggered. All I can say it is a huge difference
A ceramic detent is the biggest difference. It doesn't wear flat like steel does, and is smoother. Ceramic bearings do provide slightly smoother operation, but it's little difference. I'd love to see more makers use a ceramic detent though. The cost would be virtually identical (you're looking at pennies difference), and the real world gains are huge.
My 0562CF was MARGINALLY at best smoother with ceramic bearings swapped into it. I feel like having a ceramic detent ball would be more important, so its a little bit quieter and maybe a bit smoother when popping up and down the tang. It would be nice if all bearings came ceramic (thinking some Kizer models) but like you are saying yourself, its not really a "must have" - more of a " nice to know they are there ".
For anything you compare, no matter how close, one is better than another. To what degree is the question. For the purposes here, it ain't gonna matter all that much. I think Nick just proved that.
Ceramic beats steel Rollers beat balls Balls beat washers A fully caged ceramic roller(like a skateboard) with my new idea for a lock is placebo affect. Love your channel. Love your speils. I bought the kershaw oblivion and then the elementum c/f dama. I'm waiting on my c/f dama chronic. Next up I'm thinking twosun.. the sebenza reminds me of a Lightsaber. Once I get this class A lisence I'm going bananas. Going are the days of buying because your nation but I still love seeing it in these knife shows. You and Anderson at knife center are top tier. Neeves and blade hq are close 2.
I have a Schenk Knives WindRiver and they have ceramic ball bearings with steel cages, and they’re assembled with .5wt nano oil. I run them dry and good lord it’s so smooth
from an engineer's perspective: the nice thing about ceramics is that they can be run without oil in low stress applications. for a knife that means less goop for dirt to stick to. it's all the good things about bearings with all the good things about oilite bronze washers. it's also all the bad things about oilite bronze in high stress applications, but for our purposes those bad things are irrelevant.
Ok, My 2 cents. Some things to consider. Coming from the high end R/C world I learned a few things about caged bearings. One, ceramic bearings can last longer and don't seem to wear like steel, but can cause more wear to the surface they are riding on. If there was some kind of slipping happen, then ceramic was less likely to develop flat spots. Also less likely to develop flat spots due to light rusting if wet. Now on the other hand, steel in some ways could be stronger because like some have said, ceramic bearings can crack or break. I don't know that ceramic bearings are the best choice for most knifes.
I'd say the biggest difference in changing the bearings is lost on almost everyone doing this swap... It's not the change from steel to ceramic that makes the big difference (though steel can rust so that's an issue) but the big deal is the race. Those nylon races are going to wear down over time far worse than the brass races you find in other knives and new ZTs. So if you are going to change bearings, please make sure you get new races as well.
I bought a cheap smith & wesson Freelancer button lock knife . I want to make it a fidget knife but the washers make it hard to open ..I WOULD like your recommendation for bearings that would fit and where can I buy them ??
I don't particularly have much experience on the matter but I have a slight reluctance to use ceramic because I think that the extra hardness could dent the bearing track if under hard use. But its probably just my prejudice against things I haven't yet tried
The difference may be inconsequential, or rather we are not equipped perception-wise to discern the difference. A more significant issue, IMO, is whether or not you lube ceramic vs steel bearings... Great vid Nick! Thanks, -Sid
well, most people put to much lube on. even a drop is going to be too much lube. put lube on and wipe it off and you will notice that its still there and the action will be much greater (at least on the detent). this has been proven in scientific tests.
My Opinion on washers and bearings. Teflon washers are fine, Bronze copper washers fine, Steel bearings fine, Ceramic Bearnings fine. To some extent I don't even really care about the action either. Can I open the knife without much difficultly? Can I close the Knife without much difficultly? Then again I prefer a good thumb stud over a flipper or a wave knife, boring but reliable.
I’d have to do the math, but if I were to advise against them I’d say you shouldn’t use them if they are harder than the baring races. I don’t know if it would matter that much but if you were to flip your knife millions of times it could “prematurely” wear grooves into the blade/washers. If you’re really interested in learning more about bearings you can study it for mounts. A good place to start is Hertzian Contact Stress and Fatigue Life.
Mike Lentsch I'm currently running grade 5 that seems to be the typical but I've seen grade 3 and grade 10 reasonably priced if you purchase them in larger quantities.
Maybe ceramic bearings would be more subject to micro chipping if you get quarts particles up in thur. I bet ceramic is harder than sand particles, but maybe there is something that could chip it. i dunno
Alphaknifesupply is a great place to get ceramic (and stainless) ball bearings. Just make sure you measure what size ball you have for a proper fit. I've done this with IKBS and MRBS equipped knives with great results
MRBS are used to spread the weight and give more contact for larger knives that use bearings. roller bearings are also a good solution for that too. more area of contact. mrbs wont make it better per say.
Tactical Center yes MRBS knives are very smooth as is. I just went ahead and replaced with ceramic anyways, as a previous owner had lost a few bearings
Ceramic bearings won't rust which is a major advantage if you live in a very humid climate like Florida or if you regularly use the knife in wet/bloody conditions like hunting.
hey Nick the ceramic bearing don't build up heat there for less friction and in a spinner that going around and around for 5 minutes it makes a difference probably not just for the deployment of a knife oh but ceramic bearings can break a little easier than steel although in a knife I doubt you need to worry about it. ceramic bearing got there claim to fame with in line roler skates love the vids brother keep them comming
ceramic bearings in spinners are largely misunderstood. they are rounder and they will wear in the metal races faster and they are quieter. they wont see any major heat at all. what makes a spinner last for 5+mins is the design and weight of the spinner. if you make a spinner with 3 ends vs 2 it will spin smoother. if you add tungsten carbide to the ends to make them heavier it will spin longer.
Didn't notice the steel washer on the cf scale during the disassembly and assembly. Is it not necessary to have the washer for the conversion, or was it stuck to the scale?
+Tovarish Works I must admit that when I first put ceramic bearing in my 0562cf I did not notice much if any difference at first ....a few weeks later it seemed to have "broken in " and truly is a noticeable "smoother" knife
IMO it would have been better to test the ceramic bearings on a knife that doesn't have the best action, so you can feel if there is some improvement. Maybe there's a "smoothness limit", I own a ZT452 and I sincerely can't think of it been smoother, I think there's a limit. Also, rust resistant would be my only concern for getting ceramic, nothing else. Thanks for the video!
So this may be a very dumb question, but talking about bearings when a knife is running on "IKBS" what exactly does that mean? Does that mean they are captured ball bearing loose ball bearing because I've seen knives with both and I just don't understand!
Depending on the knife, it *will* change the sound that the bearings make. Ceramic is more muted while steel can have a louder effect. I've found this is mostly true on full Ti framelocks. It depends on the knife though, it won't always make a difference. Gavko customs are a good example where it does though. But yeah, in terms of smoothness, there's no discernible difference - at least to human senses.
smoothness is mostly dictated from the detent and lockbar. not the bearings around the pivot. tho if those pivot bearings are out of round and different sizes, that could potentially be an issue. also the ceramic bearings wear in faster, as they are harder and dig into the races sooner than the steel counterpart. you could wear a knife in with ceramic and then stick the steel bearings back in and see no differences after that. but yea, the point is that these ceramic pivot bearings are not going to be smoother action wise because thats all detent/lockbar.
Nick, you know a lot about knifes that I don't so I'm hoping you can help me with my trouble. I can not decide weather to get the spyderco para 3 or the sage 5. Any preferences or opinions on which one to get?
They can be more round, they cannot rust. Fantastic things. Of course if your bearing surfaces arent well done then they make little difference to overall smoothness,. And the detent will have a larger difference in many cases. need more HRD knives..
We talked about something like this in physics for engineering and all of it came down to crazy formulas based on numbers out there for known hardness levels. That said I can't FEEL a difference but mathematically there is a difference does that translate to real world not always
I was considering them. Drawback for me is theyre not magnetic. I use a magnetic steel bowl to contain parts during disassembly and find them when i inevitably drop a screw on the carpet. Legally blind so this is more of an issue for me.
Why the 242 Blue Loctite on your pivot screw? Have you tried the 222 Purple Loctite? I've switched my routine around, going to the Purple for my pivot screw.
Blue is better than purple. purple can back out still in my experience. iirc it may also be more expensive than blue at some vendors. some pivots are still better to run purple in, like say a strider.
I guess the ceramic bbs eat away at the titanium scale even faster than the steel bbs. Id like to upgrade to a steel washer behind the bb cage on the titanium side. Or bronze washers in place of the bearings.
The benefits are related to longevity they don’t need to be oiled plus that’s a caged bearing system ikbs you would notice a huge difference in a caged bearing system the balls are rotating in a disc not up against each other where you would notice a huge difference I could be wrong in fact maybe I am but to replace tool bearings With ceramic in a cage during system doesn’t really tell you much if you’re looking for some sort of upgrade difference that’s just my opinion again I could be wrong
The main reason I would think to use ceramic over stainless steel is that they don't rust, that's an issue I'm running into since I abuse my EDC knives,lol
