@@nowonmetube Yeah, even in Baba is You the coating philosophy is greatly used, even up to the way the commands are introduced. What should you play with in the lake area? With Sink, and in the space area? With Empty.
I kinda want to bring up Okami. It's one of my most favourite games and it is done beautifully. It also has a small side objective in which you can feed animals. You approach the animals, find the bag of food they like and then you feed them and get your reward. You don't have to interact with these animals ever again. But you can! You can headbutt them, you can pick them up (or try too when they are too big), you can bark at them, you can use your brush techniques at them. And each and every one of the animals, and there are a LOT in this game, are programmed to react to this. When you headbutt a cat, it will fly away and then hiss at you. If you try to pick up a horse, it shakes you off and runs away. If you do the same to a tiger, it gets mad and hits you. If you let flowers bloom, vegetarian animals will come to eat them, carnivorous will come and play with them. If you let flowers bloom in front of monkeys they will cheer at you. This serves no gameplay purpose at all, but it is fun to do and gives the game an incredible charm. It's this charm that I want to see more in games. And Nintendo's most recent games don't have it anymore.
And running around, mimicing those gameplay abilities and stats? That would have been creative, and I wouldn't have minded doing it 5 times if that were the case.
@@wariolandgoldpiramid I can imagine Toad being a nightmare with him being faster. And Rosalina can like shoot projectile Star-bits at you. And Peach can hover. Noice.
It definitely goes to show that some of the most memorable shrine challenges in BOTW are the ones where you aren’t in the shrine at all. The little island garden where you’ll be murdered for crushing flowers, the giant monument to Gerudo warriors of the past, the pitch black forest, the deserted island where you start with nothing. I loved the puzzle-based shrines, but none are nearly as clear in my memory. They were fun, but not memorable, not in the way those other shrines were
I love minimalist interior design and have done for a long time. This reminded me a lot of how I thought about it when I started, to how I see it now. In the beginning I didn't want anything that wasn't functional because it was unnecessary. As I grew older I started to realize I lived in empty boxes and that "useless" things as plants and paintings were what brought the home to life. That made sense in my head at least:) Anyway great video!
I feel like that's also another potential point on this entire video. Had the theming in those stages not been as good as they were, would they still be that recognizeable?
@@mreevee7785 I feel like its more about how thoroughly you played and enjoyed the game, I've only played Galaxy twice, but recognized every level there, because I made sure to do everything I possibly could do in the game.
I feel like this has been going on for a while. Sunshine had those platforming areas without F.L.U.D.D that didn't feel like part of the world, they just felt like they were there specifically for that challenge.
"How cool would it be if we took away FLUDD and they had to platform without their built-in second chances?" "How do we make it so you can platform through the same area twice, once without FLUDD, and have it be meaningfully different?" "Lol just stick em in a void with level creator blocks and a patterned skybox" "do it lmao" I'd recommend checking out A Hat in Time for this. The Seal the Deal DLC added a bunch of new standalone challenges that work like having FLUDD taken away, or losing Cappy, or any number of "can you beat _____ without _____" challenges, but built-in to the game. Eg, get a certain time piece without jumping. So you have to learn how to ascend without jumping, what badges are good for that, and the best part is it takes you through already existing levels. You don't go to the no-jump realm with a special version of the challenge. That level you did, do it again, but don't jump this time. It's far more interesting to see the level in a whole new light and discover whole new routes and strategies than to take the pre-created route in the special challenge zone like the odyssey challenges. It's frustrating being given the 'no cappy' challenges in odyssey and they use it for like "kill fire bro" and "walljump 10 times", as opposed to, say, putting you through the moon cave gauntlet, or fighting a boss, or anything more interesting than a 15s challenge. Thankfully A Hat in Time doesn't pull punches, odds are good you won't even beat all the Snatcher challenges because some are really difficult, but super rewarding to finish. Timed train rush without jumping still gives me nightmares, but in a good way.
I don't like those stages, but the developers were forced to make them due to the tight deadlines, so I can see why they're in Sunshine. However, I dislike them in the newer games because Nintendo has tons of money and could easily create better environments, and deadlines could easily be shifted. The music in Odessey's platforming areas is also some of the worst Nintendo music I have ever heard. It's too bland compared to the rest of the game.
Sunshine’s bonus levels felt good to me because they had atmosphere, the backgrounds and weird music gave them an interesting feel you wouldn’t expect. Compare to Odyssey’s bonus rooms which I feel are what you described Sunshine’s as and nothing more
10:30 The fact that I could recognize three out of four of these just from the reductions is really telling about how iconic Mario Galaxy's levels were.
I don't know about Mario or another platformer, but I do know of a 1st party Nintendo game with 14 hours of story cutscenes and it's one of my favourite games of all time.
Or what if all the Mommy cats, were distinct from each other, maybe themed personalities like pirate, or punk, and the missing kittens playing off that theme? Now even with the same exact objective there is something that makes them stand out from each other.
I just looked up the kitten locations because out of all the missions in bowser's fury(which a lot of them are already blandly copypasted) finding all 9 of the exact same lost kittens has to be the most boring and tedious mission in the game.
I think luigi's mansion 3 was a really good balance of gameplay and character it was a pretty fun game but it also had characters and a story and like. When was the last time you saw a mario cutscene with personality?
10:37 I instantly recognized the Desert level and Cookie level from Super Mario Galaxy and now I want a whole quiz show where you show "bare minimum levels" and have people guess what actual video game levels they are
Very interesting case about contextualizing challenges. I have never really seen these challenge rooms in Nintendo games as artificial, but when comparing it to something like banjo and kazooie you make an interesting point. Also for me in particular, I really like the shrines in BotW because of the many different ways you can solve them (or skip them). I wonder if Nintendo would continue to make fun gameplay but add a little extra in the stpry / contextualizing department. It could make their games even better.
I think they should always use basic thing TIL the final release. Let the art and music work separately from the game prototypes so they can design good gameplay without distraction of the other thing and the other teams solely working their own and push the visual at it’s most beautiful. This also effectively stop leaks happening because texture asset and gameplay asset is separated.
@@deanmoriarty6015 yeah, the only way to aim correctly is to first start walking/running and then fireball. Aiming while standing still is otherwise 8 directional. Also there's a small boost to help players reach platforms in case they miss their jump (if you jump to a platform but e.g Mario's feet bump against the wall before reaching the platform, in other games you'd fall down but here mario is magically teleported onto the platform)
@@davinchristino standing in the right spot has nothing to do with aiming at the right direction. If an ennemy comes at me from 22° angle, i can't shoot it unless I walk towards it (which is not always feasible when standing in a small platform) Because mario (or any character) can only aim straight ahead (0°) of 45° to the left or right, no in-between
Great analysis. I started thinking about the illusion of new content by coating as it is done in WarioWare, specially the first game: like half of the games are press A at the right time, except a new scene is given in each one.
This video resonates even more strongly after playing Tears of the Kingdom. It's an absolutely incredible game brought down by the fact they don't try to reframe reused content, objectives, enemies , or even story elements AT ALL. The entire game is simultaneously brilliant, while also feeling very focus-tested.
Even the first time I played botw I thought...shit they should have made the shines all similar but slightly different based on where in the world they were... Ie say plants busting through the ground and walls in faring region. Lava rivers flowing through the ones near death mountain etcetera. And don't get me started on Odyssey...I actually HATE odyssey. With a passion. Not because it's so bad there's an awful, AWFUL lot that's good. But there's JUST enough bad to spoil all that's good. Like they did that shit on purpose with mathematical precision just to piss me off!
@@sammaloney1746 I didn't hate Odyssey, but I felt very empty upon completion. It wasn't satisfying, because I wasn't invested in the world they created. Also, the base game should've been more difficult.
@@innertuber4049 Yeah I totally agree. It's technically a good game but just so lifeless. The kingdoms are uninspired and moons are so valueless due to their amounts... Not to mention humanoid characters in new donk city man. They've singlehandedly crushed the Mario universe consistency with them. Should have been monkeys ala DK universe or at least made cartoony like Paulina and Rosalina. And realistic dinosaurs when yoshi is supposed to be a dinosaur like crash bandicoots dino that he rides in 3. Not to mention they hardly utilised them at all. The fuck are you doing Nintendo!??? As I said it's like they do these things just to infuriate me. Because any other way but the way they did would have been better. But the way they did it is horrible and when you put just enough horrible things into a great game it ruins it. I want my game to feel like an experience not a waste of my time!
My primary issue with the Shrines is that for challenges designed to push the player to get better they were pretty bad at their job. There should have been a combination of actual dungeons with the other challenges, and the baseline for the easy challenges following the Great Plateau is in my opinion far too low. Yes, working in more natural things into the artificial area like the Trial of the Sword does would have helped immensely too for many reasons, but the fact is this is the only recent example I can give Nintendo a pass on due to the framing. In spite of that they failed to capitalize on the one time where artificial challenges designed to push the player hard into growing as a player would have made sense. I dont understand Nintendo, as they can be so good with moment to moment gameplay, but have moved away not only from framing most of the gameplay better, but in the one case they could have leaned into the artificial nature from a story perspective much harder the absolutely ruin it by making the hardest part of many shrines finding them or getting to them.
IMHO. 3d world was too easy, because it accomplished it's goal way too well. How do I mean that? 3d world was aiming to give that classic side-scrolling mario gameplay from classics such as super mario bros 3 and super mario world a 3d-representation and they did that brilliantly! But while in super mario bros 3 you could only jump over bosses... In 3d-world they took that classic mario bros 3 boss battle and made a box-perfect 3d replica, in which you can also run around the because of the 3rd dimension. This makes it a million times easier to avoid the boss, making it waaay easier than mario bros 3 ever was. So I think 3d-worlds biggest strength (classic look and feel perfectly translated into 3d) is also it's biggest weakness.
This is such a great statement and huge props for putting it into video form Ceave. This is something I have felt a lot recently too but I couldn’t ever really put it into words, until you made this video. A lot of the reason people look back at Nintendo’s older games so fondly and with so much nostalgia in my opinion is for how lovingly crafted they were. Not only were they fun gameplay wise but their worlds were all so unique and beautiful for their times. When Mario sunshine came out it was so fun to dive into the adventure of Mario falsely accused for a crime he didn’t commit on a vacation resort and all the crazy adventures accompanied by it. Mario doesn’t need to have deep storytelling, it never has even had it. But it has lost its charm. We went from sunshine’s amazing premise and fun adventures to “oh no, bowser is big and angry, find some cat shines to calm him down”. Why are we even helping bowser junior? Bowser has always been and enemy and even Mario looks not interested to help out. It just seems rushed with little thought put into it. And all the little adventures are gone. It starts to feel the same after a while. I would just like to see Mario go on some of those crazy adventures like he used to go on, with the coating to back it up, and keep it all fresh and interesting. Good job and a great video Ceave :)
Mario sunshine suffers from having barely any platform challenges because they try to contextualize every platform into the world. Mario and galaxy strike a much better balance between aesthetics and gameplay. Tick tock clock doesn't make much sense when you think about it, but it makes enough sense for the player to not think about it and to inform players on how gameplay elements will work.
I understand your point but that's just cherrypicking, 90% of Mario games from all decades can be summed up with "Bowser bad save the princess" and we still had interesting takes on it in recent years, like I could easily make the opposite point by mentioning Mario 64 and Odyssey, or SMB1 and Kingdom Battle, also Bowser's Fury is not a fully fledged game at all and is essentially a secondary gamemode so comparing it to mainline games is just not correct, why doesn't the original Mario Bros remake programmed into the Superstar Saga cartridge have the same worldbuilding depth than Mario Galaxy? Yeah that just sounds dumb lol
I had a similar idea like this, but this video put this issue to words! Although I also enjoyed these games, there was something “plastic” and “dull” but I couldn’t put my finger in it. I really hope Nintendo can learn from this issue and give a sense of identity and nostalgia to what are already engaging games.
When I played A Hat in Time i noticed that some platforms in this game are awkward to jump on unlike newer mario games where platforms always perfect shapes (like sometimes hills aren't hills anymore but just stairs made out of grass). That's what i like in A Hat in Time that environments don't have perfectly shaped platforms like in real world.
I would also have liked to see some explanations on how and why Bowser became like that, on why he doesn't even care about attacking his own child or on what was this black goop and what caused it to appear. Like Bowser didn't see Mario, he didn't have any objective and he didn't even kidnap the princess, he just became mad while picnicking with his son which, when you think about it, is the worst moment to become mad. That is what led me to realize how gameplay is prioritized over anything else: the fact they didn't even bother to give us the simplest explanations. I honestly was wondering what was I even playing when I first got in the game, I felt lost because of the so ridiculously bare-bone "story" they were giving us. As you said, Bowser Fury is just "we throw you in a gigantic gameplay focus area, now have fun" without any depth whatsoever added on top, but even though the lack of scenery is part of the reason why that is, I definitely think that the lack of a story (not a deep one, I know this is a Mario game, something like 3D World's is enough) also is a big deal in that equation.
Finally, someone else talks about it! They put all this hype on this mysterious location (like the shadow clone of Luigi), and then answer absolutely nothing except that Bowser got this way because Bowser Jr. painted him for some reason (which is pretty much just Color Splash again, not even that he just finally got consumed in his hatred for Mario or anything.) Mario games aren't known for the plot or even making sense, but it just didn't answer almost any of the questions that the game raised, when most Mario games don't get enough credit that what happens in the games is surprising usually (suspensfully) cohesive/explained, just extremely bizarre. It feels like the Gameplay vs. Story thing that happened in the Rosalina backstory situation has finally come to a head or shown a glimpse of it.
Btw, the answer is shown in the credits to be that Bowser got covered in some of Jr's magic paint. Him painting over the portrait to show Fury Bowser when he's explaining the situation at the beginning was literal. ...I would say that's ridiculous, but he did make entire buildings disappear with that stuff back in Sunshine (which the goop being cleared is also how the map is revealed in this game), plus created monsters and transformed himself into a Mario clone, go I guess it all tracks.
@@Shalakor Thanks for telling me! I effectively re-watched the credits (I didn't really pay attention the first time) and it does seem that it's the exact same explaination as in Color Splash where the black paint has gained control over Bowser's mind. But first, we still don't know why he is giant or why such a small amount of paint covered such a giant area and second (and most importantly) it's not supposed to be the role of the credits to give us those kinds of explainations. You shouldn't learn the reason of your objective at the end of the game. It would have been better to start with a cutscene depicting the event :/ (By the way, in Color Splash, after we got rid of the black paint, Bowser stopped to be mad. That is not the case at all in Bowser's Fury)
@@Jann75 I answer the second comment without reading yours before, funny how we both thought of Color Splash! Not that it's something difficult to think about, the two games' "plots" are very similar, but still! And yes exactly as you said, in Mario games even if the story aren't very deep or elaborated, we usually know why we're doing things because things make sense, that's not the case at all here.
@@kitomichi I didn't say it made it better, just that it was what it was. It is a pretty unfortunate way to structure the story, even if you do want to use it as a punchline. And, at the end of the day, becoming giant is just something Bowser can do with any number of different stimuli. Even without an external power-up sometimes. Yay.
It’s crazy to see Ceave’s total transformation from a RU-vidr doing 2d Mario completion challenges to one of the most insightful game design commentators on RU-vid. Tbh I loved him then and it’s even better now.
I loved the challenge rooms in Odyssey because they just felt freaking surreal. But if the whole game would be like this... It wouldn't be that great. For me it's just a setting itself.
paul, you speak with such certainty for someone who clearly doesn’t know a thing about the topic. Trump was talking about it gold diggers demanding you do it the second they find out you are in the entertainment industry. Something tells me you even support that once I give the proper context.
I just wanted to say I appreciate the sections are green star 1, green star 2, green star 3, collectable stamp, and top of the flagpole. Now you have to hit the top of flagpole with the other 4 characters though
I don't fully agree on the idea that putting a coat of paint over the same challenge will make it good? I know a good setting is a lot more likely to make a game memorable but that doesn't need to be mutually exclusive with fresh gameplay ideas.
I'm not saying I disagree, but I do not remember any of the shrines from BOTW and the ones I do remember are either the ones at the start of the game or ones that I've seen in a lot of videos. But then I have played Galaxy and I remember LOADS of the levels from how unique they were, the sweet level is one of the most memorable to me.
i’ve felt this way too! i’m glad you made a video about this because when i’ve expressed this people have called me “ungrateful” or something to that effect. my problem is these don’t feel like places that existed before mario got here, which is crucial to immersion in any media. it feels like they were like, conjured up by some weird god-like entity and when mario leaves, they’ll disappear too. there’s nothing that indicates these places existed, there’s nothing that indicates it’ll exist when he leaves, there’s nothing that indicates any kind of life existed here. the platforms don’t even have any kind of wear or unevenness. they’re all perfectly shaped “video game floor” like you said. bowsers fury has the cat theme going on, but why? why are there so many cats here? why are the bells here? if you remove the ears from enemies and the giant bells or change them to something else, nothing in the world feels out of place. what if some of the islands were cat-themed? maybe big rotating scratch posts? giant cat toys for obstacles/platforms? i don’t know, but it just feels like there’s nothing giving them personality or a soul like you mentioned
@@ReikuYin tbh everytime i click on an april fools video and it isn't claimed as such in title already i just click away. The world burns enough already we don't need shitty trash joke videos.
This makes a lot of sense. You can tell Nintendo stopped focusing on the “garden design” just by analyzing the atmosphere of their new games. In Mario odyssey, each level is just floating in the sky. It weirds me out so much when I’m on the edge of New Donk City and just see an endless void of nothing below me. Why can’t there be buildings blocking my way instead? Then it would feel more like a real city. Instead it’s just floating island level number 500. Just compare Princess peaches castle stage to the original one from sm64. Mario 64 has clear tall walls that make you believe you are in a real location. Odyssey is yet again a floating island, and if you look out, all you see is an endless field of nothing. Mario galaxy has floating islands, but in that game you are literally in space flying to each planet so it makes thematic sense. In the new Mario games it just feels like you are in another level rather than another world. Same goes for breath of the wild. In previous games, the dungeons were so atmospheric. Each one had its own aesthetic and music. Think about the water temple in skyward sword with the heaven and hell theme, or the forest temple in ocarina of time being really spooky with its creepy music and enemies. In botw, it’s just generic sheika designs everywhere. Barely different music, no varying enemies, no actual atmosphere. For Christ sake even the bosses are all the same looking. The only thing that comes close to atmospheric is Hyrule castle, which has cool environments and music. But that’s not even a real “dungeon.” In conclusion, Nintendo has stopped making atmosphere a priority. They decide to prioritize gameplay but sacrifice soul like you said. I really doubt they will ever go back, because what they make now sells, and what sells gets made more.
The reason they're floating islands is because realism has never been a part of Mario games (SM64 levels like Whomps Fortress, Lethal Lava Land, and Tall Tall Mountain were also just floating islands). SMO's kingdoms are filled with flavor and personality. It gives each (major) kingdom its own mini story and unique population. Hell, the entirety of Lost kingdom is reframed as fixing your ship after getting shot down. These games SHOULD have more atmosphere (Galaxy remains my favorite Mario title) but Nintendo is still getting overworlds right.
@@neutraldalek4222 @Neutral Dalek yeah I really like lost kingdom and places like bubblaine because of that and the fact that they have borders to their levels that are realistic. Extreme realism has no place in a Mario game, but just the smallest amount greatly improves on atmosphere. A good example is luigi's mansion: since it was basically a tech demo showing off the graphical capabilities of the gamecube, everything in the game was more realistic looking. The whole mansion looked like it could be built in real life, and all of the furniture and paintings were just realistic enough to make the game feel unnervingly weird. Like you said, realism is not usually apart of Mario games, so when luigi's mansion had so much realism, it stuck out and is in my opinion the most atmospheric Mario game (and also my favorite.) Also you're right about the cool inhabitants in each Mario odyssey level. I forgot about them, they definitely add to the atmosphere in a good way.
i mean there's always the other islands flying out there in odyssey (never played botw so i cant speak on that) which to me personally makes me feel like there is still more out there but you just cant access it, it doesnt make it feel any less real to me tbh than there just being some random wall like you described in SM64
@@mreevee7785 Yeah that’s how I feel when I see the other planets in the background in Mario galaxy. I just find it weird that there are so many floating islands, even though on the world map you can see the whole planet is just plain land. I guess it’s a silly thing to think about anyway, it’s supah mario, there are floating coins and hills with eyes. Floating islands are just a Mario staple, some are better than others but they are a part of the series
You've really clarified to me tons of problems I've had with Nintendo games but never really understood why they were problems at all. Watching playthroughs of Bowser's Fury, I didn't get why every single cat was a calico. They're already going so far as to literally repeat the same task multiple times. Now presumably they're using the rule of 3 to elevate the challenge each time, with more cats in more complicated locations (usually the function that makes 3D Land levels so good in the first place) but they can't even reskin the goddamn cats! Make one family calicos, the next one tomcats, and the last one could be more colourful and wild to look like they belong in a Mario game. But no, just the exact same calico skin every time. Breath of the Wild is one of my favourite games of all time. The first time I played it, I didn't really notice anything wrong with the shrines or divine beasts because I was so busy having fun with the unique puzzles (or getting frustrated with the gyroscope ones). I started to get tired of the tests of strength, but they were paced out enough I didn't take much notice. Second time playing through on my switch, the shrines weren't really fun anymore. It was either plain old boring, or actively frustrating that I can't seem to do this puzzle I KNOW I've done before. The third time I played the game (now in Master Mode) I found the most pleasure in actively avoiding fast travel and discovering every little piece of beauty. Visiting a glowing Satori Mountain for the first time, discovering little hole in the wall locations, just beautiful experiences like that. The shrines and divine beasts were absolutely nauseating, though. I couldn't get through them fast enough, considered learning the wind bomb technique just to skip the puzzles at hand, used any skips I'd learned from watching speedruns of the game. And now I understand - they're goddamn boring once you lose the novelty of a new puzzle. I wanna be a Nintendo Fanboy so bad, they have so much potential and I've loved their games for ages, but they seem to just keep getting worse.
I felt this same problem when playing through Paper Mario and the Origami King. Everything was focused on gameplay to the detriment of everything else.
I think the conclusion of the video could have benefitted greatly from explicitly pointing out that both SMO and BotW have a *mixture* of environment *and* pure gameplay. Yes, SMO does have a lot of moon obtained from "artificial" means, but also plenty from unique ways, like saving a bowl of soup from a big mean bird, or by gathering musicians and repairing the power grid in order to prepare to celebrate with a giant throwback festival. Yes, BotW does have shrines, but they also have quests for plenty of other things, like you need to find a place in the giant open world where a picture was taken a hundred years ago to regain your memories of the past, or you need to find people to help out a new growing settlement with their names also required to end in "-son", or you need to help all the people in a town to show you care about them and gain the trust of their leader. In my opinion, that would have been the perfect segway into a "but..." where he explains that Bowser's Fury goes too far into pure gameplay elements with no contrast. I think it kind of diminishes the point where you directly compare BotW and SMO with Bowser's Fury, when you could instead use the first two as the "just right" mixture of pure gameplay and environment and meaningful objectives, and then Bowser's Fury being the example of going too far to one extreme.
had to scroll too far down to find a comment actually talking about the video rather than "april fool's haha" his belief tho is SMO and BOTW have "gamey" elements, and it's getting worse with bowser's fury, but he forgets to mention mario sunshine's platformer levels lol
@@chrisnguyen2316 That true tho, but at least there were sometimes story and atmosphere leading up to them. I was thinking more about the "catch Shadow Mario" Shines, but you got a point.
It's a shame I had to scroll so far to find this comment. Having the ability to include sections that are stripped down to just pure gameplay is a GOOD thing, and SMO strikes an excellent balance. BotW on the other hand takes it a bit too far IMO. Having a core part of the gameplay loop essentially devoid of theme doesn't work the same way that occasionally offering small sections of theme-less gameplay does.
Ceave does mention SMO and BotW having both environment and pure gameplay and doing it well when it happens earlier in the video, but I agree that at least mentioning it again near the end would've really tied things together even tighter than it already was.
The start perfectly sums up why I think 3D World is one of the most underrated mario games. Probably because it was 1. Released on the Wii U ( honestly an underrated console in itself ) and 2. Because people say it's too linear but that doesn't stop THEM from loving Mario Bros 3, another linear game just with different stages, power ups and one less dimension. But I think 3D World is better top 10 I'd say ( Mario World is better than Bros 3 change my mind ). 9/10 easy. *In my opinion*
@@gab_v250 I thought that's what he was getting at. Simply jumping across floating blocks or horizontal walls just to get from point A to B isn't as motivating or interesting as having some sort of narrative goal to complete. Otherwise it might as well just be another bland mobile or flash game where you cross platforms without a proper means to an end.
I don't really get why Miyamoto is so against story elements in Mario games. I mean in the old times that was understandable since there was not enough storage. Is it because the games would take longer to develop?
@@AkameGaKillfan777 but after seeing and playing Mario RPGs now the standard "Mario beats Bowser and saves Peach" sounds a bit dated to me. I would like to see a new game where the hero, the villain and the princess get together to defeat a greater evil. It sounds like the plot of Super Mario RPG or the one of Super Paper Mario, but I would like a new game based on that.
I'm so sad Ceave didn't talk about Hollow Knight, because it's *incredibly* atmospheric: you don't platform on a specifically designed platforming challenge making use of conveyor belts, you jump across a crystal-lined ravine using conveyor belts erected by an ancient civilization that are being used to transport the crystals that are being mined from the area's walls by the area's enemies. Nothing in Hollow Knight feels out of place or video-gamey. (Except maybe the saws in the White Palace.)
None of the walls or floors are diagonal. This makes the game feel a lot more geometric and less like real places. I assume this was done so it'd be easy to design the map and there is more visual clarity with how you can interact with with in gameplay. I'm not saying hollow knight is bad or it did it's environments poorly, I'm just pointing out an example of a concession made from the visuals to the gameplay which makes the world feel more gamey.
@@toowiggly I played hollow knight for nearly 50 hours before i noticed the lack of diagonal or curved walls or ceilings or floors. The game hides it so well with its beautiful environments. If Nintendo made something like hollow knight, and it also didn't have any curves or diagonals, I think most people would recognize it after a few minutes.
@@toowiggly Yes, HK doesn't have any diagonal walls. Yes, it has unsupported floating platforms. But it _is_ a video game. The reason for floors and walls being square is, like you guessed, for designing the map. The map is composed of a bunch of squares, with artwork layered over. Keep in mind, the game was made by 2 people, whereas Nintendo is a AAA company. Like the other commenter said, the artwork overlayed over the boxy map does such a good job of hiding the boxiness that it doesn't even matter. Look at Greenpath, or the Queen's Gardens: sure, the collisions are straight, but they don't feel straight, because of the organic curves in the artwork.
@@colecube8251 There actually are curves in Hollow Knight, I can think of one of the top of my head that I know for sure is an arch and not just a square with artwork overlayed in Greenpath. No diagonals that I can think of, however.
Not every video has to reference HK:) Plus, for this specific point, I feel like other games would have fit better as an example. Look at DKC Tropical Freeze.
I was going to sit half an hour watching this video ironically, but it isn't an April fool's video, so I'm going to sit half an hour watching this video unironically Edit: I did it (I also April fooled myself by sitting 31:39 minutes instead of half an hour)
AAAAAAHHHHH!!!! PAAAAAIIIINNNN!!!!!! I broke my hand yesterday because of the hate comments I get. I was so angry that I punched a hole in my computer.
i was thinking how i felt like mario odyssey feels a bit like a thinly coated facade, like you could pull back the curtain and see the gears at any points, like the illusion is extremely easily broken compared to some earlier mario games. idk
*sees notification*: Oh, another April Fools video. Let's see *opens video and sees 31:39 at the bottom*: - Oh wow, he really put a lot of effort for a April Fools video. That's odd. *3 minutes in*: - Oh, this is actually a genuine video. Now that's the ultimate April Fools.
I always thought that gameplay was the most important thing which I still do think, but context and/or art is also very important. I probably wouldn’t enjoy games nearly as much if everything were just colored blocks
Game play + story -> environment = game. Game plat and story are just about equal in importance and combine to inspire environment and art and all three make a game. Even if you don't tell the story directly it is still important. It is what separates a cart racer from Nascar or death race.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 Well i respect your opinion. :) And dont get me wrong i dont always hate cel shading art style. It is just the way wind waker does it hits me the wrong way
I'm pretty much the inverse. The gameplay should merely be there to supplement the story. If the story or characters aren't meaningful. Why bother? I will just forget about the game in a week and have wasted all that time. It is a "gross" example but games solely focused around gameplay is equivilant to JO. It feels good but you forget about it soon after. But one is free and takes a lot less time.
Bowser’s Fury lacks so much coating because it was a low-budget bonus addition whose dev team ended up making it into a relatively substantial standalone adventure.
Oh and there's another problem with this design philosophy, or maybe more just about Miyamoto, and to show you it, we need to talk about Koizumi. Yoshiaki Koizumi wanted to do cinema, to do art, he ended up making Nintendo games, even as director, and so he did some of the best Nintendo games ever like probably his best piece of art, made without the intervention of Miyamoto: _The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask_ . And what a masterpiece it was, being excellent gameplay wise ANS thematicly wise, with great messages included even in the gameplay itself, the game is actually build around what it wants to say. It was fresh, so rare in Nintendo games to have a focus on the thematics along with the gameplay. After that, Koizumi worked as the director of _Super Mario Galaxy_ but Miyamoto didn't really like his philosophy or putting things other than the gameplay first, even alongside the gameplay, to put story and morals in HIS franchises. Koizumi probably already tried to do this in _Super Mario Sunshine_ but Miyamoto stopped him. For Galaxy, he had to be smarter, themes would be hidden, in the music, in the universe, in the story book. Koizumi wrote Rosalina's story book in one night to not be influenced which Miyamoto found interesting. With Miyamoto not seeing what he did, Koizumi talked about family, its loss, its gain, through Rosalina, comparing it to the terrifing eternal silence of the infinite spaces, making one of the best Mario game ever. BUT THEN, MIYAMOTO remarked it and basically destroyed Koizumi artistic carrer, he would never be a director again, just a simple producer with no artistic ambitions and for all HIS games, the gameplay would now be putted first AND ALONE. No one cares if Zelda M.M. is better than O.o.T. or if Galaxy 1 is better than Galaxy 2, the games are still good, Galaxy 2 is actually better in game design than Galaxy 1. But the games will never reach their full artistic potentiels. And that's another reason why putting the gameplay first before anything else is, in a way, bad. Hopefully, there's still hope, last year, a Mario game with excellent story and a moral released with _Paper Mario: The Origami King_ .
Thank you for bringing this up! I think these artistic additions are so important to games to prevent them from feeling empty and generic. I know a good Mario game doesn't need a good story, but I think it adds so much more and makes it so much better. The story wouldn't even need to be very serious, but make it at least something else instead of the boring old "Princess Peach got kidnapped by Bowser" story. Like remember when in 1992 with Super Mario Land 2 the story was that Mario's castle was taken over by an "evil" version of himself? Instead of the tired old kidnapping they introduced Wario for the very first time and shaked up the old formula, which was even reflected in the "open world" design. It was new and exciting!
Miyamoto knew about Rosalina's Storybook before it was added though. He and Koizumi also came to a decision together to cut back on the story in Galaxy 2, Miyamoto didn't strong arm him or anything.
@Followup Account, yes for Majora's Mask even though he put lots of pressure on Aonuma and Koizumi to make their game, and I never said that he did anything in that game, but for Galaxy, no, Miyamoto have the habit of controling the games of the franchises that he made.
I kind of wanted a secret where we find that all of the shrines are connected into some kind of mega-dungeon, but then i realized that was just portal, so i went and played portal again.
That box garden thing is a great way to describe the vibe I've always gotten from my favourite 2D Zelda games, like LttP and Minish Cap. Even though their worlds are pretty small, every screen somehow feels gigantic and mysterious because of how thick the atmosphere is. Exploring the caves of Death Mountain or looking down from the the cloud-top area in Minish Cap always made me feel like I was legitimately at the edge of the world, pushing the boundaries of the game map into unknown territory (even though not much was really there). Same goes for certain dungeons in Twilight Princess- getting stuck for an hour on spatial awareness puzzles somehow came off as overcoming daunting and ancient trials rather than being too stupid to remember which way the water staircase was pointing, etc. Ironically I rarely got that feeling from BotW, the game Nintendo designed entirely around the concept of exploration. You could chalk it up to me just being older, but I have gotten that childhood Zelda feeling from one modern game- namely Hollow Knight- so there must be something more to it. Anyway, this was a very insightful video.
Brilliant video. Feels like an April Fools, but it isn’t. Every single transition had me guessing as to where you were taking things. The way you explained and resolved each point was absolutely phenomenal; more people should strive to do what you just did. This is the perfect video essay.
{Too much a focus on gameplay! TOO MUCH GAMEPLAY! That's like saying games are too much fun. Do you really want more grinding, leveling, and button mashing with flashy aesthetics?} This was the first video I saw today, but after a couple of seconds I remembered what the date was. I cheerfully clicked on the video, only to be given a very very compelling case for why Nintendo is stripping things down too much. Dang Ceave you make my head spin.
Yeah, even though I disagree with him in some areas since I really enjoy Odyssey and Bowser's Fury, I still see where he's coming from, and I think his criticisms could be used by Nintendo to make better games.
I don't comment often and I rarely leave a like. However I have to do both because of this video to contribute. You really had a point and you explain it perfectly. Thing is, you're giving your opinion (even if you pulled out facts to support them) on the Internet with a bunch of fanboys that can't handle criticism or a look on reality. I hope you have a tough skin and you don't let yourself being discouraged by the dislikes and the comment. *Keep going, because you didn't wrong.* Keep that in mind.
I thought this vid was going to be a whole expansive conspiracy theory of why Nintendo is killing Mario. Though now that I think about it, that's a good idea for another vid.
A majority of this issue comes from Miyamoto himself with keeping things as "pure" as possible. Not everyone at Nintendo thinks that way, but over time, they've been restricted more and more from putting their own spin on things. Why else would a harmless thing like Rosalina's backstory be so frowned upon that it had to be snuck into the game? Someone else commented this but it does describe Miyamoto to a T: he's the type of guy who would make an extremely delicious batch of chocolate chips and will look at you in horror if you ever use those chocolate chips in any kind of recipe.
I'm not sure if Bowser's Fury is a great example to use given it was probably a lower budget project given its purpose as a sorta bonus scenario for a Wii U port.
My favourite moments in breath of the wild were always the unique events such as the top of Mount lanaryu (I won't spoil what's up there) and this has also made me realise this lack of unique context for moons in odyssey is what my main problem with the game is and has given me a greater appreciation to galaxy which was already my favourite Mario game. I just hope Nintendo learns to fix this, especially with breath of the wild 2 when one of the main complaints was how the dungeons aren't themed. Great video as always ceave.
Yep. World building and narrative is usually as important for me as gameplay. It's the difference between going to a theme park with great rollercoasters but no theming and going to a theme park where every world you step into is rich and specific and immersive. I'd rather go to the latter, even if the coasters weren't as good.
Can't stop thinking about how in Spyro 3 the majority of dragon eggs are found by directly helping a denizen of the level you are in, and the challenge takes place in the level itself in a really natural way. On top of that from every dragon egg a different baby dragon with a unique name and colouration from like 20 different animated dragon bases is hatched. Really there's a lot that can be learned from Spyro 3. I remember first playing it when I was like 10 and just being gobsmacked at the level of detail.
I have a question about this. I definitely agree with you on this and have noticed it in my playing of Odyssey and Breath of the Wild, but what would you say about the fact that these two recent games are commonly considered some of the best, if not the best, games on the Switch? Would you say that they managed to achieve this despite their lack of “coating” because other parts are so good, or that since they didn’t have to coat anything they could work more on other aspects of the game, or that it doesn’t really have an impact now but will down the road when Nintendo fans are burnt out from “uncoated” games? I doubt you’ll see this, but if you do or if someone else has their thoughts I would love to hear them.
I completely agree with the BOTW shrines, they not only all looked almost identical, that the reward was always the exact same piece of heart/stamina. Sure you got clothes sometimes, but it's not like you get items that draw a visual or thematic connection to the shrine puzzle.
For me - I did not imagine what he looked like, because I like the idea of watching a "mysterious disembodied voice". And, unfortunately, it's hard to yet that experience now, with EVERYBODY relealing what they look like.
I think you "framed" this episode completely wrong. By saying "gameplay first", that means that it's an issue of priority, rather than of focus. What do I mean about this? Lets say you have 2 games, one whose narrative is designed around a pre-conceived mechanic of painting the ground with your bullets and you have another game whose mechanics are designed around a pre-conceived premise of a realistic Japanese samurai game. By grounding the game's narrative around just those mechanics, you get a story thats very lite, shallow, and hollow. Where with restricting a game based on realistic narrative/astatic, you can no longer introduce non-sensical cartoony mechanics like bouncing off a a chair to get a springy jump. These 2 games I am referring to is Ghost of Tsushima and Splatoon. They represent the 2 sides of "Gameplay First" and "Narrative/Story/Esthetic First" where one would serve as the foundation and everything is catering/built around that. You can still do great things with an "X-First" appreoach while still putting focus on all areas if you choose to. A great example of "focus on all areas" while still having the "gameplay-first" approach would be Sunset Overdrive, so do give that a look if you so choose. And that brings me to my point: The issue you described here. . . that is not the same issue as "gameplay first". What you are referring to is things along the line of "lacking effort in specific areas" or "lack of coating". Notice both are an issue of "lacking", not of "priority". If the art is lacking, the gameplay is not at fault for that. If the art is lacking. . . it's because they lacked to put in some art. The gameplay in this case would not restrict them from adding art nor is it impossible to do it in a way that wouldn't be stepping on the gameplays toes. It's not as much as they were restricted it as much as they were just simply not focusing on it, that they didn't care, that they didn't choose to. If I am going to be blunt. It's a sign of laziness. A choice of not putting in effort for no other reason other than because they wanted to do the bare minimum, bare minimum being making gameplay. They chose not to do more than that with something like adding extra details to "why random platforms" or things of that nature of dolling it up, "coating", as you stated it. That was not a self-imposed restriction by design. That's just being lazy and choosing not to for the sake of minimalization. It's like mini-golf. It's not a full golf course. it's not grass, sand, or water you are golfing on. Its all rugs, fabrics and carpets. It's not that it couldn't be grass, sand or water. It's that they chose not to. Minimalist by design where minimalist is not preferred nor is anything suggesting that it should be this way. No philosophy is dictating the notion of not giving the platforms special attention to detail to give them a nice texture that engrains it more to the world around it. That's not philosophical dictation at play, that's just a choice of not putting in the effort. So now we are back to what I mean when I said your framing was bad. I'm not disagreeing with your points, far from it. I agree entirely with the final notion. However, the framing of "Gameplay first" is framing it as a topic of priority. This issue you are poining out is not that. This is an issue of effort. Your meaning shows this a bit more clearly but your framing used from that term does not. Even if you have a top priority of gameplay, it doesn't mean you just forget about your other priorities entirely. The issue is that they aren't being well-rounded with their focus. You can prioritize something while still being well rounded with the focus on their other priorities. The issue stems from that they aren't trying to be well rounded and balance it. This is why I call it an issue of effort. Because it's not that gameplay has a higher priority, rather that they don't put any focus on anything else. "Gameplay-Only Focus" where it is of "exclusive" priority rather than just "primary" priority. Perhaps the main issue is the use of "first" as far as framing goes. I only point this out because i personally find that "gameplay-first", being that of the approach of designing your world around your gameplay mechanics rather than designing your gameplay mechanics around your narrative ascetics, to be the right approach and that by mislabeling the issue, you are painting a good practice out to be something negative due simply to shifting the blame to the wrong area with your framing. . . and I don't like the idea of scolding a good practice based around simple mislabeling and confusing what the issue actually is: Neglection. Look up Second Wind mod on how it personalizes each and every shrine. Same shrine, but given a better sense of individuality. The issue that mod fixed, that issue wasn't "gameplay-first" or how art effects gameplay, it was just simple attention to detail. It was just the simple choice of doing more. It's not a choice of sacrifices for gameplay sake, it's just simple neglection.
@@jabarihoskins8958 Yeah, it was just poor word choice sadly. I had to over-pander to clarify that the issue was the word choice rather than the catspiracy itself that he was pointing out.
Other AAA games sort of hit the same problem from the opposite direction where everything is so needlessly detailed that you tend to look past everything for the gameplay elements. Then it doesn't matter that things are coded differently since you only see the gameplay objects at that point.
I really gotta say this, but I'm so glad you took this direction with the channel. I loved watching your Mario Maker videos, but this last string of videos has honestly drawn me in more so than ever. I've never seen a channel approach the topics like you do, and your method of building up to your main point is done so well I lose myself in the flow of the video. I have and will recommend you to others!
This video put into words what I had started to feel with BotW's shrines. They at least have the in-universe justification of being deliberate puzzles that characters built, rather than just boring terrain that happens to be puzzling. The sameness isn't quite as bad because they only occur as breaks from the much more real and vibrant overworld, but I would love to see even a small change that at least made the shrines in one region feel different from those in another region, like if the music had a new instrument added in (Drums for Eldin, harp for Lanayru, sitar for Gerudo Desert, etc.)
