No Purgatory 

Ty Fr Josiah…as an Orthodox catechumen…(transitioning from Evangelical)…I can’t even begin to tell you how good this makes me feel…the first time I learned I could pray for our loved ones who have passed on…whether or not in the Lord…I rushed to my room, fell on my knees and prayed for my beloved sister and earthy father…this was only the beginning…now I have what I call my “prayer hit list”…which keeps building, the more word gets around that I will help pray for anyone who asks…I have profound hearing loss…and I can’t have quality conversations anymore…but I sure can pray…”Lord Jesus Christ, son of God…have mercy on us sinners!”

Please pray for the salvation of my dad Zhelyo who passed away...😢

As a Catholic, I appreciate this video. Thank you for elucidating the Orthodox position on such an important issue, Father Josiah Trenham.

I am evangelical and am moving toward Orthodoxy. I am still stumbling and struggling with some parts but hope to learn and overcome.

Thank you, Father. St. Marks quotes are a comfort to the soul of a young man struggling with past sin.

Here is something that we never realized. Jesus and the Apostle Paul Prayed for the Dead. When, Jesus' Foster Father, St Joseph, died, Jesus remembered him in Prayer. Paul never said do not pray for the dead, but do not give yourselves over to grief.

Thank you Father for all your work. Especially being on the list of the online Orthodox “rebels” preaching truth and not ecumenism. God have mercy on us in these times

Thank you, father! This helps many people and adds to the catechism of we Orthodox. 💗☦️

As a new Roman Catholic I had to affirm the teaching of purgatory but now I see the problem with that

I can’t tell you how thankful I am for this, as a Roman Catholic, former evangelical Protestant , who does not and cannot accept any doctrine of purgatory as contrary to the grace of God as our source of salvation, (lest any man should boast-Ephesians), and as against the creed (the forgiveness of sins). I am an Augustinian scholar, and what you say he would be perfectly happy with. Keep preaching, Father!

You where a huge help in me finding the true Church. My family and myself are forever grateful.

This man keeps me grounded! Healthy!

Thank you for this. Not yet Orthodox, but this was very fascinating and enlightening.

Thank you for this Father Josiah. I am not Orthodox, but I am moving in that direction now and have been for a while. I have always worried about the state of my deceased mother, but having a protestant background and understanding, I came to believe that death was the end; yet, St. Paul's mention of praying for the dead always intrigued me. It was only when I bought an Orthodox prayer book that I had come to know that there is this concept for praying for the dead. I thought it was crazy, nevertheless, I started praying for my mom. After watching this video, you have fleshed out an understanding for the purpose of praying on behalf of the dead. This has given me hope and a faith in God's mercy and redeeming love that, Lord willing, can touch one beyond the grave. Thank you, Father Josiah.

"Divine Goodness conquers the idea of justice." This single sentence is really what fosters hope in forgiveness. When even you can't forgive yourself, the Love of God can. We are so small, weak and insignificant in the infinite sea of God's love. Thank you, dear Father, for your videos.

Great reflection dear Father, as always. May God grant you many years

Glory to God for his true Church bearing good works. Father please as the Theotokos to intercede when we just can’t take it anymore.

These have been very comforting. Thank you Father.

I knew a Catholic nun and priest who said Purgatory is like a heavenly hospital. That made sense to me.

Thank you for this very informative and edifying word Fr. Josiah.

Always a blessing to hear your holy words on the Faith. Thank you, Father.

Your discussion was very helpful, even comforting. God bless and keep you.

Glory to God! 🙏

I thank the Lord for showing me your videos and a few other outspoken Fathers that have convinced me through their talks like this and the guidance of the Holy Spirit that EO is the way. I’m looking to become a catechumen here soon

Excellent video Abouna, thank you and God bless you!

Thank you father. In answer to your question, yes, it has been very helpful. I have always wondered about this.

This has been incredibly helpful, especially the bit on 1 Corinthians. That's been a passage I haven't had a complete rationale around in favor or against.

Thank you Father ☦. Highly recommend the Nicene Creed Course 🙏

Yes Father, this is a great summary, thank you.

Thank you Father. So very helpful!

This was helpful. Thank you .

cool video. Many thanks for posting that.

I agree. As a former Catholic who was Protestant for a while, thinking about even praying for the dead is not something one does. This is a topic that is uncomfortable and as you rightly said, often overlooked.

So deep gives one much to consider, reflect upon, and examine motive…

That was an amazing teaching. Thank you.

Thank you father! Your videos are a godsends.

During my 3 years as a Protestant, praying for the dead was a topic that confused me. I did not understand why people were so opposed to it, when nothing in the Bible seems to oppose it. The only thing I heard that resembled an argument was "it won't make a difference", which doesn't sound like a prohibition at all, and for which no scriptural backing was provided either.

I am sure I will not end there..praise glory to Christ..your Rapture..so your saying Revelation is a fable...Rev.20..I. Pray for u sir..

Amen 🙏

God spoke to Abraham of a purification that would be necessary. Hebrews 12:29 states For Our God Is a consuming fire. The fire of Purgatory is not punitive, rather it's purifying. When a man sinned, in the Old Covenant, He had to separate himself from the congregation and go to purify himself and then return to the Temple with a sin offering. The fires of Purgatory are not removed from God, the souls there are deeply immersed into His great mercy

Dear Fr. Josiah, the following of what Augustine wrote: In his dread of those more serious misfortunes, the speaker disregards this life which causes him to weep and groan with its misery, and makes his entreaty: Rebuke me not, O Lord, in thy indignation [Psalms 38:1]. Let me not be among those to whom thou wilt say: Depart into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels [Matthew 25:41]. Nor chastise me in thy wrath [Psalms 38:1]. Do thou cleanse me in this life and make me such that I shall have no need to pass through the purifying flames prepared for those who will be saved yet so as by fire [1 Corinthians 3:15]. Why? Is it not because in this world they are building upon a foundation of wood, hay, stubble? If they constructed with gold, silver, precious stones, they would be safe from both kinds of fire, not only from the everlasting fire which will torment the wicked forever and ever, but also from that which will purify those who are to be saved by fire. For we are told: He himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire [1 Corinthians 3:15]. And because of the phrase shall be saved, that fire is not taken seriously enough. Clearly, although they will be saved by fire, yet that fire will be more grievous than anything a man is capable of bearing in this life. Augustine: Discourse on Psalms (Enarrationes in Psalmos) 37.3 English translation from Ancient Christian Writers, Vol. 30, page 330-331 While Augustine did not use the word purgatory he distinguished two kinds of fire, the everlasting fire that will torment the wicked forever and the purifying fire.

Will you do a video on the Particular Judgement Father? If you could, it'd be greatly appreciated. ☦️

What about toll houses?

“But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.” Hebrews 9:27

Yep, 2 Maccabees speaks of praying for the souls of the dead.

I was confused about how on the one hand, the Orthodox believe that God being merciful means that punishment is no longer necessary, hence lack of a need of a purging fire, but on the other hand the soul goes to Hades to be punished for a time if the fruits of repentance have not been brought forth, or that a soul upon death faces tribulation by not going to be immediately with God. How is the Orthodox understanding different apart from the place or non place which the suffering for sins occurs for those who are not ready on their journey to be with God yet after death?

I think about death everyday. I understand I’m vulnerable to it, and I don’t get to decide how long I live. I don’t think of it for the fear of deliberately going to hell. I think of myself wanting to ensure I’m prepared for when my meeting with God takes place.

I think the "Deal" Christ gave to the thief on the cross that fateful day would be my first talking point in any apologetic discussion.

Good thing there was a Reformation. You detract from the sufferings, love and glory of Christ as soon as you begin to make your own atonement.

Purgatory is Purifying Love. The souls are immersed in the light and fire of God:s mercy and infinite love and holiness. Purification not from Sin, but from attachment and effect From Sin. A child is outside hitting baseballs with a bat. He breaks a neighbor's window with 1 of them. Although the neighbor forgives him, the child must make restitution for what he did. He must pay for the damage he caused. Sorrow is not always enough, a firm purpose of amendment is also necessary. Purgatory is not a prison, that's a medieval summation. Hebrews 12:29 states For Our God is a consuming fire.. The fire of justice snd mercy

“It is appointed unto men once to die, there after the judgement. “

The way I see it, the Latin of doctrine of purgatory is essentially equivalent to the Orthodox idea of temporary hell/hades, especially if we understand the “fire” and “time” in purgatory to be allegorical.

The doctrines of Purgatory and Mortal and Venial sin kept me and my wife from joining the Catholic Church. We were in RCIA and weeks away from coming into the Church. I just couldn’t say “Yes and Amen” to those things. Several days later the word “Orthodox” popped into my mind and I started researching it. Now, thank God, we are Orthodox. Baptized and chrismated on June 3, 2023. God bless you, Father Josiah. You played a role in our conversion to Holy Orthodoxy.

min 11:50 Rejection of Purgatory, but affirmation of the intermediate state?

I’ve been a Recovering Catholic for almost fifty years. Still learning how to pray with meaning. It’s a relief that when I complete my Confession with the Orthodox priest I feel truly forgiven, as it is Jesus that is forgiving me, not the RC priest. In the RC, one never feels truly forgiven, as one immediately does the “penance” which is the “sentence” to avoid purgatory. The phoniness of all this makes one not that bothered about going back to so-called “venial” sins. Which is another problem for the average goody-goody Roman Catholic, who is led to believe that they’re not much of a sinner at all, because all their deeds are “venial.” In contrast, Orthodox say, “I’m the First of Sinners” every time we are about to receive Holy Communion. Thanks Holy Spirit for leading me to the straight path to Jesus, the Orthodox Church. #NoPurgatory

I appreciate your teaching. How is one to understand the teaching of toll booths in orthodoxy? As a catholic it occurs as a purgatorial substitute. Luke's gospel in chapter 16 mentions 4 outcomes, 2 of which mention beatings that I understand as purgatorial. Please comment and God bless.

🌸☦️🌸

As A Catholic, I've much respect and admiration for my Orthodox brothers and sisters. I like the Eternal Memory prayer which is prayed for the departed. Praying for our departed loved ones simply means that we ask God, the creator of life, to do what he has promised. To remember the departed souls and bring them into His mercy and faithfulness and Infinite Love for All Humanity! It is therefore, not wrong to ask God to have mercy upon His creation, which we All Are.

Also, st john chrysostom wrote in the 5th century, hundreds of years before the RC Church clarified the doctrine of purgatory. st john chrysostom’s statement on divine Justice do not contradict the Catholic teaching of purgatory . Yes - the Catholic Church has been clarifying dogma for 2000 years - the Immaculate Conception, confession, the communion of saints All Christian Churches have done this ( Southern Baptists in the US are making a “profession of faith” right now) but not all have infallibility

The Eastern Orthodox Synod of Jerusalem (1672) declared: "The souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each hath wrought" (an enjoyment or condemnation that will be complete only after the resurrection of the dead); but the souls of some "depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed, especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most, which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not."[ Isn't this viewpoint of the Orthodox Church literally the exact same concept as purgatory?

Enjoying your presentation. I noticed you reference the Latin as authoritative....what about the Greek? I use the Rena Valeria along side the NKJ for reference, since I don't know Greek.

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“Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” Matthew 5:26

min 20:30 Souls go to prison? Like in Mat 5:25-26. Another reference of Purgatory.

Those who reject Father God’s creations are condaming their own soul 😢 Repent and amend one's ways

✝️!!!

As an Orthodox Christian I've been trying to understand St. Gregory "on the soul and the ressurection" which seems to express purgatory as well as a hopeful universalism. I'd love to see you or someone explain this work, maybe I'm misunderstanding it. Being one of the three holy Heirarchs and the older sister being a teacher of both him and St. Basil. That seems troubling for our position.

Purgatory (βασανιστήριον καθαριστήριον) is a temporary state and a place where the souls of those who are found in grace by special judgment, but are not pure enough in the sight of God, are purified until the final judgment. In ancient Christianity, the idea of purgatory was essentially denied by no one. Aërius in the 4th century only questioned the efficacy of intercession for the dead; likewise later the Waldensians. In the system of other heretics, there was hardly room for purification; as with the Manicheans, Gnostics, and Cathars, who only acknowledged the redeemed and the damned. Since the schism, the Greeks have stubbornly denied the possibility of purification, in opposition to the cardinal teaching of the great fathers of Alexandria, but not the punitive sufferings, and intercession for the dead. Since the 13th century, some of them have denied the existence of purgatory. The position of the Greeks implies the idea that the soul's fate is only ultimately decided at the Last Judgment; their sufferings and the prayers for them prepare a merciful judgment for them. The Christian tradition indeed bears enough witness when it prays steadfastly for the deceased from the beginning. It was a profound conviction that injustice would be done to the martyr who prayed for him. But that someone should pray for the damned was ruled out; therefore, they could only pray for those who were not yet before God, but were preparing to go there; on whom intercession could still have an effect. From this kernel of practical confession grew the formal doctrine of purgatory; meanwhile, it had to contend with more than one foreign element (Bellarmin. 1, 11.). The first explicit witness is the author of Acta Pauli (around 160): Thecla prays for the deceased Falconilla that she may reach the place of the righteous (Acta Pauli 28.). Tertullian speaks especially firmly about the necessity of intercession for the dead and the efficacy of the Mass offered for them (Tertul. Cor. mil. 3; Monog. 10; Anima 58; Resur. 42.). The Passion of Perpetua and Felicitas (probably written by Tertullian) contains a charming vision: Perpetua sees her seven-year-old brother, Dinocrates, who died of cancer without baptism, in a dark place, with a distorted face, in great thirst. "This caused me great grief. I woke up and was aware that he was suffering. But I was filled with hope that I might be able to procure him some relief. I prayed for him night and day, and with tears persistently entreated God to be gracious to hear me. One day when we were suffering in the hard prison, I had another vision: The same place from which I saw Dinocrates step forward was now very bright; my brother was in clean and good clothes; on his face, where the cancer had been, you could only see a scab. The water vessel (which in the previous vision was much higher than the boy's stature) was now so low that he could easily reach it, and on the edge stood a full drinking cup. When Dinocrates quenched his thirst from it, he went off to play like a child. I woke up and recognized that he had been freed from his punishment." Cyprian speaks quite clearly (Cypr. Epist. 55, 20; cf. 59, 18; Mortal. 26.): "It is one thing to ask for forgiveness, another to enter glory. It is one thing to improve for sins through long torments and to purify oneself through prolonged fire; another is to cast off all punishments by suffering (martyrdom)."

Hebrews 9:27 ESV / 162 helpful votes And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

As a Catholic, who has believed in the Church's teaching on this, I'm not here to debate nor argue the point.

If there is purgatory Jesus Christ Died For Nothing

Please forgive me if I misunderstood…so is they’re a chance of our unsaved family members who have passed to receive Gods grace and mercy and be saved through our prayers and deeds?

As a Catholic I would say that our understanding of purgatory is that our virtue of Love is perfected before entering into the beatific vision of God. I always view the "fire" as the same fire/light of God. This light convicts sinners, heals those saved from their imperfect love, and this fills the perfected soul with joy in the beatific vision.

I know someone who murdered a friend of his and spent 20 years in prison because of it. He confessed and repented before he entered prison. What was the spiritual purpose of that 20 year prison sentence?

Father (or anyone), where can I read the writings of StM ark of Ephasus?

17:57 min and I get confused. Roman Catholics believe that purgatory will NOT save anyone, but cleanse them from sins. Salvation or damnation is determined during the time when one is still alive, and once death comes to a soul, there is nothing else to be done for their salvation. A soul is purgatory s a soul already saved. I never heard of any teachings of the Roman Catholic Church stating that purgatory is for the salvation of the souls. Maybe I understood it wrong in the video, please correct me if I'm wrong. I recently (almost 4 years ago) converted to the Roman Catholic faith and I am still learning. I am not able to do fully participate in the faith (mass and other rituals) as my husband has yet to start the annulment process in order for me to become fully initiated. It is a long path for me. But I truly appreciate the videos of Father Josiah. Thank you! Orthodox faith is beautiful!

Dear Fr. Josiah, Malachi 3:2 refers God as refiner's fire and fuller's soap - both have something to do with cleansing. Zech. 13:8-9 says that God will put some (one third) into fire as one refines silver and test them as gold is tested. What is your understanding of the above verses?

Why would we not? Some people calling themselves Christians must not believe in the afterlife

There will be an intermediate state after death. It is non physical, right here beside us living beings. You can still pray to loved ones and some of us can receive messages direct through telepathic methods. I have had several after life communications. Unclear to me how long the intermediate state lasts before they are called to the next chapter.

What’s frustrating for me is that a lot of Protestants don’t accept maccb. As inspired scripture so they just ignore it and disregards it’s content for leading them to conclusions about how they should conduct themselves as Christian’s or to get any tradition from it so then they disregard that scripture as a means to backing up that practice.

loved the video but as a "protestant" those of us in the confessional Lutheran church do pray for the dead and our confessions say that it is of great benefit>

I have a question about Orthodox belief on this topic. Maybe I missed something, but from what I understand, those who have unconfessed sin, they would go to hades awaiting the final judgement for a time (then Mark of Ephesus explains ways of cleansing). So for those faithful, would they also go to hades for a time, somewhere else (maybe wondering) or Paradise? A second question arose around 22:14 on Orthodox understanding on forgiveness, and how divine goodness could conquer justice. I'm confused on that concept, because it seems allowing sin to go unpunished would be contrary to God's perfect justice. Thanks

That passage is not the only one that implies the existence of a purgatory condition, there are more in the gospels (Matthew 5:26, Matthew 12:31-32), the one of the Macabees quoted at the begining by Father Josiah, etc.. As well St Gregory Nissa talks about it. By the way: Father Josiah complains in his video about an orthodox perspective on roman catholicism, that St Thomas Aquinas called the orthodox church "the greeks", but he does not stop to call to us "the latins". That is not a good example.

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.” Corinthians 5:12

“He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the Lord.” Isaiah 48:10

Purgatory is not a place. It is a state. Where did you get your siurce that we believe it’s a llace, Father?

does that mean not all souls in hell are there permanently? some are confined to purge them of their sins before entering heaven?

I wouldn't see why this would be a reason not to share communion with each other. Both believe that there is a need to pray for the dead and that the dead are benefited by these prayers. There may be other reasons to remain in schism from each others Church, but I don't see how this justifies it. I pray for both Churches that they may be 1.

Genuinely asking….at around 1:30 to 1:40 did he say that the vast majority of Protestants have created the belief where one can fall from paradise or get out of hell? As a Protestant I have never in any denomination heard preached falling from paradise or being able to get out of hell. I’m not asking to debate that belief just the statement that the vast majority of Protestants actually believe that. That is simply not true. Or did I not hear it correctly. I went back and watched that section a few times and he se Ms to be saying Protestants believe that. Help me here.

hell is temporary in orthodoxy? that is what i understood from the wiki article

How do you explain the parable of the rich man and lazarus? It is clear there is no way to cross over.

As an American Protestant, may I ask a curiosity question: Father Josiah and many other EO priests pronounce the word schism “sizm” when I always thought it was “skizm.” Is there a particular reason for that? The Greek word has a chi in it, so I figured the pronunciation would include the ch- sound. Just a curiosity. Thanks

I don't understand, why would the Scriptures say we die once then the judgment, or that what we do while living is the basis of each person's' judgment? (Heb 9.27, Matt 16.27, even Luke 16.19-31 makes it clear there's no second chances) Why would this not be clearer in Scripture?

I still don't get what the "intermediate" state is, which we Orthodox believe exists, but is not "purgatory" and has no "purgatorial fire".

My understanding of the catholic position is as such: 1. a person dies 2. That person is standing before God 3. The Light of God either burns or beacons 4. If the person (by the holy spirit) has on earth synchronized themselves to God, Jesus enables them to approach the Fathers light to take part. 5. If the person by their own fault has made themselves incompatible with God, they will flee his burning light 6. If the person was not fully in step with God, but had not made themselves incompatible with God, they will be drawn into the light though it burns, and the light will burn until such a time as the refuse is burned away. I didnt understand where the orthodox position disagrees. Is it because the punishment is temporary? Or because of the idea that pure souls are in a different "place" than purified souls? Or because the purification takes place after death?

a roman catholic here. it seems to me, that purgatory is seen as "a place or process", so there is an ambiguity in the concept. if seen as a process - this roman teaching sounds very similar to what you said about st marcs teaching, doesn't it?

As an ex-Mormon who hasn't really yet found a church home, I find your videos very interesting and will be subscribing, but I do have to say that it really caught my attention (and not in the best way) when you labeled Origen an "early church heretic," considering he wasn't considered one until more than 300 years postmortem, under quite suspicious (as I understand it) circumstances.

Father, I am still a bit confused over the end of the sentence Mc “but he, himself, shall be saved.” That is, how this relates to one’s work found inadequate, so burned up, yet. I understand all the points you made. Maybe it’s just that, in this text, I don’t understand what “suffer loss” [yet is saved] means. All fall short, enter the mercy of Christ. There was a Saint, you may know the story he told to the monk who documented his life, wherein he describes a deceased woman, demon-possessed in her grave, so bound to the earth, so having seen her in this state and then, later, seeing her in a beautiful, high place, her guardian Angel busy scrubbing away at some last stain on the women’s garment. Could have been St Paisios, but I am reluctant to speculate. Fr. Andrew , Fr.Stephen De Young’s radio show partner would know. The scrubbing clean imagery hits home for me, but I don’t know. Thank you

I am not sure if a sound Catholic would disagree with this.

This position appears to be the same as Catholic doctrine, just phrased slightly differently