I was able to track down an article about their independent testing, it’s between 200-1200 cycles before they hit 80% of new capacity depending on manufacturing defects, graphite batteries are 500-1000 cycles but these batteries have between 2-3 times the energy density and charge far faster! They are focusing on the aviation industry because energy density is far more important than longevity for them, and these batteries are good for a much wider range of temperatures. they can use that money to research ways to make it have higher cycle life so it can eventually be good enough for electric cars.
It may remain a little too good (i.e. expensive) for use in mass production cars for the foreseeable future. But that's ok, as LFP or Na-ion should also advance considerably in the next 5..10 years to fill that gap.
It's not 200-1200 cycles due to defects... they make a variety of cell types that they refer to as energy, power or blended that will have different cycle lives based on different uses. While they haven't announced the life cycles of their cells tuned towards EV or eVTOL use cases, they are submitting cells to the DoE's USABC advanced battery coalition study and plan to meet all requirements by 2025. If that succeeds, that means they believe they will have EV-style cells with >1000 cycle life and I've gotten the impression that they are already easily in the 600-800 range now and improving rapidly.
@@foobarrel9046 oh yeah, I’m not saying it’s a bad thing at all, it’s got certain markets where it’s exactly what they need and want! It just seems most people jump straight to EV cars when they think of batteries, this just isn’t necessarily the best thing for that specific application *yet*
Love seeing battery tech tours, because the is the heart of the current transport revolution and green revolution. Hope to see more battery production tours and battery pack reviews by the Munro team.
@@rkan2 All hybrids have such cells. They're the problem is cost /kWh and Wh/kg energy density. At least new cells would offer cells good enough for PHEV and long range BEV. Will they be affordable enough to get into BEVs that normal people can afford, though?
Thank you Munro, much appreciated! Amprius appears to be off to a good start. Scale to manufacturing is always the question. It’ll be interesting to check in with these people in a few years.
I knew a little about Amprius because of the claimed (and verified) energy density of their batteries but I didn't know that they could be charged so rapidly. Wow!
Import to mention, that Electric Plane startups like MAEVE (Netherlands) are using Amprius as their battery supplier for their planes. They are developing a 40+ seat electric plane for medium distances (< 400 km of flight) and recently unveiled their newest design.
I like these tours, it gives Munro Live more video diversity, even though I am a fan of the teardown videos, watching too many of them continuously becomes tedious. great tour, great facility.
Like watching Merlin bring forth a dragon - this is AMAZING. Rarely do "we" get to watch history put on running shoes and sprint into the future. This is one of those occasions. I thank ALL involved in assembling these technological breakthroughs into a viable product. And thanks to MUNRO LIVE for sharing. So many uses, the mind races. Exciting !
Yeah, once everything is figured out, then they'll move manufacturing to China. Use the talent and government grants from USA and send the jobs over to China. Globalism is great isn't it?!
A Tremendous Amount Is Invented Here With Taxpayer Funds Contributing Only To Have Corporations Manufacture Somewhere Else Look Up How Much Gov Money Amprius Received .
That charge speed tho... from 0% with no pre-conditioning prior to charge. I realize this is not at scale and these batteries are expensive, but if this is a sign of what's possible in the near future, beating the time it takes at the pump would be incredible.
@@banme2784 It's not 10 times and it's not trash. You're right to be skeptical, but there's no need to jump to a worst case assumption on a company that's been around for years. They already have commercial batteries in use by investor-customers like Airbus and AeroVironment.
@@Crunch_dGH My thought too. Even if the energy density falls by half, if the charge time is still so fast, and the discharge current is still pretty strong, the "used up" batteries could be very useful in lots of other applications...
Thank to Munro Asso and Amprius for this fascinating factory tour! This combination of high specific energy and extremely fast charging should enable electric aviation and other applications.
Enovix is also in Fremont, and they have an all silicon anode with no nano wires. They can also fast charge at about the same speed, have better thermal properties, and easier manufacturing and lower cost. They are the battery leader in the US, although they are currently concentrating on batteries for Consumer Electronics, but they also do have a program for EV batteries.
@@proximoAZ both these companies look good, both going giga. if each of them can get product to market both will be succesful. wonder if either will have supply issues.
Of course, just after Sandy provided us with the short trailer for this Amprius video, and showing this, CATL announced a 500Wh/kg battery which they are about to put, or already are, in production. It seems that battery chemistry tech is galloping along now. This is all tremendously exciting stuff.
Fascinating to me, since I have been doing a lot of cell testing of LFP cells for energy storage (mainly to track degradation and thus cycle life). The density they are getting and charge rates are impressive.
@@MunroLiveYeah thanks for the tour of one of naziCalifornias finest battery manufacturers and technologies 😀 👌 Now when are you gonna visit a gravity propulsion lab or a quantum hydrogen fusion reactor lab? The nazis seem to like you, to be sure you'd get a invite from classified aerospace. 😅
Thanks, Sandy. Cool to see 'how' they are doing it. Wish I understood why they think their way is 'the way' to achieve elongated battery power and life. Looks like what we need to assign you to do is assemble a 'battery expert' panel; people who know what's going on and can ELI5 the reasons for moving forward in whatever directions the various manufacturers are moving. Funny, I invested a few dollars in AMPX upon your 'breaking news' segment a month ago. Now I can't wait to learn more about them and the industry in which it operates. Battery potential will lead the way moving forward, for sure. ALSO- right across the street from Tesla's battery plant? WTF? Ha! I gotta think, as 'turn on a dime' as Tesla is when it comes to improving its processes and products, if Amprius has anything of value to offer, Tesla has already found a way to incorporate it. Yes? No?
Using CVD as basically a mechanism of doping is nothing short of absolutely brilliant. The elephant in the room is scaling. The amount of energy and time it will take to scale this would be astronomical.
Didn't even notice though I m going to look back at it. I was looking for familiar territory from when I lived in Willow Glen but Ford's had the Fremont final assembly plant the last time I lived there LOL Having grown up in the Detroit area it was funny to move to Bay Area and see a darn Ford plant.
@@banme2784 still going with whataboutism?....lol....what about the power grid, charging stations, rolling blackouts, burst into flames, running over children......
Amprius is a company that specializes in the development and manufacture of advanced lithium-ion batteries. The company was founded in 2008 as a spin-off from Stanford University, and its technology is based on research into high-capacity silicon nanowire anodes for lithium-ion batteries.
Interesting information. Relevant to anyone considering purchase of the stock. Sandy Munro isn't biased by Wall Street shenanigans. An engineer's perspective.
Thanks for showing us the future! I'd said to many people in the past that the e-mobility is right at the beginning. The battery-story is starting right now and the end you can't imagine. Nice to see this post which come from the future, doesn't it? Gratings from Germany!
You got me on that. Didn't know that Amprius is literally right next to Tesla in Fremont. Very fascinating on the raw talent we have in the US and you guys are shining a light on this. I've learned so much from Munro Live and thanks for this. Absolutely incredible.
That was deceiving. The plant is much further away. There are two smaller Tesla sites near Amprius. The Tesla Fremont factory is almost three times closer to Enovix, but whatever makes for a good story 🤷♂️
As long as you can keep it cool in a big pack, one pouch or a full pack wouldn't make a difference. As long as you can provide the power to charge all the pouches at the same time though!
I was able to track down an article about their independent testing, it’s between 200-1200 cycles depending on manufacturing defects, graphite batteries are 500-1000 cycles but these batteries have between 2-3 times the energy density! They are focusing on the aviation industry because energy density is far more important than longevity for them, and these batteries are good for a much wider range of temperatures. they can use that money to research ways to make it have higher cycle life so it can eventually be good enough for electric cars.
yea we have seen this many many many times now, they chasing dogs. useless tech nobody needs. whats needed is isnane amounts, thats it. every battery technology is good enough, we dont need more capacity or faster charging, we simply need more batteries, insanely more, like ,insanely squared
If they can control the cooling, it should be just as long as other comparable batteries. Though I wonder if they have to deal with any expansion issues when the battery charges and discharges.
That charging speed was almost as quick as filling up an ICE vehicle. Bring this to scale and say good-by to long wait times to charge your EV. Very impressive. Thanks, Munro!
It's almost hard to imagine. You'll need some serious infrastructure for that kinda power, but it's only really needed off highways so I could see it happening
We are living in a great time to be alive ! I was born in 1948, a few months after Bell Labs reported their invention of the point-contact transistor, & I grew up in a small agricultural town living on my parents' apple & pear orchard. As a prepubescent boy, I brought 1930s-vintage vacuum-tube radios home from the local garbage dump {long before they acquired barbed-wire fences & the name "landfill"} & got them running again. That was the start of my electronics career. A high-school buddy & I bought our first transistors {2N107s & 2N170s} in 1963 by very slow mail order from Allied Radio in NYC to build our first TRF quasi-crystal-set battery-powered radios. A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away ! Now retired, I have my name etched into circuit boards residing in pressure cases on the floor of both the Atlantic & Pacific Oceans measuring deep-ocean water pressure, as well as in magnetometer instruments in a now-defunct small Canadian science satellite in a polar orbit around the Earth. What a ride ! Thank you, Munro & Associates, for a wonderful walk-through of a bleeding edge American battery plant. More, please, I beg you !
Sandy. As a newbie a bit of a lead in to know what we are looking at and why would have been helpful. Had to read the comments to understand what is going on. But thanks!
why do people have 0 clue about anything and think this is something, holy crap, unbelievable. this is nothing, at all. meaningless tech that serves nothing. this addresses nothing.
Even if the packs are initially more expensive, they will still work for aviation as their gravimetric densities are industry leading. There were questions I would have asked: Is this LFP? Or what chemistry. Will standard BMS work with these cell? Beyond the prototype assembly line, what is the timeline to scale? Are they working with any partners?
this aint leading in anything sorry, and the manufacturing is the old way, absolutely terrible, impossible to compete or scale to anything meaningfull. its the same old , same old. nothing to see here. this aint good enough for aviation, just another nothingburger. you can make some lucids and some eqs luxury cars with this. if at all, we dont know the important metrics. nothing meaningful.
@@JohnSmith-pn2vl That line was clearly a beta prototype. When Sandy first met with them, it was all theoretical, now they have shown and end to end beta. They can solve the manufacturing at volume by partnering. At 450 Wh/kg they have something better than what we have today. Elon Musk estimated about 300 to 350 Wh/kg needed for aviation.
Nano wire sponge cool❤. Possibilities are only limited by imagination, definitely a takeover target for use in Optimus and long range EVs(with improvement in vibration resistance and high capacity charging). Cooling could be novel too, Imagine dunking the nano wires sponge, in flood filled coolant trays, on demand. Just some thoughts.... Special thanks to Sandy and Cory for bringing this exclusive content👍👍.
Yep, 0..80% SoC at 10C in 6 minutes flat is astounding for a cell with 370Wh/kg energy density. CVD is expensive but if the oven process to grow nanowire layers can scale economically then this should be revolutionary.
There's an Amprius PDF presentation that they gave to NASA. The battery technology has very high density, almost twice that of current carbon anodes, and a very fast charge time. This was demonstrated in the video. But the number of charge cycles is troubling. From about 80 to 200 cycles. Amprius batteries with significantly less capacity reach almost 600 cycles. Tesla lithium bats provide about 1,500 cycles. You may notice that this significant parameter of a rechargeable battery, cycle count, was not discussed at all. And Sandy didn't ask.
However, unless you believe it can be done, no one will even try. We software engineers always joked; when we think we are 90% done we really have 90% remaining.
@@frankhage1734 You're right, though: thinking you're almost there provides a huge amount of motivation to push through that stubborn "last ten percent". We see this in the rocket industry all the time.
Great tour and video. These must be very small cells if 10C is 27A. This is why the SOC% goes up so fast. Rough estimates (if my math is right): if we estimate that 0-80% was 6 minutes @27A (10C), this calculates to about a 3.3Ah cell. Just for reference, the Mustang Mach-E cells from previous videos are about 70Ah each...so 20x bigger.
I hope with Canada getting the China made Model Y LR with the lower cost battery packs that Munro''s team gets one in for a full review and rip it apart for the deep dive examination. Maybe a Model Y have a car insurance company sponsor the series. Munro Live has a good size audience that should appeal to many companies. Back in the early 2000's I worked for TechTV Television Network and we has small audience, but highly tech nerd focused, which certain companies struggled to reach, thus TechTV was like gold to these companies. I believe Munro Live has a unique audience and will likely be reaching people that traditional channels or media do not normally reach. I hope your team is able to get packages put together to bring on more sponsors so we can get more content. Keep up the great work.
How fast does the anode go through the reel to reel process since vapour deposition is super super slow? How many years away are they from moving to production? I imagine they invited Sandy to get interest, to get money for scale up or further development. How much will they cost relative to current cells. ....Presumably a lot more expensive and at the start they'll just be for niche applications.
As a material's chemist, I was left wishing for someone a bit more familiar with the topic to do the interviews and make more questions. The setup seems quite interesting, but they didn't give a lot of details (I can understand why, trade secrets and so on).
OMG! Just checked their website. Seems legit. Thank you for always bringing interesting info to the masses. Tesla should buy them out before they go public.
Tesla definitely shouldn't buy them out, look at Maxwell, ultra capacitor knowledge buried.. Elon has a habit of pricing out the competition, he's becoming a bit of an Edison..
it's funny that we continue to talk about not wanting to go to 100% charge so we're left with a usable of 80-90%. Why isn't it reframed to 100% with a built-in buffer of x%. Would seem to simplify the understanding for more people. Charging apps would be written to go the non buffer 100% state.
Someone has to pick upper and lower limits somewhere, to balance expectations (lifespan, performance, safety) … a product being more dummy proof also means trading off more range, weight, performance, cost, charging time etc
The big limit to traditional batteries charging time is heat build up. Graphine allows electrons to pass through unimpeded reducing friction between the electron atoms
I‘ve known of the Amprius technology for some years through my work in the battery industry. I wonder what the cycle life with such fast charging is now for them?
Even if they're initially expensive, I doubt they're too expensive for the supercar and hypercar markets. A manufacturer that wants to keep the car light would be interested for sure.
I think people miss how big a gain the Amprius battery is to the industry, all they see is a battery that is twice the price. Meanwhile, an engineer sees a battery that is the same price and capacity as LFP solutions that is "half the weight".
Great video, Thank You! Sounds like the GOOD is high power density and fast charging time, the BAD is high cost and low cycle life. Could be a good fit for aircrafts, if the batteries are easily swappable like NIO in the auto industry?
@@michael.sierra 200 makes it disposable, only to be used for military and car racing. 1200, that is workable if the price is fair or the use is "supercar". 1200 for electric planes that do 8 short flight per 24 hours... Not going to cut it, unless everyone wants hefty "CO2 tax" on their tickets for the disposal of the batteries.
