My website: www.jordanbcooper.com Patreon: / justandsinner This video addresses Christian mysticism and its relationship to both Martin Luther and the later Lutheran tradition.
That's a good book, I've read that one myself. It should be a must read for any serious Lutheran teacher. It's particularly an antidote to the notion that there is a radical and inevitable split between orthodoxy and pietism.
Great explanation. What attracted to LUTHER was theology of the cross. Mysticism of the cross means God is hidden in the very place many mystics would last think of God being hidden. At the heart of the real world God hides Himself. Having some amazing sense of God's presence where I feel it is not the most important thing, but the reality of God really meeting me on the cross; me sharing in the cross and rising with Christ into new life-whether i feel it or not.
Luther was a child of his age too. So are we. The objective word of God as you said which Luther clung to, and who taught us to do the same, was where his main focus was on.
thank you for this, I find the war on "mysticism" has caused more problems than good. Yes I think a reliance on experiences is dangerous but I also think neglecting the relational unity we have with God is possibly worse. We then get a hollow faith that is at risk of giving a head full of knowledge but an empty heart. The beginning of wisdom is fear of the Lord, a deep reverence that comes from beholding the glory of the Lord (1 Cor. 3:18) which is only possible because the death and resurrection has made us righteous in the eyes of the Lord and we can fully come into his presence in a way that the Israelites in Leviticus could not without purifying themselves. I believe the entire Bible conveys a loving God desiring intimacy with his creation and everything boils down to relationship. I obey his commandments because I love him, I repent because I love him, I pray because I love him, and all of this is participation in the relationship through obedience. God is love, love transforms, love conveys Gods power and glory. I pray for those that don't see the love of God and feel disconnected from him. We are in fact, not connected but within God, warmly and lovingly. Amen
Im lutheran, I was baptised when I was a baby and like that but last year I had an experience with Christ, I was not in the church nor in a concert or in a place with some stimulation and like that, I was in my room and well I felt very bad, like with alot of conviction and well I felt condemned and I started to cry like a baby and I asked God for forgiveness and I asked Him to help me and well I felt a beautiful intense peace and my tears of sadness became tears of joy and I felt an intense love and joy and I felt pure and I felt full, I wasnt empty inside, I felt differemt and well since that day God started changing me like so incredible and the journey hasnt been easy but God is always mercifull. Yes it is true that word and sacraments are objective and thats where Christ has an encounter with us physically but theres a supernatural component that I think is undervalue in the lutheran church. Im still a lutheran but i dont agree with cessationism and with this view of just the sacraments and your interior means nothing. God really works on us and you can have River of living water flowing through you. Since that day I became hungry for the word of God and I started to feel real love and mercy for others and the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Let us not be ashamed of the spiritual transformation that God does in us because it is real🙌🏻💙🍃
The term "cessationism" is used in the controversy over whether Christians should expect to speak in tongues today. Or, there's the question: Should we expect that we'll still do the extreme "rise and walk!" kind of healing miracles that we read about in the age of the apostles? Those who believe that the answer is "no" are called cessationists. But, from what you described, it sounds to me like you matured in your faith. You'll find people who have had that kind of experience in every generation of Christians, and all across the world. Good Lutherans will help each other to stay rooted in Scripture in times like that. It's important to guard against the devil, who tries to get people to chase after their own feelings (i.e. our passions and desires), departing from simple faith in the clear teachings of God's Word. But, yeah... The gift of maturing in the faith... I think every true Christian would agree that that's a good thing. It's why people read the Bible a lot. As Jesus said, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him" (Jn. 14:23).
Update: I started to learn more and more about my lutheran heritage and I was amazed at the profoundity of the sacramental spirituality of the lutheran tradition. Im so full of Joy and peace every time I partake of the Eucharist. It is my favorite part of the divine service. Pray for me because next september I will start seminary at Concordia University Irvine for the cross cultural ministry program. I had the calling of God in my life to be a pastor and since here in Mexico there is not alot of servants I took the risk to chase after this desire that God has put in my heart. I just want to thank dr Jordan Cooper because He was the one that helped me on this Journey. Im very grateful with God because of your wonderful work. God with you pastor!🍃
@@danielfinn9460Speaking in tongues is acceptable when at least one other can understand to interpret. Always ask Yesuah and respect the teachings of Messiah.
@@UCQztlwsK5pV45U8vMtfbWjg Considering the current zeitgeist, insofar as philosophy and theology are concerned, I am curious as to what you think about Jordan Peterson's message?
How about just praying for the infilling of the Holy Spirit? Would that be dismissed as mysticism? "...how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” Luke 11:13
Do you think the lack of a proper understanding of Christian mysticism and a lack of belief in the presence of Christ’s body and blood in the Sacrament and the effects of Baptism are some of the causes of the modern church gravitating toward Gnostic mysticism?
There is absolutely no question that there is a unique interior experience of God in the life of the Christian that is not necessarily attached to the sacraments or an intellectual study or hearing of scripture. The interior experience of God is attested to all throughout scripture; here's a brief sampling of scripture that speaks to this doctrine - John 14:21-23, Gal 2:20, Eph 1:16-21, 3:14-19, Phil 2:12-13, 4:6-7, Col 1:9-12, 3:1-4.
I think you'll find that these experiences are more attached than one might initially think either in the passage or the larger context. For example, the Full Armor passage you referenced includes the Word and Sacrament as the Sword of the Spirit and shoes that are the readiness that is given by the gospel of peace.
@@mikebaker2436 I'm not quoting the full armor passage. There's no way around it. The typical evangelical desire of turning this faith into a dead experience of intellect is an unbiblical fool's errand. The John 14 passage is utterly smoking gun and so are Paul's petitions that Christians would experience God inwardly. I'm not saying we throw out sound doctrine, philosophy or the intellect. I'm simply saying that the bible clearly an undeniably teaches an interior experience of God in addition to everything else it teaches.
@@garinold Again, the dispute is not about the interior experience (which obviously exists) but your claim that it exists totally apart from and without originating in the Word and the sacraments.
It appears the objective imprisons/isolates the self. It perpetuates spiritual authority that hasn't experienced the spirit internally thus is relegated to the pure materialistic objective reality/illusion.
Dr. Cooper, your return to the subject of philosophy was a really unexpected and appreciated surprise in this video! I've heard similar denunciations of modern philosophy elsewhere, and vaguely familiar with the fact that Roman Catholic seminaries tend to teach their students philosophy before they get to theology, but having gone to an Evangelical seminary myself, I never got taught a line of philosophy in my entire life. As the importance of filling in that blank sets in for me, where would you recommend I turn first in order to learn some of these basics? Should I try and read some of the Great Western thinkers in chronological order? Is there a list or collection you might recommend?
The external means of grace appears wholly contradictory to the kingdom of heaven is within you. Where else is one to comprehend anything if not within ones self?
We Lutherans also fail to appreciate the influences of William of Ockham and Thomas Aquinas on historical Lutheran thought. The philosophy of Lutheranism was in many ways a (clumsy) synthesis of the best of the two schools. From my point of view, modern Lutherans anachronistically gravitate to the hard nominalism that Ockhamist thought eventually morphed into and read that modern nominalism into the historical texts as if they imply arguments and categories that they were not dealing with. So when Luther is drawing on Ockhamistic pessimism to break down his opponents' over-inflated view of man's capabilities or over-wrought philosophical systems that were purely hypothetical, these things were done to save the truth in those systems not throw the baby out with the bath water.
Here is a common example all Lutherans can grasp regarding how the tone that we read into the literal text infuses it with modern meaning that isn't there in favor of nominalism or even reductionism: When we read aloud this passage from the small catchecism... "Fasting and bodily preparation is, indeed, a fine outward training; but he is truly worthy and well prepared who has faith in these words: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins." ...our tone on "is, indeed, a fine outward training" often comes off as a sarcastic "is all well and good" as if to assume Luther means here that fasting and bodily discipline is of no use, no profit, and maybe even counter productive. So our takeaway is not to fast, not to live disciplined lives, and to shun everything that isn't of the worship service in its most narrow sense...all erroneously in the name of rejecting Pietism. This obviously isn't the position of what Scripture, Luther, and our Confessions actually say on the subject of fasting (it even glosses over what *indeed* means in the above passage)... but what we put into practice is the hyper nominalist position that if it isn't the highest good then it must be of no good at all and has no relationship with things that aren't particular to it specifically. That isn't Lutheran. That is our own opinion dressed up in Lutheranish clothing.
@@Habackuk24 Short answer is: I don't know other than to direct you to the philosophical history that provides the context for Lutheranism's birth and codification. RU-vid has some great lectures onclassical and medieval philosophy. Long Answer: There was a 3-4 century philosophical discussion in the middle ages about the relationship between faith (revelation & church authority) and reason (natural knowledge & logic). At the time, no one doubted both were from God. The questions were more like "What has primacy?" "What is the proper blend of the two?" "How should both be best used?" "How does one interact with the other?" Within the scholastics, you had a spectrum of thought on this idea from the logistican side which favored reason (Abelard, Wycliffe, Berengar) and obscurantists who were very skeptical of our own reason (Duns Scotus, Bernard, Ockham). Kind of in the middle you have more synthesist positions that tried to moderate the two (Aquinas, Landfranc, Anselm). Please understand this is a gross oversimplification. By the time of the Reformation, these schools of philosophical thought had kind of settled geographically with the logicians in Western Europe & England while obscurantist thought had really flowered in the German mystic traditions. Understanding this history suddenly makes sense of where the humanist reformed traditions were based and why the Lutheran traditions argued in the way they did. You can kind of see the reformers taking positions close but on either side of Aquinas' via media while still checking the more extreme philosophies of the day. Study of these philosophical roots really helps to make sense of what Lutheran Scholastics did with what they were handed by Luther, Melanchthon, and the Formula of Concord (from a systematic point of view, Luther was hardly a coherent philosopher... in many ways doing what Scotus had done by kicking sand into everyone's systems but not getting around to codifying a cogent alternative.) Once you study medieval philosophy a bit, the modern stuff we try to cram becomes really obvious. I had the real privelage of watching Dr. Kolb (probably the greatest living Luther authority) irenicly dismantle Kierkegaard's existentialist Luther during a symposium Q&A.
@@mikebaker2436 , thanks that was helpful. I guess there is no better way than to study the primary sources, although I usually hope for a short cut. :)
One of the most obvious features of Calvinism, is its rejection of (what it calls) mysticism. (Though Calvin does mention Bernard of Clairvaux with respect, which is surprising in some respects.) What exactly is being rejected, is not clear. It is curious that Lutheranism is more friendly to such things.
I grew up in a Lutheran church and was educated in Lutheran schools but I never ever have been taught anything about mysticism. Seeking out Yesuah the truth is a call for all that follows the way, no? Messiah never taught religion but to caryy out the law, correct? Yesuah taught monist philosophy 😊
I feel like I have mystical experiences like twice a season. I usually end up uncontrollably tearing up for like 20 minutes--but im not in the least bit sad. Its like pure awe. Its usually while looking out a window, oddly, or being really still on a clear day. Its always centered on The Father ultimately, but in a sort of ineffable way. Kinda feels like suddenly I become aware of the presence of God, like I forgot He's there and then suddenly it dawns on me again. I have to admit, I dont really understand the Son on most days. Lately its been hitting me more, and oddly because ive been listening to Calvinists. Super weird. I really wish your typical Protestant traditions made more room for the mystical. We've become so, shall we say... Positivistic and modern, even in the conservative wings. God is really weird. Christ is weirder. And thats immensely good thing. I feel like we should *never* take the wildness away from our Lord.
I enjoyed reading your perspective and can somewhat relate to the overwhelming moments that come without notice…through those moments, it is like a fleeting sense of the Lord himself, and my heart is overtaken, and my mind cannot process Him or who He is while simultaneously realizing with great comfort from Him that He is beyond my comprehension. No idea if this makes sense. I don’t know how to accurately describe it. Crying in joy and wonder and a bit of fear, but then that fear assuaged by believing and knowing in my heart-not my mind-that He is the beginning and end of all things known and unknown, seen and unseen. The Great I Am. Truly awesome.
@@kgebhardt1187 yeah man If I could stop shutting that off when it happens I might actually live by faith. Idk if it's like a human thing to need to put that in the cabinet and continue on your well-ordered, left-brain forward day or if that's a personal sin of mine--maybe both. I want to let that encounter change me, but I also seem to want to like, master it and make it serve my purposes--typical son of Adam bullshit. I guess I pray that for the both of us, God will not cease to tackle the door of our hearts down even if we keep shutting it.
@@IsoMorphix I will pray for that also. You have given me some things to consider. I have felt that when I try to understand more deeply, I get in my own way, and ultimately am being offensive to God in how I’m trying to understand and sinning without meaning to, and I can’t explain it, but I get a sense of reverence sometimes in those moments and pray for forgiveness and also my seemingly endless curiosity. Lately I’ve thought that it does come from my intellectual pride but also my imagination. Your perspective humbled me because I think sometimes I do try to understand for my own selfishness, which is so wrong, but my sinful nature is tricky like that. Will pray for you tonight as well as myself that He will give us wisdom or a heart to submit, or better yet, that His will be done in our hearts. Thank you for this exchange. May the Lord bless you and draw you nearer
Now I understand why the LCMS is so dead. I have never felt so much like a church had nothing to it but an intellectual assent outside of the Lutheran church I attended for a while. I find the LCMS right on a lot of scriptural issues, but I'd rather go to a somewhat squirrely nondenom that has fairly good non-Calvinistic exegetical treatment of scripture and where I meet a lot of sincere and faithful Christians (and I mean faithful as in full of faith) than one where belief has become mechanized and depersonalized to such a degree. The Calvinists have gone hard toward a form of classical education, but they also end in the wrong place. :(
Hope you have found some answers. I “ convertedto orthodox Christianity years ago for just this reason. You have to go to the Orthodox Church for the answers because the West essentially took a turn with Augustine and there was too much theology built off his misunderstanding and bad Latin translations. Go back to the patristics and rebuild from there. Byzantium spent 1,000 years reconciling classical thought and biblical revelation. It is simple and elegant and yet vastly nuanced and flexible. There is no reason to reinvent the wheel they created. IMO. Good luck with it all. God’s speed.”
Classical thought in the West stems from the Greeks - where we read the concept of 'essence'. I don't reject the Union because I reject the concept of essence but because it's just plain creepy not to mention that it is not an article of faith , thank God.
Reacting to the death of metaphysics with a retreat into archaic modes of thinking is not the answer. Demythologizing started with Feuerbach, not postmodernism. Straw manning the unresolved modernist challenge gets us nowhere. Accept the truths revealed in creation -- Christ doesn't only live in spite of them, he lives in them.
"If anyone should still believe in the stupid ten commandments let him chase himself to the Jews", said Martin Luther. I think I'll pass on that kind of mysticism.
