I've been so anxious to hear his thoughts. He is analytical and fair in his assessments. I appreciate that he doesn't avoid the personal expression while staying level headed and clear minded. He's my favorite! Excited to watch him over the next season and come back with a vengeance. Also, Rory, these post-interviews are EVERYTHING! thank you!! You are so good at just BEING with each person. You really shine in this format. Well done.
If the order of the events would have been different there would have been different persons in the Top 10. That says it all - when the order of events are so crucial there is something wrong with the format.
@Raileigh Greene no the problem is that when the difference in points between 2 position changes from 1 point to 10 points per event. A single win or lose can swing you from top to bottom. It's the only reason Noah Olsen was so close to Fraser even when Fraser had 6 event wins. Olsen's overall positions kept him in first until day 3 which made absolutely no sense when he had a worse average and only a single event win.
But that would be favoring other athletes strengths. I’m not saying I agree or disagree with this format, but, arguing “the order of events” is a weak argument. “Prepared for the unknown and unknowable” right? The Games is a “Test” not another “Training day.” If you have a hole in your game, it’s less forgiving with this format. Which I’m not totally against. But I do feel for great athletes like Fikowski and Vellner getting cut pretty early on. Idk. Chelsey Grigsby once said to me “It sucks to suck. Get better.”
@@deanathan "Weak argument"...that's just...like...your opinion maaan (to quote the dude). You obviously totally missed the context in which it was said.
Sejdr look. I’m not here to argue with anyone. U typed ur opinion and I typed mine. The order of the workouts doesn’t matter. In competition, you play the game you need to play or you lose. The “best” at that time will always come out on top.
Pat Vellner said it right. Rich Froning would have been cut every year in this format but isn't he the fittest in history. We have to many people saying they need to get better but they literally just cut most of the people that made top in the world and demolished in all the sanctionals. Overall this test still does find the fittest in the world but it does not find the top 10.
D'Andre Ellerbe completely disagree with vellner. CrossFit is about not having any weaknesses. This new format penalizes guys with weaknesses. Guys who are well rounded make it to top 10. Hence Fraser, BKG, Olsen, Toomey, davidsdottir, heppner, panchik are still in it. They have shown year after year that finishing top 15 as the worst is the best. Olsen got his first event win this year! But I bet u don’t see too many 30th-40th finishes the past 6 years he’s competed.
@@ozenig Everyone has weaknesses. Crossfit isn't about not having weakness. It's about trying to make weakness your strengths. So, Its in ever evolving concept. I think personally the cuts were too early but you are going to have that problem trying something new. I believe the cut system is more for making it easier to watch for the casual fan. Its easier to keep up with 10 men and 10 women on individuals. I think they might continue with the cut system but I think it's modified next year because it does have an rng feel to it. You will always have that issues. Even in the regionals, if the events line up in your favor then you have a chance of making the games much easier. Going back to my original point, it's about making it easier to follow for casual fans. Hardcore fans will always watch Crossfit. They may not like how certain things are ran but they will still watch it.
@@ozenig What competition and events you were watching? "This new format penalizes guys with weaknesses" - from the new selected top 10, several on the women side couldn't even clean the starting weight of the event. Half of them dropped out already after second increase. We had only two athletes who made it beyond +230 lb; meaning eight of the contenders were out after only three weight increases. Same for men in event 7 of the split triplet - three of them didn't even make the cap time. Fraser didn't have any competition on that - he could have slept for 1 minute and still won. The new format brings too much luck factor in play when deciding those top 10 who will compete in the remaining 6 events. Switch the places of Split Triplet and Swim Paddle with Ruck and Sprint and you would have seen totally different top 10 - that simply shows how skewed the system was this year.
Mikko Järveläinen the goal of CrossFit games is to find the fittest not the top 10 Fittest. Name the top 10 from the past 3 years. I bet it is hard to name after the top 3. If programming dictates how good you can do at the games, then you have to many holes. That’s why Fraser and toomey win consistently. Look at panchik, BKG, Holtr. Programming does not matter and order of events don’t matter to them. Every athlete should strive to train like this instead of complaining that it is not fair. The only unfair situation is cutting the field to 10 after only one event on Saturday. Should have kept the top 20 all day. Games were more exciting for me this year. Didn’t have to fast forward through the first 3 heats
Patrick is a great communicator...He really nailed it in describing the shortcomings of the new games format...Excellent interview with a first-class Crossfit competitor!
“Having depth in the field is something that makes it interesting.” So true. I don’t do CrossFit, but I follow the games due to the great marketing they did with those documentaries; I’ve spend more time watching your interviews than games coverage after the hunger games cuts this year and I think that says a lot. The individual athletes are what make these games exciting, not the sport in and of itself.
Great interview! Velvet nailed it with regards to the format, programming, and what we are left with for today. The field for the last day does not have the depth it should!! Nice job Rory and Pat!
Re cuts: It's not so much about us not seeing our favs but that there are some more rounded athletes (constantly varied) that got cut early because the early programming didn't play to their particular strengths. So then do we really have a true representation of the Fittest on Earth or are left with the top 10 who were good at running in the first few events. Haley (as happy as I am that she's there) couldn't do the first clean. Does she deserve to be there on the last day then? Crazy heavy lifting is a big part of Crossfit. She is still too young to be that strong. Brooke would have crushed it. That line infraction was bull!!! How close was it to those things and then you want them to go hard around them?? BAD obstacle course planning.
brooke wasn't the only one who suffered a penalty for stepping over the line. several athletes did. that's just a rule of the sport - you break a rule, you get a penalty. it's the same in every sport. was the penalty really harsh? yeah, maybe, but that's a different discussion. anna fragkou really struggled on the swim/paddle event - do you think she deserved to be in the top 10 on the last day?
Great interview. New subscriber, because of the great interviews. Rory giving us a look into Crossfit that we get no where else. Pat Vellner, can't say enough about this guy, great feedback. Definitely hasn't hit his prime yet.
Really interesting interview and some very good points made by Pat which I completely agree with. For me you cannot have a competition which is trying to find the fittest overall athletes and then have a cut after only a few events which are/can be more suited to certain athletes and abilities. There would have to be at least one event testing each ability before any cut, otherwise it comes across as more of an entertainment event rather than a sport finding the fittest athlete. It's probably a bad comparison, but at first thought it feels like the new system is akin to cutting athletes in the decathlon after the hurdles and long jump event leaving the strong throwers no chance of a medal. Having said that, I appreciate the efforts to try and keep improving the championship, even if I am not a fan of the new system
1) Tia and Matt still in the same place as years past and they only touched one barbell before the cut to 10 soooooo...... 2) Thank you for the interview Pat! You're still the man!
The games sucked because Glassman and co. do not care about the fans. We are CrossFit, we deserve to see all athletes who make it to the games compete all weekend. They dedicate an entire year of their life and many dedicate years of their lives to entertain and to compete with the best in the world. The games was a disservice to the athletes and fans. Vellner is spot on.
Yeah people work for 4 years to go to the Olympics and are out in a single event. Fraser is still the champ how ever you look at it so it really looks like to me that how ever you shake it if your not well rounded it’s your fault. Just because you think you deserve it makes more of a case of why you don’t.
This is no longer a test to find the fittest but rather a gamble of what comes when (face palm)... way to F this up, Crossfit. Rory, this content is awesome! You're talking about real shit with people we, the fans, love. Well done.
Those who run CrossFit, remember, this is a spectator sport. In retail business, there is an adage that the customer is always right. People have their favorite athletes and the more you cut during an event like this, the fewer there are to cheer. Think about it.
The fact that in the "top ten" there were athletes who couldn't make the first Clean weight on the ladder or could barely swim..., it should have been 20 athletes for day 3 and then the top 10 for the final day, it was like a cast of thousands wacky races for the first 2 days and then the same 10 dudes competing for the last 2 days...
Althugh I agree with Pat that specially the sprint was quite specialist, in my opinion the workouts were still diverse enough to allow athletes that are consistent to advance (i.e. both Panchik, Fraser, Olsen), instead of favoring athletes that swing big for certain modalities (i.e. Brent, Hogberg) and bomb in order. In past editions athletes that collected event wins ended up in the podium, despite not having great overall finishes thoughou the field. I think that the rule of crossfit has always been to search for the best athlete accross all fields and the new format does it better than the previous ones, where a couple of good events might get you a podium. Eventualy, although the current formula might not be optimal, the sport is so young that testing is necessary. Also, changing the formula is totally crossfit, do not get in a routine, next year might be different. And great content Rory! These questions are very good and I don't see any similar content around, chew it!
We have to face the fact that cutting the field after single workouts does not make sense because if it happens to be a swimming event Fikowski would have finished top 3, if it happens to be an event like Mary, Fikowski has no chance against the smaller athletes, thats simple science. So the solution to this problem is to have 2-3 events and then make the cut. Like this, you get a more even distribution and it allows for some comebacks. Look at Vellner last year, started really bad and still worked himself back to the top. That is not possible anymore with this new format...
Well it´s still cummulative point scoring. A guy like Heppner finished 17th in the sprint event and got top 10. Fikowski has always striked me as the kind of athlete who does NOT excell at typical/classic crossfit workouts. If the games were programmed with only the "girls", hero wods and classic crossfit style workouts, Fikowski would suck. He´s too tall. I do agree that it would make more sense to cut to from 20 to 10 after saturdays workouts, but it´s not like the "sprint" was the ultimate decider. Every workout before the sprint mattered aswel, just not as much in terms of points.
Other than Toomey and Fraser, there are few athletes that have no holes in their fitness programming. So, when you don't put any heavy barbell events then the strength athletes really have little chance.
Olympic games athletes are cut fast but they only do one discipline, say 100m sprint, so it makes sense. CrossFit athletes have such a range that they need a different system to showcase their skill depth and endurance, ultimately finding the fittest and properly ranking the runners up. That's why this 2019 cut system doesn't work for CrossFit. Need to find a middle ground.
Love Velner! If they continue to make more great events like Rogue Invite, the Games will become less important, and we’ll still get to see our favorite athletes compete. Without fans and listening to those fans in symphony with the organizers, it will be replaced. Thanks for posting this, Roy. Wouldn’t be a Games season without you.
Totally agree about his durability comment...surely part of being the fittest is being able to last 4-5 days of competition and come out on top, and not getting the chance to pass athletes that may have come out too hot and burned themselves out seems unfair
We saw exactly that with Will Moorad. He gave absolutely everything he had in the sprint event and it paid off for him by getting him into the top 10 before the cut. In giving everything in that event, he tore his hamstring and was useless in every subsequent event. Couldn't clean. Couldn't overhead squat. Could barely split snatch/jerk. Ultimately, he withdrew from the last event. It was a waste. That 10th position should have gone to Cole Sager who sat in 11th.
Elimination and thinning out the herd should have been limited to sanctionals and opens..once in games, let an athelete express his/her fitness... Somebody make Glassman go away from CrossFit....may be Rogue can start their own games.....also if not for rogue, then commentary of events would have been shit... Rogue is the reason we are enjoying the games....
I just found CrossFit 6 months ago. I’ve watched the 2013 to 2019 games on RU-vid. I’m 50 and definitely not super fit. As a spectator to this unusual sport, I just love to watch all of the levels of athletes compete. I have gone back and watched how Tia, Matt and all of the other extremely fit people, have grown over the years. Watching the games has been very inspiring for me to get involved with the community. This year was deflating for me to watch. The moral of the athletes seemed to be way down. It was honestly very boring. I don’t think it’s correct to judge an athletes fitness without also testing their stamina. This year, with the early cuts , I think it weeded out some of those athletes who have the stamina to compete for so many days in a row and rise to the top. This is what I have always found to be so compelling as I watched the games. For me it’s amazing how much stamina they have!
Great interview Rory. Thanks for sharing your opinion Patty V. It’s been an entertaining games weekend but I think it wasn’t “fair” and may not have been what we (spectators) wanted to see.
Pat was spot on. It is what it is, Change is hard and uncomfortable but I'm Intrested to see what the altheltes will bring next year with the new format.
I absolutely agree that the cuts were too aggressive and early and that it all depends on the order of events, BUT I think the advantage of a system like that means that everyone is fighting for their lives every event and I think that gives some of the athletes who don’t expect to finish high, manage to fight a little harder to survive each cut. I think that makes a difference if you fight for survival or “just” for the 20-40th place... So, I think that many of the athletes are actually better than they think they are. And we are just used to seeing our favorites! I hope they keep the cuts, but less aggressive and more balanced events... don’t know what that would look like though...
Great interview. I hope the people planning the CrossFit Games are watching this and taking notes. So many good points made. The field was not deep enough going in to the last two days of competition and I'm not sure if that made it a little boring to watch or if it was the programming. Honestly I'm ready for someone else other than CrossFit HQ to design an event like this.
Well Said Pat; finally someone with the courage to be honest. It doesn’t take a Castro to know the new format doesn’t achieve the true, fair, and considerate end of ranking the fittest.
100% agree that the cut to the final 10 shouldn’t have come until the end of Saturday. Saturday night is already very exciting and that would’ve made it even more epic!
Ahhh I said the SAME thing Pat.... Glassman programmed the Games this year and said he was going to in the interview he did said he would change it up where different people would win!
Cutting 50% of competitors down to the top 10 who get to be on TV all weekend on a *sprint* event opens up completely new career perspectives for professional track & field athletes /s
exactly! you are placing the random selection of events/tests per day and allowing this (by pure chance of sequence) to heavily dictate progression. Now i understand the rebuttal from some is that those who progressed were possibly better overall. But this doesn't negate the fact that random "event sequence/selection" what came day 1 or 2 or 3 - severely impacted overall competitor progression.
A great point my husband made is "Golfers don't get cut in their 18-hole round if they aren't in the top 10 after the first five holes." There is time to play a different hole, and change the course of the game. In all, the layout of the workouts definitely changed the outcome, and did not show the fittest overall from the last year, it showed the 10 fittest of those few workouts. Point blank.
Doing it with the group. I like that one, Pat. That’s what’s missing this year. It’s usually a successful group that makes the Games, grinding it out as individuals, but they’re together. It’s one of the sweet aspects of CrossFit it goes with the athletes cheering each other on. Doesn’t happen much in other sports. That might get lost now.
He hit the nail on the head. All the guys I knew were gone so there was no one to watch you knew Matt was going to win so you root for the rest of the field but they weren't there. What bright spark came up with this rule change?
CrossFit is supposed to be constantly varied right? 1) RUN with rope climbs and light weight 2) Row + weights + handstand walks 3) longer RUN with added weight 4) RUN as fast as you can while pushing a sled 5) Bodyweight lifts for 20 mins 6) RUN as fast as you can Cut after each round. Top 10 based on that.
That´s a bad summary dude. The movements include: Run, legless rope climb, barbell snatch, row, double kettebell push press, handstand walk, weighted run, sledpush, bar muscle ups, handstand pushups, pistol squats, pull ups, sprint. How tf is that not varied enough? These are all classic crossfit movements. If you can´t crack top ten with a combination of those skills/movements, then you´re not top ten at this particular competition.
Niels Harsløf ... the point is in how heavily the cuts were biased towards running ability. Think about it: How many of the events after the cut included running? 0
I guess you have to look at the winners, Tia and matt and they were able to adapt so it's hard to argue. It is much more like anything else where by you have knock outs etc. Would there have been this much said if all the top names had made it through, probably not.
I’d like to see the the top 20 make it to Sunday. Then cut on the first event Sunday morning and have them compete from there. Also, have endurance and strength events evenly distributed throughout the weekend rather than one strength event on Saturday night before a major cut. Small changes that lead to massive results in the right direction.
Perfectly said. The eliminating events were not overall fitness test, they were very cardio biased. so the final 10, whom are great, but could really chillax because at the end of the day, then were the top ten athletes of Crossfit Games 2019. If cuts are here to stay, then I would like to see more overall events. Rich Froning wouldn't have made these cuts. Very strong point!
Great interview. Thank you. Again Pat Vellner is unluckiest Crossfit competitor. Gets 10 second penalty for stepping on a line and then gets a crap lane for sled push. Pat got 35th in sled push. Koski got 37 in other heat in same lane. Women who used that lane got 39th (Beamer) and 23rd (Wells). Too much of a coincidence.
Big question - will Sanctional events start to hold more value/weight in the atheltes minds. Thinking Dubai with larger prize purse and less influence from Greg Glassman/Crossfit.com with regards to programming and structure. I think a long season league table structure across the sanctionals would be more exciting than the one off mass cuts at the games.
Cool thing of open talking to different athletes about 2019 Games. Just my opinion, similar to many already discussed is that giving opportunity to national champions come is great. They know the risk of being cut or not competitive, so they choose to come and participate or not. The cuts are also interesting to push the athletes to good in each and every event, but the early cut to 10 I think was too early and kind of feels that “are the top 10 really top 10”? Would they still be in that position if for example some events were made before? Not saying the guys deserves their spot, but just the feeling as we saw in the end some competition between only 3 or 4 people only. So it gave this feeling. Maybe, if necessary, the top 10 cut to be in a last or two last events. In general was good, but left this void feeling “is that it?”
All I know is this. Me and my fiance were planning on going to the games next year for the first time. But we're not paying all this money on travel and food, to only see 1 or 2 of our favorites compete by Saturday morning. We'll spend it on the Rogue Invitational.
More atleaths sould be able to win an event. I would love to see a comeback story. Cut are not bad but second change is cooler. Sorry for the bad english
These athletes work super hard all year round just to compete for just 4 days. If they made it through to the Games. They deserve to participate during the duration of the Games regardless of their points. Most of them do it for the love of the sport. It must feel terrible to be forced to sit down. This year is what it already is. Hope it doesn't happen next year.
Cant understand why people don’t see that if your an all round athlete then you will be good enough to progress through the competition, If certain athletes are looking forward to there strong points, then its time for them to go back to the drawing board and iron out there weaker points. Most people are getting upset because there favourite got knocked out early, so its a popularity contest as much as anything.
If you want to cut, just do it in a slower pace, so we get to see every athlet a little longer. 2 cuts on Thursday (150-75-50) 1 cut Friday eve (50-40) 1 cut Saturday eve (40-30) Final day no cuts
Increasing the point spread on later events is a well-known trick on TV game shows to keep the suspense going. Which makes the Crossfit Games a cheap made-for-TV game show.
Such a good point about the order of events being a playing factor. Makes it really unfair and honestly a little less entertaining to watch because you know there were athletes already out that would have dominated Saturday afternoon and Sunday’s workouts. I definitely hope it’s not the same next year.
Study the correlation between placing in the 2019 Games and length of the competitor. You will se smaller athlets placing better than taller (heavier) people. 4 of the first 6 events was to a high degree related to body size and ROM. The new games format with cuts needs smart and well structured programming if we want a well designed test of fitness. Earlier when all competitors made all the events the design part was "easier" for Castro. I dont think anyone at CFHQ are pleased with this years outcome with only the shorter players in the final.
The cuts came way too quickly in 2019. You have people from all over that trained really hard all year and paid a lot of money to be there. Give them a chance to experience more of the games. Too much riding on milliseconds of a sprint relay. That being said, the other workouts were great, I can't wait to try them out. Always love watching the games.
The subtext of this excellent interview is that the workouts need to be designed to fit this new structure, which is focused by a series of cuts. In order for the cuts to work as they should, every workout needs to be like the first one: a series of different tests that at day's end measures Crossfit's version of full-body fitness. BTW, Vellner is completely wrong about his assessment of Froning, who more than any other Crossfit athlete was able to adapt himself to the workout at hand.
Cut to 10 should’ve been made at the end of Saturday after the last event. Then we would’ve had a legitimate top 10. Cuts are okay but that last cut to 10 should be made at the end of Day 3 of competition.
According to CrossFit, Fitness is increased work capacity across broad time and modal domains. So it kinda confuses me that at the CrossFit games there can be cuts after one test of fitness... Nevermind favorite athletes or how great it was to see Hunter get cut right away... That was not a test of the fittest according to Glassman's own definition of Fitness.
Not just that, it was a much more legitimate test. The old format meant every athlete did exactly the same workouts at exactly the same time from the Open right through to the last workout of the games. This seems a lot like CrossFit indulging in their vanity and doing things just because they want to
I get Vellner’s points and I do think order matters to a certain degree, but minimal. Yes, in theory, Froning would’ve been cut, but what he’s discounting is the championship mentality. This is something Castro has spoken about in the past. True champions don’t win BECAUSE of programming, they win IN SPITE OF programming. Froning, just like Fraser and Toomey, would not have been cut because he would’ve risen to the occasion. This is the difference between the champions and the rest.
