Thanks Jon for all your efforts. Couple of comments: X4800H and the Cinema 40 sport monolithic amplifier circuits for each channel with custom made power transistors, whilst the tier 2 systems deploy standard off the mill electronics on two standard PCB... Also, the X3800H has a smaller display and a plastic front, not aluminium as the X4800H. Right now in Germany, the X4800H sells at 1249 EUR and the X3800H at 845 EUR whilst Marantz is double the price. A no brainer for budget oriented listeners to chose Denon over Marantz for either tier.
Good points! Situation is similar in US with X4800H at $1300 and X3800H at $900. The X3800H seems the bargain, but I like the better external and internal design of the X4800H. Sound Unified's brand segmentation mystifies me. I have heard the Marantz backlit remotes are compatible out of the box with the Denon receivers. I see the Cinema 40 remote for sale around $120, waiting for a slightly better deal. I just wish any brand supported 48Gb/s HDMI input, or Quick Media Switching (some claim, but are broken). They are all capped at 40Gb/s - fine for consoles, but I know I will need to trade mine for another in 2-3 years to get that last bit out of my PC.
where in germany exactly? here the lowest price for 4800 is 1700€ after NY (I ordered it for 1390€ before NY, but they increased the price in the meantime), while it's 1250€ for 3800 in slovenia.
Thanks for the in depth review. I purchased the x4800h because I use 11 channels and I wanted Dirac Live. It was a replacement for. Pioneer SC-99. I compared the spec and Audio Science Review between the Marantz 40 and Denon and decided the 4800 would more than meet my needs. Your review validates my choice. Although I do think about adding addition external amps it’s probably not needed. I should also add the that Auro-3D auto mix capability is lots of fun
Although I prefer Marantz, the best bang for buck is the Denon X-4800H. Most people would assume its actually the 3800H but the 4800H is simply better in every aspect and a HDMI 2.1 AV-Receiver will stay with you for at least 5 to 10 years. So the extra cost should be spend for a better made and better sounding product. Especially one that is going to be used pretty much every day for an entire decade.
Reality is that an external amp is a great add on for a large room and power hungry speakers. I have both and after adding the 7x130w amp a few years ago could immediately notice the fuller, rounder, and more dynamic sound. It didn’t change the sound signature being precisely as you’re reporting. In my opinion the 4800 might be the best of this series as it provides a quality pre amp section with all available features, and a decent amp for those with smaller rooms. The 3800 is a feature rich receiver however the amp and pre amp/DAC fall short and the C50 is about the same at a hefty price tag. I miss the quality components from past D & M, as already mentioned in previous comments.
After a long decision making process, I got the 4800, over Sony’s 5000 and Yamaha’s A6A. It was hard to decide, and I was almost going for the C40 but after all still prefer Denon’s larger display and classic design. The whole package made it for me. D&M just offer all the features in a line of products that have it all, work great, and produce wonderful sound, translating into a lot of joyful moments, be it watching movies, shows, sports, or listening to music. The best user interface, calibration choices, features and apps, sound formats, amp disconnect, 4 independent subwoofers, and more along with a high quality made in Japan made it for me. Despite the good old issue of Audyssey lowering the bass, I noticed a great improvement in the calibration, everything is just tighter and bass so much more refined. I had the Audyssey app and compared calibration on both receiver and app, and the app produces a better result and allows for important tweaks. The soundstage mainly of the surrounds is vastly improved, overall driving much greater detail and crispiness out of my B&W 700s. Next step will be Dirac. I appreciate your detailed and honest reviews.
I started with a Cinema 50. I was all goo goo over the aesthetics. I also felt like I finally "made it" to Audiophile status now that I had the "Marantz" sound. I could hear an audible difference between the Cinema 50 and the 3800. I ended up returning the Cinema 50, partly due to those sonic differences, and chose to pick up the 4800. Glad I did. The 4800 sounded cleaner and more authoritative than the Cinema 50 in the same room with the same speakers. Would I have upgraded to the Cinema 40? No, I would not have spent the extra money even if I had it. I think the 4800 is the best bang for the buck out of the four receivers. I hereby turn in my Audiophile merit badge. Great review series John. My next step is to add an amplifier so I can leverage the last two channels to max out the processor. I was thinking of picking up a three channel amplifier for the LCR and then letting the 4800 drive the other 8 channels. Think this would take enough stress off the 4800 or should I focus on 5 or more channels to get the best performance from both? Cheers!
Thanks for posting. I am about to pull the trigger on a new AVR and have been deliberating between exactly those two units, the Denon 4800 vs. Marantz Cinema 50 as they are evenly priced. Was already leaning towards the 4800 as it obviously has more power and features on par with the C40 but like you the Marantz brand was drawing me in a bit. I found your comment helpful. Thanks!
I think you made the right choice. The Denon AVR-X4800H is clearly better then the Marantz Cinema 50. Using those external amps for the front speakers should help lighten the load for the receiver. -Jon
@@ripewaveswitched back and forth between the 50 and 40 at Best Buy again, a bit surprised how much better the 40 sounded, 50 sounded very flat. 40 seemed to have a bit more extended highs and clearer vocals.
Hi Jon, what a great comparison - thanks for your effort. I had to sell my 5.0 setup due to re-modelleing our living room. After 10 months with TV sound I can't wait to get a new audio system running. The 4800H seems to be the best option for me to serve me a long time. Starting with a 5.1 and being able to upgrade to a 9.1 Auro 3D setup. I have a question on bi-amping the front speakers when not all channels are needed. Do you have any experience with that? Greetings from Germany.
I feel there are limited use case where bi-amping makes sense. It is a good cost savings option when you don’t want to purchase a new external amp which can sufficiently drive the speakers you have. If you have a spare set of channels on your AVR or an external amp available, then go ahead and bi-amp. You will more power available to drive the speaker without additional cost. I want purchase external amp to bi-amp, I would just get one new amp to handle what the speaker needs. -Jon
Thanks mate.. bloody good review, realy helpfull for me, been looking at all 4 for a while now and this has really helped my budjet orentated mind, chears
So glad that you found this content helpful. I can certainly appreciate being on a budget - these items are nice to have, but not life-essential. So they can be hard to justify. -Jon
I like your conclusions and the series, still between the M40 and the D48 though. The look is just so much cooler. Thanks for the work. I`ll combine any of them with IOTAV7, driving 7 channels externaly
Really good video because why i am more money to expand for same quality products or little bit same output acctually i am using Denon X3800H its really value for money products .
I think the x3800h is an good product which does a good job. Denon changed a lot of tech and then crammed lots of nice things that normally were only available in more expensive products. If you have the extra money then the x4800h along with good speakers would give a very good response. I have a couple of Denon avrs, the x1700h and x3800h. I use the x1700h mostly for music and also some movie as it does a great job for very little money. I use the x3800h for movies only as it is the cheapest way to get full Atmos with an external amp to drive two additional speakers. I had a budget to work with so it fitted my bill. I actually prefer the sound of the x1700h tbh, it has been well tuned by Denon and if you don't want full Atmos, then the x1700h is probably the way to go for music and moves. I wanted to originally but a RZ50 from Onkyo, but the product is riddled with tech issues and reliability issues so it was a no go for me. Glad I went with Denon, never had an issue with them and have been using the x1700h for over a year now and zero issues... touch wood. Hopefully the x3800h will be the same.
I watched your video between 16:30 and 21:00 several times and listened carefully...: So acc. to 16:46, 18:20, 20:13 there is hardly any difference in 2-channel mode at low to medium volumes between internal and external amp usage, the difference is only subtle even for the 3800 acc. to 18:52. Although, yes, you can hear little difference acc. to 18:36. On the other hand, the difference between the devices in terms of richness and spaciousness ARE significant (10:13), as we know from the video PART 2 tests where you said one can hear the 3800 & C50 are audibly lacking something in richness and spaciousness. So what I take from this is that the difference between the devices (like 3800 vs. C40) is almost completely due to the processing & DAC & Preamp, i.e. due to the signal paths OTHER than the final power amp stage! This is an import CONCLUSION for me(!), because it means: When I have bought e.g. the 3800 and I want to improve sound quality in terms of richness and spaciousness, I won't win hardly anything by adding an external amp!! Instead, to have a significant audible effect I should better replace the entire device itself (e.g. replace the 3800 by the 4800) and NOT buy an external amp. So investing in an external amp for the sake of sound quality at low to medium volumes is the wrong way to go, unless you already have the "toppest notch" AV receiver that cannot be upgraded anymore for a better one. Good to know, because before your video I was thinking of adding an external amp to the 3800, but now I know I better get a 4800 instead and sell the 3800, which gives me a better overall sound improvement for less investment.
Yamaha is still a good choice. Sound a little better then the Denon 4800. I haven’t tested the Integra yet - looking forward to seeing how it compares. -Jon
Thank Mr.Jhon I have lot of confusion in choose which model between Marantz 40 or Dennon x4700h. After saw your in depth video a lot of information and clear technical input give me best one. I choose Dennon x4800h. Ones again thank to you for making such videos.
Nice review. I'm little confused that there is no difference between Denon vs Marantz which has famous HDAM modules ? Also that there is economic reason to go for C40 vs x3800 (wow) that's interesting conclusion.
Jon, First, let me compliment you on your presentations. Your in-depth evaluations are all greatly appreciated. However, I might take exception with you on a couple of things. First, the feel of the knobs. Why is that so important? I personally don't use the knobs but rarely. That's why we have a remote. Secondly, your evaluation of the way each unit sounds is totally subjective and I think that you should emphasize that. It would really be great if you had an audio spectrum analyzer to give an objective comparison. I offer my opinions not as criticism but as information. Thanks again for all your great evaluations.
Fair feedback. Knobs - you are right. We use remotes most of the times, so it is a minor point but suggests a higher quality and attention to detail. On occasion I do reach for the physical knob, so I thought it was worthwhile to point out that the knobs are better on the X4800H - for those who care. Yes - my sound quality is subjective. I do have the capability to measure with REW and a calibrated UMIK-1 microphone. I can work towards that. Good suggestion. Thanks for that constructive feedback. Jon
In Jon's defense, I have listened to the other video in this series where he originally shows the graph of where he places each receiver in terms of rich/spacious sound and in that video he does explicitly state his perception of the sounds are his opinions
I think when you use an external amp for 2 channel listening its sounds bigger and fuller maybe richer. It may only be a 10-15 percent difference but it really makes the Marantz Cinema 50 sing. Maybe I need to plug all the speakers (5.1) back in to the Cinema 50, run calibration then then listen again. Maybe its just bias because I have the amplifiers. The receiver runs cool with external amps though. I think this is a highly interesting topic in regards to the use of external amplification.
This series honestly was amazing. I appreciated every comment. It makes a decision very difficult. One thing bugging me a bit is , is the new Pioneer Elite a better pick? It has a 1095 w power spec. While none of these receivers tested even come close to that. I just picked the 3800 to use as mostly an amp for only the rear speakers with the front speakers getting power from a 5 channel amp. I finally have enough $$ to do this, maybe it won’t work out. I’ve had a Pioneer Elite SC 77 for nearly 11 years. It has some issues, one is that it’s the worst room correction receiver of all my Pioneer Elite receivers. 45tx, 5Xtx?, and the SC05 and Sc07 which the sc07, I consider the best receiver I’ve ever had. I got a new Rotel and 3800 coming tomorrow and I’ll let you know if I think it’s better. I’m gonna be so disappointed if it’s not better. I feel like my original 45tx would correct the room and rock the house way better than the sc77. No doubt I miss my SC 07. Hopefully I can hear the difference.
I hope you find the Rotel to live up to your expectations. I haven’t heard anything from them yet so I will await your feedback once you have it operational. I have a Sony AV Processor from 1998 that still holds up to and still beat many of the latest models. Sounds similar to the issue you are having. Once you have enjoyed a great processor it’s heard to take a step backwards. -Jon
@@ripewave yeah that 45 tx, I did a huge number of experiments with it on AVSforum. Pioneer replaced it once for me. I think I got it in 2002 so sounds like your Sony. I thought the SC 07 was amazing. Which I got in like 2008 or 2009 heavily discounted because of the economy. These new prices are hard to take.
Hi Jon, thanks for your comparison very rich in information. Concerning the lower priced AVR, you give a little preference for the Marantz Cinema 50. I've learned in forums that the Cinema 50 give a Hi-Fi signature that justifies the price 30% higher. Have you heard this difference? Is it significant for Hi-Fi and Home cinema listening? Thanks again!
I wouldn’t select the Marantz Cinema 50 over the Denon AVR-X3800H for the slight difference in sound quality. Good room calibration will make that difference even less. If you prefer the look of the Marantz over Denon then that is a better means to justify or not justify the difference in price -Jon
@@ripewavethanks, I just posted the same question above, aesthetics don't matter to me, if there's not much audio quality difference then I will go for Denon x3800h. Thanks.
The Cinema 40 looks taller than the 4800. When the lids are off they look identical. Is there any difference internally that we cannot see that makes the Cinema 40 have a bigger chassis?
You are correct the Cinema 40 is taller (7.3 Vs 6.25 inch). I did not see any reason for the taller chassis. It appears to be cosmetic only - possibly some thermal advantage. -Jon
Great video Jon! Transparent.and honest. It really gives us a great picture of the range and what to expect. Looking forward to your next review as you explore a new bit of sound tech for us. 😀 One topic I would love to know is how much differenc in sound quality is there is between a 2 channel dedicated like a mojo, blue node ... and one of these multi channel receivers in two channel mode.
I've heard the x3800 and C50. for movies the x3800 sounded heavier and fuller than the c50. The C50 had the feeling that it sounded too thin...but the x3800 became very tiring to listen to after a short time...aggressive highs and far too much bass... For me the c40 would actually be exactly what I want, only it should sound a little richer and fuller than the c50... in your video it sounds like I would get exactly that?
25:10 I had to make this decision when I got my x4700h originally I was going to get the x3700h but I went to the x4700h because it had Auro 3d and the x3700h didn't, at the end of the day I wish I had gone for the x6700h so that I could have gotten 13.2 processing and went beyond 7.2.4 originally went I got the x4700h I was only going to have 5.2.4 in my room, but I had the extra speakers and bought a cheap Amazon amp to get 7.2.4 and I want even more, I have the extra speakers and I could go to a 6 in ceiling set up if I wanted.
I feel the X4700h is a good choice and the sound quality improvement from the X3700h is noticeable. With that model you also get a better implementation of HDMI 2.1 over that of the X6700h - but as you say, the channel count is what you give up. -Jon
Is there any audio quality difference between Cinema 50 and X3800h. I am not able to go for an in person sound test to tell a differnce. Will be ordering online, if theres no diffetence then theres no point for me to buy Marantz and pay premium.
There is a subtle difference between the two. When I compared four models simultaneously (Denon AVR-X3800H, Marantz Cinema 50, Denon AVR-X4800H and Marantz Cinema 40), I performed A/B tests between each and found the Cinema 50 to be a bit more spacious and rich but I felt they were both within the same tier of performance. If you are concerned with cost and these are within your range, the Denon should be fine. See ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-P2GAbhRYCNk.htmlsi=FKr7aUAZfhoIB2G0 -Jon
@@ripewave Thanks Jon, appreciate your response, I also saw your Yamaha AVR A8A review as well a few days back, based on your A8A review I may go for Yamaha A6A. Audio quality is what matters the most to me and I can pay a premium for that but not for the branding.
I'd love to see a comparison between the AVR - A1H and the AV 10 with matching AMP 10, but the patrons are going to have to step it up because that combo would cost $20,499
@@ripewave I ended up purchasing the Cinema 40 2 weeks ago and it's a superb receiver. I am a now former Denon now converted Marantz fanboy. It's so good I switched my X3800H in my office to the Cinema 50 - the latter produces a much more 'rich' and 'warmer' sound compared to the Denon X3800H. To my ears, the Denon is too 'forward' and 'lean' compared to the Marantz.
Sir i am little confused between 2 power amp Like Emotiva XPA 7 or XPA 11 which one is better delivered output or going to some other brands kindly reply me ......
If you have difficult to drive (inefficient speakers - 4ohm under 87 db etc.) then I would leave towards less channels and more amps. If you have efficient easy-to-drive speakers - 8ohm over 92 db sensitivity you may find the XPA 11 to be a better option. -Jon
Good question. I have not heard yet. My guess is we are likely to hear something about new models in September - that is when Denon/Marantz usually announce new models. -Jon
When prices are closer together it makes it easier to jump up to the next model. If you prefer the styling on the Marantz Cinema 50 over the Denon AVR-X3800H, I would say it is a good opportunity for you to get the model you really want. The only drawback with the Cinema 50 is you are limited to the porthole for front panel status feedback. Also the Denon has a few more proprietary sound modes, but many don’t utilize them. The Cinema 50 feels like a higher quality unit do to the design and volume knob resistance. I didn’t hear much of a difference between the two. Very subtle in favor of Marantz. -Jon
Bi-amping does not increase power output. It can however make a modest improvement in sound quality. Bridging amplifier outputs will increase power output but should only be attempted if supported be the amplifier and you follow the amplifier’s manual for instructions on how to bridge the bridge able channels. Bi-amping is good if you have extra channels lying around. If you want more power either bridge or purchase an amplifier with more power. Jon
@@ripewave Hmm, my thought was this: 2 times 70% = 140 % is more than 100%. So when I have a "bi-ampable" speaker and I use it conventionally, I can get e.g. 125 W (with C40/4800) to the speaker. However, if I connect it in bi-amp mode, two of my AVR's power amps are used to power a single speaker, and each(!) can do ca. 88 W (70% of 125 W). So overall I can bring ca. 176 W to the speaker, namely 88 W for the higher and 88 W for the lower frequencies. Am I doing a mistake in my thoughts?
You are bringing at least 88W to the high and 88W to the low terminal- correct. However, that does not result in more power total to the speaker - still the speaker receives only 88Ws. You will experience an improvement in performance. The low drivers will no longer take power from the high drivers - there will be more headroom, but not more power. -Jon
@@ripewave So "improvement in performance" by the higher headroom meaning less distortions due to clipping, right? So potentially better sound quality.
When you say a difference sonically between the 38 and 48 is the 38 sounding thin? Currently testing the 48 and not sure if it’s worth going down to the 3800 if I plan on getting an external amp later
Adding an external amp to a 3800 will not make up for the sonic differential. I would stay with the 4800 if you can afford it. While $800 more, you can here the improved circuitry with and without external amplifiers. -Jon
Dear @Ripewaveaudio, kindly advise i have 7 channel power amp and can i assign my front, center, and surround and surround back total 7 speakers to my preouts settings and rest 4 channels to my main AVR, and choose 11.1 assign mode in the speakers/amp setting? without adding extra 2 channels to my external amp? OR what will be best setting. Thank you
Bi-amping can help if your speaker needs more power for the lower frequencies. If you have good subwoofers, the need for bi-amping is lowered. If you think your low end is underpowered, I would also consider one good amp instead of bi-amping. -Jon
Yes - I don’t have a relationship with Denon / Marantz. I find that some companies I have tried to build up a dialog with are just too slow to response. This method is must easier. Furthermore, there is complete freedom on how I conduct the review and the advice I provide. -Jon
@@ripewave I get it, but it's a bit unethical to abuse the return policy like this when you are buying with the full intent of returning it. Also, don't you run into problems with your Amazon account? I once returned a $2800 projector that I purchased with honest intent to keep but it did not work in the lighting environment. When I returned it, they froze my return privileges for several months. Alternative: Some other reviewers seem to have viewers who already intend to buy a particular model, purchase the unit and have it shipped to the reviewer, then reviewer ships it to the purchaser afterwards. It would be harder to coordinate a multi-unit video like this but would be more honest dealing.
@@htenthusiast2897 It's not as victimless as you think. Amazon is cracking down hard on returns due to excessive casual returns and instituting ID check requirements to do a return, returns processing times lasting weeks or months, delays on crediting back refunds, charging restocking fees, and even cancelling people's accounts. I'm sure buying for review and returning is a drop in the bucket in their returns, but they are high value items that now can't be resold as new so there is a financial loss there and it still contributes to the overall problem, the consequences of which all customers must now bear.
john great stuff, I'm considering C40 vs X4800. my usage is 50/50 movies & music. with the internal amps, how would you describe the Sound differences between C40/x4800 ? is one better than the other or same and how? let's ignore the looks. if budget was enough for both which would you buy for Sound Performance and why? thanks.
@@ripewaveappreciate your response. your one of the very few people to have been able to do A vs B vs C vs D like of reviews. id be happy to save the monies on the x4800 over a C40 with your kind help. Apologies if my question's sound repetitive but this one is for Music and I'll essentially be having to buy without a Demo where I live so you are my ears 😊 Only to reconfirm for Music stereo listening the Hdam thingy in the Marantz and the whole Warm sound thing on the internet..... Does the x4800 also have that same Warm Musicality/Signature of the C40 ? Thanks again.❤
I did prefer the Cinema 40 over the X4800 sound quality, but only slightly. Slightly to me may be worth $100 but not $1000. Warm? I guess they need to put a label on it, but I didn’t feel the Denon sounded harsh by comparison. The Cinema 50 (next tier down) to me sounded dull until you add Dirac calibration. To me dull is not warm. My recommendation is to apply room calibration and Dirac provides better results them the included built-in Audyssey. Albeit some say they prefer Audyssey MultEQ-X, which is also a paid upgrade. Either way I recommend upgrading the room calibration over what is included if funds permits. Of course it is some you can defer a year and still add later. -Jon
i chose the 8015 over all of them. i needed 13 chanels of processing . and the 8015 and cinema 40 are the same price. i hope marantz brings one day a new 13ch plus avr. 11 are to low.
On a budget, the x3800h, good speakers, acoustic room treatment, that would make sense. It's not just about one thing. It's about the holistic solution. Each part of the chain has to be efficiently maximised for utilisation to get the full results. By dollars worth right there
I agree with the "it about the holistic solution" comment. One component can impact the results. With the X3800h I would spend more time getting the room calibration tuned to compensate. -Jon
@@ripewave yeah I spent alot of time sorting the room acoustics first, then selected appropriate speakers for the room. It made all the difference. I have the x1700h also, and I did an A / B test, and wow the the x1700h has some really good internals and seems to be really well to tuned. The x3800h has a fatter sound and the highs don't really go that high, probably because the internal components are being squeezed out too much. I got the x3800h on a black Friday deal that was very good at 699 sterling and for that, you get full Atmos (with the addition of an external amp). Definitely for a larger room, I would choose the either the x6700h or it's newer model or x4800h. Denon overall for me do a great job for movies and decent for music. They know what they are doing and do it well on various budgets. Their amps are meaty and not prone to many failures. The alternative was onkyo but they are definitely prone to failure.
Having the room well prepare is a good way to start. Makes it easier to achieve good results. I really like that you performed the A/B test. Interesting how the x1700h held up against the newer higher tiered model. -Jon
