Part One: The Bastards of Forensic Science | BEHIND THE BASTARDS 

I used to be an asbestos analyst--examining samples of building materials, etc. to establish if asbestos was present and if so, how much and what kind. In our lab, we had stringent procedures (I think established by NIST?) to maintain our quality levels. So every 10th sample we analyzed was handed over to a colleague (crucially, w/o mentioning our findings) to be analyzed by them. If they got a different result, you had to look at it together to collaboratively reach a conclusion. Sometimes we'd bring in a third analyst to look as well. And every, I think, 50th was a traceable, laboratory-created standard of definitely known asbestos content--with a coded label, so you didn't know what you were expected to find. If you got too many of those wrong, you were taken off of customer samples and had to redo the training until you could pass enough again. This process allowed us, with statistics, to calculate a reliable, defensible error/accuracy rate and detection limit which was included in every report we issued. IDK how forensic labs work, but I have the impression that few, if any, forensic labs do this kind of thing.

The antique store hospital leads me to believe that ALL large buildings in the state of Texas are secretly a Buc-ees.

I went to school to learn how to be a forensic chemist and a summer internship at a police department RADICALIZED me almost as much as 4 years of college

The antique store probably buys family heirlooms from people desperate to pay their medical bills.

Finger Prince? I don't think so.

Aaaaah the only podcast who's dulcet tones are recorded loud enough to hear in my shower.

Important thing to know when talking about matching points on fingerprints: a full clean fingerprint has, on average, anywhere between 150 and 180 points. Something to remember when they talk about perfect matches with eight or twelve or however many points required.

I was TA for mayfields' kid's Spanish class. They had the best excuse I ever heard. The FBI stole my Spanish homework

Really big hospitals have whole shopping centers and definitely restaurants or diner/cafes in them. You gotta figure, people are in there for months at a time. You basically live there and anyone visiting you regularly basically lives there, too. So you can go down there and grab a nice gift for grandma from the antique store or grab a nice sit-in meal or just something else to look at that isn't a hospital ward.

On the microexpressions thing, Munecat covers them in a deep dive on body language "experts" here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Y0VQyEY-B2I.html And there's a link in the description to the parts that specifically cover microexpressions. My own field was anthropology-- physical anthropology as well as archaeology-- and even while she was bringing the topic and its history up, there were alarm bells in my head about the methodology. Sure enough, as she goes on, it's pretty clear that it's about as scientifically rigorous as phrenology... At best. Two things stand out to me among many, many problems with microexpressions. Any subject where the core research is obfuscated by "trade secrets" should be viewed with deep, deep suspicion. It's not like trade secrets for faster processing or better ways of translating input and output. While your specific methodology and output of a technical product might be obfuscated, the actual science behind how different chips work or programming work is fairly well known. This would be like if someone was saying "Yeah, I can control traffic flow for this major intersection in an old, complicated city with my Magic Box here. It works by electricity!" Which goes to the other, and more condemning problem, in my opinion. The science being bad and "trust me, bro" research is horrible enough in life or death or freedom situations, but because of the aforementioned trade secrets thing that Ekman, I think it was, was pulling, it violates a crucial part of the right to a fair trial and to confront an accuser. You cannot tell me that something is evidence, even a trial over a misdemeanor, if you are also telling me you won't share the basis of how it was done. That leaves no possibility of confrontation, of cross-examination, of counter-experts, or really, of any form of real way to look at evidence or procedures to find if impropriety, error, or other source has tainted the whole thing. That would, should be enough to treat any such claim or testimony as being equivalent to a psychic's.

Evans had the same reaction as me to the little wine testing tangent :) I also love research that debunk previously held strong beliefs. Also the police dog thing is absolutely true. They /can/ find stuff in a semi trailer on their own though, but in search stops like the usual ones they'd rather pay attention to what their pet pig reacts to.

I received a jury duty summons for next month. Gonna treat these episodes as required homework.

Lmao can't believe he had use Boston accent in the script. 😂

Trying to match a bite mark to a specific set of teeth seems like it would be as accurate as trying to match a bruise on the back of your hand to a specific door knob

19:19 My dad was a science teacher. I didn’t know as a kid that most people don’t cook with beakers and Erlenmeyer flasks. (Honestly best, people are missing out)

As a forensic scientist having flashbacks to professional practice and ethics courses, I sincerely hope you look into Englert in the next part. He was involved in the OJ case and his testimony put multiple parents in prison for the murders of their own children. David Camm and Julie Rae live rent free in my head forever now.

I love this podcast. Almost as much as Robert loves dilaudid.

Is Part Two going to be uploaded? Edit: Oh. Well. Hm. On listening to it on another platform, i got to hear Robert reading ad copy for BetterHelp, the data-selling scam that targets emotionally and psychologically vulnerable people. But not just reading the ad copy; opining on how much therapy has helped him and thus implying that BetterHelp can help you and, presumably, is a god product. I have no issue with them for what ads get run on their show; you can't control if some white supremacist coffee buys ad space. You certainly *can* control if *you yourself* read ad copy, and then actively manipulate people with a personal anecdote, breaking from the ad copy to give a seemingly-genuine endorsement. That is... Robert has lambasted people as bastards for less. And rightly so.

I actually _have_ managed to alter one of my fingerprints by accident. I was stripping the plastic coat off electrical copper with my knife and I slipped and slit my thumb and it healed wrong and left a permanent pucker in the print. As for the dogs, what would help to train scent dogs better is if you teach the dog to alert to a smell, then you work the course with the odor samples placed by someone who isn't the handler. That way, the handler doesn't know where the smells are and the dog can't look to the handler for a cue, they have to _find_ the odor source. Also, quite frankly, the geologist has a better chance of IDing the rock that bludgeoned someone to death than the forensic bite mark analyst does. If the rock leaves dirt or particulate behind, that you can actually run chemical analysis on and that might tell you something, whereas teeth are all made of teeth.

I have never had the sponsor announcements be followed up with sponsors, which gives this podcast a real fun friends in a basement vibe.

The antique store was there when the hospital was built, except back then it was just considered 'a store'

HOLY SHIT! Listening to part 2 on spotify and just got an ad for Milwaukee police! I couldn't fucking believe it! 😅 had to comment somewhere. It was I. The ads that play before the show. Anyone else get this ad?

you can tell when someones not from tx when theyre confused by restaurants in the hospital 😂

33:35 Ben Grimm: I like this guy!

Now I have to watch Galaxy Quest again after I'm done listening to this episode.

I really wish these episodes included links in the description to the books that you cite. I've picked up a few of them; they're interesting reading.

i also have been to a hospital with an antique gift shop and subway in it

I have a slight gripe about your police dog thing, what you said is only partially true and only true of poorly trained dogs (which do tend to be in law enforcement!). Dogs who are well trained (usually by us dog nerds) do actually tell their handlers where scents are. Nosework, and barn hunt are two scent based sports that us dog nerds compete in and we go in blind without knowing where the odor or rat is hidden. A business example of dogs indicating appropriately to odor as well are bed bug detection and truffle hunters. That being said, police organizations usually cheap out not only on the quality of their dogs, but the actual training and maintenance of training. They usually don't want to justify the costs of real training, and most of the training and maintenance is not done by knowledgeable people, it's pathetic. Overall I don't think police should have dogs because the level of mismanagement can be so heinous. And just overall stupidity. Ex. expecting a detection dog to be able to work all day and not understanding that scent fatigue is an actual thing.

But the ad I got was for how plastic is the most environmentally friendly form of packaging

I heard a story about someone had gone to a doctor and on a scan , was told she had something thats very very seriously shortening her life. And nothing could be done and she should make peace. She also got the, she eventually went to a more specualized hospital that, did debunk that. Doctors can as easy misinterpret and have bias as anyone, thats why in severe cases at least second checks of another doctor, is usually good. Because doctors are people too and can make mistakes, Medicine isnt as sure there, why retesting and tests are done usually repeated often.

LOL, this is one the funniest intros I've heard. Gotta love real estate fraud and great intro for Dr. :D

I love this show

Ive run a few DNA gels in a biomed class, and it's hard. you spend a week trying to do this and you end up with nothing because your partner doesn't know how to use a pipette or something.

This is similar to my job, which pertains to determining eligibility for public benefits. Like forensic science, my field has lots of objective criteria and is supposed to reach the correct conclusion every time. But in reality, the objective criteria contain numerous ambiguities; people applying the criteria have wildly different levels of knowledge, experience, bias, and interests; and there's only the barest layer of accountability around the process, so that in practice no one is ever really held accountable for mistakes. Oh, and one more thing: most of those targeted by our procedures are poor people. So I'm a bastard, do an episode about me!

Someone should ask that antique store guy to teach them the violin or blues guitar.

Oh my God, I had the exact same pull over experience in Texas because of my Oregon plates, this cop desperately wanted me to have a weed in my car and I am positive that stupid dog that I waited for is trained to just signal every time

Ooh, forensic bastards? I'm intrigued.

Forensic Proctology wasn't a phrase I thought i'd hear, but now that i've heard it....

I'm super glad now that while in boy scouts I didn't waste time on the super easy 3 requirement fingerprinting merit badge.

ADAB!

Even if fingerprint analysis was way less error prone than it is, it would still be problematic because we don't know how likely it is for any two random strangers to have fingerprints that (while probably not identical) are extremely similar, especially to the average human observer. Like, humans are relatively good at spotting basic similarities and differences between two things, but a lot of our brains also tend to miss fine details, which is probably where a lot of the real distinctions between human fingerprints are. So if two fingerprints have 6 points where their patterns overlap, or 9 points at which the two patterns overlap, that's only helpful if we know how likely it is for any two random people's fingerprints to have 6 points, or 9 points, of overlap. Human DNA is unique, too, but humans still share a majority of genes/gene sequences with each other, and even with other nonhuman life forms on Earth. Similarly, even if fingerprints are all technically unique, they could still share a lot of visual traits, enough for a human to have trouble distinguishing between them both. (This actually seems like the kind of thing an "AI"/machine learning algorithm could be really good at. No knowledge of context or "common sense" is necessary to just distinguish between two patterns in a vacuum, and tally up the number of similarities between them, including on an infinitesimally detailed scale. Especially if the fallibility of fingerprint analysis as evidence was known going in.)

Does anyone know where part two of this episode is?

If you don't cover Cameron Todd Willingham in Part 2, please consider adding a Part 3, because his is one of the most egregious examples of forensic junk science _anywhere, ever._

Where's part two goddamnit?

What happened to part 2?

Rock Lobster for Prez '24

Where is part 2?

Rock monster for president indeed

Even though theres different techniques or whatever to try and solve crimes, theres so many examples of people who werent police that did the research and investigating to find out what happened. Hell, even if the police are warned about whats going to happen it still gets flubbed up 🤦

I usually hate the opening convos, like don't bore us get to the chorus, but that thing about the antique shop in the hospital run by the devil had me howling! omg was that funny.

The accuracy of Robert's Boston accent proceeds apace. The quality will soon be unsurpassed even by natives.

Honestly i bet bite marks could only do much if something really unique to the biter is shown like multiple missing teeth towards the front of the mouth. But even then it wouldn't be a perfect match and more a "i think we can rule out some of these suspects cause they have their top front teeth and the biter didn't"

Gorignak 2024!!!

I think we need a new way to refer to the great majority of forensic science that entirely unscientific. I propose pig magic

They look like big, strong hands...

Having studied/worked in forensic anthropology, my biggest takeaway is that vulnerable and traumatized people are the biggest targets of pseudoscientific grifters. Good to know the whole field of forensic science functions similarly!

Finger prints are DEFINITELY not unique... we have found matching prints of UNRELATED people, and identical twins have identical finger prints... i have also met someone born without finger prints... an old man that thought he had the power of invisibility. odd fellow. wasnt invisible. 😂

Love from a Shark3ozero and Vaush fan!

Medical city?

I sell weed, and that wine tasting thing is very much the case with anything that has terpenes or flavonoids tbh. It's a valuable part of the sale though! Like, is it bad that I can influence the high the customer has by emphasizing certain traits of the weed? Probably, but humans are really suggestible. I feel a little bad about it sometimes but it's a good lever to pull, and I'm gonna be real, people pretty much ask for you to do it. Like, they don't SAY it, but underneath their words it's obvious they they want you to say things in a way that they can convince themselves things about the weed they've already decided to buy, or they will want you to reinforce ideas they have about certain flavor notes and effects that they believe those have on them specifically. DO they get paranoid on pine-y weed? Because they believe they do, yes, yes they do. Does pinene cause anxiety? Could do. Doesn't matter! Whatever makes the experience better for them, eh.

Hola.

I'm not one to complain, but where have Cody and Katy been?

Im not going to tell you where i am.. but heres enough information for you to find it in one google..

bias / buy us

First