First of all, I haven’t really watched your content before and I worried this wouldn’t be a good use of my time having watched Tim’s own reaction to the video but I’m very happy to report that you’ve added a lot of valuable insight that has me thinking deeper about these topics! Second of all, I know this is a little out there, but as someone who, like Paul, was raised white evangelical in the South, I think that what we see here is the product of fundamentalism stripping culture from us and keeping us narrowminded. Because from the looks of it, Paul doesn’t really understand literary tradition or metaphor. I’m very lucky that even though I was homeschooled in Mississippi, I went to a community college and a state university where my required English composition and literature courses exposed me to Mississippi, Southern, and African American literature. It gave me a sense of my own culture, and an understanding of literary criticism, that allowed me to eventually understand the Hebrew Bible as part of a cultural heritage and literary tradition. I think that fundamentalism is rooted in an inappropriate cultural appropriation of Judaism through a literal interpretation of a literary text, and that this 1) keeps us from appreciating cultural heritage writ large, allowing people raised white evangelical to universalize our idealized lifestyle and dismiss Black culture specifically as evil and demonic, and 2) alienates us from identifying and respecting Jewish culture and tradition in its own right. This leads to toxic and antisemitic beliefs like replacement theology (which I haven’t seen Morgan and Paul speak on publicly and i hope they are on the correct side of that) and keeps us in a cycle of self-flagellation specifically with regard to the obsession with sexual sin. I think that the fixation on sexual sin is a disgusting perversion but as I’ve heard John Dehlin and others say many times, it’s really the whole key to the hold that high demand religion has on its members because it causes people to literally disassociate from and hate their own bodies. I hope this makes sense! To be clear, I don’t think that going to college makes or breaks someone being able to deal with these topics intelligently, or that it’s the cure for reforming evangelicals, but I do think that this narrow view that Paul has on scripture is rooted in a paucity of substantial literature and cultural identification for him to engage with, and I can see very clearly how formal exposure to Mississippi, Southern, and African American literature in public higher education made a huge difference for me in the absence of being able to properly access that in my evangelical upbringing that had to bring everything back to a “Biblical” and “Christ-centered” worldview. This experience leaves people with only their insular version of the church and very little imagination with which to create a life beyond evangelical fundamentalism.
This is so smart and insightful! Very interesting assessment. Dr. Janja Lalich has a book and a cult theory called “bounded choice” that I think makes a lot of sense with what you’re describing. Because they have such a narrow understanding of the text and stripping culture to keep people narrow minded, they don’t actually see all the options and choices that other people see. Thank you for watching and commenting!
I used to be Paul. True believer. Pastors kid. It was more open minded Christian’s having conversations with me like this that brought me out of the cult. It blew my brain and I fought them on it, but my love for the Word of God made me research and study to learn what it teaches. Asking those questions got me out but I did a lot of staring off into space like Paul is doing in this video.
It's fascinating to me that Paul wants "empathy" from people because he feels he needs to call out the sins of others. But he does not even stop to consider the fact that maybe, out of love, progressive Christians are calling out the sins they see in him. His actions are hurting others. His actions are ruining the experience of life, and creation, for the people around him. His actions are causing them to live lesser lives, and to throw away the gift they were supposedly given by the creator. Of course people are going to disagree and see this as a sin on his part. It's the exact type of action that Jesus criticized, and if you believe in him, it's the exact kind of action Jesus died on the cross to prevent in the future. I'm not Christian and I can see this. I hope it clicks someday.
True. It's the classic example of seeing the splinter in another person's eye but not the beam in our own eye. Exactly what Jesus warned against. It's always baffling how they don't see this. There are so many things in the new testament that are pretty clear and they completely ignore them but claim, the Bible is clear on abortion (which the Bible never mentions in our modern context) or homosexuality (which is not mentioned at all since it's a modern day concept developed at the end of the 19th century). How about Jesus being clear that we should rip out our eye when it makes us sin? How about Jesus constantly criticising self-righteousness or the pitfalls of wealth?
I swear this video healed some of my religious trauma. Hearing someone argue with Paul is so cathartic, and then you explaining how Paul's thinking is based in fear and control is so validating for me because I was raised the same way.
40:44 A lot of P&M's crowd took this statement by Tim to be a personal offense on their "flawless Lord" and therefore incontrovertible proof that he is not a real Christian. I get why they're so upset, I may have been too at one point. But they are so missing the point! And completely unwilling to consider any other way of hearing that.
I never understood that part. Christ taught in parables and allegories all the time. He was well aware of the way that the Hebrew Bible used literary figures to share their history and culture.
@@YesItsWitticusExactly my response. Although I think Paul's response is more a trained response... any hint of invalidity tends to trigger a defensiveness and judgement of other Christians.
This is really interesting because you can see how Tim's sincerity and care makes Paul start thinking a little deeper. I didn't realise at the time, but when I was first drawn into christianity, it was the sincerity of the christians I met which hugely influenced my decision to follow the faith. This adds evidence for me that it is not the words which influence us most as humans, but the actions, behaviours, reactions which accompany them. If you deliver any message in the right way, you can influence people's thinking. It can be used for good or bad.
Finished watching now. I've seen this twice (you and Tim's/Sarah's responses) and it's such a fascinating watch. My takeaway is that Paul is out of his depth and is just untrained/inexperienced. I don't think this is the first time for him hearing these things, but I think he isn't aware enough of even the evangelical positions on these topics (to the extent there is), so he struggles. The upside of this is that it makes this a fantastic video for exploring Christian fundamentalism and how these denominations adopt and manage their own dogma. More even than P&M original intent of exploring more "liberal" positions, although I hesitate to call Tim's position that. I mean, it's good to hear Tim discuss this stuff, he makes all the right points so clearly and consistently. But it's fascinating seeing Paul struggle with his own cognitive dissonance in real time--you can tell he is realising his position on some topics isn't good or well thought out. Paul isn't even sure (when Tim asks him directly) what criticisms he has of Tim's beliefs. The only response I have is we should be cautious of attributing some of this as cultic or though control type behaviour. If it's there, it's mild. I think much of what Paul experiences is just lack of understanding. There is some element of him dismissing things that worry me, like the Judas inconsistencies, and his strong focus on the sexuality topics. But generally him glossing over/not answering responses is I think because of a) peer pressure, and b) he hasn't been taught critical thinking / isn't used to thinking in an academic & neutral way. Basically, he's too invested in one team/tribe, and so becomes defensive and judgemental of the 'other'. And us humans are naturally prone to that kind of tribal thinking/defending our team. It's a pretty normal response I think, even if frustrating sometimes to watch. Anyway, thanks for covering this vid from P&M.
Thank you I wanted to watch it, but not donate my RU-vid watch $ to Paul & Morgan. I would watch the New Evangelicals reaction video to it, but it doesn’t come out until Tuesday. I’m dying to see this but not give $ to P&M by watching their channel.
I usually don’t want to contribute views to fundies but I intent made an exception for this one because I figure if fundies are watching p&m or other fundies, I want them to be drawn to a video that has an ex-fundie voice. And see all the progressive comments. Maybe less fruitful but I also watched their reaction to Tim’s reaction to the original and added some comments , giving a few things to think about.
Yay I finished watching thanks for breaking this down and adding commentary about cult-think. I came out of a cult myself, so really relate to your content.
I saw that “Paul and Morgan are saying they fully intended to leave their RU-vid channel but have now announced their pivot to 'family vlogging’”. This statement was made only 3 months after they did this interview with Tim. I’m curious to see if some points Tim made lead to this change in content for them.
RE other people they dissagreed with... they did have Girl Defined on prior to this, and a lot of that content was Dav and deconstruction. And Dav was pushing back quite a lot on them.
@@Nocultyvibes Yes, agree... I don't think they realised going in with Dav. Also, Dav was quite different to talk to, and the conversation wasn't so direct I guess as a result.
How have I not seen your channel before? The RU-vid algorithm sucks. Instantly subscribed. What I find fascinating is how Paul and Morgan can be so completely uninformed about the context of when the new testament was written and think they can explain it to others. For example - the whole "don't look at a woman lustful" only makes sense in that time since a married woman dressed differently so you could see who is married and who's not. There is no problem at all for a single man to look at an unmarried woman and think she's attractive. I'm not sure Paul understood that. But of course there's so much more wrong with their fundamentalism... Great reaction video!
I think good points are made here...doing must not be more important than being...yet the being does inform the doing. And yes, what difference does being a Christian make while we live..how now shall we live?
i feel like sometimes Morgan is so vehemently hateful and especially victim blaming because she blames herself for being in situations she’s not happy in or for other people hurting her or for the pain she experiences, and it seems like she can’t stand to see other people who have been traumatized not blame themselves
As a Jew, I find the whole discussion repulsive. Christians focus on the afterlife to the detriment of the here and now. Jews focus on the here and now and whatever happens after death is up to G-d.
Seems like a healthy attitude. I always say, if there's an afterlife, I'll be happily surprised. If there isn't, I'll never know because I won't exist.
