Paul Anleitner & Sam Tideman - AI and Morality in post-Christendom 

51:00 "...the overemphasis in STEM..." Dear sweet baby Jesus, yes. This. Preach my gospel, Paul. 😍

One of the few AI discussions I've been able to (a) Listen to until the end; and (b) Follow. Thanks Sam and Paul!

Hot take: machines cannot be “wise” in any true sense of the word. They can be trained to mimic a wise person, but to Paul’s point the person you pick will dictate the pseudo-“wisdom” of the person/people it was trained on The biggest risk for AI IMO is that we outsource “wisdom”, moral questions, etc to these things that are in the final sum just complicated mirrors of ourselves

I wish more people would see this and understand that people lurk behind AI, and the greatest danger is people wrongly ascribing "objectivity" to it and prostrating their personal intellect to it -- sacrificing to the god, as it were. Gemini was a good lesson though ;)

Back in the 90s I had a patient whose chief complaint was scrotal swelling. This was seen in the correctional facility. His complaint was at night time and I was on my way home and I told the nurse what to look for when he was able to be evaluated. They were in what we call count at the time. They were counting the inmates to make sure everybody was there so he was locked down for about an hour. So the next day I see the same guy on call with the chief complaint of scrotal swelling so I assess him and he has a coat onand I noticed as he’s showing me his private area that his jugulars are bounding. It wasn’t only his scrotal area, but his whole lower extremities. The patient had atrial fibrillation and heart failure secondary to thyroid toxicosis, but his chief complaint was not shortness of breath or palpitations. It was scrotal swelling.

Diseases don’t read textbooks! // “ More is missed by not looking than not knowing”- Sir William Osler//Sir William Osler died in the 1918 1919 influenza pandemic

As a physician I can tell you if you use AI to place patients in different boxes without human oversight that patients will quickly figure out the "key" words to use to game the system to get placed in a higher acuity box. Then you will not only have the cost of the triage staff but also the AI on top of that. It will cost you more in the end.

So good! I’m sorry I don’t comment as often as I should- your interviews are a whole other level-

This looks interesting 👍

41:43 these are the questions I ask Rabbis since our Halacha will be greatly affected by this. It seems like people can’t comprehend the level of change and it’s ramifications. Worried

Several years ago I went to the local veterans hospital emergency department for left lower quadrant pain which I thought might be diverticulitis. I had worked a shift before and I had a shift the next day I figured I could just sleep in the ER once I get my diagnosis. When I arrived the intake nurse asked me my pain level. I said presently it is zero. But occasionally it gets to about a levelfour. My vital signs were normal pulse rate of 80 respirations 16 temperature 98 eight. My white count was normal at 8.0. My settings were slightly elevated. Chemistries were unremarkable. Your analysis was normal. I had overheard an x-ray tech ask what my drug screen was and it was negative. The CAT scan results came backAs uncomplicated Diverticulitis. Emergency room physician going over these results told me she was going to discharge me with a prescription of Cipro and I proceeded to tell me other things about diverticulitis. When she was done I asked what about Flagyl. She said well I could give you either Cipro or Flagyl. About five minutes later she returned and said I was right and she would be prescribing me Cipro and Flagyl. I can only wonder how many other people she had partially treated in her career. I can only wonder what would’ve happened had I know nothing.

38:25 Sam, your answer about the Sam Harris type people assuming that high IQ people would make the most ethical decisions is spot on. And sillypants.

Oh, production value upgrade

1:02:30 smaller, more intimate healthcare. Is healthcare relational or transactional? Increasingly moving to the transaction model, but relationships are the future.

Moral of the story…. Only go to the ER for emergencies like life or death. Stop taking kids with runny noses

1:02:30 AI kiosks making ethical decisions Scale, institutionalization and machine-thinking (Mindless Groupthink or not-think) is very related to profit or "not for profit". Is there a truly "not for profit" hospital...I don't think so. Sam, I kinda want to hook you up with a good friend of mine who practices Direct Primary Care or insurance-less, subscription based healthcare. He's awesome and I'd love for you guys to talk about this.

44:10 "Critical theory data science". Of course this would happen. An important ethical framework to take into account.

it is funny to see Sam in the anger/disillusionment/distrust phase of his Doctor "deconstruction." This is true of any religious deconversion/deconstruction and I have been there. The medical institutions and religious figures no longer stand up to scrutiny. He is no longer naïve. You can hear it in his voice, in his skepticism, and in his desire to expose the "truth" about the healthcare profession. The question is whether after he is done deconstructing the Doctor to nothing will he be able to go back to church as PVK would recommend or will he remain a medical nihilist/deconstructionist/skeptic forever.

In reality, your mammogram example doesn't actually save money because you still have to have the physician sign off on any AI interpretation because of liability and then you have to add the cost of expensive AI systems to the calculus.

41:24 Litigation concerns with AI. Absolutely. *Who is getting sued?* is probably the question that will drive AI. Which is gross.

Wow! Even an educated person is obviously ignorant as to appropriate emergency medical care. Life, limb and eyesight. If you aren’t about to lose these it’s secondary. However I saw our hospital have a billboard say “your emergency is our emergency “. . Job security! However heuristics is a poor measure if s/sx fall out of regular parameters.

Sam, I hate to say this but in all likelihood any idea or law you might institute would have many unintended consequences and would make the situation worse.

Triage is how its done. There are objective standards.

All morals are based on facts. No escaping this. And they are also based on logic, if what we mean by that is the logic of the world, i.e. the Logos. There can be no other basis for moral values. The Euthyphro argument stands. The fact that there is, and likely always will be, some uncertainty in how to act morally is ONLY due to the uncertainty of the future, nothing else. But some moral values are, by now, incontrovertible on factual/logical grounds alone. This is very different, I might add, from what people like Sam Harris are advocating (his views being absurd). Also, there is no dichotomy between the humanities and STEM. They are only two complementary ways to approach the Natural Law. Overall, pretty disappointed by this discussion. Too many basic mistakes on the fundamentals.