trans women lose a lot of their strength when going through hormone therapy. there's no way that a transwoman that has gone through this therapy will be able to throw as far as touring mpo players. this is very unfair to players like natalie ryan.
Some examples.... In the 2022 PDGA Champions Cup... Paige Pierce, who is one of the best, and longest throwing women of all time... Shot -9 for the TOURNAMENT. Paul McBeth, shot -18 IN TH FINAL ROUND. At PDGA Worlds, Kristin Tattar, also one of the best, and longest throwing women, shot -38. McBeth shot -46. At the USDGC / Throw Pink, the scores were MPO: -33 / FPO: -16. You will find similar gaps across almost every event where men and women throw on the same courses. Someone brought up UFC...Fallon Fox (trans woman fighter) shattered the orbital socket of a biological woman she fought. I'm not saying disc golf shouldn't be as inclusive as it can be. But, biological men have denser bone and muscular structure. This is how a coroner can identify a skeleton as male or female. I just don't see a way that a biological male, regardless of hormone treatments, will ever be fair competition for a biological female in a sport where height, arm length and strength matter as much as they do in disc golf.
What about people with XX chromosomes but develop gonads? What about people with XY chromosomes who develop ovaries? What about the gene SRY? Do you know what the bipotential primordium is? What if a person has XX chromosomes but their DMRT1 and FOXL2 genes stop functioning and parts of their biological sex changes after birth? It's simple, right? No conversation to be had, you know the answers to all these questions for every person you come across, right? "Fairness" is so simple when you ignore complexity, either out of ignorance or choice.
@@kyle40582 lol cry more, dudes beating chicks in sports is the least exciting thing that has ever happened to sports and women have been completely demoralized because of it
@@kyle40582 you’re seriously quoting medical anomalies and anecdotal evidence to be used as a general rule for all. That’s some serious mental gymnastics. Give the trans/other genders their own league then, that’s surely not even enough for them tho is it?
I am supportive of everyone being able to play. Just play in your own lane. I can care less what gender someone wants to be. But it is clearly unfair for Ryan to be playing in the FPO.
The PDGA is right in it's move. The three different divisions give EVERYONE a fair chance to compete against the highest and fairest level of competition they are eligible for.
I think giving the transgender community their own protected division should be a thing. Everyone wants fairness and many players fear backlash of speaking out due to such a sensitive topic. Nobody is hating or shaming them they just want athletic fairness. Alot of women have busted their ass's for over a decade to reach their standings and points in major events, only to have a biological male come in and take away their hard work. I would be absolutely furious too!
No one would watch and they’d cry it wasn’t fair because now they want “equity” not equality… Very happy the PDGA has strayed away from this woke agenda. We shouldn’t cater an entire sport to less than .1% of people
@@glancyoutdoors1881 it’s actually Mixed Pro Open, even so it’s not a protected division, the original commenter is saying there should be a protected division for transgender like there is for female, Junior, and age.
Other than big tournaments, there’s barely any women involved in local tournaments. There will be WAY FEWER trans players. The field will be almost Non-existent. TDs have a hard enough time filling Female divisions
Doesn't work. If you're trans, you can't go around "outing" yourself because you WILL receive hate and shaming. You can play in Mixed, but unless cis women start competing in MPO too, everyone will KNOW you are trans. And what of the 10% of trans who are F to M? Born biological female so they should be able to compete in FPO, even if now they've got a beard and muscles right? Probably not, as I'd imagine taking Testosterone hormone therapy would automatically disqualify you from competition regardless.
It infiltrated the skate industry, and I thought our world would resist identity politics. I've Skated a long while, but it's gotten wat to far into the culture war, and it's kinda why I've finally took a step back. Seeing top women pros cut their boobs off while the skate mags celebrate it and seeing women who can 180 down a four stair win awards over young guys literally setting the bar so high that's it's unbelievable, that I can't even understand what is going on. I just got into throwing disc this past year and it's been great. I would recommend fighting this stuff before your world goes crazy too.
It’s not like MPO is a Male only division it stands for Mixed. I don’t see why everybody just can’t play mixed and leave FPO for Female Biological bodies only. Atleast for those who want to. And if they don’t those women can play MPO too.
This is the best possible answer right here. Anyone can play in the Mixed (basically Male and very high level Females if they desire), and only biological females can compete in the FPO. Makes total sense. Sadly doubt it will happen.
@@salimoneusthat omits the underlying question totally. The real problem is: What are the acceptable and fair criteria for creating a protected division? Why someone who has lost their physical ability due to an accident is less worthy of positive discrimination than someone who just happened to be born different, or perhaps someone who lost a lot of strength due to hormonal therapy? Why someone who has an access to a healthy diet and retains their capability through time better can play with someone who ages faster due to being economically underprivileged? The real big question of justice and fairness in sports is a huge one. Right now, it just happens to show itself through the issue of gender-protected divisions. 'One division only' sure is logical and easy to enforce, but if totally fails to address the problems of inclusivity and sense of fairness.
There’s no debate if you have a woman’s chromosomes you may compete, if you have male chromosomes you are welcome to qualify and compete against the men. Or you are free to start your own self-financed league.
Great work on this video! So good of you to talk about all of the factors, and just stating the possible conflicts. No matter what decisions are made people won't be happy. Let's just hope that eventually everyone will be shown acceptance and love.
in amateur MMA we had to go get a blood test on our own to show we don't have AIDS/Hep C or anything that can be transferred via blood-to-blood contact. It's really not that complicated, and it won't take a lot to enforce.
@@googlesucks136 your statement doesn't make sesce? What man is pushing women out of women's sport? Attleast in discgolf. Women has their own division to where men cant participate, but men don't have their own, so in theory women could push men put of "their" division, cause it's Open for everyone, not just for men.
I agree, enforcement of their rules will be an issue. They also made a mistake by not including the ban for A-Tier and below as well as Amateur events. Disc golf is still inclusive and players of all races and genders are not prevented from playing and competing. They just can't compete is a protected division that they do not qualify in. Would we be OK with a 42 year old player competing in the MP50 division because he "feels" older that his birth certificate states?
I'd avoid the age comparison, as that's typically made in bad faith. It's not just "feelings" as there are observable physiological reasons behind why someone is trans.
They never banned transgender. It simply states you have to play in the correct division. They are keeping it fair for the pros. But I really wish they carried the rule over for all the amateurs as well
I absolutely agree that kindness should be the base position for anyone approaching this issue however pandering is not kindness. This issue is totally framed in physical sport and, as such, needs to be determined within those parameters. This is not about feelings and emotions. And, correct me if I'm wrong about this, transgender athletes can compete freely in Open divisions... can't they?
I’ve started comparing the rates of improvement from 1st PDGA rating to Y2 and Y4. Trans women (the 4 I’m aware of) improve their rating by over 1 standard deviation up to nearly 3 by Y4 over the Top 20 cis gendered rated players in the world. At Y4, all of them rank in the 90th percentile of Top 20 FPO cis gendered players and even go as high as 99.0 and 99.9 percentiles. There is some data that can be mined from PDGA stats that does demonstrate an advantage if all women (cis and trans) are assumed to have the same baseline. Also, it should not be overlooked that Natalie was the top ranked FPO player in the Power Precision Index-PPI. She was the most accurate from distance. The only shots that qualified in the PPI were 350’+. It can not be overstated that regardless of how far someone can throw, how the disc gets there matters. Natalie throws over 420’ on a single hyzer angle. Other players (the few who can reach that distance) are having to get a full S-turn or hyzerflip for comparable distance. Also, the harder someone throws the less accurate they become. The PPI reflects that principle. Important to note, this is not trans women vs all women. This is trans women vs the very best players in the world.
Something that doesnt get talked about nearly enough are all of the other physical advantages that men enjoy over women. Strength is the main one, and the claim from the pro-trans side is that HRT causes them to lose the advantageous strength, which isn't entirely honest. They tend to lose SOME of the strength, but even after 3 years they generally still have about 10% more strength than women due to being a male. Here are some of the other physical advantages biological men have over biological women. -men have higher hemoglobin levels, which means more oxygen reaches muscles -men generally have larger lungs and hearts, which, again, leads to more oxygen reaching muscles, faster -Men have more fast twitch muscles fibers, which gives them more explosive power -Men generally have broader shoulders and larger hands and feet, which give them advantages in many sports, and give them more leverage when throwing -men are generally taller, which gives advantages in many sports, with disc golf being one of them. Taller people have longer arms and longer arms can produce more of a "whip" effect when throwing the disc (part of the reason why taller players like AB, Buhr, etc can throw so far) -On average, men have 66% more upper-body muscle and 50% lower-body muscle, which obviously translates to more power and strength. -men have quicker reflexes and generally have better hand-eye coordination. (like putting the best suspension on your car that money can buy) -Men have larger and stronger bones; this allows the skeleton to hold more muscle and facilitates greater leverage -Men have much better grip strength than women, which is one of the key tests to measure strength. Tests/studies have shown that the top 10% of women can only beat the bottom 10% of men in terms of grip strength.
How many tour events has Ezra won in the past two seasons? How many did Natalie win? Are you implying that because Ezra has a more athletic build than the majority of disc golfers that he somehow has an unfair advantage?
@@johnpicklesimer2879 Obviously, but its not nearly the same scenario. One situation is a male competing against females while the other is a male competing against other males. Now to be clear, im not against testing players for PEDs, but even in the unlikely event Ezra is on gear he clearly isn't lance armstronging his way to multiple world titles. The OP might have a point if he was winning, but he isn't, they are probably just salty not everyone subscribes to their ideology.
I'm disappointed to learn that Natalie is going to fight this. So many people who support transgender rights, do NOT support transgenders competing against biological women. It just isn't fair. Now Natalie is really going to have the world against her.
The PDGA is not obligated to respect any form of outside regulation. It would be fully within their right to simply say no transgender players of any type may compete or even receive a PDGA number. They can, just like a cake store that doesn't want to bake for a gay wedding, simply say fuck off. Whether or not that decision will greatly affect their cake sales or player enrollment will determine what future changes, if any, they make to it. But there is no legal basis whatsoever for a lawsuit and I can't imagine they would tolerate one. If Ryan pursues legal action the PDGA is most definitely hitting her with prejudice which means she is going to be responsible for the entire cost of legal proceedings when she loses or is denied.
Disc golf has always had a policy of recruiting more and more women into the sport. Having trans women competing against them would turn a lot of XX women off of the sport. If I were an XX female I wouldn't want to compete against an XY female who went through male puberty, I'd drop out of the sport.
It would be disaster for the FPO to have to allow transgender players. The league made the right decision. This is happening just as the FPO division is coming into its own. This cannot be allowed. These activists should start an open league of their own but they should not be allowed to destroy FPO disk golf.
It makes sense to have divisions in disc golf restricted by gender. Unlike restrictions based on rating, age or pro/am status which have a defined guideline just about everyone agrees, where to define female has varied opinions.
It makes a lot less sense in a sport that has a handicap system in place. I'm not saying player rating solves every issue around player divisioning, but it definitely makes this particularly strict policy compared to athletic sports questionable.
It's never a woman coming to play with men that cause these issues, it's always when a man goes to play with women. This should be a huge red flag as it is. Also, women play with shorter tee pads and still don't get close to the men score-wise. Saying you're a woman doesn't make you a woman, and that needs to be respected everywhere
I don't understand how natalie ryan thinks she has a case considering she's admitted to not sticking to the hormone regiment and said she's not even that good but she's good enough to win.. I mean MPO is mixed not mens so anyone can play in that already. but far as banning currently players is sketch.. I understand adding regulations but i feel like the current ones are grandfathered in HOWEVER need to pass the testing that new players will need pass as well. If thats whats being done then i miss read it but . I'm not seeing how natalie of all people has a leg to stand on.. if it was Chloe Alice who hasn't said/ done any of these things it would look WAY more genuine but for some reason far as I've seen she's been largely silent.
I am not trans. But that sounds fair for all. Local events don't always have a female division unless they have enough competitors. They would then sign up to their ability.
To me it's not about testosterone or the blood work. Yes that has a lot to due with it, but to me the real reason trans-athletes should not be allowed to compete has to do with leverage. Hear me out: You know how a catapult works? It has a skeleton frame and a weight that is used to transfer energy from the weight to the material being catapulted. Now, imagine you have a 40 foot catapult and 60 foot catapult built to scale of each other and they were competing to see who can through the farthest rock. Because the 60 footer is going to be built with slightly thicker wood to make the frame sturdy enough to hold the extra weight of itself and material, it will always be able to throw the same amount of material farther than the 40 footer. This is the same when it comes to trans-athletes. In general, men have a bigger wrists and hands, broader shoulders and different hips, this skeletal structure is a huge advantage when it comes to transferring weight, say when you kick a ball, or serve with a racket. The slightly larger skeleton not only enables the man to transfer more energy, but to hold more muscles on the frame which increases weight and increases the speed and power of energy transfers. How much does the taking hormones before puberty effect the skeletal structure of a mans frame? I guessing not even close to enough to make the average man fair play for the average women.
That is an old take., the bone density is the bigger issue as even small guys like that one who almost won Worlds in 2018 sponsored by the Swedish Trilogy line would not be even close to doing well on the male side in tournaments until he burned out and you could just get a 7 foot tall women to win the men's side too and they would not. It is the Bone density thing. Men's bones are usually denser then a Women's.
@Casey smith Thanks for your comment, but maybe you miss my point? It's not about long arms and short arms, or tall and short, it's about the “average man's frame” versus the “average women's frame.” It's about generating leverage. Obviously, there are short men throwing as far or farther than taller men. But when compared to women, male leverage points are created different. The joints where the skeletons created and transfer leverage, especially the hips, shoulders and wrists are just too different to ever be fair. Hips in males are slimmer and have evolved to generate the most power when they kick, jump and run unlike the women's, which is widened and at a different angle all together, to give birth. In addition, the average male has broader shoulders and larger wrists to transfer energy( just look at the data on tennis serves between the sexes, females serve at about 80% of the males power). Larger wrist size transfers to larger hands to hold and transfer greater energy then their counter parts ever could. Not only is the average male probably 10-12% larger, but the skeleton itself is not put together in the same way. I have no problem saying I don't know enough about bone density, but I don't think it, anyway takes away from my argument. If male bones are denser, which make sense, their skeleton would have evolved to absorb more energy from the kicks, jumps, and running, meaning they'd grow stronger denser bones. Which only adds to my argument, mens skeletal structure has by far, evolved to create more leverage than their counter part ever could regardless of hormones. Everything I've stated is a fact. It's not a "take or theory." If my talking points have been debunked somewhere I'd love to see it, but I don't think physics has changed since I last checked. My only question would be, does taking the hormones before puberty change? A) the general skeletal size of the adult, B) the hip placement and, placement and broadness of collar bones. And now due to your comment, we could add C) the bone density(if it’s a factor). If the hormones don't change those(and I have a feeling they might a little, but not enough on average to make it even close to fair) then we should not, as a society, support trans athletes switching sports. Playing against females, while brave in a societal sense, is also about the most cowardly thing you can do. Chaps my ass to no end seeing females(who are clearly not allowed to be publicly seen or heard giving a dissenting opinion for fear of back lash)competing against a modified version of something else. If I was a female playing on the tour, I would purposefully, and as loudly and as out spoken as I could, shame every trans athlete at every event I played in. In addition, I would purposefully and as outspoken as I could, support the trans community in every other aspect. You'd be hated and loved for sure, but if you wanted to make your name a house hold name at put disc golf on a national stage in America, that would do it.
You're def right. People usually only talk about muscles and bones when they talk about male physical advantages over women, but there are more that don't typically get covered. -men have higher hemoglobin levels, which means more oxygen reaches muscles -men generally have larger lungs and hearts, which, again, leads to more oxygen reaching muscles, faster -Men have more fast twitch muscles fibers, which gives them more explosive power -Men generally have broader shoulders and larger hands and feet, which give them advantages in many sports, and give them more leverage when throwing -men are generally taller, which gives advantages in many sports, with disc golf being one of them. Taller people have longer arms and longer arms can produce more of a "whip" effect when throwing the disc (part of the reason why taller players like AB, Buhr, etc can throw so far) -On average, men have 66% more upper-body muscle and 50% lower-body muscle, which obviously translates to more power and strength. -men have quicker reflexes and generally have better hand-eye coordination. -Men have larger and stronger bones; this allows the skeleton to hold more muscle and facilitates greater leverage -Men have much better grip strength than women, which is one of the key tests to measure strength. Tests/studies have shown that the top 10% of women can only beat the bottom 10% of men in terms of grip strength.
This policy is not strict enough. Someone who has a Y-chromosome cannot compete against someone who does not have the same. End of subject. Having operations and taking drugs to reduce the effect of the Y chromosome still leaves intact the major structure that males have. It may be necessary in these absurd times to separate things into the XX tournaments, and the XY tournaments.
Misleading title. PDGA did not ban gender dysphoric players. As with all players, equally, they may play in their biologic sex divisions. Simplest approach there is...
No offense, but there are Men that can't throw as far as Natalie. If she actually loves the game then she won't destroy it. And if she respects fair sports then she should play in the MPO division and show us all how good she really is.
Don't call her she. If he really is a she, then you're agreeing that he is a woman. If he is actually a woman, he should be allowed in fpo. So that's why using preferred pronouns completely undermines your own argument
@@nathanrobbins2440 you're just indecent, nathan. or can i call you "scumbag" as your name because you don't seem to care what people want to be called and that's what i feel like calling you.
It was a pointless and willfully ignorant rule made to pander to transphobes. I suspect they may be legally within their rights to make it, but morally to exclude women from a women's event is far from something to celebrate. I'm no particular fan of Natalie, but 1) she is a woman and 2) the level of abuse for her in the discourse around this topic is disgusting.
DG is a strength sport. So no unfair advantages. No drugs, no arm lengthening equipment, ... We don't care who or what you sleep with. We don't care what body parts you add or remove that are involved with throwing a friz.
100% agree that the FPO protection is right and needed, but I also can't say that I agree with any written rule that encourages a child to decide if they want to gender swap at a young age for the sake of future sports eligibility.
Just have 3 divisions. MPO, FPO, and TPO for transgender. Have the payouts be far lower than the other 2 divisions cause of the small number of these players, but they still get to play but for far less financial gain. Then the league won't get sued, and if they sue because of the low financial gain we can tell them if you don't like the payout then you can go find a different job that pays better.
I think there should be a limit on testosterone levels, but not as low as the one set by the PDGA. Some women who were born as such have higher testosterone levels, so this limit doesn’t make any sense.
There is a significant advantage in being male. The PDGA gave a path to playing for trans athletes. If you were born male, you play male until your testosterone is below 2 nmol/l, then you play female. Seems very fair. If you don't think that a low testosterone individual should have to compete with full testosterone men, you are making my point.
This then screws any Transgender player from South Dakota as they do not allow under 16 to even start the hormone therapy and blockers only 2 years prior at 14. South Dakota, the state I come from that Nome tried to outright ban people from transitioning or being able to change there gender but failed due to the people born between genders. This law stuff was stopped as it really would have screwed the people who are born between genders from being able to pick a gender and having to be whatever % of female and whatever % of Male they were born as put onto both drivers license and on birth certificate and having to be both genders at the same time using the symbol Prince used for his name a few years if born exactly 50% 50%. Apparently Nome even said those parents with children born between genders should not exist, just give them the death penalty when born as a law she wanted to do at the time she tried to ban people from Transitioning but even that was advised against by other republicans in her staff to do, as it would have violated the USA Constitution and its amendments something in there about killing people without a fair trial or using the 14th amendment to help here using the Minority part and killing them would have come up in South Dakota. I say every sport that does more events like tournaments or single events then needs to make Transgender Divisions for both M to F and F to M or you will have unfair coemption wondering if a transgender M to F who wins a male division did not cheat by overuse of hormones to have the testosterone higher then 90% of men.
MPO and MA 1/2/3/4 are open for anyone of the appropriate ratings... These policies are designed to protect women (who were born women) and fair competition, they are not "screwing" anybody.
As someone with a 11 year old daughter who loves playing, this needed done! Biology and identity are two entirely different things, and in sports, biology is key for fairness. I'm so glad they put policies in place protecting the FPO from men claiming to be a woman trying to play against actual biological women. These players can always go play in the MPO...
Didn't Natalie Ryan submit her bloodwork and transition history last year? That means the PDGA has the necessary documents to enforce their ban for Natalie. But if they don't require any documentation for new players then how can they enforce it?
Prove that HERRRRRRRR skeletal density and muscle response timing didnt benefit from puberty as a male. No documentaion about "transitioning" is sufficient. Female has a biological meaning that goes beyond injection with artificial hormones.
Not to mention all the actual women who will be insulted when they get accused of being trans if they are decent at golf and don't look like Kristan Tattar or Catrina Allen.
There isn’t justification for a lawsuit, IMO. The sanctioning body makes the rules of the sport/game and the players need to adhere to those rules. Natalie can play if she can qualify in the division for which she is eligible, and the PDGA / DGPT are not preventing her from registering (for MPO). However, she has registered and shows up as a player in FPO for the 2023 Las Vegas Challenge, so that is the biggest complication right now. Is the sanctioning body going to enforce the new rule and disqualify her or ignore their own rule and keep her in FPO for the tournament? Let’s see how this plays out.
This is not actually complicated. Identifying as one gender or another doesn't change the presence or lack of a Y chromosome. Women should compete only with women, and men with men. That is fair and equal.
Remember when P.Pierce competed in an MPO event a few years ago? No one cared in terms of fairness. It was like good on her for testing her abilities against men. That doesn't work both ways. Never should a bio woman have to compete against a bio man in sport.
100% true. Look at the LVC that just took place. The best score in MPO was -31 while the best score in FPO was -20. If the top 3 women would've been playing in MPO they would've placed 23rd, 39th, and 43rd. Only 5 females scored in the double-digits below par, while 54 men did. Even if you account for the fact that there were about twice as many men playing that would translate into about 10 or 11 females scoring double-digits under par or better. That's an 80% drop from MPO to FPO. Even THAT is with 70 of the MPO players only playing 3 rounds too. If all MPO players would've been able to play the final round and they were able to score the same score they had in the 2nd round, there would've been another 16 guys scoring -10 or better. That's 70 guys to 10 or 11 girls, that's a drop of 85%. Men have so many physical advantages over women, a lot more than just strength and bone density, although those are some of the bigger ones. Here are some of the other advantages men have: -men have higher hemoglobin levels, which means more oxygen reaches muscles -men generally have larger lungs and hearts, which, again, leads to more oxygen reaching muscles, faster -Men have more fast twitch muscles fibers, which gives them more explosive power -Men generally have broader shoulders and larger hands and feet, which give them advantages in many sports, and give them more leverage when throwing -men are generally taller, which gives advantages in many sports, with disc golf being one of them. Taller people have longer arms and longer arms can produce more of a "whip" effect when throwing the disc (part of the reason why taller players like AB, Buhr, etc can throw so far) -On average, men have 66% more upper-body muscle and 50% lower-body muscle, which obviously translates to more power and strength. -men have quicker reflexes and generally have better hand-eye coordination. -Men have larger and stronger bones; this allows the skeleton to hold more muscle and facilitates greater leverage -Men have much better grip strength than women, which is one of the key tests to measure strength. Tests/studies have shown that the top 10% of women can only beat the bottom 10% of men in terms of grip strength.
Just make a transgender division. Ordinary males and females and children and so on have no option of division. I have to play what I’m qualified for. They should be required to play for whatever they qualify for. Simple…
You need to change your headline and stop gaslighting. The rule doesn't ban transgender. It just means they have to play in the mixed open which is for anyone. And to be fair it should be across the board in all divisions.
Wait, so they aren’t banned. The levels just got lowered and now Ryan can’t pass the test anymore. To me his lawsuit means to eliminate the test altogether. Wow! Just ridiculous.
This is awesome cause they use science to tell them straight up normal human women have these Levels if you don’t have these level science says you are not a woman so you cannot compete in a women’s competition you can go off to Layla land and call yourself whatever you want but that doesn’t make it true in any sense but that’s okay believe what you want but that belief isnt fact and this lays it out so good in a way they can’t argue
How about play in the sport you are genetically designed for. If you CHOOSE to change, your responsible for your decision. Own it by playing in the same division. No harm to anyone.
The headline of this video is biased and wrong. The PDGA's new eligibility policy is common sense to those of us who are not so "open minded" as to allow our brains to fall out; that is, a biological adult male, regardless of how long they have undergone hormone therapy, already has the muscle and bone structure in place as a result of biology, not training & exercise as Natalie has publicly claimed, to give them an unfair advantage over biological women. At no point in history has the PDGA EVER banned transgender players from competing. Any and all players are welcome to compete in either the female or mixed player categories. My guess is that any lawsuit brought against the PDGA, or its sponsors, will result in dismissals. At this time in human history, it amazes me people are finding new ways to discriminate against women. Biological males do not belong in women's sports!
Good for the PDGA. I hope they stand tall and firm on this issue. It's a sad World today that we have to address these issues, but here we are. In my opinion I believe this is an easy problem to solve. If you're born male, you're a male for life and the same for females. It shouldn't matter how you change your body. I can't believe we are even having this discussion on Gender. I think its criminal to be allowed to change your gender to begin with. What has our World come to? Stand up for what's right and I think we all know what that is. Men compete against Men, and Women compete against Women!
I think gender protected divisions should be treated the same as age protected divisions. If I say that I identify as a seventy year old that does not mean I can complete in that division.
If you are a man you have inherent physical advantages over women.. discgolf is a sport where speed and strength is very very important.. if you're born a man and you transition you still retain the vast majority of the traits that set men apart from women in athletics.. FPO stands for Female pro open - MPO stands for mixed pro open..
Let's say for argument's sake that by transitioning, your speed and strength become on par with women. There is still the issue that if you were born male, you are more than likely taller and have longer limbs than your female born counterpart. By having longer limbs alone, you have an advantage in disc golf. Unless the trans person is willing to have their bones reduced by a percentage in size, they will have an advantage, even without extra speed or strength. This is based on averages only. It may be unfortunate for them that they don't want to be their gender and have surgery, but that shouldn't mean that female athletes, who make their living playing these sports, should suffer. In the case of Natalie Ryan, I think they are upset because this will be taking a dream career away from them. I would fight for that too, but you can't just look at your side only and need to try to understand the position of the other side. Instead of trying to fight a legal battle, why not try to come up with a way make it fair. If you are trans playing in FPO, you have to throw from the MPO tees (just a thought). Instead of trying to fight against it, I think it would be more productive to try to work with it. Just my 3 cents.
@@stbuchokThis is very true. People usually only talk about muscles and bones when they talk about male physical advantages over women, but there are more that don't typically get covered. -men have higher hemoglobin levels, which means more oxygen reaches muscles -men generally have larger lungs and hearts, which, again, leads to more oxygen reaching muscles, faster -Men have more fast twitch muscles fibers, which gives them more explosive power -Men generally have broader shoulders and larger hands and feet, which give them advantages in many sports, and give them more leverage when throwing -men are generally taller, which gives advantages in many sports, with disc golf being one of them. Taller people have longer arms and longer arms can produce more of a "whip" effect when throwing the disc (part of the reason why taller players like AB, Buhr, etc can throw so far) -On average, men have 66% more upper-body muscle and 50% lower-body muscle, which obviously translates to more power and strength. -men have quicker reflexes and generally have better hand-eye coordination. -Men have larger and stronger bones; this allows the skeleton to hold more muscle and facilitates greater leverage -Men have much better grip strength than women, which is one of the key tests to measure strength. Tests/studies have shown that the top 10% of women can only beat the bottom 10% of men in terms of grip strength.
@@undeadarmy19 Men don't menstruate. This is another advantage I thought of the other day. No cramps, pain, bloating or other issues that come with it during a tournament.
@@stbuchok yeah I never even considered that, but youre right. You also made a good point about it being NR vs all of the other females. All the pro-trans people think about is how a trans "woman" will be at a disadvantage if they aren't allowed to play in the FPO, they never consider the fact that they have to put the hundreds of females that have to play against him at a disadvantage. This ridiculous idea lately where we're supposed to change everything and put a huge percentage of the population at a disadvantage just to coddle an extremely small percentage of another population needs to stop.
Let women that have worked extremely hard to get where they are at in the sport compete with other women and not have a man try and take that from them. Why not have a trans league.
I feel there is good potential for a title 18 sec. 242 USC. Claim to be made when you combine intent of the policy which was to exclude trans, with no offering of how to include. They also aren't testing all women and who is to say for sure there aren't women in the field whom no one is aware are trans. This happens a lot in the Olympics So they have singled out those who are opening trans, failed to see if others are hiding the fact... And quite simply seeking to exclude the trans "others" complain about... Ie: allowing the majority to deny the minority. You will need the aclu, or a similar org to deal with this. There are not many qualified lawyers that can articulate the matter
Being a transwoman for almost two years now I am torn here because I've played this sport for 9 years!!! This is not just a sport to me. I've played in over 16 am/pro tournaments was only 90 points from going pro but I had to stop playing tournaments because of my lifestyle choices. I'm 6,6 235 lbs so I understand. I do throw far but I have only broke 400 ft a handful of times so it isn't like we can just throw a million miles away and crush every shot!!! Sure put us in the advanced or pro division but at least give us a shot this is 2023 after all!
They didn’t ban anyone. They made a rule in order to make the fairness of the game. By trying to set a standard relative to Olympic rules. Traditionally based on the advantages of the born male physique. Why isn’t there any female transgender athletes competing against men, however as a society we always see male transgender athletes wanting to compete against women.
If the monopoly holds all the cards, how do you expect to fight it? I really like to play this game, but there's things I don't agree with. I have never had a pdga number and I probably never will.
If the premise is that trans women “have an advantage”, then pdga should put its money where it’s mouth is and institute a formal anti-doping policy. They have no policy. If trans women are to be subjected to 24 months of proof of hormone levels, all pro players should be subjected to the same burden of proof checking for banned substances listed by the world anti-doping agency and other substances that also “give an advantage”. According to Mt.Sinai NY, “normal” female testosterone ranges are up to 2.5 nmol/L, so the PDGA standard of 2.0 is clearly not based in science, but because someone thinks the concept of trans people is icky.
Let's not forget that men have a different body structure than women no matter what you do you cannot change that and that is an advantage I do not understand how women can agree with that they're the ones that have worked so hard to get where they are to be told by a man they need to do better to beat me in a female division
