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I think the artistic differences make sense for telling a visual story vs a written one. Gandalf being aware of the Balrog and being uneasy during the scene really validates the eminent threat of the Balrog. Its adds drama and makes the viewer feel the gravity of the Balrog's power level. While I do wish we could have seen a glimpse of the Balrog represented as a magic wielder/maiar, I think the visuals of the scorching tunnel in the distance, the fleeing of the orcs, and the chaos of the flight of the fellowship, and finally terror of the ancient demon's reveal worked seamlessly. I give this scene a 10/10
It's all about communicating the same basic story in a much more concise way, cutting out unnecessary info, which it did very well. There's so much in the books that is unnecessary for a movie.
one little thing I would have liked to have is instead of it roaring I would have liked to hear it say something along the lines of, "you will die here, wizard" (in the Black Speech of Mordor of course) with the same voice as the roar. yes it would have been hard to understand, and that's okay. it would have shown it is clearly an intelligent being and not a firey rage monster.
The orcs running away wasn't necessarily out of character or nonsensical, either, in my opinion. Just because they were on the same side doesn't mean the orcs wouldn't have been scared every time this thing made an appearance. The Balrog would have regarded them as an inferior beings and wouldn't have hesitated to kill them if they displeased him or if he woke up in a bad mood.
@@ElveeKaye I coul also see them being afraid of being burned just by its presence. I could totally see it swatting them aside like flies just to scare the enemy.
I think it is more so that not knowing what enemy he faces (especially since it is already a threat great enough to catch him off guard) is a greater threat to gandalf than a balrog. imagine being unsure whether whatever just killed you with a counter spell is just a taste of its power, imagine the possibility it may be the Dark Lord himself. the wisdom and knowledge is the wizards magic in a sense, so 'ignorance' in terms of not knowing what is happening is like the opposite or something like that. idk XD
One of the things I like best in this scene is how it demonstrates the way magic works in LOTR: It states things to be so, and so they are. Gandalf declares that the Balrog cannot pass (shall not in the movie, which is another change) and indeed he cannot. Gandalf states to the Witch King that he cannot enter the city of Gondor and so it is (he gets distracted, true, but still he did not enter the city). Frodo at one point clutches the Ring and declares that if Gollum touches him again, he shall burn in the fires of Mount Doom. Gollum does touch him again, and he does burn in the fires of Mount Doom. Magic literally describes what "is".
My favorite is the deleted scene about the death of Saruman. Gandalf says "your staff is broken", and immediately Saruman's staff explodes into splinters. He doesn't say, "your staff will break" or "I will break your staff". He's not saying what shall be or really doing anything other than his capacity as an emissary and spokesman for Eru, he is just stating a fact.
The change from "can" to "shall" is excellent - it portrays the Balrog's passing as an act strictly dependent on Gandalf's will. It shall not pass. Not that it can't - it shall not, while Gandalf wills it so.
@@GholaTleilaxu If I declared "the sky is green", that would not make it true. But in Tolkiens world, if a being with sufficient magical abilities says so then the sky will indeed become green.
@@Stevie-L-n8g The line was movie-cool, but you are completely right. Not to mention that an Olog-Hai was slain by Pippin at the Morranon, but this single cave Troll held the entire fellowship at the at bay. That is the worst side of Peter Jackson. I hated that battle scene already in the trailer to the movie, because it was just action for show, instead of a buildup to the great confrontation with the balrog. Less is more sometimes.
That line had me grinning from ear to ear. When I first watched it, my father burst out laughing because he'd had players in his D&D games utter lines just like that.
@@eyesofthecervino3366 Plus the weight of the Balrog! Whip wrapped around legs, Balrog holding on to whip…. Gandalf knew he was toast. That he held n long enough for that “fly you fools” was both epic and, sadly, massively unlikely but it’s a story. Shouted as he fell-more realistic. Of course, I *like* it as written (which Jackson matched in the film). Who wouldn’t? I like it and hate it-almost threw the book across the room the first time I read it. But I was twelve and losing Gandalf was just too personal… 😢
That doesn’t work, he literally fought a demon of fire and darkness for days and killed it, he has superhuman strength, the best explanation for the movie is that he wanted to kill the balrog to get rid of a threat to middle earth rather than being to weak to pull himself up.
You're forgetting that Jackson isn't filming just for Tolkein fans. He's also telling the story for people who have only the vaguest idea of the books. Yes, there are things he changed, a lot. But he succeeded where Ralph Bakshi failed. And I will always love that he made "Middle-Earth" a character in the movies. The landscapes the cast moves through... so amazing. New Zealand really shines there.
@@jachyra9 What impossible arrogance. You don't think that maybe it might be *_you_* that failed to understand? No, that couldn't happen could it? It must be _everyone else_ that's wrong, not you. Never you.
@@stickiedmin6508 - No. It's not arrogance, little one. It's simply reading comprehension. Of course you're putting words in my mouth here: I never said it was italicized everyone else who's wrong. You did. Because baby can't form a cogent argument and feels threatened.
I think it makes much more sense for Frodo to be stabbed by an orc rather than the troll. Even if mithril can stop the troll's spear, it was a shirt. It's flexible. The spear wouldn't have pierced him, but the troll would have broken several ribs, easily. Even with the mithril, Frodo would have had severe internal injuries, so he'd still be dead.
In the book, even with the stab being by an orc instead of a troll, Frodo was still moderately injured, though not dangerously. The book describes Frodo's injuries thus: "There was a dark and blackened bruise on Frodo's right side and breast. Under the mail, there was a shirt of soft leather, but at one point the rings had been driven through it into the flesh. Frodo's left side also was scored and bruised where he had been hurled against the wall."
@@DamonNomad82 yeah, even in the movie, when we see Frodo shirtless in Cirith Ungol, he has a bruise, but my point was that a troll is so much bigger than an orc. Even if the spear didn't pierce him, he still should have died from the impact.
I think you have to allow a little "elven rope" in the logic. I've had the EXACT same issues. There's still a creature three times to size of a gorilla stabbing you on loose chain.
Scene from The Halls of Mandos Gandalf: That really got out of hand. Balrog: Yeah that escalated quickly. Gandalf: Sorry about my friends waking you up. Balriog: Eh, sorry I was so grumpy. Gandalf: So we cool? Balrog: We cool bro. Gandalf: Dad is gonna be pissed. Balrog: I'll probably be grounded. Gandalf: Lucky. I'll probably have to go back and babysit. Balrog: You better change into your nice clothes. You know how he is.
When the balrog arrived, Mandos would have immediately kicked him into the Outer Darkness with Morgoth. Gandalf/Olorin would have gone before Manwe to get new instructions, and permission to use more of his own innate powers -- and taking Saruman off the wizards' list. Maybe the Valar held a quick council to discuss how it was all going.... In any case, Galadriel knew he'd be back, which is why she sent out scouts to find him.
A thing to note about the spell-duel is that when the door explodes the ceiling of the chamber also collapses, which is why it doesn't immediately follow them.
I don't think that's huge at all. By that logic, discussing a CRAPPY film that was made 20 years ago would also be "huge". And why would anybody NOT discuss a movie made 20 years ago or more unless it was as amazing as Lord of the Rings? That makes no sense. It's this same fallacious non-logic that people apply when they say a movie is X years old and therefore spoiler warnings need not be given. Or the classic "how can a movie from X years ago be THIS good?", as if it's youth, not passion, creativity, resources, artistry, talent and good writing that determines whether a movie is good. Apply that fallacy to books and you will rightfully be called a clown. A better thing to say about lord of the rings (the movies) is that the techniques, actor skill, set design, dress design, visual storytelling and world-building is so amazing that it is essentially timeless. A universal classic. The movie can be a hundred years old and will still essentially be one of, if not THE greatest achievements in filmmaking and a must watch for all humans on the planet. THAT, I would say, IS huge.
It's a classic, probably a timeless one. I wouldn't be surprised if people still discuss LotR in 100 years like we do "Birth of a Nation," but for better reasons. I suspect it will be considered a cultural high water mark for many, many decades. Since, almost literally everything in the modern era has been polluted by the same kind of the most superficial pro-establishment political messaging imaginable. We are entering into a nigh unprecedented period of political suppression, not only of speech but of thought itself which is already obliterating the quality of new Western cultural artifacts. I don't think the West will rediscover the importance of freedom of speech until a dominant global East has a cultural renaissance based on the global West of twenty years ago and justly mocks the West what it did to itself in this period.
@kevincanning3051 are you a fan of the extended works of Tolkien, finished by Chris Tolkien that the show draws from? Most of the criticism comes from the fact that the show strays so far from the books. Not in the usual ways, but ways that were actually fairly offensive to the most avaid fans. I happen to be someone who didn't actually enjoy the Silmarillion at all and quite enjoys the show. However, I don't think that's the best way to judge quality. The show *is* bad because it tramples all over the utterly beautifully constructed world JRR Tolkien made. I feel like I'm doing something mildly sacrilegious when I watch it.
In my headcanon, Gandalf didn't even touch any of the stairs, he just rocketed straight down the staircase and landed noseflat before the others. Then he stood up, wiped the dust off and said "Alright, that's done."
Wish they would have kept the part from the book where Aragorn brings his sword down on the orc chieftain's head so hard it literally splits his helm (and his head) in half with a shower of white sparks. Fucking epic!
They put the more gory stuff in the extended versions. After all, Newline had to get a rating that would allow kids into the movies during the inital run. Even with violence, there's only so much the raters will allow.
@@hecate235 The entire reason they got around the rating in the first place, is that most of the gorey, brutal scenes happen to fictional creatures (orcs etc.) and the violence on anything human is mild to nonexistant in the theatre cut. Like Chicken above me said, Aragorn still literally decapitates an Orc, he literally skewers Lurtz with his Sword and decapitates him as well, you see the head fucking flying off. There's just not an explosion or a gushing of blood shown. So as long as they would have kept it relatively bloodless on screen, they absolutely could have gotten away with the splitting a head through a helmet scene.
I do think the counter curse thing would have been an epic moment especially as the movies were so good at making spells sound so powerful and well fankly good to the ear. Like when you hear Saruman doing the spells on the mountain, Arwen with the horse wave or when you hear Sauron is speaking the black speech in the background at Rivendale.
Yes but it would water down the highpoint of the movie, peter jackson wanted it to be an epic last stand battle the likes we have never seen. I think he made a good choice in doing that, and also gandalf being aware of the balrog before moria is better for the movie, because it creates tension and fear and it fits well because of the flashback with saruman where he tells gandalf how the dwarves dug to deep, and unleashed the bane of durin.
My favorite part of the extended edition appendices is when they talk about the scene of the Fellowship running down the stairs in Moria. Apparently, the whole 5 min sequence was never scripted, and the actual screenplay never said anything but "the Fellowship run down some stairs." Which means the "Nobody tosses a Dwarf" line was a total ad lib. Thank you John Rys Davies.
Something that wasn't mentioned is that the East Door of the Chamber of Marzabul collapses after the Gandalf and the Balrog fight over it, so they aren't immediately followed. When they get to the large hall they emerge on the other side of the flaming fissure, which the Orcs had meant to trap them before the bridge, than the Orcs had expected, which means that the Orcs can't follow them. The Balrog has two trolls who build a makeshift bridge out of stone slabs across the fissure so he can cross through the flames.
Ah that's the logistics of the scene that always confused me as a kid when I read it. Thank you for laying it out for us! So *that's* why that fire was there, and that's what those trolls were doing.
@@stefanol7814 Yes, you're right, makes sense: a balrog wouldn't need to worry about fire. I just never made the connection as a kid reading these books) between the fire being created as a trap to fence the Fellowship in, and that they surprised the orcs by getting around the fire via the large hall on another level.
I thought to comment on tis too. Havin say that, Sir Ian McKellen’s “YOU SHALL NOT PASS!!!” is unsurpassable & I wouldn’t haf Peter Jackson do it any other way
@@TheAlmostGothic he does, I had forgotten. he referenced the line as he breaks the bridge in the book in correctly. Great scene in the movie and my understanding is McKellan simply said the line wrong
The movie version is more appropriate visually and dramatically. In the book he doesn't shout it, but states it as a fact, since that is how Maiar magic works. It's not usually fire bolts and flashy, but just changing how the reality is in the world. Another example more true to the book's concept is Gandalf telling Saruman that his staff is broken, and it breaks, or when he tries to release Theoden from the aging spell. So with the balrog, he was just setting up something similar to the door spell where the balrog wouldn't be able to go further.
@@jimvaiknoras7822 Yes, I know all the arguments. I participated in a debate many years ago. I won't reveal which side I argued on. I also debated whether Tolkien's elves have pointed ears and whether The Silmrillion is canonical. Again, I won't reveal the sides I took.
Balrog would win this fight without much struggle, however, the odds became increasingly against him, when he fell, which not only badly damaged him, but extinguished his fire. Gothmog, the lord of Balrogs, literally drowned in a huge fountain. Durin's Bane survived the fall into the abyss lake. I'd say Gandalf won because the Balrog got extremely weary due to elemental hazards. It's not to downplay Gandalf's bravery and strength, but to highlight how monstrous Bane was.
@@jachyra9 - Apart from The Exorcist, you just cannot recreate a book scene for scene as a movie. The changes made in The Lord of the Rings are almost all an improvement for the audio/visual medium (ghost army at Pelennor Fields being the exception there).
@@RictusHolloweye - "you just cannot recreate a book scene for scene as a movie" I don't know why you and so many other people like proclaiming this. Because it has nothing to do with anything I said. A literary adaptation doesn't have to be an exact replica of the book in order to sustain fidelity to it. Team Jackson obviously had no interest in doing so to The Lord of the Rings, but that's mostly due to the fact that they didn't understand it.
@@jachyra9 Books can do things movies can't. In the book, the Rohirrim arrive at Minas Tirith, and Tolkein immeidately backs up to follow them to the Pellennor Fields. You can't "back up" in a movie during action sequences.
The scene with The Fellowship didn' really happen the way it did in the script. The script just said "The Fellowship ran down the stairs of Khazad-Düm". It got extended thanks to Peter Jackson seeing a drawing that conceptual artist Alan Lee had done of the stairs, which had a break in the stair. That gave him the idea of having an action sequence there with the orcs shooting arrow at them while they jumped and so on. They made a pre-viz of the scene (one thing that they didn't use from it was at the beginning of the stairs when Frodo runs the first set, he almost stumbles and nearly falls off the edge and nearly drops The Ring but Aragorn managed to grab him and Frodo catches The Ring in time) which they show to the actors before they shot it (which was on the last day of Principle Photography at the end of 2000, just before the Christmas break). Gimli's line "Nobody tosses a dwarf!" was in fact made AFTER he did the "Toss me" scene in The Two Towers. Also, the "Not the beard" line was an improvisation of John Rhys-Davies as he shouted it to Orlando Bloom, as he was concerned that he would rip John's beard off his face, which would take 40 mintues for the makeup team to reapply. Peter Jackson found the line comical, hence why it got stuck in the movie.
@@talstory Remember that a film is a visual medium. A lot of things are good in a novel, and don't do well on the screen, and vice versa. The flight on the stairs scene makes perfect sense to me for a film adaptation. The part that I didn't like was the beard scene, as it further solidifies Gimli's Sesame Street goofy/comic relief change.
My only problem with the stair scene is that nobody believes that Frodo and really also Aragorn are going to die at this point, so it falls flat. They should have had Boromir and Pippin's lives hang in the balance, that would have been much more impactful (especially since in the movie it's sort of Pippin's fault that they are in this situation).
True, but the pressure at that point comes from Durin's Bane being hot on their tails. It's a time bomb -style of scene with a puzzle, outside interference and a fuse. @@magiv4205
I doubt Gandalf was thinking, "I guess it's my destiny to kill the Balrog." He was just doing his best to stay alive, and staying alive meant hewing the Balrog until one of them was dead.
Gandalfs agenda wasnt just to end Saurons reign, it was to secure the world for the "mortal" peoples. The events of the hobbit were triggered by him to take out the dragon, so he cant join forces with Sauron, and he also chose to take the Balrog out of the equation for the same reason.
To be fair, if you pay attention, he gets hits and kills in here and there. He also saves Sam a number of times. I think the biggest offender is the Weathertop scene, but I understand why they did it.
I can understand why they cut it out of the movie (trying to make it a more tense, fast-paced chase scene and all), but the mystery of the counterspell that nearly broke Gandalf leading up to the big reveal that it was a Balrog, which is a big deal considering they were essentially Morgoth's praetorian guards from the First Age, all along is a much better buildup than just having the Orcs run away from the "big, buff fire monster."
Like a lot of key moments in Jackson's trilogy, he chose to accentuate the immediate drama of the moment rather than pay service to Tolkien lore. I think this was the right move, since book readers will sort of automatically fill in the blanks and be rewarded with an objectively awesome representation of the Balrog, while non-readers will simply feel the gravity of a powerful and scary being confronting our heroes. It works on both levels and really shows how much care was put into the adaptation.
I don't think orcs and Balrog are on the same side. Neither the Balrog nor the orcs of Moria are under Sauron's command, and it makes sense for orcs to be terrified, just as much as it makes sense for them and Balrog to tolerate each other like in the book. Edit: correction, I think orcs are actually serving Sauron, but the rest of the point stands.
I think it is important when we compare Peter Jackson's LotR to Tolkein that we remember that Tolkein wrote a book, not a screen play. He had no skill in writing movie scripts and made no effort to make his books work well on a movie screen.
Gandalf and the Balrog are practically distant cousins; They (and Sauron) were all Maiar (lesser gods) who all had a role in singing the world in to being before there were elves, dwarves or humans. Some Maiar were greater or lesser beings or were so specialized in their interests that they practically became part of the scenery of the world that they were creating.
Yeah the book balrog is really different. It has a mane as well and is described as a large man made of shadow with fire wreathed around it with only the tips of the mane on fire.
@@jotnarymir1393Not a large man. It says it’s “man-like” in stature but far greater in size. And Tolkien left it very vague. Because he allows his work to be left up to interpretation. It’s referred to as a demon. And in the Silmarillion, it’s stated that they are demonic looking in nature. So having horns and wings isn’t out of the question.
@@Shadowrulzalways First, nowhere in Silmarillion or any other writing, are balrogs described as having wings (or horns), though there are frequent references to fangs or claws. Second, while the description of Durin's Bane doesn't give much detail, it does say "shadow like wings", meaning, no real wings, just shadow that stretches wide. Third, Durin's Bane is the second balrog we know about that is killed by being thrown from an elevated place, which really doesn't make sense for a winged creature, unless they are a penguin or ostrich. Fourth, being a demon means absolutely nothing about their physiognomy.
One thing that I find interesting is that Gullom was trying to get west to find shire and baggins and then in moria he is lost and nearly starved till he sees the Fellowship and follows the out the way he came
I am shocked that anybody asks the question "why didn't Gandalf just climb back up onto the bridge?" as if that was a choice. Why doesn't anybody who falls off of a ledge just choose to climb back up? Gravity is not a choice. You fall because you're unable to climb back up. He was exhausted from the fight already, and he is an old man after all. Just because you can catch the edge of a ledge as you're falling doesn't mean you're capable of climbing back up. Life is not a video game. I video games, you can always climb up a ledge easily, not because it's easy, but because they didn't program any game mechanics for what happens when you fall. They make it look really easy in video games, but it's not so easy in reality.
I like the giant flame beast of the movies but I also like the book's more wizard-like, man-shaped demon wrapped in wings of shadow. This, like the book's ringwraiths, would have been harder to visualize on film though.
@@maximus3160 I didn't mean he was like an Istari. But the book calls him man-shaped and he used magic with intelligence and wasn't just a brute monster. In fact there is a lot of debate about whether he had actual wings or if the wings were only shadows
In the context of the scene, To Fly means to move with great haste. Gandalf is not telling them to use the eagles, nor did he ever have that intent. What he's saying is "Run as fast as you can."
The Balrog's whip was around Gandalf's leg, no way he could have held on or climbed up when the weight of the Balrog hit the end of the whip. Anyone who grabbed Gandalf to try to pull him up would've gone into the abyss as well.
This is a weird take... As is stated here, the ledge grab did not happen in the books, and your statement is therefore irrelevant. Why discuss the possibility of holding on to gandalf in this context? In the movies, the ledge grab DOES happen, and the whip DOESN'T stay around gandalf's leg, as is clearly visible. It falls along with the balrog almost immediately after staggering Gandalf. The scene is a bit weird. We see gandalf turn away from the bridge's ledge. Therefore, any idea that Gandalf would have willingly leapt after the balrog is absurd, he would have done so immediately if that was the case. Instead, he is grabbed and staggered, tries to climb, calls the fellowship a bunch of poopface idiots and then drops down, when that wasn't his intention earlier. From the movies we're supposed to believe, I guess, that Gandalf changed his mind, or that he felt himself slipping and decided the best course of action now was to fully let go. But neither of these explanations really are clear from the visual text, it is an ad hoc rationalization, not a piece of evidence. Therefore, people are fully justified in finding it a bit strange that Gandalf didn't just pull himself up or allow others to pull him up. Again, the balrog DIDN'T have a hold on Gandalf anymore, watch the scene again if you don't believe me.
Great video, great channel. Thanks. It's not often these days I run into a channel that is obviously not AI, has good content, and doesn't put ads every 3 minutes through the video. This is how creators should make their channels.
The movies are great and I absolutely love the books which I have read at least 12 times over the last 57 years. I feel there is one major location change from these chapters and the movies and that is Moria itself. The movies show Moria as dirty, dull, dim and rough hewn. For example in your script you describe the fellowship running down a corridor of pillars. It wasn't simply pillars it was a meticulously carved replica of Loren, down to the individual leaves. When I first read the books at age 13 I was left was a sense of how truly bad ass Dwarven craftsmanship was. It was not only beautiful, but reflective, polished, insanely detailed, reflective light beaming throughout and made to endure the ages. When I read the books I'm left with a sense of how much the Dwarves have lost, not just wealth, they lost their homeland and the holy land that was gifted to them by the Valor. A place of beauty, wonder and riches.
the Moria sequence really was what sold me with the books when i was a kid. First the western side is a maze of tunnels, wells, passage ways winding in a "bewildering" array. then after the Guard room the move along a wide and well made "high way" then they get to the "habitable parts" with great pillared halls and windows on the side of the mountain.
I think this is what it all comes down to: books vs movies. When you're writing a book you can have so much more detail, put so much more into the head of your reader, without having to worry about them getting bogged down by the details, because the reader can always just slow down a bit, reread a paragraph if it lost them, etc. When you're creating a movie you have to be mindful not to put too much exposition in, lest it feel like someone is just reading a book to you. You want to be immersed in the characters naturally discovering things as much as possible. You need to to move at a pace from scene to scene that makes sense both for the seriousness of the situation but also covering ground fast enough to tell an entire book's story in a limited amount of time. This is all to say that I think Jackson did an excellent job condensing the story, both through the script and direction, but also through post production, in such a manner that any changes like this aren't consequential. The only thing about Gandalf that we really lose in the Jackson films is his imperfection. In the movie they made him an absolute bad ass, in the books he was more human.
Frodo getting stabbed by the troll and surviving is actually one of the dumber moments in the movie. Doesn't matter if he's wearing that vest or not, it's loose chainmail. He would have been squished with every bone in his torso shattered.
@@TheAtherion As they've depicted it in the show - loose fitting mail - the stab would have crushed him whatever the material was made of. He's a tiny midget with a loose set of mail around his torso and there's a ten ton troll stabbing him with a huge spear. Due to the laws of physics, he would have literally been pressed like a grape by both sides of his armour.
IIRC, in the book, when Gandalf is spelling the door shut, and the Balrog, as yet unrecognized, uses a counter spell, not just the door fails. The room beyond caves in, which, in fact, provides time for the company to continue its escape through Moria unopposed for a time.
The way it was handled in the movie was excellent from the standpoint of cinematography… Strangely, it was one of the scenes that left me the most melancholy about the films… it was done well enough a whole generation of people who saw the movies before reading the books were not be able to create their own image of the Balrog. 😢
14:04 Also, depending on how you're holding on, you might not be able to keep your grip, especially if you aren't trained for it. You look at what his fingers have to hold onto, and after being pulled off your feet in the blink of an eye by a fire whip, chances are you're not gonna be holding on for very long. Plus it makes for a more dramatic moment. Otherwise I'm fine with how the movie did things. LoTr isn't an easy book to adapt to film, and after comparing it to the 1978 film (and book), I think PJ and crew did it best (though the 1978 one wasn't bad).
Gandalf: "Someone made a counterspell on me... Did the Hobbit leaf really clouded my mind?" Legolas: "Oi! A Balrog!" Gandalf: "Oh thank Eru it's him, not me!" But in all seriousness, I kinda like how movie made Moria to feel. Dark hallways where once life was, where any unnecessary noise can doom their travel. In the book's "Fool of a Took" moment, they just carried on, meanwhile in the movie it is shown why exactly they tried to be quiet as possible and even risking to give more light. And a rest during escape from Moria would break the intense pacing of the moment in the movie. Also, isn't it a common knowledge that Balrog was the reason why Dwarf colonies in Moria were doomed? And even if it's just Dwarf knowledge (which evident by Legolas. A WOOD Elf recognized the creature, not the Wizard), Gandalf definitely knew of history of Moria but was more afraid of Orcs than of Balrog? Doesn't really make sence to me, tbh.
key word, a wood *elf*. elves fought the balrogs before in the war of wrath, and they where legendary minions of morgoth. in fact, legolas calls it a "balrog of morgoth" correctly. glorfindel (cut from the movie) died the first time fighting one. add that elves live forever if not killed, a few eyewitnesses remained and would have told stories-heck, glorfindel may have told the tale in rivendel some time. Gimli knew it was "durin's bane", but couldn't name it beyond it being the legendary scary thing. Gandalf did recognize it when prompted "a baelrog.... what an evil fate this is, and I am already wearied!" keep in mind, that may well be the LAST of the 7-8 baelrogs that ever existed. while gandalf was literally there at the music of the ainuir when the baelrogs where formed/recruited by melkor and his discord, it's been 20-30K years since he may have personally seen one. his speech on the bridge is a divine rebuke of the monster, correctly calling it "flame of udûn". so he knows, but he didn't get a good look at it in the chamber and was badly shocked by the counterspell it fired. he may have suspected what it was and hoped he was wrong. legolas, by comparison, has very sharp eyes and has heard these stories as legend for years. his dad is 6.5K - 7K years old, which means he could have been a child at the end of the first age, just barely. (6-7K years ago). thus, he may have have had stories to tell his son legolas.
@@ShotesuPresumably Melchor had followers amongst the maiar-in addition to Sauron. It would be from those that he made the modifications (presumably permanent) that turned them into Balrogs. How many? Dunno but you’re right, it’s a finite number and reason suggests it probably is a small number (though not necessarily less than a dozen). My question is what happens to the spirit (fëa) of the original maia-if ainur/maiar have spirits in any way comparable to Ilúvatar’s children. But I fear that answer died with the author…
@@joerosenman3480 the spirit is trapped into the adopted body until the latter gets destroyed. Then depending on the residual amount of power (or of 'good' i.e. the capacity to look beyond oneself?) self-reincarnation might occur in due time. After wasting so much Morgoth can not overcome his physical destruction (execution), until the end of times. Ditto for Sauron, weakened by the end of the Ring, after dying in fall of Barad-Dur. Balrogs are probably so spiritually debased that their first death is final.
@@Thurgosh_OG That’s a reasonable supposition but I think it’s inconsistent with what we know of the fate of spirits in the world. You made me consider the entire question-so now you get the questionable benefit of my ruminations… 🌝 Of all the aspects of Tolkien’s mythological history the initial creation of the universe in which the world exists is perhaps the least known. AFAIK there aren’t multiple drafts amended and changed over time, just the one. The pre-valar spirits are amongst the greatest mysteries in Tolkien’s universe; I believe based upon his answers to inquiries “that’s how it should be.” The Valar, who are a part of the world, are more fully known, fleshed out and understood-while still being mysterious and remote. As you know, Melchor’s fate was explicitly revealed but what that means and the implications of said actions-not so much. What is clear, though, it that Melchor wasn’t killed he was expelled by an affirmative act of the Valar. Again, as I believe you know, when Eru created the world and transported his willing spirits into it to manifest the history they sang into existence it was conditioned on being a one-way journey, the only possible exit being the end of the music/world. Removing Melchor from the world meant pushing him into whatever outermost in-between existed. But again, he was alive-contemplating the death of an angelic spirit wasn’t part of the formula! Sauron can’t die; he can be (and was) profoundly diminished. Gandalf/Olórin was deliberately diminished in being incarnated as one of the Istari. When his body was, in fact, killed his spirit apparently returned to Mandos where the Valar took appropriate action. But from that I infer *All* beings have spirits and if they can die those spirits-once separated from bodies-go to Mandos. This structural system would have had to be confirmed by JRRT and AFAIK wasn’t but then, nothing I know of disputes it either; I believe it is the most rational explanation. So what happens to modified maiar that die? Those the good Valar modified in service to Eru can be restored (Olórin’s presumed fate). Those that chose to follow the path of rebellion in defiance of Eru’s plan and will… they still presumably have spirits. To be consistent with what we know, I believe it makes more sense if those spirits (however corrupted) return to Mandos where they essentially are imprisoned until the end of time. What then of Saruman? One of the greater tragedies in the story since he was a good maiar that volunteered to help the Valar in a righteous cause and accepted diminishment as a price for service. He didn’t handle the loss of status well and later, was corrupted by Sauron turning to evil. When he was killed, the scene in which his spirit appears to lean towards the West and is rejected, is symbolically meaningful. But what must have really happened? Clearly the Valar weren’t going to welcome his spirit back and restore him. More likely his spirit goes to Mandos and waits, along with the Balrogs and… Was Sauron in Mandos too? That depends on weather he had a body or the means to maintain his spirit in the world.
When Jackson's Balrog opens its mouth, we see fire (or combustion) akin to that which is underneath a space shuttle as it's 2000 tonne platform-weight gets pushed upwards by 35 million newtons of thrust. THAT'S power!! .....and the visual we get is tremendously satisfying and foreboding. It also makes us realise just how powerful Gandalf must be, especially equipped with "Narya" the ring of fire....shrewdly given to him by Cirdan for Gandalf's, as yet.... unforeseen labours within middle-earth.
The Moria orcs still shoot arrows after The Felowship when they're at the bidge but it happens after Gandalf falls into the abyss. Right after Frodo screaming no several times, Boromir lifts him to carry away and shouts after Aragorn, who watches in horror when Gandalf falls. Arrows begin to fly and we see Goblin archers fire arrows from the other side of the chasm, which nearly misses him. Aragorn turns back and runs up the stairs to the others to the eastern entrance of Moria.
I didn't take it that the orcs and the Balrog were on the same side in the movie. I liked that it showed that even the orcs knew to steer clear of it; Moria is HUGE so it makes sense that they'd rarely encounter it otherwise.
The balrog was a beast that gandolf solo’s. It was character development showing how Gandalf was more than we perceive. Legolas nor Aragorn could do the same. Gandalf is the anchor and he arrives precisely as he means.
@@jachyra9 Because someone took the stores seriously. I read the books in 1997. And I had no visabile component to the love of the books. The "Hobbit" and tje "Lord of the Rings" cartoons were ok. But nobody looked at them seriously. I just love that some writer / director took the source material seriously.
@@jachyra9 I guess your opinion is in the minority. Considering the 12 Oscar nominations for Return of the King. Apparently some people thought they were pretty good. Oh, and I had a typo. It was 1977 when I first read them. I was 7 years old. And I read them at least once a year for at least 10 years... while playing DND.
@@lonnieeastin6401 - "I guess your opinion is in the minority." How do you know this exactly? And even if it is, what difference would that make? It doesn't make my opinion invalid. "Considering the 12 Oscar nominations for Return of the King." The Oscars aren't bestowed based on the quality of the film. Everyone knows this, or should, by now. The members of the Academy don't even watch the films they nominate, and I have no doubt that none of them at the time ever read The Lord of the Rings. You, like all those you believe whose opinions constitute a majority, are attempting to defend a literary adaptation based on trophies doled out by a very small group of people who don't care about the film you care about. Think about that. "Apparently some people thought they were pretty good." Good for those some people. You have epically failed to form a cogent argument. " I was 7 years old. And I read them at least once a year for at least 10 years... while playing DND." Okay. I've been rereading The Lord of the Rings every year since 1982. The same year I started playing D&D. There is no such thing as "DND."
If I remember correctly, in the book, Aragorn and Boromir run toward Gandalf at some point during the Balrog encounter, which I was glad to read. In the movie, it seemed out of character for them to not try to help. But maybe I'm having a fever dream and not remembering anything correctly 😂
In the movies, they both here him say "This foe is beyond you all". Also, they had a very fragile hobbit wearing the "One Ring" Can't help Gandalf. Must save hobbits. IMHO
I think Tolkien's original text would've been far better. Aragorn being surprised at Frodo surviving, finding out it was a balrog at the end, while Legolas first recognised it would've been better but the movie's event was entertaining and it's still the best representation of Lord of the Rings.
About Gandalf’s destiny… He (like all the Istari) were sent with a specific purpose: rally the free people of middle-Earth against Sauron’s return. Not establish good governance, or inter-species commerce. Not chasing down Morgoth’s old evil. Preparing the people of the world against Sauron’s return. Full stop. In this light, Saruman couldn’t have gone more wrong. But as for Gandalf, with the One Ring found, his mission took on an acute urgency-resisting Sauron meant seeing to the One Ring’s destruction. In LOTR terms, that meant helping the Ring-bearer, and that meant helping Frodo. Gandalf-as best we can tell-was a model of loyalty and faithful to his superiors (the Valar) and his mission. Diverting to a side mission when his primary task was mature and in full focus would have been a betrayal. So… no, Gandalf did not choose to die on the bridge in Moria, and given any chance he would have found a way to continue traveling with the Fellowship. But that’s not how things worked out, so he made the best of a bad situation and-since he was likely to die from the fall or from the Balrog, he fought to the death as a final, beneficial act. Gandalf could reasonably believe his spirit (fëa) would survive but would have to suppose his mission was over. One supposed, when his spirit arrived in Valinor, a conference was held with Manwë and Varda and… the Valar reached out and healed Gandalf’s broken body sufficiently to house his spirit again and he was returned, upgraded and with a new mission: to participate with the free people in contesting against Sauron and Sauron-inspired evil up to but short of fighting with Sauron directly.
As I commented in his last video, the timeline Peter Jackson used of 4 days instead of a couple makes more sense. However, having Boramir be the one to wake up the Watcher would make more sense as it shows his fallibility as a man, and gives him more personality then just that guy who gets corrupted by the One Ring and then redeems himself in a last Noble Sacrifice. Just another Sean Bean character that dies. I'd have also liked to have had Frodo be more heroic here, with him being the one to drive off the Trill as in the book, and give Mari his big brain moment at the door. That helps establish Mari as the smart one, Sam as the Loyal one, and Frodo as the badass hero of the hobbits. Pippen's the young one who's curiosity leads him into trouble, but also allows him to discover useful things, such as when he gazes into the Palantir and discovers Sauron's plans for the attack on Minas Tirith, and Pippen shows is own strength of character to resist Sauron's will. Showing the Fellowship being chased right out of Moria, with only the hateful sunlight stopping the orcs from pursuing any further would keep the scene frantic right to the end.
Despite i love re-discovering how richer are the books, thanks to you series, we have to give back to Peter Jackson that awesome fact that he somehow managed to adapt succesfully a story that had the reputation to be impossible to adapt in movie(s). We're lucky :)
The film's interpretation is cinema so perfect you can taste it. In the theatre, everyone was on the edge of their seats. What an amazing film. Had they tried to handle it differently it wouldn't have had the same impact and it wouldn't be the trilogy we know. The world is a better place for Jackson's interpretation.
@@human678 - No. Peter Jackson did not make anything within the vicinity of masterpieces. He made middling sword and sorcery movies from a brilliant, idiosyncratic novel that is the antithesis of middling sword and sorcery.
I love how despite movies removing a lot of references to legendarium (original book has many mentions of Luthien, Earendil and such), Gandalf still recites his full boast, with Secret fire and flames of Udun.
One thing that I always had a chuckle at is the cave troll stabbing Frodo with the spear. A creature of that mass jabbing a spear of that size into your torso, well that mithril shirt might not break but it's being forced right into your body in probably a more painful way than just being stabbed.
I choose to think that mithril doesn’t behave like any substance we know. It’s both a non-Newtonian fluid (the harder you hit it, the harder it gets) and multi-dimensional (it absorbs energy and then spends that energy somewhere else, eg as a fire burning in a pocket dimension). So Frodos shirt would have its own pocket dimension. The only way to get through it would be to overwhelm the pocket dimensions entropy.
Having read the books several times, I do remember much of what your cover here or are reminded as you narrate. I remember him being weakened by the counter spell for example. The power of the visual media is strong and what I recall from the movies is what first comes to mind in most cases. Impressive movie making on Jackson's part. This tells me it is time for a fresh reading of the books. 👍
Gandalf was the more powerful of the two. In the book, he falls through the abyss clinging to the Balrog, hacking at it with Glamdring, until they both hit the water at the very bottom. Then the Balrog RAN AWAY. Gandalf says he only managed to find his way out of the deeps because he chased the Balrog through the twists and turns and then, finally, up the endless stair to the top of the mountain.
The book account of Frodo's stabbing makes a lot of more sense. He would have died from the troll's attack as portrayed in the movies, even with the hidden Mithril coat
12:35 I think the decision to have Gandalf cling to the bridge and whisper his last words was a change for the better compared to the novel. It made the scene far more dramatic as we saw him desperately trying to hang on, only to realize that this is futile, so he instead delivers his final words of advice before falling, ostensibly, to his doom! It also allowed us to see the inevitably writ in his face. Having him yell these words as he fell (as he does in the novel) would not have had the same emotional impact on screen. It's also clear in the film that the Balrog catches Gandalf with his whip, which is what prevents him from climbing back onto the bridge. This shows us, visually, just how dangerous the Balrog is, because even in defeat it reaches up from the depths to drag Gandalf down with it. Regarding the spells and counter-spells, the movies avoid all mention of such. In PJ's adaptation there are no magic spells to be cast. Instead, magic is an inherent part of the world, which manifests as a power possessed by few. It's more akin to "The Force" in Star Wars.
I woulda liked if they had explained the fate of Oin and Ori in Balin's tomb from the book and woulda liked if he handed the book to Gimli, but I kinda prefer the movie version of Gandalf VS the Balrog due to the fact that he, a great powerful and wise wizard, should know it was there, given Saruman knew from the Dwarves' folly and spoke it to him, be it telepathically or in previous years before Saruman's betrayal. Him dreading going in as he knows he might be destined to fight and defeat the Balrog but might lose his life in the process shows Gandalf, for all his angelic power, is still human with feelings of fear. He's scared of going into Moria and yet is willing to if that was Frodo's decision. Also, I know this is getting a bit ahead of this, but I wish the movie gave us the Slime Balrog. Seeing Gandalf swim to shore to catch his breath but then the beast screams as it's flames are slimed over and he fights and chases it up to the top of the mountain where it reignites it's flames woulda been extra awesome.
When you really put it into perspective, Gandalf the grey entire destiny on Middle Earth for thousands of years, spending his time with men, elves and hobbits was leading up to this one singular purpose. And he only had just realized it on that bridge. It was To end the Balrog of Moria.
I haven't seen the movie in 15 years, and I haven't read to book in 20, but honestly a lot of these details I had remembered the book version and thought that's what happened in the movie. I thought Aragorn had carried Frodo after he was stabbed until Frodo told him he could walk. I should have known that was from the book, because I remember the internal monologue of him being surprised because he thought he was carrying a very brave but very dead hobbit, and that wouldn't come across in a movie.
Films are not books, and books are not films. What Tolkien did was a masterpiece. So was Jackson's movies. Neither pales from the existence of the other. That said, thanks for the analysis.
A lot of people don't realize that what works in a book doesn't always work in a movie. With books, the reader's imagination supplies the details, and everyone imagines things a little different. A movie is based off the imaginations of the people making it, the director, script writers, special effects team, etc. And the books have loads of chapters, passages, and songs that simply couldn't be put in a movie or people would be bored. Long scenes of people hiking through forests, mountains, and caves for hours don't make for good drama. Can you imagine trying to include all those interminable songs in the movies? Nobody would watch that and they add nothing to the plot.
i actually really liked Gandalf knowing about the balrog prior. Gandalf in the movies was sort of a father figure to the group. he was the wise leader who could be turned to in a crisis. to have a rock solid character like that terrified of a yet unseen foe serves to add just that much more gravitas to the scene. when the demon is finally revealed, it does not disappoint. the only change i might have added was a few lines from the balrog itself to distinguish it as a true malevolent intelligence capable of it's own will rather than more of a beast or a force of nature as depicted in the movies. it would have been so menacing to have had the balrog whisper one of Gandalf's ancient names, challenging him to fight, which would have also added more of a reason for Gandalf to pursue the demon into the deep.
The Balrog is exactly the same as Gandalf, it just sided with Morgoth. The movie had to show this, it would have been strange any other way. It was also pretty cool because the hobbits just assumed Gandalf created cool fireworks, and they watched him go toe to toe with something they couldn’t imagine existed.
I think no matter what interpretation of the Balrog you use, they're the coolest and most badass thing in Tolkien's works specifically because, yes three of them have been killed, but every single person to kill a Balrog died to do it.
@@Thurgosh_OGI saw a video about that. His Mouth of Sauron was way closer to the book too, but turned into Skeletor rather quickly. Still a badass moment when he says "You fool! Don't you know when you stand before Death?"
To be fair, if Peter Jackson had followed true to the books for Gandalfs scenes it wouldn't have really worked as in the book Gandalf is much more powerful a wizard than in the film, but leaving Tm Bomberdill and Goldberry out of the films completely was sacrilidge IMO!
I first read The Lord of the Rings when I was 11 or 12 years old. I loved it. I also enjoyed the flawed animated version. When the Peter Jackson movies came out I was blown away. Even more so when I watched the extended editions. The Moria scenes gave me chills. Jackson may have chopped and changed thungs but he still gave us Middle Earth.
Sir, a terrific video; my complements! As for Peter Jackson's on-screen interpretation, I'm OK with most of the changes, but not with the loss of the Wizard Duel between Gandalf and the Balrog (plus a few others). I clearly remember a cheer going up from the crowd in the theater when the four hobbits joined the fight; it's been long enough that I've forgotten many details, but I remember that much. IMO, they all acquitted themselves well - clearly proving that they were not just four loads that needed to be constantly protected - and the changes to Frodo's specific actions did not diminish him. Also - and it really requires stopping the DVD-or-Blu-Ray to see it, but Pippin was the one who stabbed the cave troll in the neck, which caused the troll to open its mouth, thereby enabling Legolas to shoot the kill-shot, which gave Pippin a much-needed opportunity to undo his previous mistake(s). I do believe that Gandalf-vs-Balrog at the chamber door should have been retained. Obviously, an entire hour of walking can't be shown afterwards - practicality demanded time / event compression - but such a display would IMO have been much, much more interesting (and logical) than the collapsing stairway sequence, which just seemed to go on, and on, and on... Also, unlike in the book, we the audience would have seen and heard the duel in real-time, so the expository dialogue from Gandalf, that was necessary in the novel, would have been easily omitted in the movie. Gandalf clutching to the bridge with his fingernails - and then, very clearly letting go - always annoyed me. It annoyed me when I saw the movie for the first time, and it annoys me right now, watching it in your video. I guess that if Sir Ian wanted his dramatic closeup, or if Peter Jackson wanted to give Sir Ian a dramatic closeup, I shouldn't complain; I shouldn't, but I will! IMO the fire-covered-by-hardened-lava effect for the Balrog still works well, even after all of these years, but, entirely in retrospect, I wish that the Balrog would have been depicted as several recent artists have painted; man shaped, but somewhat ill-defined, as if we can't really see under the flames and soot. Also, and it took a while for me to realize this, but the Balrog as filmed was a bit too large to navigate through much of Moria. A troll-sized Balrog - or perhaps a little smaller - would still have been terrifying, particularly with the excellent sound effects that accompanied it.
for the most part I don't mind the small changes in the movie, it's usually done well without sacrificing too much meaning and content. This scene is a bit more logical and nuanced in the books and more exciting in the movie. The Witch King breaking Gandalf the White's staff in the film however is a rare change that's definitely for the worse. I'm glad they gave a few more lines to Boromir here, it builds up his character a little more and makes his death a little more shocking. It is pretty epic that by the end of Fellowship, 2 of the main protagonists have died. It ups the stakes for the rest of the story where miraculously most of the main heroes still survive.
Another change that isn't mentioned, is the chasm of fire. In the books, the Orcs try to corral the fellowship onto the wrong side of the chamber, separated from the bridge by the fissure that crosses the entire chamber. But the Fellowship doesn't go the way the Orcs planned, so they come out on the right side of the fissure. The Orcs then find themselves trapped on the wrong side, and need to create bridges which buys the Fellowship some time to escape.
I rather like the book variant more as it gives us a direct “What if there was an evil wizard.” Before we then get to see “what if a Wizard became evil.” Two questions that I think many fans would be asking if we hadn’t been gifted the answers. What does an Evil Istari look like? A Balrog. What if an Istari turns evil? Saruman.
