PHP will make you poor? StackOverflow 2023 Results 

what i exactly plan to do ^ lmfao

its very hard to get job in america outside the america

how to absolutely destabilize your local non-first world economy 101

@@jakubnowak7091go to america -> find remote job -> return home

"Yeah, so we were talking about adjusting salaries based on the country of the employee to establish a _fair_ system and..."

Exactly, these income comparisons are shallow, for the very reason of wildly contrasting cost of living among each country in the poll. Perhaps this is a video more to the entertainment side of things.

here in my country in Europe, we pay for cars just as much as in USA while my salary is ~6x less than in USA. When I compared utility bills against the monthly salary in IT field in Arkansas and here, they are left with proportionally more money than I am. But true about the healthcare, it sucks a weiner

Most US tech companies offer you insurance plans as part of your employment package, I pay ~$20 per paycheck for healthcare, dental, vision, life insurance.

@@nielsbohr7962 just curious, are they Dunder Mifflin level of health coverage?

@@brunesi not totally true, the usa is the richest country in the world after all

makes sense

@@froggin-zp4nr I guess one of the reasons is AWS Whisper is currently free (although I'm sure they will start charging when they grow a big enough network)

#theprimeagen

Honestly the graph needed a capability to sort by blue, red and difference. As it stands, its just sorted by blue and the line indicating difference doesn't mean much. What Fireship said about desired=hyped is one aspect of it. One look at the C# related techs shows C# is like Dota2, the users(devs) of C# heavily admire it because there is far less issues to complain to lower admiration, while other users who never tried are also largely people who either have not heard of C# or thinks it is a Java copycat with worse issues. One can look at Blazor and MAUI mentions too where people barely know about it except C# fellows, who incidentally heavily desires it.

yeah becuase of its subscription pricing.

these surveys are for fun only, they can't check people aren't lying (ya, I earn over $200k a minute doing r34c7 bro, cos state management is my whole day). And they suffer heavily from participation bias (a reason react ++ are at the top of the charts.)

Html wasn’t at the top, that was a subsection of the leaderboard, he was just showing it was higher than php

What? You ever heard of backend?

HTML is not even a programming language!!! How it can be compared to PHP?

@elgoogssie3969 what is a program?

True, it is like measuring your salary by the language you are using the most. English speakers would have much higher salaries than Central Thai speakers (the official language of Thailand).

They should consider normalisign the salaries to PPP (Purchasing Power Parity) and not only absolute values

Qez qaar ujbb

Same, we build on gcp laravel app with millions of requests daily. Frontend is nextjs with react. Of course my salary is not that low to wordpress developers.

@xIcarus227 people getting swayed by statistics imagine HTML CSS being the highest paid programming language

One thing this chart doesn't do well is allow you to split the data based on multiple criteria. But you are very right about your point here with Flutter

also because mainly startups use flutter, i havent seen any well paying company use flutter really except like 2

@@gcash49 yeah hopefully more companies will start picking it up. its a good sign when banks are willing to use it.

@@BooleanDev one of my biggest bank in the country use Flutter and even some government app use to as well. It's surprising given that the vast majority of programmer (I live in Thailand) still use JavaScript and jQuery. (You'd think they would use react native but nope. It's either that or Native for some reason.)

yeah i agree developing app with flutter takes less time and you can stills get native like experience

@sadik.h119 it was accidental lol. This 3rd rate ass poetry just came out.

Yeah. That also seemed very odd to me.

Flutter is very popular in China and Africa, two places that have generally lower salaries than the US. The US is very React Native (and platform native) focused.

@@barcode6297 Nothing odd. In Ruby, you can do all sort of thing. In Dart: app for phone> That's all.

seemed very odd to me, too, Flutter apps charge $13,500 for a simple front-end

@FloatCarboxylic what does that mean?

Right now with 8.0+ it's a really nice language. Problem is not php, problem is that is very easy to start with (for beginners) and it leads to lots of bad code. But there is a lot of good code as well xd

PHP is not necessarily bad. It's just that we've been using it for decades and already want something new.

PHP IS DEAD -> Says the community every year, and every year I still see more PHP jobs

you only need is a good self marketing of your expertise on php. gotta convince the people that you can get the job done with php. it's basically marketing.

PHP is great if you use a cool framework. I even see CakePHP doing cool stuff. Laravel is awesome.

As a part of Laravel learners community, I can say that Laravel was very simple to learn.

SOOO ME BRO LMAO

Because it's the best and surveys like this barely mean anything

Same?! Also, I'm learning I'm a sucker for a really high quality course. Started learning PHP because there's a ridiculously good free course here on RU-vid called Learn PHP The Right Way.

Is Symfony better than Laravel?

There is more php programmers who did not know how to program, and there is more html/css/javascript developers who someway get their boat on the water, but html/css/javascript is atleast 90% of the UI development, even if you use whatever technology, you will end up making the UI en those technologies, so it is not far why it is better payed html if it is on almost every technology interface used, it is like a hammer, is just the most useful tool because you use it and it do its work almost everywhere.

I think it's more that this is also beginner/amateur language. If you're a self-taught amateur you're more likely to use PHP and learn it to the level you can get a paying job eventually than say C++ or Rust. And this is great, if you can go from "I make $0 on programming" to "I make $x k on writing PHP" it doesn't really matter than you would have made $1.5x k as C++ developer if you got college degree and some professional training - like sure, but the effort needed to get more money would have been significant (and in practice you'd most likely fail to self-teach yourself C++ to the point where you can make meaningful projects so either you're super lucky and you're hired before you gained meaningful skills or you keep making $0, $0 that would not be reflected in these surveys). So long story short - are you well-trained engineer with good degree who has solid foundation and couple years of training already? Pick some modern well-paying language. Are you learning from scratch? Pick language that will get you to your first paying job the fastest (and potentially switch later)

PHP is actually popular at Euro countries. In France, PHP is the most popular programming language

???

​@@AnsisPlepiswrite out the question in full. People like you should be banned from using any electronics more complex than a toaster

here is one :) i mean, it puts bread on the table... everything is fancy when you write a "TODO app", when you take it to the real world where you need to satisfy ideas of your stakeholders that they pulled out of their ass PHP has proven itself over and over through the years...

I still love writing PHP. Then CSS and HTML.

Been using php since 2008. Currently running a site with 3000/req per second with it. It's a very good language based on C. I don't care what other people think.

And Symfony, Laravel exists thanks to Symfony ;)

@@Glifaus Do you prefer Symfony to Laravel? I've used Slim and Laravel before but never Symfony

@@agesnipes I find Symfony has less magic in it and makes more sense. Have used Lara for years but wanted something that was more traditional. It's down to a matter of taste really, they both accomplish their tasks well.

@@gezenews i do find the market a bit saturated with jr devs (or just fairly unskilled devs, as some jrs are pretty solid). I also think php has always had the issue of a lack of guard rails. there's a LOT of spaghetti code out there.. I'm sure I've contributed over my 20 years haha

@@Glifaus I recall using symphony a VERY long time ago... I remember not liking it. but that was back when I was writing procedural php and "frameworks" were a newfangled distraction

yup

Salesforce?

Matlab itself has a much better developer experience than octave due to the matlab IDE. They both still suck compared to more computer-science programming languages like Python. The audience for matlab is mostly non-CS professionals that do technical work

what do you mean? Matlab is my favorite programming language 🤓

MatLAB is fantastic for prototyping DSP code and doing heavy number crunching in a pinch. The first time I came across numpy I shouted out “this feels like poor man’s MatLAB!”, except the function library is much smaller. OTOH, MathWorks loves nickel and diming previously standard functions into paid DLC- I mean, Toolboxes…

MATLAB was originally designed for matrix manipulations. For that, it seems to be fine. However, I once had to use its GUI functions, to build a real-time display and processor for multichannel EEG data. Let’s just say, if it’s a choice between that and being covered in honey and tied down in the hot sun next to an anthill ... maybe the ants aren’t so bad ...

@@SegaSaturnSubs fun fact is that after you get used to python's ecosystem, you realize that nearly all of matlab is there, just under different packages, like matplotlib for plots and opencv for most of the img processing stuff

Yeah PHP is skewed because there’s a LOT of Wordpress and similar developers in lower paid markets. For bespoke apps it pays as well as anything else.

good for you because if you see the freshgrad PHP jobs it's expected for you to know ALL of PHP with salary less than average

@@undisclosedperson3871 Knowing Wordpress does not qualify one as a PHP developer.

Maybe you shouldn't have built 4 families, one is enough bro!

@@Bruceylancer that's why people say it's good to keep shut up before knowing a fact. I never said all of them is my own families. I have one family and I also feed 3 more families as charity. But guys like you are always busy to put negative comment to hurt other. BTW, I didn't mention about charity in the first comment because charity should not be a showoff. It should be for humanity and for God sake only. But I also carefully didn't say lie by saying my families. I just said 4 families. I hope everything is clear now.

@@kamal-ahmed I was joking, dude, relax! :) Kudos to you for working hard. Just don't take jokes equally as hard ;)

@@Bruceylancer maybe you should think of some better "jokes"

Svelte is too easy. Online webinars in my country wont make money from it. So they focused teaching on React and Vuejs as they promote it well. Svelte is nothing to companies since its too easy they cant demand higher pay.

"almost everyone is remote or hybrid remote"

the problem with hybrid is that the travel cost is almost or as high as full time office. And you still have to pretend you like people, which is becoming harder to do irl.

They started uploading more videos after chatGPT came out.

@@paradiseexpress3639 Something fishy is going on here

Maybe his website brings bread to the table , and the more you do something the more automated it becomes, so either he became really efficient producing his content or he got some friends to help out 🤙🏼

because covid, all peoples started to work at home. Also online shops increased at least x7 times. So same numbers with subscribers..

several videos every day is an exaggeration. 3 per week is more accurate. And Jeff isn't a machine, he's just dialed-in 😎

imo you cant defend php, everything can be done with almost everything :D the catch for php is that the wordpress uses it and you might want to stay native when working with wp. i wouldnt say that react is best for SPA (or is it?) since they tend to balloon. react's usecase is for small apps, like shopify plugins. big apps should be written in angular

@@robinspanier7017 I’ve worked with PHP for many years to know it’s not a well designed language so I’m not defending it. The way it borrows from C and Perl while not keeping to a consistent naming convention for libraries, among many other flaws (yes it’s a mess) however one does get used to it. What makes it worse is the amount of people who think as soon as they know some PHP they can build a website, without properly understanding programming constructs, data structures, procedural vs object oriented code, security or UNIX file ownership and permissions. Also Wordpress is completely PHP, only that it uses abstractions for many things, one of them being querying the database (and yes MySQL has flaws too). React may not be the ideal solution for every SPA but definitely a lot easier and more suited for working in a team as opposed to building an SPA in vanilla Javascript. Edit: just adding that sometimes one has control over the technologies used in a website and/or server and other times they don’t. If given the choice then PHP probably shouldn’t be the go to option for most people. The same thing can usually be done in Python.

From a Cybersecurity pov, PHP is a juice shop for misconfigurations. Ig its hard to master PHP!

1. kys 2. 3. profit

First step: you have to die

first step is opening the window

lol of what car would you describe javascript in this context?

@@oasis71 JavaScript? hmmm - maybe a new Honda Civic or older Honda Element :)

How's it going? Did you get a job? I've been thinking of learning Svelte to enter an entry-level one.

Same. Especially as their push into the American market started not that long ago.

becaues Germany is irrelevant technological midget, doubly baffling considering high education levels and multinationals. no wonder you got shocked something out of germany got mention 😆

What does he do?

digital nomads

I can't believe 10+ experience and just 1 lakh per month.

Exactly. Mumbai and Pune are the PHP spaghetti factories of the world

Yeah, my company farms all of the PHP Wordpress to Central America because there is a wealth of talent there and its cheap. Finding PHP developers in the US who aren't 10 year Senior devs and demanding 6 digits is challenging.

Maybe other third world countries as well. It's widely used in indonesia too.

@@andreas3858a Who told you India is a third world country?

@@MrQuantumCodes i can say from my experience there

Free mainframe course? Where?

@@adorinadorin Google "IBM training", if you sign up you get free access to a ton of free beginner mainframe courses.

I think he said it purposefully

It's not only a programming language. It's a "far superior programming language" ☝🏻

But doesn't Tauri just call the native OS' webview? What does it do different than Electron?

@@IngwiePhoenix Doesn't use Chromium.

Electron is popular because of how easy it is for FE devs to make dekstop apps with it. Tauri isn't going to replace Electron because it uses Rust, which FE devs will need to learn from scratch.

@@IngwiePhoenix Has Rust backend

​@@IngwiePhoenixElectron ships Chromium with each app, Tauri just calls the native system webview

can we stop this "relative price of living" bullshit? if an indian developer has to buy a laptop it will cost him even more than a fucking US citizen, a brand new car? same or more, we truly need to stop with this bullshit of "cheaper cost of living", if two people are working, one in india and the other in the US, the one in the US gets paid 6k monthly, while the indian one gets paid 800usd monthly then both developers lose their computers, a very basic developer laptop costs around 1.5k... so.... where is the "cheaper" cost of living for the indian?

@@Detallado not comparing 1:1 or cost of living Just wanted to present it is double the per capita

@@Detallado Cheap of living is LESS. Laptops are not manufactured in inda, cars are still relatively cheaper than US. But those things are not something people would buy everyday. That doesnt makes sense. Cost of living includes transportation price, rent, healthcare, retail prices all if which is much much lower.

Thats because bullied people always are the nicest ones 😅

Probably because the ecosystem is mature and aligned around only a few tools and frameworks. JS is more fragmented and way more toxic as a result.

php - professional honest programmers

Liveview is just a piece of it

We use Azure and Vercel, and all future deploys on new projects will be Vercel. It's a way better experience, and not bloated to the gills like the dinosaurs in the game AWS and Azure.

@@coherentpanda7115 But isn't Vercel using AWS themselves?

@@brain5853yea but deploying is just way smoother

@@coherentpanda7115 But doesnt vercel get really expensive really fast? I have heard that it can get really expensive in long term. How do you manage that 40$ per 100GB pricing?

Are they as reliable as Digital ocean or Linode? I saw the prices and I'm shocked.

@@agesnipes I've been a (German) Hetzner user for ~7 years, had very few problems, and those I had were solved professionally and quickly.

@@guntramblohm4179 don't get me excited haha! Is it available in regions in the world outside of Germany?

​@@agesnipesYes. Hetzner has own data centers in Nuremberg, Falkenstein and Helsinki. But they also offer servers in data centers in the US (east + west), which they did not build themselves.

Hetzner has no anti ddos tho

The answers to the survey were gathered before the drama, though right?

just use crablang bro

That's untrue. Any professional wouldn't follow social drama and take it seriously. It tarnishes the organisation and individuals who run it, but not the language itself. The language is a tool, it's for programming and work. Keep the politics away... Is it naïve to think the way that I do?

@@Phasma6969 Slightly naïve, because it's the organization that is in charge of developing the language. The power is in the hands of the community though, as it's open and we can fork it if necessary.

what happened? I’m out of the loop

I don’t know how you missed writing ‘my heart started to flutter faster’ instead of ‘beating faster’ 😂

they are, they have a new one called Fleet

They need to make clear who is paying the license too. a lot of jetbrains fanboys stop liking it the moment their employer stops picking up the license cost. And that's true for a lot of paid software.

@@Daijyobanai If you are a developer and you can't afford the cost of their products you might try another profession.

@@flogginga_dead_horse4022 exactly. At $160 per year to access all their products, it’s the last subscription I would cancel.

Im one of those "lucky " ones, no idea why name that lucky but ok. Do i regret? No. But i did have quite big knowledge gap for many years. And you can forget any job in america without higher ed, where pay is highest in the world. Im more happy/proud that i like what i do for living, than that i self learned it/went non conventional route. Way too much people in this business just for money. Just some of my thoughts

In my first job outside of University, everybody had a degree, but mine was the only one in Comp Sci.

@@JegErN0rsk You're right. But if I understood the study correctly, then taking into account the statistics on the sources of information for learning coding, it still turns out that most people get their knowledge in college, university, etc.

PHP is on a life support for a couple of years now. It's only relevant today thanks to wordpress and laravel. It has been that way for years now and you don't see any new frameworks emerging and going popular. Once wordpress or laravel gets a good competition from another language then PHP is gonna start bleeding to its death.

@@helbertgascon lol, php has been on life support for the last two decades if you listen to people like you. And yet its still here and lets me make 70k€ in germany at 23 xd

@@helbertgascon lmao, people like you have been preaching the doom of PHP for decades. Yet it's still here, still relevant, despite the fact that it has lots of competition now.

@@xIcarus227 I'm not preaching doom of PHP because I myself am a PHP developer. I'm speaking the truth here. PHP started to decline around 2017 so saying preaching doom for decades seems inaccurate as it hasn't even been a decade at all. Back then there was Magento, Drupal, Yii, Zend, CakePHP, Code Igniter, Phalcon, TinyMVC, Symfony. Yet now what? Laravel & Wordpress that's it. Sure, CakePHP and other frameworks do still exist but barely anybody uses them now to create a new system. Their sole purpose right now is just so older systems back then can still be secure and somewhat up to date with the current standards. The likes of FuelPHP & PHPixie are mostly unheard of for the majority of the PHP developers right now cconsidering that they're suppose to be basically the new famous kid on the block.

@@helbertgascon lmao PHP has been doomed since "The Fractal of Bad Design" yet it's still here. That article was written 11 years ago. PHP has improved and continues to improve. The fact there aren't fancy new frameworks all the time is a good thing. The ecosystem is stable and mature.

He probably uses Premiere Pro, After Effects and some plugins/templates for those animations

Where? I don't know a single senior engineer on less than 58k, avoid agency work if you want good money; anywhere that trades your time for money will pay as little as you accept. Personally on 86 base, 110k total comp as a senior. I would say the ranges are 30-45 Mid, 65-85 - Senior, 85-110, Lead, 95-130 Principal

How are people surviving with that low of salary? I actually thought it was 60k average

85k here and friends paid more, so it's likely there are some high earners skewing the results

@@rogerblack2023 anywhere outside of London I've never seen wages that high outside of high end consultants

@@CatInChat-ob7be average salary In the UK is 28-30k gbp

Do US clients who outsource tech to India also pay the same as local Indian prices or do they pay a extra because they can afford?

@@shantanukulkarni8883they pay better than average if they’re directly hiring.

​@@shantanukulkarni8883it's better to directly contact US company someway, otherwise those Indian middleman mfs eats up part of your salary and all you get is a peanut in the end.

"actually probably" sure buddy

It wouldn't be that much lower, would it? What I found interesting is that he included 'Something else' in the white box, what the hell is something else? lmao The white box should've included the option above which is incredibly large and probably also include people that 'finished school but didn't get a degree'. They could've just skipped the degree for various reasons such as expensive, thesis, social service hours, etc.

I didnt take this survey so its already skewed

The survey is a separate thing from the forum. It doesn't use any activity, they actively ask this questions and don't infer anything from user posts.

so the survey is taken by people who have 3 digits in IQ

can i reach you? i have some questions to ask

Right?

What do you think it should be?

Throughout my career my salaries have varied widely - the most recent one that I had with a 2014 job was 25,000 pounds. Temporary contract rates on the other hand tend to be at least double that.

Wordpress developers drag the salary average way down

@@mikelovesbacon Funny thing is most wordpress devs hardly write actual PHP codes. they just drag & drop 🤦‍♀

Even Microsoft won’t use Dotnet for anything important ...

neither, about the slowest frameworks you could ever use

Whatever language your feeling bro. Just build stuff.

@@outofboundsbro I ended up with Rails, since I have a Linux machine, Laravel is forcing me to use Docker which I don't want to deal with right now.

How about pichia? He didn't think that way

I know a couple from Mumbai who reckon that’s quite a nice city. Nicer than Delhi, anyway.

"one of the" worst. There's also Pakistan, Syria, Lebanon, Afghanistan and what not where life could be even more miserable. But man, India sucks too. With a billion people, even basic jobs are EXTREMELY competitive.

@@manyes7577 stop riding pichai. Ofc he thinks India is terrible. He left India dint he?