great review...glad to see high performance paddles coming down in price while rising in quality and newer materials...maybe the big boys will take a lesson from the smaller guys to get their prices more reasonable and in line with the new guys....thanks
Have you had the chance to check on spin numbers after more than a month of use? Would be great if the incorporation of Kevlar helps maintains high spin even after heavy play.
I ranked spin, power, pop, and price in John's database - and just on those 4, Pickleball Apes had two of the top 3 slots. I have more stats from his spreadsheet and it's very interesting stuff. Good job John.
You talked me into it. Ordered one this week. I am coming from a Legacy Pro. I have a tennis background and the longer handle interest me. I do not use a two handed backhand but will be interesting to see if the longer handle will allow more "whip" action to drives. I tend to hold the butt end of the LP w/my strokes. I also seem to struggle more w/the soft game. I feel this has a lot to do w/poor technique but like what you had to say about a "plush" feel. Thanks again!
I come from tennis and squash and love this paddle. I was also using the LP but aside from the quality issues I've had with two of them, I find they are too power- centered. The Apes is a perfect balance between a Gen1 paddle like the CRBN1 and a Gen2.
Bro, thanks! Your reviews and analysis of paddles are both expansive and smooth!! I talked about pop at the courts a few days ago and realized it’s your channel my brain defaults too!!
I received my Pro Line Energy today, and used your $15 Johnkew code, thank you John. Overgripped and added 3g weights at 4 spots, and it hits like an Ape is behind it :). My Vatic Pro V7 is an awesome paddle with the same overgrip and 6x 3 g weights, but still lacks the power and POP of this PLE. The one oddity is mine measured just 16 3/4" L and 6 7/8" W. I felt like the V7 top spin was a bit better, time will tell. I only drilled with both for comparison this evening and the difference was clear, the Vatic pro V7 has better touch and spin, as the ball seems to stay on the face longer, and the PLE rockets off the face but still has excellent spin. I lightened my grip a touch for NVZ play and voila, I'm out of excuses with these two weapons. I really appreciate your testing, etc. Pickle on!
Hi Dan. I added 12 grams or 4x3gr ea, one each beginning near the center of the curve. You can measure 3/8" from the inside of the protective strip from the top dead center, then put a straight edge across the paddle face to find the starting points on the curve. The 2 at the throat are placed at the exact middle of the curve. I played 3 non stop hrs Saturday morning with 3 other 4.0 guys, this set up had my game on point. My buddy is just 30, 6' 3" and 220 lbs of steel; he liked my set up better than his Selkirk Invicta power air. I agree, since this is really human chess on a court, a great technical game with interspersed power shots when appropriate is what's gotten me to my level in less than 4 months. Being a lifelong athlete of many sports, a coach in Soccer, Baseball, and a teacher of skiing, golf and my dedication to training/drills has helped elevate my game past the 3.5 level of play since May. I will add, we have lots of skilled players here in the Boise area, a sports persons heaven. I also set small attainable goals regularly as I continue towards my ultimate goal to a 5.0 65+ senior championship. At nearly 63, I have little time to waste. Enjoy your new weapon and play well. @@danpiedra3910
I have the R1 Pulsar, but this sounds like it has a more plush feel for better control with slightly more pop and power. I like a paddle with control and a powerful serve.
You had me at "cushioned" feel. If I designed a paddle, this is what it would be. Power and control, but for me, I am blown away with its balance that gives me incredibly fast hand speed. The hand speed helps reaction time, but also maneuverability. The handle feels great and the design is beautiful. I bought it because I wanted a backup for my Legacy Pro, but quickly demoted the LP:)
@@danpiedra3910 No did not add lead tape it felt fine from the box. Prior using 6.0 Zero Double Diamond, Ronbus and Legacy...for me they are all good!!!!!
Have been playing for 2 months with a Joola Tundra and bought this based on review - 6 hours in and I love it. What paddle cover do you use? It's an odd shape, really wish it would have come with one.
@@kalebenton4030 I would definitely keep the proline energy…. I don’t feel experienced enough to tell you which one is better, but I will tell you that the pro line energy is absolutely amazing. I actually decided to return the hybrid model just because I love the longer energy so much. The hybrid feels good, but I am torn between the cheapness of HUDEF viva pro 2, the ratings of the Volair mach 1 Forza, and the plush amazingness of the proline energy S… I just can’t find any dead spots in the pro line energy model. It seems to have a massive sweet spot.
Just ordered one. Excited to try it out! I'm a fairly new player but improving quickly. I've been using the Vatic Pro V7 which I like a lot but have been wanting to try something new. Thanks for the review and the code
@@johnkewpickleballSo I've played with it for two days now. While I'm definitely not a paddle expert and have really only played with 2 paddles before this. I'm probably a 3.75ish to 4 player. As mentioned my main paddle is a Vatic Pro V7 which is semi similar to this. But, this Apes paddle definitely has a LOT of pop and feels heavier. It's slightly harder to move this paddle around but not that much harder. The pop and power it has even compared to my Vatic is very noticeable. I like it. I have to hit my shots a little softer or they go flying. This is kind of what I was alluding to in that it's a bit harder to handle or control. Both days I used it were during round Robin indoor league play. We rotate a group of 14. Winners split and play with the 2 losers from other games. The second day I added some lead strips to the sides. I just wanted to experiment and see if it had any effect. It definitely did. Even more pop and a bit more stability. I went 7-0 and probably played the best pickleball I've ever played. I really like the paddle and some of my peers were asking about it. I think Apes has a big future. It'll take more getting used to since the power and pop is insane. Thanks again for the review and shedding some light.
@@johnkewpickleball Yea it seems like it. It's just hard for me to really review and explain because I have limited paddle knowledge. But I think you're right as I think about it. Maybe the softer/plush feel gives it the boost in pop/quick power? Next time I play I want to see if I can try some of my PB friends' paddles so I might actually be able to tell and feel the difference between the Apes paddle and some other paddles like Joola or a Selkirk for example. I've never used a super lightweight paddle either. I was watching Joseph playing singles today and he uses a lightweight Ace paddle. Would be interesting to try something like that to feel what it's like.
Great review John. Curious to see if this also pulls me away from my Pulsar. Nice to see a new company with an actual 30-demo/trial vs. those that require you to send it back in new/unused condition. Like the 1-yr warranty too. Had issues yesterday placing an order using Venmo and PayPal. Contacted the company and Waiman said they were aware of it so it wasn't an option until it's fixed. We've been going back/forth since then updating his website with contact information. What was really impressive is that I placed my order at 4:38PM yesterday, got the confirmation email and at 4:39PM got the shipping confirmation. I asked Waiman today if that was legit and he verified that it went out.
Customer service excellence will help seperate good companies from run of the mill companies. Some companies (don't want to name any) have a good paddle but have struggled with customer service.
@@danpiedra3910 yep buying a good paddle from a new company is just the first step. Good support/service will bring you back. There were some red flags yesterday with their website when I placed an order. Contact information was missing (still broken at the bottom of the page except the link to Twitter), error messages with payment options, and inconsistencies about the return period. Contacted them this morning and quickly got a reply. Looks like a new Shopify site and they're still making updates. There's still no information about the company such as an About Us page but it shipped UPS out of FL and arrives in two days, impressive.
Thanks for your review! Love the detail and various technical aspects being explored. I am going to get one as I have been disappointed by the failing quality of one of those 'other' Gen2 paddles.
Johnkew, have you received the NEW Pro Line Energy 'S' for review yet? and what is your opinion of the comparison of the 2...? btw, I bought the Energy based on your review and you're right, it is fantastic... thx for the disc code...
Fabulous channel! Thanks so much for your excellent videos. I bought the Ronbus R1.16 based on your review and I love the paddle. I am ordering this one today with your coupon code. Thank-you John!
Got this paddle after you mentioned it a few weeks ago in your last video. It’s very very solid. I’m getting a double black diamond and black diamond in the mail today. Looking forward to comparing them.
New to the game, glad I found your channel. You’re beyond helpful. Just pulled the trigger on the PA Energy S using your promo code! Can’t wait to have it in hand….
I just saw that Pickleball Apes just got their ProLine Energy S paddle approved (USAPA). Looks like possibly a hybrid shape not as elongated as the original ProLine Energy.
I would argue that paddle durability has more to do with the resin on the face than on the materials underneath. The materials underneath have impact on that use and play of the product.
Anyone else who has this notice how soft it feels for dinking and drops? Coming from a Vatic Flash 14m and and DBD 16mm both weighted at 8.7oz...this paddle has more power and spin on serves and drives. What's so strange is how soft the dinks come off....I think it's the Kevlar. It's extremely powerful on harder/fuller swings but must less responsive on soft game. Definitely more of a learning curve with this one but going to stick with it for now. It's almost like it's got two personalities. The Vatic Flash and DBD 16mm are more consistent in terms of feel and power from hard game to soft game. Pro Line Energy could be an absolute dream if you adapt to the soft feel on the dinks and drops.
*UPDATE - awesome paddle and definitely has more power than DBD 16mm and Vatic Flash 14m. Soft game took a little time to get used to the soft feel. Must be the Kevlar that produces power on fuller shots but not on dinks and drops. Awesome paddle. This in a Hybrid shape would be interesting too with a 5.5 handle.
Great job John. I've been using 17" paddles for the last 5 years...with the Engage poach extreme and currently the Players Rogue 2 E Carbon. Your review ticks all the boxes for me on my next long board!
My wife plays with the Invicta Vanguard. To me the Pickleball Apes paddle has more power and is as soft. Love the longer grip which I think many coming from tennis or squash will love.
Love the reviews my man! Can you share your thoughts on the S compared to this paddle. I’m still in my 30 day trial basis and can’t decide if I want to swap it out for the new design. So far I’ve loved it but can see how the new one might be more balanced. Thanks!
Absolutely love your reviews! Going to order one soon hopefully! Have you heard about the Ruby from 6.0 coming out soon? High hopes for that design when it hits the market!
Bought this paddle a few weeks ago based on this review (and your magic code) and love it. My only complaint is it is a bit skinny which for me at least, shows up in dinks when I don't hit the exact middle of the paddle. It can be a little unforgiving. With the new version "Energy S" shipping today, I'm hopeful that those days are gone. I'd be interested in your thoughts on the new shape, though with all the new paddles coming out, I doubt you have time to do a revisit of what is a very similar paddle. Thanks for all the great info.
Stoked to hear thoughts on the hybrid model. Trying to decide if I should stick with the Proline and go to the Proline S! Thoughts on how shapes changes would change performance?
On a separate note, I ordered a total of 5 Cheetah E16 edgless paddles using your discount code. Ordered one to try out, liked it so much that that same evening, I ordered 4 more as spares to have!
@@johnkewpickleball I currently have the BD Power 16, the Vatic Pro, the Vatic Flash, the Vatic Prism, the Spartus Gladius, the Legacy Pro. I have the Spartus Ballista on order and I returned the Vatic Alchemy. I ordered this Cheetah and find it the perfect balance in my hand. It does not feel head heavy, and almost feels like an extension of my arm. I also like the edgeless design as it subconsciously makes me not worry about hitting the paddle edge. The grip is also the perfect feel and tackiness while being able to manage sweat in a humid climate. I am impressed with the paddle material as it pretty much looks unused after a hard outing yesterday. The aramid material is very durable and I have cell phone covers that use it and it withstands a lot of abuse without losing feel unless you scrape it on purpose or on a hard abrasive fall. The weight is perfect for me at the kitchen as I like paddles below 8oz since the thermaform process already adds enough power and pop by nature. Very impressive overall. Time will tell but now this is my go-to paddle. I am going to keep some of the other ones for friends etc to use as needed. Thx again for the discount code.
Another great content and review John, so much knowledge and info going into every paddle review, will this suits for those who are coming from a tennis background like me? cause I use a 1-handed backhand top spin on both sides and slices, how would you compare to other paddles that uses the Carbon fiber/Kevlar combo like the Hudef Viva Pro Gen 3 and again Thank you for the input and have blessed, wonderful, positive, productive, peaceful and safe weekend
Test drove the paddle tonight. Love the extra real estate on the handle for my 2-hand backhand. With that Kevlar weave it adds more power and pop compared to my R1 Pulsar. I won points just from the speed ups. I play with a couple buddies who I wouldn't want to be on the opposite side of the net from them if they had this paddle given how hard they currently hit. I played with the Dura ball and thought I'd sacrifice control but it actually did well (Dura still sucks though). The sweet spot is smaller but didn't affect my shots. Spin was pretty crazy for me, it seems with that longer handle and longer face I can generate some serious torque. One of the few paddles I've used where the stock grip was pretty tacky, not sure I'd need an overgrip. However, the circumference is 4.25" so I'll need to add another grip plus an overgrip because of my large hands. The free 30-day trial and 1-yr warranty is refreshing. I'll keep messing around with it, if I like it I'm not sure I'd go back to a paddle with less pop just because it's a lot of fun to play with in fire fights and speed ups. Glad I bought two because they're sold out. 😁
Hey John, love the thorough review! My main paddle is the Volair Mach 1 Forza 14mm. Just ordered this paddle. I'm curious if you have had a chance to play with the Mach 1 Forza 14 and how you would compare the two? Spin, power, touch and feel etc. Thanks for the work!
Why did you leave out the LEGACY PRO models, Electrum E Elite and the new JOOLA Perseus and Scorpeus? As well as the only other "kevlar" paddle the ProDrive? Selkirk Labs 006 as well?
I mentioned that other paddles use Kevlar and aramid in their cores, such as ProDrive. But the Apes is the first (that I know of) to use it on surface materials. And I'm not sure why the other paddles are relevant
Sweet review John! One correction is PL is nowhere near the only paddle on the market using hybrid kevlar-carbon fiber faces. The Komodo Katana has also been on the market longer and it's the only paddle that SOLELY uses kevlar in the paddle face. I posted a review on it but would love to see your thoughts! There's so many paddle companies out there now that it's hard to keep up, but as a rule of thumb it's getting very difficult to find 1 paddle that has something unique about it. I can only think of the Katana and the Maverix Havik-16 with its hybrid-thermoforming shape that are doing things no one else is.
He said it was the only one currently using a hybrid Carbon fiber/Kevlar face. You try correct him and then say the Komodo uses SOLELY Kevlar...proving John's point.
@@bmxracing7919 fair point - that was an apples to oranges comparison of sorts. The point I really wanted to get across is that there are other CF/kevlar hybrid face paddles out there they're just not easy to find because the cost PR in pickleball is skyrocketing. You can find them just looking at the list of USAPA approved paddles which would take a hot minute. The HUDEF HD6.8 is a quick example! So I mainly hope there's no confusion that this is the only paddle that uses kevlar in the face. Rhino also has one but, to your point, it's graphite/kevlar not CF. Don't mean anything negative in my initial comment; I love these reviews!!!
This paddle has been measured to have a pretty low twistweight (5.66), probably because of the more elongated shape. Questions: 1. Thermoforming seems to increase sweet spot. Does the twist weight measurement device factor in the effect of thermoforming? 2. If you have a paddle with a lower twistweight, would adding weight to the lower shoulders of the paddle increase the twist weight, or would ir be better to add to the middle sides of the paddle?
Good observation. And yes, for sure. I’ve been retesting paddles regularly, and updating accordingly. Surprisingly, there has been very little upward drift so far. Kinda makes me sad that my technique is not getting better!
Really appreciate the comprehensive review! Esp love the explanation and numbers for power vs pop. Are you going to try/review the hybrid Pro Line Energy S?
I just got mine last Friday and had a chance to use it today for 3 hours of play. Having used a Legacy Pro and a CRBN1 I can honestly say this paddle is exactly what I wanted - a combo of the Legacy and CRBN. I am a 4.25 player and at 6'4" I've never had an issue with power. In fact, I always argue that many amateur players are giving too much attention to power paddles when control and play at the net is what pickleball is mostly about. Anyway, I agree with John's review in that this paddle had great control while offering a bit more power than a Gen 1 paddle such as the CRBN1. The spin on it is great and the softness is spectacular. For others out there using it, I did not add any lead tape... Had anyone added any at the throat?
Just ordered one using your code. Thanks for the great review. I now have a 6.0, Ronbus R.1 and soon to be Pickleball Apes in my bag. Did you add any tape to the Apes. My 6.0 is weighted to 8.55 and the Ronbus is 8.65. Thanks again for a great podcast.
new PB player here. great review--thank you. do PB paddles only last (remain effective) 3-4 months? not sure i can afford to replace a $150 paddle 3-4 times every year.
Hi, the use life of a paddle depends on your play style. The first thing to go is usually the surface texture, and with heavy play, they spin potential will drop ca. 20-30%. For some people, that's not a big deal, but for others, it warrants a new paddle
Do they have standard handle size,for those who do not like elongated handles?. Seems like elongated is most popular.my Gruvn raw16e looks similar in paddle size,except handle. I do not do two handed back hands, and don't think I'll ever work on that one.
When you say "ronbus xpro ev16" in your spreadsheets are you talking about their original paddles or something new? Is the Pulsar the only new paddles from Ronbus?
Same here. Got my order confirmation email at 4:38PM and the shipping notification a minute later. I was going to call BS but contacted the company and they confirmed it went out. That's impressive. Beats the 12 weeks I would have spent waiting for my Six Zero DBD order that I canceled 2 months into it.
@@dominionn09 their website is messed up, contact information at the bottom doesn't work. There's a link to a web form in one of the top menus to reach them.
Hi John. Bought the paddle based on your review and I love it. Have you experimented with adding lead tape to improve its stability or sweet-spot? If you have, please share the details on weight and location. Thanks and keep making these very informative videos.
Such an awesome review!!! Thank you. Quick question: You said this paddle is "less jarring when hitting the ball and feels more forgiving than Pro Kennex and most other thermoform paddles." Do you think this paddle might be a good consideration for people who struggle with tennis elbow?
I think to help with tennis elbow, you should look for a paddle with a lower swing weight. This paddle has an above average swing weight, so there are probably better paddles out there that would do a better job with your issue. However, any paddle that is has a more plush feel, will have reduced vibration energy transmitted to your arm, which will also help.
The Apes does have a very pleasant feel when hitting the ball, probably from the vibration dampening effect of the Kevlar. That probably helps with tennis elbow, but swing weight is also an issue, which is compounded with a lot of wrist action. If you're a wristy player, then swing weight may be an issue with your tendonitis
@@johnkewpickleball I swithced to a "ping pong" grip to get my tennis elbow issue in check. I was way to "wristy" when I first started playing. Went back to conventional after a couple years and wear a "Bandit"
Any chance you will be reviewing the Vatic Pro Prism Flash soon? Would love to know all the specs and what’s under the hood! Currently obsessed with it. Haha P.S. Absolutely love your channel.
Since the Kevlar/carbon fiber skin is less stiff than a pure carbon fiber skin, wouldn’t that leave more of the impact to be absorbed by the polypropylene core, thereby decreasing the life of the core and increasing the odds of core crush/debonding?
Hi John, I love the elongated paddles. I currently use the B&B Flith but deal with a bit of elbow pain. Could be poor form but I'm not sure. What is your opinion on this paddle possibility causing pickleball elbow? Would love to hear your thoughts. Thank you!
Hi, the pro line does feel pleasant to hit with, probably due to the vibration dampening effects of Kevlar. But it’s hard to say if it would be better on your elbow than the B&B
Do you think you can use a carbon eraser on this paddle, or would that effect the kevlar? If so, what would you recommend for cleaning/restoring the surface?
@@kimleith1378 the Cheetah Predion E10 is 16.75" x 7" and only uses carbon fiber (no Kevlar). Its handle length is 5" compared to 6.25" on the Pro Line Energy.
Where's the Bread and Butter Filth review? I'm just waiting for that review to decide between these two paddles. Sounds like this one might beat out the Filth in terms of performance metrics but I really like the branding and content from the Bread and Butter guys.
Hi, this paddle is very stable, and this is a case where the twist weight does not correlate with sweet spot. The sweet spot on this paddle is more elongated and narrow, like the paddle itself, but I've found that the sweet spot extends out to about 2-3 inches from the edge, like most thermoformed paddles
Please cut it open John- lengthwise through the handle. All t-formed paddles should have this done as part of the review. Play with one and cut another NEW paddle. Core-uption leads to the symptoms associated with dis-bond and delam. Core-uption is present from the factory. Braydon from Pickleball Effect just told Chris Olson that his buddy "Cooks through a CRBNx every 2-3 weeks". This is unacceptable. My DBD (received July 2023) lasted about a week - buckled core. We have nine Vatic flash and V7s that are bad in my club. This issue is not resolved. Cutting one paddle as part of your review is extremely valuable to your subscribers. You are the guy we trust, who investigates and shows us how paddles are built. Please show us this too - one new paddle cut down the middle. It is very quick and lets us make an informed purchase decision and also could force a brand to actually address the problem. It is not an early problem that was addressed, as SixZero said. It is ongoing.
For my taste, it doesn't need lead tape. But if you want more weight, I'd keep it just on the neck, as adding it to the head would make it really top heavy
Ok which would you choose of these three because I think you give such a great review and now I am torn which one is the best choice. So your opinion which would you choose? Pickleball Apes, Ronbus or Six Zero? They are all tempting but not going to buy all three.
Hmm, it depends on your preference for paddle shape, and your play style. If you like elongated shapes, then the Apes and R3 are good choices. The hybrid shapes of the Black Diamond series and the R1 are more appealing to certain players though.
@@johnkewpickleball Thank you! Since I am just starting out but not that far from being a decent player, I went with the r1.16. Hopefully I like it. Their support response is off the chart.
Same. Got my order confirmation email at 4:38PM and the shipping notification a minute later. I was going to call BS but contacted the company and they confirmed it went out. That's impressive.
Hi John, How did Legacy Pro rank on your power and spin tests? Also, I have two LP's. Do you think the more recent LP is less powerful than the first ones, assuming neither is delaminated? Do you think spin went up or down? My newer one feels a little less explosive, maybe same spin or slightly more. Thanks. Super videos.
Hi, I spin tested a new Legacy Pro at 1,900 RPM. I don't have experience with the newer batches, but I've also heard they're less powerful than the first batches. This is the trend for most thermoformed paddles, as they take precautions against core curruption.
This paddle has the same dimensions, 17" x 7",, as the Engage Blade and the some of the other Engage MX blade type paddles. Yet from your video this one doesn't have that excessively skinny look. I'm wondering why those blades looked so narrow compared to this one...?
It's because the PL has a longer handle, while the Engage has a longer paddle face. The extra long paddle face adds more to that narrow look than the long handle.
I don’t mind spending extra for a good paddle, but it has to be durable. Would you recommend this over the R1P or R3P. Ronbus has my vote so far because of their durability testing. Im not sure if the discount codes work for Canadians or Ill be forced to ship to US post box.
Tough choice...the Ronbus NOVA is being released next week, and it has a new technology to protect against delam/disbonding/crushed core. I'm working on the review now and will post it on release date, if you want to wait till then to make a decision.
@@johnkewpickleball Great idea. I'm looking to move up from my Amazon special to one paddle to rule them all. But I don't want to have to buy a new paddle every year either!
@@johnkewpickleball - I stand corrected. I was looking at Chris's spreadsheet and it was the Joola Solaire 14mm swift with the lower swing weight. I wasn't even aware that paddle came in the swift version.
