Player Data Doesn't Lie | D&D vs WotC 

🔴 Check out my book, DELVE! www.kickstarter.com/projects/bobworldbuilder/delve-5e-shadowdark?ref=7x4wkg

I did the math. 0.7% said they love WotC.

Why would WOTC put out a survey where "D&D" meant "fantasy TTRPG with d20s, regardless of creative team" and not "the current version of Dungeons & Dragons, brought to you by Wizards of the Coast"? That's probably why some of the results were surprising, as survey responders might have swapped back and forth on their own definition.

Ive recommended dnd more recently than WOC products because telling someone "i think you'd like dnd" is different than "i think its worth it for you to buy a phb". Cause like, i would actually recommend against people spending the money on books before theyve played at least a couple sessions to decide if they like it enough to commit $60+

I strongly disagree with the idea that "DnD" is a broad category of games. It does all of those other games a huge disservice, essentially ensuring WotC's game is considered the default heroic fantasy TTRPG.

I think the recommendation stat is boosted by BG3 I'm not even gunna lie!!

IMO, the latest update will only have result in a small bump in popularity, as the changes seem to be mostly about making existing players happier with the game. Also, the price increase of the books will shut some people out, and the lingering anger about the OGL, the Pinkertons may have a negative impact.

I definitely took all of the references to “D&D” in your survey to mean *5e specifically*, and answered accordingly.

I think you underestimate how many people thought you did mean WotC's D&D instead of the whole d20 game environment. I would have thought that as well.

1:40 If the question is "How do you feel about Dungeon's & Dragons?", people answer the question. The question WAS NOT "How do you feel about TTRPGs?", and the survey shows that. Expecting another result is very strange in my opinion. Inputting your own feelings and assumptions into a clear question is how most arguments on the internet start when people do not read what the person is actually saying, and instead they interpret it in their own way even if it changes the entire meaning of the question or statement.

I actually never even considered "D&D refers to any D&D-like game." Like others, I figured D&D meant D&D. Relatedly, #2 & #6 could differ not necessary due to "D&D can refer to D&D-like games" but by realizing that D&D is more than the current WotC products. As long I have the books, I can run games for plenty of people without them buying anything. That's how I interpreted it and in fact I think I voted that I recommend the game recently but not the products. I often recommend the game still, but would not recommend the products at all right now (between quite a few that have been pretty disappointing, WotC's negative direction, and no reason to buy core rulebooks just months before a new set is released). Lastly, I found it interesting how you approached your predictions and interpretations as "People who watch D&D videos would think...". Any future surveys would greatly benefit from a "Where did you hear about this survey?" question, because I didn't originally hear about it from your video or any other video, but posted over on Mastodon. Furthermore, I extremely rarely watch D&D videos (which made it surprising to me that this popped up in my feed, but I'm glad it did!) So here is at least an n=1 respondent who was very much NOT fitting your predicted typical respondent at all! :)

Hasbro bought monopoly and then decided to create one

I absolutely do not equate any other RPGs, even ones that use d20s, with D&D, and assuming that people do so perpetuates the idea that D&D is the "be all end all" of TTRPGs, which then makes it super hard to get people to play other (and arguably better in many cases) games. It's like when my mom calls all console games "Nintendo", but worse because in many cases, even people who've played D&D for years don't realise other games exist, whereas almost everyone who's played Nintendo consoles for years know about PCs, Xboxes and PlayStations.

Saying that so many games count as D&D just because they have a similar game mechanic and mode of play is far too generous, and perpetuates the myth that Dungeons and Dragons is the be all, end all of the TTRPG hobby. And the further bad acting from WOTC makes this separation more important now than ever, to highlight that there are alternatives - and not make it sound like D&D doesn't have competition (how can a game compete with itself?).

I own a FLGS, and book prices will kill my local sales even more due to online/digital sales being cheaper. I host 5 games a week and rarely do players own a book.

woah woah woah, I did NOT answer that considering all TTRPGs as D&D. I didn't think a channel that covers MANY TTRPGs would double-specify the name of a specific game but mean the entire genre. Especially coming off a video specifically about the one game. Hell, especially since you said D&D later on but meant specifically D&D!

Basic, 1st and 2nd editions of D&D were not WOTC so I can see why people might be recommending 'D&D' more than the products currently made by its current owner.

I answered your survey and I answered assuming in this case with DnD they mean actual DnD 5e.

I know when I answered I was answering from the perspective "D&D" meant material published by WotC. I think another Survey with those two view points separated out would yield some interesting results. "How do you feel about D&D WotC products" "How do you feel about D&D all ttrpg including WotC products." I think the data about WotC itself is pretty clear and you could skip that section on Survey 2.0

Love your work, and thanks for taking the time to do the survey and releasing the data uncut :) Re 1:47 - given that Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) IS a brand name and trademark, saying you expected people to equate it with an array of other TTRPGs is a bit like releasing a survey on "What do people think about Coca-Cola?" and expecting people to answer with their opinions on Coca-Cola, Cherry Cola, Pepsi, tuKola, Phoenix Organic Cola, and Dr Pepper (cola flavor) ;)

i like the DELVE name ! for me it can mean : Dungeon exploration : Lethal variant edition

I wish more people would draw a distinction between the game and the business practices of the company.

Supporting the publishers you like more. Yes. 100%. I love your objectivity that leans towards positive alternative responses that still have an effect in the direction people may wish to go. As a prematurely grumpy old man, you temper my reactions, and get me think a little more deeply. That's a valuable gift you have, sir.

I think suggesting that people were only answering that they didn't like Wizards of the Coast based on your video being jokingly conspiratorial is really underselling how terrible they have been treating their customers. People don't like Hasbro/WotC because of their own actions as a company, unprompted by you.

From speaking to people who play other TTRPGs my guess for "hate" on D&D comes from the monopoly it holds and detracts from other systems. They don't actually have too many complaints about the mechanics in D&D, more that there are some great games with really fun mechanics that just aren't getting the attention/funding they deserve because the majority of TTRPG players just stick with D&D. Hopefully that will change as people branch out a little with things like daggerheart.

I feel like the problem with the first question is if you say ‘DnD’ lots of people will assume ‘Officially licensed Dungeons and Dragons, Basic, Advanced, 1-5 Edition’ instead of ‘Any TTRPG using a fantasy setting and based on the D20 system.’ I’m sure if it was phrased as ‘DnD or similar D20 systems’ (if that is what you were hoping to find out about) it would be much higher on the like/love side.

the negative feelings about DnD are not because of your videos. Most likely it has to do with WotC conduct towards the community in the last 1.5 years, starting with the OGL debacle, and Hasbro's craptastic influence on the brand. The move towards a subscription online model is a major mistake that most people feel very negatively about.

Interesting look at the results. :) I guess it would have been useful to define "D&D" in the introduction to the survey, I understood it as the IP only, so essentially D&D 5e given it's its current shape. I would not have included Pathfinder and other d20 games in the midst. In any case, it's interesting to have these kind of discussions these days. Good job as always. :)

I would absolutely love for the Stranger Things kids in Season Five (circa 1987) to be playing Call of Cthulhu or the Star Wars RPG rather than D&D. I would have a heartattack if they were playing Champions. ❤️

D&D became just a starter package. Back then it was the only option. Now I'd rather back KICKSTARTERS like DELVE instead of what WotC produce.

I definitely thought this survey was specifically for 5e and wasnt thinking about other rpgs when filling out this survey

I backed Delve Shadowdark version for a reason.

Fascinating data! I appreciated the read. I am curious about any potential skewing of the data based on the community or perhaps even who watches videos like your own compared to the majority of players. But what you gathered is an interesting snapshot in any case.

Got my pledge submitted can’t wait to get my book eventually! Killing it Bob! 😎

Can’t wait for Delve dude. So cool that you’re splicing 5e with shadowdark. Ordered the 5e core package day 1 😎

Love that you did this and love that you are sharing - you are awesome. (I agree with your up front assessment about potential bias and for sure the "do you like WOTC" questions are likely heavily biased based on how you drove participation in the study.) And yes I will support your KS to spite them :)

If I remember correctly, I voted "I don't like this game" for D&D because I thought of 5th edition D&D as it is now since this was based on WotC's survey about presumably current D&D, at least in my mind, and I genuinely don't like it as much compared to other systems that are out there right now, or even 4th edition D&D. But if I were to think of not specific editions of D&D, and even D&D-like games as a whole, then I would have voted "I love it".

I think I need to start learning Shadowdark. If the trend continues Shadowdark would be the next Pathfinder.

I would guess that for most people D&D would mean D&D branded products regardless of publishers. So not inclucidng Shadowdark, but definitely including versions of D&D published by TSR. My guess would be that those recommending D&D, but not WoTC products, were mostly recommending one of the "first edition" D&D edition popular with the OSR community.

Wizards of the cost

There are other companies making 5e products for D&D other than WotC. If i recall how i answered these questions, that’s what i took into account. I haven’t recommended a WotC product or purchased from them in over a year but have recommended other 5e products from Kobolds Press and Level Up 5E. Both companies have products for 5e that allows you to play the game doesn’t require purchasing products from WotC.

Thank you, Bob Survey Administrator

I have been getting back into D&D for the last few years to see if the current version is any good and long story short, I haven't had a good time with it. What's been really interesting is that I have been reading some old documents and there are people that have the same critiques with the design of D&D that I have back in the 1970s. It was also interesting to find that some of my other critiques were as a direct result of them responding to the Satanic Panic.

Thanks for keeping the survey up for longer than Hasbro.

Just from the beginning of the survey, i am struggling with the stated assumption that DnD means any of a number of d20 based fantasy roleplaying systems that are not dnd.... DnD is a specific system. Just like Pathfinder or 13th Age or Savage Worlds are specific syatems. Back to the video.

Great survey analysis! I understand casually using the term "D&D" to mean "fantasy role-playing" but this survey seems to clearly be about D&D 5th as published by Hasbro.

I think you are missing the fact that non D&D role players watch D&D videos for general role play ideas.

I’ve recently had coworkers coming out of the woodwork asking me to DM for them. They’ve seen Stranger Things and Critical Role and want to play. We will start with WotC materials because they want to play “official” D&D, but then we will probably go to Drakkenheim or another independent setting.

Thanks for the toasty update Bob, happy to be support you with my own copy of Delve!

I kind of wonder if the official survey was part of the reason their CEO "stepped down."

Bob's first few guesses had me cracking up 😂

Great video. Thanks for running this survey and sharing the results. Very interesting.

4:56 I'd actually be part of that "never" group in terms of recommending D&D. mostly because of the gripes I have with the system, with how limiting its rigid class and level system is. Yes, I do play D&D (and as a result of those gripes inevitable end up with insane multiclass-combos to create the character I envision, even if it may suffer at higher levels). But I regard it as merely serviceable. Personally I prefer the more open approach of Shadowrun 4th edition. So long as you have karma (quasi-XP) you can increase skills and stats up to the physical/mental limitations of whatever you are playing, be that metahuman, sentient animal, free spirit, or even a sentient AI.

I started playing D&D at age 12, in 1988 and have proudly tell anyone who asks! Even today at work.

I'm in this video and I like it. 13:47 WotCIA operation 'silence of the DMs'

Did someone say Kickstarter? 🤔

I can't say I'm surprised, given the trend in news. Thanks for putting the survey together to capture a wider sample. I do love the game, even if I'm not thrilled with the company that's producing it now. As I told them in a prior survey - between BECMI, 2E and 5E products I already own, I could play D&D in some form or another until the day I die without spending another cent on their products. I don't need them, they need us. Hopefully they change course accordingly.

Pinkertons killed Bob's camera! 😳

00:51 Whoa! That’s my video!😲

I started watching because back in the deck recommended. I have a show myself and have been playing since dungeons and dragons 3rd Ed. I did take a break for about 2 years in the early 90s.

I appreciate that you suggested supporting publishers we like rather than just hating on others (my words). If we could put that energy into something positive, it would be mad.

We need you to do this survey again with "D&D" swapped out for "TTRPGs" for science

Three things: 1.) I wish a better company owned WotC, or they licenced D&D to someone who cares. 2.) I love your channel partly because you have only been playing D&D for 5+ years. I've been gaming for a lot longer than that, but I personally love to hear younger people's opinions on the hobby. They (like you) have fresh, and more modern ideas and opinions about the hobby, and I love it! 3.) Re: your kickstarter: You had me at Shadowdark! Thanks, and keep being awesome!

Wonder if WotC will acknowledge this video publicly. Spite pledge done jk. just supporting because I like what you do Bob

Anyone else notice an optical illusion at 4:23? When I look at the red or yellow part of the diagram, then dart my eyes to the explanation on the right, then back onto the diagram (around the green part), the blue piece seems flicker out of existance for a split second, closing the empty space it left behind with green and red. Very freaky. I don't have a ruler here but I'm holding my phone at about 1,5 phone lengths from my face. This illusion works both with the video running and paused but it seems to occur more easier with bob talking lol. I only got it to wok about 10 times so the sample size is obviously small.

I think with the first question was swayed by the survey and it locked it to DND as DND by WOTC.

Great video boss. Great idea from Sly with the predictions

Only halfway through the video now, but I really appreciate that you talk about how the surveys were framed, and what might cause bias in the test! Addressing that a survey isn't just going to represent everyone and that people with certain views are more likely to take the test is really important in any data collection. Respect for breaking down the context rather than just taking the numbers to prove a point

Bob, you're so laid back and cool, I watched this entire video even though I have no interest in those stats. Keep on keepin' on brother!

I usually use "D&D" to only refer to WotC D&D when talking to other gamers, but I use D&D for all games to people outside of the geekosphere. I usually use "d20 games" or "D&Dish games" to include all of the other games. I would have liked to see these questions with one version only WotC 5e/6e and one with d20 games, and one with non d20-based games.

I interpreted Q1 as actual Dungeons and Dragons. Not the spinoffs. And I love it. It has been part of me for 40 years now. The true question so far as like/don’t like is concerned should be about Hasbro, IMO

I love how you do give the context regarding the possible negative pretext. It's just good transparent content.

I just noticed the Ladyworld album in the background. Bob has good taste.

Best part of this video is when you say "support the publishers and creators you like and enjoy" Keeping it positive

Thanks for sharing your results! Regarding the questions of recommending D&D vs recommending purchasing WoTC products. You can recommend D&D to someone without recommending they buy the books or WoTC products. For example, my wife and I became friends with the bartender at a local brewery. When we found out he was interested in learning to play D&D, I suggested that I could run a one-shot and he could play with us and my daughter and her boyfriend. We met with him beforehand and went through making a PC. While we own the books, I didn't recommend he buy them, but instead showed him how he could find pretty much everything needed online. So, ultimately, you could say we recommend D&D to him, but we did not recommend WoTC products. I haven't bought WoTC products since the OGL scandal hit. I'll stick to independent creators until I see WoTC repent! 🙂

I started with dnd redbox, blue box, ad&d, and 2nd (1981 to 2005), the palladium in (late 80's), then 5th edition dnd 2019. Now that dnd is running itself aground, I've been looking at DCC and MCC and pathfinder 2e and others.

The problem with some of the questions on this survey is that it doesn't contrast D&D with other TTRPGs, to give a benchmark. For me personally, I've recommended other TTRPGs more than D&D, played and run other TTRPGs more than D&D. I'm also not at all inclined to use D&D as a synecdoche for the whole hobby, so talking D&D vs TTRPGs is an important distinction, I feel.

I enjoy all of Bob World Builder videos

I did not answer considering any d20 Fantasy TTRPG as D&D. However, it's usually "find a group to try it" not "buy the PHB", you don't actually need to give WotC/Hasbro a penny to start playing the game. I'd even recommend buying their own set of dice before a book

I love ALL Bob World Builder videos!

No we're definitely unhappy with the direction D&D is going because of WotC's recent actions, not because of content creators clickbait titles and thumbnails. :)

We've been waiting for this! I love all Bob World Builder's content.

is delve book on amazon so i can buy it today? please send me link. i try look for it no clue

This survey is honestly telling us very little we don't already know. I feel like you could get more accurate results rerunning the quiz with extra questions that feature a clear divide between D20/TTRPGs and D&D, that inquires of playstyles and how well the various systems support them, and within D&D seeks opinions of each major version. (example: I can't recommend or positively rate 5e because of bounded accuracy, the missing core rules, and bad class design, but I can recommend 3.5/PF1e without reservation because the gameplay systems actually work and are able to host a complete simulation.) Further, It wasn't even clear to me you meant D&D in general- the parenthetical "BWB version" after the first question made me think at first you meant a specific houseruled homebrew of 5e you had made. It wasn't until much later on the survey I realized you meant 5e, and went back to change neutral answers to negative ones.

I’m so very glad you did this survey! This really shows the general public (and WOTC) the reality of where people stand; especially on their lack of integrity imo - great video as always!

I honestly haven't played DnD 5E at all and haven't played 4E in about 7 years, but I still watch your channel for all the different content. A lot of your ideas are applicable across games even when you're talking about DnD. I don't remember if I took the survey, but when I recommend TTRPGs, it's never DnD, just because it's not what I play.

I totally forgot about this survey and got very excited when I saw this video

Sweet TWRP album.

from my perspective i took dnd as the game itself and wotc products as books and merch i started a dnd group but as all of us are students with no disposable income i recommended to get the information from the interwebs

I can't help but observe that Q1 created a visual peace sign. I can't unsee it.

I'm curious what the breakdown in responders is between DM's and players. I think you'd see some interesting trends emerge

Like you mentioned the data is messed up because of how you got your sample but you're sharing your data as well as pointing out the flaws so very scientific presentation

Bob, have you ever been to a TWRP concert?

As someone who responded "I do not like DND" in the survey, let me give you my reasoning. Firstly, I do not associate DND with all of the TTRPG space. I haven't started with any DND derivative (my first game was Call of Cthulhu, then Blades in the Dark, I've played at least 10 different systems before my first game in 5e) and thus I do not call TTRPGs as a whole DND. More then that, most of the games I've played have little in common with 5e, and aside from general premise, I can't even call them representatives of the same genre. Secondly, when I played 5e I was having fun, but character creation felt weird and I never really got interested in it, I played maybe 10 sessions and dropped it. Around the same time I discovered channels like yours and started watching them, mostly for the system-less videos. Later, I was asked by a friend to run them a game of 5e, and with my experience in other systems, and knowing how limiting 5e is in some aspects, I thought it will be relatively easy, so I agreed. It was probably my worst experience running a TTRPG I ever had. I haven't touch a DND-like for years after that because it left such a bad taste in my mouth. It also felt... dated? 5e feels like it's a really really old system, that is not up to the standard of modern gaming. I later rolled a character in pf2e, because my friend was GMing at a convention I was attending, and I decided to give it a shot, and I felt in love with the game. Now it's the only dnd-derivative I run as a GM, I may try other ones, but I won't go back to 5e. The result of it is - I do not like DND5e, not in the slightest. I have high respect for any GM that can run this game, I was not capable of doing that, I felt that system is fighting me at every moment, combat or not. I haven't tried any editions before 5e, and maybe I give them a shot in the future, but I doubt it. I still enjoy your channel, I love some of your videos. My usual biggest disappointment in your and other similar channels is that every time you create a product it's mostly for 5e... And I understand it, it's not anybody's fault, it's just how this industry works. I'm happy this one is also for shadowdark, although I would be WAY happier with a system-less product, because well, I do not run or play shadowdark ^^' It's kinda frustrating that most of those cool books you and other dnd youtubers make is completly useless for me. This frustration may be the reason why I dislike the game so much. Otherwise it would just be neutral for me.

My favorite TTRPG's and systems: 1-Cypher(generic), 2-Teenagers From Outer Space(anime), 3-Gamma World 4E(not based on D&D 4E)(post apocalyptic), 4-All Flesh Must be Eaten(zombie), 5-Battlelords of the 23rd Century(sci-fi), 6-Pathfinder 1E(fantasy), 7-5E(fantasy), 8-Palladium system(generic), 9-AD&D(fantasy), 10-Shadow of the Demon Lord(sci-fantasy/horror) and 11-Star Frontiers(sci-fi)

So it seems the 15% perpetual discount for Legendary Bundle owners no longer applys. Last time I checked Perpetual means forever. Do you have any info on this?

I'm happy to see what the results were. I'm very much of the mind that D&D is strictly D&D, I hate that it is what others view as synonymous with TTRPGs as a whole. I would never think that the surveys would be about the genre of game and not the product that WOTC produces.

I didn't take the broader interpretation of D&D. I think the recent controversies have make the distinction between fantasy RPGs and D&D in general more distinct.

After having experienced every edition of the game, a new edition is almost always received negatively in the ramp up to release. People know they have to sink another chunk of money in the core books to remain current even though they already have everything they need to play. Few genres take more advantage of the fear of missing out than RPGs.

I think it is important to note, in regards to the questions about recommending D&D and recommending WotC products, you can absolutely play 5e without ever buying a WotC product. The base rules are in creative commons now, and there is plenty of products for 5e that aren't published by WotC.