Got the first 2 examples entirely wrong, but right on the 3rd; I'll have to watch again in a few days and see if my ear has learnt anything! The differences are subtle, but thanks for demonstrating, this is something I've heard talked about for years, and never really been sure I could appreciate the difference.
this is definitely totally dependent on style of music and individual players, and it’s the kind of thing experienced studio musicians talk about a lot! thanks for watching 🙏
it's nuanced stuff. anything to get a person out of his or her comfort zone is usually a good learning experience. ...my bow work is ALWAYS behind and that's not good lol
Loved the demo at the very end with all three playing at once and spread across the stereo field: very effective! What an interesting topic this is; it's something I've thought about a lot. I think you nailed it when you said "What exactly constitutes ' the beat '?" That's especially true with regard to drummers playing solo and people saying they're playing behind the beat. Because, if the drums are the only thing playing, then they're the only thing creating "the beat." So, how can they be behind or ahead of it? Like you said, then it must come down to a certain kit piece. Is the hi hat "the beat?" Is it the snare? The kick? There was a video on Rick Beato's channel -- the 20 greatest drum sounds of all time. And they talk about Bernard Purdie on "Kid Charlemagne." And Rhett Shull says "And he's hanging so far back on this," and Rick agrees, "Way back." Rhett says, "Here's the beat ... and here's Bernard" (puts his hand behind the other hand). Keep in mind that only drums are playing at this point. So I thought ... "What does that mean exactly?" I recorded the beat from the video and brought it into Reaper to look at it. And, I'll tell you, it looked as "on the beat" as you could expect from a human. Both the kick and snare were lined up with the hat. I mean, dead on, really. There was one snare out of the three or four measures they listened to that was a little behind the hat, but everything else was right on. The only thing I could see in the waveform --- and the only thing I could hear really --- was that he was slightly swinging the 16th notes. I don't know if that's what they meant or not (they didn't expand on it) by "way back," but it's a very interesting idea: a drummer playing "behind the beat" when they're the only ones creating "the beat." :o)
ahh yes I think I remember that video. They should have given more context in that moment, but I always cut Rick some slack...that man is PROLIFIC and full of great information. it's interesting listening to that track right now: it definitely feels like almost every instrument in the verses are ahead of where Purdie is... Walter Becker's guitar hits on 2 & 4 are definitely ahead of the snare. Everyone is SO LOCKED into the tempo and groove tho. You can't have a Purdie beat lay back so much without the other folks totally locked. It's a really great example of the group dynamic I barely touched on ...as always, thank you for your amazing insight and thoughts!
Thanks man. Very cool. If you have ever watched the Cross Fire Hurricane doc on the Stones, Bill Wyman explains the bands timing theory with relation to the rhythm guitar, bass and drums. The “wobble” they call it.
I got all nine right, but it couldn't tell from timing, ie I couldn't hear if the bass came before or after. But I could tell from the feel. All the aheads sounded rushed and all the on-beat examples sounded nailed in. Behind was a bit harder to tell, but lets say if it didn't feel really tight all the time and it was not rushed, then it must have been behind.
surprised myself being able to guess them all right, as a bassplayer i struggle with playing ahead too, or maybe it's just my laziness expressing itself musically
Quantization has been flexible to adjust in degrees and even targetable at freely editable grooves since *Cubase 2.0* back in *_1990!_* Drum machines are *_NOT_* incapable of grooving, you just have to invest the effort to _program_ them properly. This is getting lamer by the mention, like drivers complaining about the rain on their windscreen because they are too dumb to know that their car has _wipers_ installed for this exact problem.
