Podcast #73 - Making A Murderer 

As a defense attorney, I can tell you that you guys are spot on. Juries everywhere are such a problem. I can't say more but the problem is getting worse.

I was a 21 year old student working at my college and one of the faculty members was talking about getting summoned. I was like, "Man, that sucks." And he looked me dead in the eye and said something to the effect of, "Serving on a jury is a great honor and I am happy to be of service to my country." That was the moment I realized how important it is to take jury duty seriously, and I wish I could tell him the impact he had on me.

When Jenna was talking about a town's police department blaming certain people or family name, that's one of the truest statements I heard. In my town, my family name is known because of my mom, uncles, and cousins having done crimes. I always get picked on by police and security. I'm literally one of the nicest, obedient, following people in my family. I always see myself having to persuade people to think I'm a nice person when my family has put a bad meaning for our name

I like when Julien talks first and then Jenna afterwards starts acting like a boss and begins spittin facts.

I WAS SITTING THERE TRYNNA FIGURE OUT WHAT WAS DIFFERENT THEN I REALISED JULIEN, your chin is re-naked.

This show frustrates me for the following reasons: First, Brandon. 1. Brandon was questioned without his legal representation or parent's permission. Pretty sure that it is illegal to question anyone under 18 without either the lawyer or guardian consenting or being present. 2. Almost anything Brandon said or did while in police presence was coerced or said/done under duress. His lawyers should have sought immediately to have his statements thrown out for those reasons. 3. As a defense attorney I would sure as hell have tried my hardest to get Brandon ruled unfit to stand trial as it was clear his mental capacity was not there. Second, Steven As a juror in a trial, as Jenna pointed out, you have to be 100% unbiased. It was basically impossible with the media coverage to find an unbiased juror, and Brandon's defense attorney was smart in asking for an out of county jury. However, it frustrates me TO NO END that these jurors IGNORED that they are to find him guilty beyond reasonable doubt when there is absolutely reasonable doubt. Not going to sit here and list every piece of evidence, but the whole investigation was biased as well. THEY SEARCHED THE PROPERTY OVER 10 TIMES. There should have been only 2 searches at max. "EVIDENCE" WAS DISCOVERED BY DEPUTIES WHO WERE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE THERE. The burden of proof lies with the state and they failed to meet the burden of proof. The defense poked holes in everything the prosecution presented and the jurors apparently ignored all of that as well. Link and Colburn clearly should have been examined as their stories change from testimony to testimony and it is my belief that Colburn perjured himself and should face legal charges for doing so. Is Steven guilty? Possibly. Does he deserve a new trial? Absolutely.

Jenna is so BLuuuuuuuuuE

I think you guys raised some really good points about taking jury duty seriously, at the same time you have to realize that some of those people trying to "get out of jury duty" aren't lazy and don't care but they have jobs. A lot of jobs will not pay or, or only pay you a fraction, for days you're on jury duty. And I don't know about everyone else but I can't afford to just sit on a trial for however many days not getting paid as much as I'd like to help the justice system.

The movie 12 Angry Men is a really good movie! It shows you how serious you should take jury duty. I loved it

"This is why we cant have nice things Julien" Lmao!

I can't begin to describe how much i loved Steveys attorneys, those two guys not only are brilliantly intelligent, but their humility as lawyers is what really blew me away

I'm in Ontario Canada. When I was in high school there was a Canadian law class offered in 12th grade, and one of the units in the course was about how trials work and what the process is for selecting a jury and what jurors do. It was really informative. Unfortunately it was only an elective course and hardly anyone took it. The curriculum has gone through a lot of changes since I finished school so I don't know if they have such a thing now. But they really should have a mandatory law class. There's a lot of stuff that people really should know that most average citizens don't know.

YAY I can listen to you guys while I try get sleepy because insomnia because you're voices are soothing because ily have a fantastic day from New Zealand! Happy nys everybody!

I didn't even watching making a murderer but this podcast got me so fired up, I'm gonna watch it now.

Ahhh, how about a MOQ trial? Anyone? :D

You don't know how bad I needed to talk or listen to someone talk about this. I've been suffering alone 😩lol

Okay so.... At around the 28:00 minute mark y'all started talking about mock trials and mock elections but all I envisioned was Moq as a jury member or Moq voting on elections. It'd be freaking hilarious to make videos of Julien as Moq in serious everyday situations. Just an idea! But overall great podcast, made me seriously shift my view of jury duty and what we can all do to change people's lives.

Jenna your hair is like cotton candy!!

#RIPJuliensBeard

I still think either her brothet or her ex did it. They were never questioned and her ex made a statement that really left me questioning his innocence. But the most fucked up part is the kid, he clearly had a learning problem and he'd admit to being Hitler if someone told him to.

Hear me out, guys. So, I live in a rural town, jury duty may involve driving up to four hours away and having to book a hotel for multiple days, depending on how long the trial goes on. These are expenses that are not covered, and the amount of money that is given as a replacement for normal wages that would be earned usually doesn't even match a given person's daily pay. Not to even touch on potential child care/ pet care/ gas/ food costs that might get involved. I totally agree that there are a large number of people that come up with excuses to avoid this civic duty. However, just writing all of those people off as lazy is pretty frustrating, considering how much you are willing to look at different angles in a general sense, even within other topics you discussed on this podcast.

I live in Australia and I had a class at high school called Legal Studies and we learnt a lot about reasonable doubt, the legal system and being in a Jury. I feel like all countries should have classes like this!

They way they pronounce Manitowoc kills me 😂

You should watch Murder on a Sunday Morning by HBO as well. It happened in Jacksonville FL. Really interesting case against the sheriffs dept who beat a 15 yr old kid into a false confession.

Having to work is a completely legitimate excuse for not serving on jury duty. The problem is the law does not require employers to pay their employee while they are serving. I know in our situation we would not be able to afford our mortgage payment if a week of work is missed. Then it is hard to get a good jury because it is not made up of a mixed dynamic (as in not much working class included). That's just my understanding.. could be different..

always impressed by julien's sponsorship transitions hahaha

When I was in middle school we had a mock trial that was amazing. It felt legit we actually went downtown to the courthouse, everyone wore professional attire and I was a member of the Jury. I loved that experience. I will never forget that experience.

Julien, you look 10x better shaved and Jenna your hair is hella fleeked out

I seriously don't understand how people can NOT like jury duty. I'm not 18 yet, but it seems like the closest thing I'll ever get to being in an intense movie. It seems super interesting and important. Hell, I'd volunteer for jury duty.

I live in Wisconsin, very close to Manitowoc and the way Julian pronounced it had me on the floor laughing. It's actually pronounced Man-i-toe-walk just saying

Thanks for suggesting this. I had been seeing it on netflix a lot, but I hadn't been around to check it yet. But after I listened to this podcast, I went straight home and started watching it. I could literally not stop watching. I have never been as frustrated watching anything in my life. I was frustrated after watching "The Jinx" after you guys talked about it, but this was a whole new level of frustrating. I was sat in the living room talking to myself, my dog must of thought I was more crazy the she knew! I mean, there was so much that didn't add up, or for me wouldn't have a leg to stand on. So thanks a lot for taking time to talk about this on the podcast, if not I probably wouldn't of seen it in ages :) You guys rock!

as someone from wisconsin hearing people who aren't from wisconsin trying to pronounce our town names is always a reliable way to entertain me

Our system is a joke, which is unfortunate because the outcome is usually results in someone's life getting ruined. I've never been called for jury duty, but if I was I'd like to think I'd take it seriously regardless of what the case was about. I started watching the show, but haven't finished it yet ... but this makes me want to finish it now >_>

YES, this is literally everything I've been waiting for, I'm so damn excited! That show has consumed my entire life, go watch it people what are you even doing

Jenna's description of how juror selection works is so spot on! Both times I've been summoned, I was so shocked by the shit people will share or openly admit to a room full of strangers when questioned by a judge, and a lot of times it seems very much like a way to try to get out of it. It actually becomes so frustrating!

So pumped you guys talked about Making a Murder! I am from Wisconsin and didn't even watch the documentary until I saw your Vlog saying you were watching it. I, obviously along with everyone else, do not know if Steven is innocent or guilty. After all the 18 years in spent in prison being wrongly convicted could have easily messed with his mind, but as a juror they are asked WITHOUT a reasonable doubt to convict someone. How he was found guilty is absolutely insane to me. A re-trial definitely needs to happen. Love you guys! You are both so incredibly honest and intelligent.

Brb binge watching the series before I finish this podcast 👍🏻

because of the podcast i remembered to fill out the juror questionaire i might have coming up so thanks guys

I also attended a public high school in Los Angeles , and during our senior year we did learn about jury duty, tax forms, retirement funds, etc.

I definitely need to have a mock trial for my future high school students. Thanks for the idea and giving more perspective on the show.

I don't think anyone can say, with absolute certainty, that he's guilty or not guilty. I don't even think that's important right now. They HAVE to assume that you're not guilty if they can't find enough evidence. And they haven't found enough evidence. Not even close to it. But it is fun to play devil's advocate. I also agree with Jenna, that it's unacceptable for the jury and probably the judge to come into that courtroom with so much bias and already formed opinions. And the fact that the more aggressive, stubborn jurors basically manipulated the other jurors to find him guilty. You just can't have weak jurors like that. And wow, are you kidding me!? People in the USA don't like jury duty? I'd be all over that shit lol But the jury isn't the only one to blame. The police did and covered up so much shit as well. And of course Steven isn't a saint, but there's just not enough evidence to put him in jail. It's not fair. If you guys want to watch something similar, I'd recommend Th Staircase. It's pretty dope. Paradise Lost, as well. It's about the West Memphis Three. A shame you guys didn't mention the absolutely awesome lawyers Steven had. Dean Strang slaysss life af

Jenna and Julien! If you haven't watched 12 angry men, watch it now! It was all I could think about when you were talking about jury duty. It is pretty old, from the 60's I believe, but it is one of the best movies I have ever seen! Watch it now, now, now!

I love your serious discussions like this! You guys are so intelligent and nice to listen to. I really like hearing what y'all have to say about stuff like this.

I got this notification and was soooo happy you guys are doing a podcast on this!!!!! I'm going to finish this podcast after work today eeeekkkkkk!

There's this cop who is a friend of my dad's who has to deal with the drunk and mostly under-aged college kids who wake up in alleys or whatever. We live in Colorado, and he's from Australia and has a THICK accent. So he'll go and wake them up and be like " hey, do you know where you are" and shit like that in his really thick accent making the kids think they woke up in Australia or some shit. I think some humor like that in cops is ok since he's dealing with hammered college kids, but certain things shouldnt be acceptable in cops like biased opinions. If you cant throw away your opinions and just find the evidence, you shouldn't be qualified to be a cop. Or at least you shouldn't be allowed to work on that case if it is on a personal level.

I am having a very hard time believing that a man who spent 18 years in jail would commit such a heinous crime just to be put in jail again. I don't think he's that stupid to commit and murder and jeopardize $36 million. I have so many thoughts and feelings about this case, just the fact that both Coburn and Lenz were the ones that found most of the physical evidence pointing to Avery should be suspicious enough, especially since they were both named in the $36 million wrongful conviction suit.

Been listening to these since #1 and they get better every time! Love you guys

I have never been more excited to see a video in my sub box 😍 So many feelings about this documentary!!!!!

Is it just me or does Jenna look exceptionally good here.

Forever waiting for the podcast where they actually time the music to their singing in the beginning :D haha

I really agree with the points you guys made! I love the podcasts and appreciate you guys using your social standing to spread awareness about things that are really important for people to be aware of!! thank you

PREACH! Jenna talking about jury duty is exactly what I tell my friends who complain. I get picked and I'm stoked, ready to do this even though I'm sure it'll be a petty drug crime because of the area I am in, but the case always gets settled out of court. I have yet to actually sit on a jury and I am so down for it. I really want to know inside details on cases and that's a big part of why, but if I were to need a trial of my peers some day, I pray they are there with the mindset that there's nowhere else as important to be in that moment when a person's freedom, and potentially life, are at risk.

Even if he did have to go to jail the second time, they’d still owe him $36M

FETUS JULIEN ALERT. Love the new hair man, but I also loved the beard. Hopefully the short hair and beard combination will come around again in the future. And Jenna guuurl you look beautiful in this video with just your eyebrows done / minimal makeup!

I am so glad you guys are talking about this it's an amazing documentary

This documentary has literally changed my life! I'm about to watch this podcast haven't yet watched it but I'm so glad that this is getting more and more recognition. Let's hope they get a re-trial!

The interrogation of the nephew straight up pissed me off. I'm not being anything but genuinely concerned when I say that Brendan might have mental disadvantages. He spoke in simplistic terms, he was with drawn from the situation entirely, like emotionally, and that's what I have a problem with. Those who don't have the ability to express themselves clearly and eloquently fall under the risk of what happened to Brendan. They put things in his mouth, they put him under mass amounts of stress, they didn't diagnose him, they took advantage of him. Prison isn't a joke, guys. Shit goes down in the cells that I can't begin to imagine, and I probably don't know about. What I can say is that since Brendan did show signs that he was on the Autistic Spectrum, no one spoke up for him and said, "Hey, this isn't right."

Rewatching all the podcasts. 😭

I love watching your opinions on subjects. You both always seem to see both sides and can back both sides up, it's fun to watch.

I love that you guys film these. I havent ever been a huge fan of podcasts but I LOVE these. Keep up the great content guys:)

Jenna is like a fricken majestic unicorn, omfg!!!

I'm not trying to be all nit picky but I loved the way you butchered saying Manitowoc. I'm sure the way you said it was how Indians said it when they named it or whatever but we Wisconsinites say it with the emphasis on "man". idk how to describe it but I love you guys. That's the most important part, right?

love watching you guys discuss topics you are passionate about.....i agree with all of this

Jenna talking about jury duty reminded me that I need to respond to my notice asap 😆 Thanks for the reminder girl!

the cousins who found the car said there were no license plates and then used the # on the driver side front window. ... where did the plates come from?!

Jenna is stupid amounts of cute

I've never clicked faster on a video ever. I finished watching making a murderer about a week or two ago and i was OBSESSED! I'm so glad you guys are doing this (yes im that excited im commenting before ive even watched it) love you two!

YESSS! I'm so excited to hear y'all talk about this!

Who's the little kid sitting next to Jenna?

When i looked at the thumbnail I was like " Where's julien and who is that"

YES! Perfect timing for me as I just finished the show 😇 love you guys

You guys are amazing

I'm confused, Jenna has 16 mil subs. But there podcast has 200,000...wtf.

This series was so sad to me. It reminded me that anyone can be railroaded if they don't have the money for a good defense. While this documentary may be one-sided, I think his treatment during the process was definitely suspect.

This is greatness. I've been debating to watch this, and definitely going to make it a point to. I know I'll be crazy over this show, that's exactly why I haven't watched yet. So glad to see you guys this 2016, best of wishes to you guys!

So happy your doing this podcast!! IT was such an amazing and frustrating documentary to watch

The american system got me fucked up, they have to prove there innocence while in Canada you need to prove you're guilt (which also has its own problems.) My blood is still boiling from watching this series.

Is your podcast not on iTunes anymore? I tried to unsubscribe and sunscribe again, but you last three episodes haven't shown up in the iphone podcast app. Looooove your podcast. And you!

I love you guys, I wish I had more time in my life to listen to EVERY podcast! just wanted to say. Thanks, keep it up!

I was dying at my work desk guys 😂 Jenna's giggles gave me the giggles. And Julian slaying those segways for sponsors. Fire

It's not always about the "laziness", it's about the fact that some people make $15 an hr and support themselves all on their own! I can't pay bills when I lose a week of that money! Jury duty only pays $7.25 an hr! So, it's not about laziness all the time, it's about the pay and how I can't not pay my bills because of a case.

Might seem odd, but like, I've always wanted to be on Jury Duty

Jenna, I've heard you talk about your time as a juror in a few videos and you really have opened my eyes to the importance of caring about being on a jury. I know it's sappy, but the next time I'm called to jury duty i will definitely try harder to be selected!

Absolutely love this podcast and I watched that show and it's insane how the whole trial and case went! He deserves a new trial and jury along with that.

omg please you guys!!! watch Soaked in Bleach on Netflix and its sorta the same feel do a podcast on that and it will make my life!!!!!! pleaseeee!!!!

nice podcast!! i think someone's nose was whistling the whole time though

Every week you both blow my mind. You're so intelligent and produce great material. Keep up the good work!

My history teacher actually set up like a mock trial so that we could learn how the judicial system worked. He typed out a scenario and he appointed jobs to students (defense lawyer, state attorney, judge, jurors, victims, witnesses, ect.) the students that did not have a "role" were allowed to mention arguments about either side to sway the jury (there were even sides so it would be fair) and honestly I loved it. It was like a week long and I swear from the scholars of the class to the high as a kite kids were sooooo into it.

Julien's baby face 😍

They didn't find the key until months later.

I love this. Serial was my life this last week

been watching the both of you for years on your individual channels. you guys are so cute! love you

As a person who lives in Wisconsin and has traveled to Manitowoc county The series has a very negative bias to it. I agree 100% that the system is wrong in the way the jury was pick and the trial was run but the series seems to down completely on Wisconsin. It seems to be so one sided. But it's a Netflix series and its purpose is to make money and to grab attention which it did and has done. It however is just too one sided.

Jenna, you look so cute with that knot and headpohnes on!

One of the things that made me the angriest was the interrogation of the nephew. I'm so glad you mentioned that, because that was so sick to watch. And thank you for talking about the jury, I've been waiting for a while for someone to talk about that aspect. I just rewatched the series after falling down a true crime rabbit hole, and it's so interesting to hear more people talk about this.

I'm from Melbourne, Australia and part of our Year 12 English curriculum was to study the play 'Twelve Angry Men' where we basically learned about and heavily analysed what a jury was & what it would potentially be like to be a juror. It was so interesting but I never realised the importance of studying that play until watching Making a Murderer and also this podcast. You guys should read it, it's quite good and will give you wicked insight into being part of a jury (despite it being fiction). Loved the podcast, as always! x

Just sayin don't throw the Manitwoc Police Department in this conversation because they had nothing to do with this case. The Sheriffs department and the police department are completely separate. Only the Sheriffs department is to blame, not the Police department.

I want to know how a jury could find Steve not guilty of mutilating a corpse, but could find Brendan guilty of it... If they were really going off of the "confession" then they needed to believe all of it or none of it and in terms of all of it, Brendan said he didn't put the body in the fire, that Steve did, yet Steve was found innocent of that and Brendan wasnt... How does that work?

Also I loved the twenty questions thing, it's really funny, you guys should do it again!x

Happy new years guys! I'm so glad your talking about this because, when you talk about subjects like this, it makes so much more sense. Again happy new years Jenna and Julien. And a happy new years to Kermit, Peach, and Marbles!! - Monique P.s. I just realized you shaved your beard/goatee off. It gives you a different look with your new hair style. With your beard/goatee you look much older. Around Jenna's age.